CDI street turbo compound
CDI street turbo compound
12-13-2016, 01:54 AM
#1
Need help for street turbo compound on OM612. Wanted boost is 3,5 bar from 2000-2500 RPM to 5000 RPM.
For HP i thought about GTB2260VK or HE221W. I've choosen HE221W because it flows more (max about 38 lb/min) than 2260.
LP is HX40. I never dealed with compound setup so i need your help guys.
My plan was PR 2 from LP and PR 2.25 from HP. But according to my calculations HE221W compressor will choke (out of comp map) past 4000 RPM. Is it critical and i should bypass HP and try to get about 3 bar from LP alone at 4000-5000 RPM range?
And what about control? Which control method preferable: maintaining reasonable EGP, or maintaining boost at each stage (HX40 wastegate opens when boost in LP stage more then 1 bar and HP wastegate opens when final boost more then 3.5 bar, but in this case will be impossible to get 3 bar boost from LP at 4000-5000 rpm because wastegate opens at 1 bar...)
This post was last modified: 12-13-2016, 01:56 AM by Rom1.
Hi everyone
Need help for street turbo compound on OM612. Wanted boost is 3,5 bar from 2000-2500 RPM to 5000 RPM.
For HP i thought about GTB2260VK or HE221W. I've choosen HE221W because it flows more (max about 38 lb/min) than 2260.
LP is HX40. I never dealed with compound setup so i need your help guys.
My plan was PR 2 from LP and PR 2.25 from HP. But according to my calculations HE221W compressor will choke (out of comp map) past 4000 RPM. Is it critical and i should bypass HP and try to get about 3 bar from LP alone at 4000-5000 RPM range?
And what about control? Which control method preferable: maintaining reasonable EGP, or maintaining boost at each stage (HX40 wastegate opens when boost in LP stage more then 1 bar and HP wastegate opens when final boost more then 3.5 bar, but in this case will be impossible to get 3 bar boost from LP at 4000-5000 rpm because wastegate opens at 1 bar...)
12-13-2016, 03:50 AM
#2
![[Image: 3964d1406450608-kevins-compound-sequenti...-seq29.jpg]](http://www.homemadeturbo.com/attachments/forced-induction-7/3964d1406450608-kevins-compound-sequential-twin-turbo-design-seq29.jpg)
What you need to do is
having #1 , #2 , #4 closed and #3 open at low load / low RPM
in the transition low - high, #1 opens, #4 opens a little bit..
At full throttle, #1 and #4 are full open, # 3 closed, and # 2 depends on how big the big turbo is... It is not visible in the drawing, but Turbo 2 must be bigger than Turbo 1.
(Приветствую pусскоязычного форумчанина! )
This post was last modified: 12-13-2016, 03:52 AM by Evgeniy1987.
Evgeniy1987
12-13-2016, 03:50 AM #2As far as I know, Compounding works like this:
What you need to do is
having #1 , #2 , #4 closed and #3 open at low load / low RPM
in the transition low - high, #1 opens, #4 opens a little bit..
At full throttle, #1 and #4 are full open, # 3 closed, and # 2 depends on how big the big turbo is... It is not visible in the drawing, but Turbo 2 must be bigger than Turbo 1.
(Приветствую pусскоязычного форумчанина! )
12-13-2016, 05:28 AM
#3
Like on this pic, but should i use bypass with check valve or not...
And maybe someone have expirience in compounding similar turbos, aspecially He221W, on OM605, 612 or similar to share experience, maybe i'm wrong and HE221W can flow till 5000RPM with zero problems?
И тебе привет)
This post was last modified: 12-13-2016, 07:28 AM by Rom1.
Thx for reply. It's very complicated setup on this picture i think)) Basic compound setup is when exhaust goes to HP, then from HP to LP and then to atmosphere, and air goes to LP, then directly to HP and then in engine, i mean no bypassing HP. LP boost multiply by HP all the time. But in my case HP compressor can choke LP at 4000+ rpm. So question is should i bypass HP compressor side at 4000+ RPMs, or enough to bypass HP turbine with big WG and let LP boost through HP compressor.
Like on this pic, but should i use bypass with check valve or not...
And maybe someone have expirience in compounding similar turbos, aspecially He221W, on OM605, 612 or similar to share experience, maybe i'm wrong and HE221W can flow till 5000RPM with zero problems?
И тебе привет)
12-13-2016, 07:34 AM
#4
You should not try to fill the engine at high loads through the small compressor housing of the HP, I think that it will be a major flow impedance for the LP.
Even more: actually, the engine MUST choke because of the HP at high loads, because if it does not, the HP is chosen too big. The HP must be small, LP must be big.
HP is too small for high loads, LP is too big for low loads. The valves do the trick
Unfortunately, I am not experienced... only studied .. let's wait for answers from guys with experience
This post was last modified: 12-13-2016, 07:35 AM by Evgeniy1987.
Evgeniy1987
12-13-2016, 07:34 AM #4Well, these bypasses are exactly for the reasons you are now coping with: the (small) HP will choke at high loads...
You should not try to fill the engine at high loads through the small compressor housing of the HP, I think that it will be a major flow impedance for the LP.
Even more: actually, the engine MUST choke because of the HP at high loads, because if it does not, the HP is chosen too big. The HP must be small, LP must be big.
HP is too small for high loads, LP is too big for low loads. The valves do the trick
Unfortunately, I am not experienced... only studied .. let's wait for answers from guys with experience
12-13-2016, 08:01 AM
#5
if you have time read this entire thread it explains a great deal with many examples. http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showth...p?t=216811
i have been working on a compound set up for a while and i am using a HE221w as my HP. the HX40 shouldn't be able to flow enough to totally choke the 221 the issue is the pr split between the two if you are running a electronic boost controller with a two channel wg output you should be able to drop the regulated pressure on the lp bypass gate and maintain the same manifold using the hp. the 221w has a wide map cantered around a pr of 3 below that the mass flow drops quickly however in compounds running the hp off the bottom right edge of the map is not a sudden choke it just becomes very inefficient. as for your set up what afr are you shooting for? what is the exact displacement and VE of the om612? and what are your calculated mass flow requirements maximum and minimum?
if you have time read this entire thread it explains a great deal with many examples. http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showth...p?t=216811
12-13-2016, 09:12 AM
#7
By the way Tuikku, thank you for your CDI-oriented posts on many forums, thanks to this i've started to learn my engine ECU and make software and hardware mods)
Tuikku, yes you are right about injectors. It was main problem, but Mr. Herlevi said what his biggest nozzles can provide about 200mm^3 fueling @ 1800 rail pressure. This is starting point. CR will be reduced to 15.5:1 or 16:1 by piston bowl machining. Also ARP or similar bolts for rods bearings. And stiffer valve springs. 722.6 will be strengthened too. Target is 400-450 smokeless hp. But car is almost my daily driver, i want to save driveability, i.e. good low end torque. That's why i desided to go with compound setup, for full boost from 2000 to 5000. But with this turbo combination i think i can get full boost only till 4000 rpm... I'm ready to go 3.5 bar 2000-4000 rpm and 3 bar 4000-5000 rpm from LP only, but in this case i need to bypass HP and make some difficult (for me) boost controlling. I also plan to use OF Gear 722.6 controller, it has wide boost controlling opportunities for compound, maybe it will help. I hope i can edit ECU myself.
By the way Tuikku, thank you for your CDI-oriented posts on many forums, thanks to this i've started to learn my engine ECU and make software and hardware mods)
12-13-2016, 09:46 AM
#8
(no offence against Russia, just my memories... I lived in St. Petersburg until 2001, I was 13 back then... )
Evgeniy1987
12-13-2016, 09:46 AM #8By the way, big respect for the intention of that build! I lived in Russia in the past, and as far as I know, "tuning" , especially such extreme, is not very common.. As I remember, Russians rather buy big cars that look expensive and drive aroud.. so, my respect!
(no offence against Russia, just my memories... I lived in St. Petersburg until 2001, I was 13 back then... )
12-13-2016, 10:00 AM
#9
(12-13-2016, 08:01 AM)R-3350 i have been working on a compound set up for a while and i am using a HE221w as my HP. the HX40 shouldn't be able to flow enough to totally choke the 221 the issue is the pr split between the two if you are running a electronic boost controller with a two channel wg output you should be able to drop the regulated pressure on the lp bypass gate and maintain the same manifold using the hp. the 221w has a wide map cantered around a pr of 3 below that the mass flow drops quickly however in compounds running the hp off the bottom right edge of the map is not a sudden choke it just becomes very inefficient. as for your set up what afr are you shooting for? what is the exact displacement and VE of the om612? and what are your calculated mass flow requirements maximum and minimum?
if you have time read this entire thread it explains a great deal with many examples. http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showth...p?t=216811
Thank you, i will read this thread. OM612 is 2685cc 4 valves per cylinders. I did not measured VE by MAF, only made simulation in Diesel-RK Net. Simulation may be not 100% accurate. AFR probably 18:1 at high rpm. And using not2fast.com turbo calculator i get this data
Columns are for 1000/1500/2000/2500/3000/3500/4000/4500/5000 rpm
![[Image: ca6f45c86f4f.png]](http://s019.radikal.ru/i626/1612/9d/ca6f45c86f4f.png)
here is flow in lb/min, EFF - compressor efficency in % for temperature calculations. Flow for HP calculated by formula flowHP=flowLP*sqrt(HPinletTemp/298/PRoutLP), for example for 5000rpm flowHP=52.89*sqrt(322/298/2)=38.88
HP flow numbers for 4500rpm and 5000rpm (red ones) are out of HE221W map.
These maps i used
HE221W
![[Image: HE221WCompressorMapfromCTTlbs-1.jpg]](http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a345/Alcaid/Jetta/HE221WCompressorMapfromCTTlbs-1.jpg)
HX40 (withou 127k rpm curve)
![[Image: hx40-b8584m.jpg]](http://www.dsmtuners.com/gallery/files/3/4/7/2/8/hx40-b8584m.jpg)
What do you suggest, not bother that HE221W out the map and push it 2.26 at 4500 and 5000? Worst thing i get is high temp out of compressor due to low efficency, compressor will survive it?
This post was last modified: 12-16-2016, 03:07 AM by Rom1.
(12-13-2016, 08:01 AM)R-3350 i have been working on a compound set up for a while and i am using a HE221w as my HP. the HX40 shouldn't be able to flow enough to totally choke the 221 the issue is the pr split between the two if you are running a electronic boost controller with a two channel wg output you should be able to drop the regulated pressure on the lp bypass gate and maintain the same manifold using the hp. the 221w has a wide map cantered around a pr of 3 below that the mass flow drops quickly however in compounds running the hp off the bottom right edge of the map is not a sudden choke it just becomes very inefficient. as for your set up what afr are you shooting for? what is the exact displacement and VE of the om612? and what are your calculated mass flow requirements maximum and minimum?
if you have time read this entire thread it explains a great deal with many examples. http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showth...p?t=216811
Thank you, i will read this thread. OM612 is 2685cc 4 valves per cylinders. I did not measured VE by MAF, only made simulation in Diesel-RK Net. Simulation may be not 100% accurate. AFR probably 18:1 at high rpm. And using not2fast.com turbo calculator i get this data
Columns are for 1000/1500/2000/2500/3000/3500/4000/4500/5000 rpm
here is flow in lb/min, EFF - compressor efficency in % for temperature calculations. Flow for HP calculated by formula flowHP=flowLP*sqrt(HPinletTemp/298/PRoutLP), for example for 5000rpm flowHP=52.89*sqrt(322/298/2)=38.88
HP flow numbers for 4500rpm and 5000rpm (red ones) are out of HE221W map.
These maps i used
HE221W
HX40 (withou 127k rpm curve)
What do you suggest, not bother that HE221W out the map and push it 2.26 at 4500 and 5000? Worst thing i get is high temp out of compressor due to low efficency, compressor will survive it?
12-13-2016, 10:32 AM
#10
(12-13-2016, 09:46 AM)Evgeniy1987 By the way, big respect for the intention of that build! I lived in Russia in the past, and as far as I know, "tuning" , especially such extreme, is not very common.. As I remember, Russians rather buy big cars that look expensive and drive aroud.. so, my respect!
(no offence against Russia, just my memories... I lived in St. Petersburg until 2001, I was 13 back then... )
Yes, i live in Novosibirsk and here is NO ONE know how to tune diesel engines. Maximum you can get ecu tune, but without individual remapping (standart tune from some European company). Here diesel=truck for most of people.
What about gasoline, here are many Japan cars, and tuning of Japan engines more or less common, as many tuning parts can be bought from Japan auctions.
But i happy with my diesel, aspecially if i'll get 400HP+)) Anyway it is very interesting process and i learn much.
(12-13-2016, 09:46 AM)Evgeniy1987 By the way, big respect for the intention of that build! I lived in Russia in the past, and as far as I know, "tuning" , especially such extreme, is not very common.. As I remember, Russians rather buy big cars that look expensive and drive aroud.. so, my respect!
(no offence against Russia, just my memories... I lived in St. Petersburg until 2001, I was 13 back then... )
Yes, i live in Novosibirsk and here is NO ONE know how to tune diesel engines. Maximum you can get ecu tune, but without individual remapping (standart tune from some European company). Here diesel=truck for most of people.
What about gasoline, here are many Japan cars, and tuning of Japan engines more or less common, as many tuning parts can be bought from Japan auctions.
But i happy with my diesel, aspecially if i'll get 400HP+)) Anyway it is very interesting process and i learn much.
12-13-2016, 01:07 PM
#11
the holset maps are not in conventional lbs/min or kg/sec units they use their own corrected units ( this link explains the conversion http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/how-to-...-s.362599/). the largest HX40 compressor can flow a maximum of around 68-71 lbs/min. im not sure which HX40 you have/are looking at at that is the HX40 "super". the other more common models vary some in capability but are around 60 lbs/min.
another thing to think about is while 18:1 is a good clean AFR the optimum thermodynamic conversion of chemical fuel energy to mechanical energy for diesel is around 16:1 to 17:1 so it might be simpler to run slightly less lean and drop your mass flow requirements for the compounds. if you plan on doing long term high output like land speed racing or driving at high speed (over 200kph) on the highway for a while then run lean. but for a fun street car you can run around 17:1 safely for short bursts without too much smoke or excessive egt. mind you im not as familiar with the CR Mercedes engines so idk what the smoke limits are.
now for the actual calculations. i ran it through the not2fast and the BW match bot and got significantly lower mass flow numbers on the HE221w than yours. running a pr of 2.3 at 5000 rpm and assuming a VE of 90% and a inlet temp of 25*C (both of which would be worse in reality) nets a mass flow of around 30 lbs/min. that is as it running as a single. in a compound set up the HP doesn't see the mass flow from the LP. it only sees the increased temp and a slight increase in shaft power requirements due to the increased density of the air its moving. if we just simply say you're going to run a PR of 2:1 on the LP then you can double the mass flow limit of the HP at the PR you want it to run to see what the total mass flow is going to be. this is a very rough estimate and not a final number but good for estimations. on the 221w @ PR of 2.3 this is around 34 lbs/min maximum double that to 68 lbs/min and you are at the edge of the capability of the HX40 "super" which can only flow that much at 2.5:1 PR or higher. i don't think you would want to run that much boost so i might look at a slightly larger LP turbo. i have been looking at the Borg Warner s300sxe s366 as a LP in compounding onto a 221w. they match each other in a compound set up as far as mass flow goes pretty well. i got slightly different numbers for the mass flow of your engine but working off of the highest it looks like you need a maximum of around 65 lbs/min of air through the LP this puts 32.5 through the 221w if the LP is @ PR of 2. however there is something to be said for running the LP at closer to a PR of 3 as the 221w is a particularly inefficient compressor. the more efficient you can make the total compression the less heat you will have to pull out in the IC. and then theres the issue of fitting multiple IC's and their plumbing for inter and after cooling.
anyways don't assume the calculations i did are correct this is just what i have gotten. it seems the set up you are aiming for is similar to mine. i am running an OM617 thus while i have more displacement im aiming for a higher boost and have to deal with lower rpm and VE so the numbers work out similar. if you want to play with the not2fast calculator you can simulate the compound set up by feeding it an altitude of -20500 which puts the inlet pressure right at 2 times atmospheric as if it were the outlet of the LP @ PR 2.
good luck on your project hope it works well. Novosibirsk is a nice place never spent much time there just passed through once. i have family staying in Vladivostok and Harbin and might go that way on the trans Siberian express to visit some day.
i looked at the numbers and theres a few points to consider.
the holset maps are not in conventional lbs/min or kg/sec units they use their own corrected units ( this link explains the conversion http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/how-to-...-s.362599/). the largest HX40 compressor can flow a maximum of around 68-71 lbs/min. im not sure which HX40 you have/are looking at at that is the HX40 "super". the other more common models vary some in capability but are around 60 lbs/min.
another thing to think about is while 18:1 is a good clean AFR the optimum thermodynamic conversion of chemical fuel energy to mechanical energy for diesel is around 16:1 to 17:1 so it might be simpler to run slightly less lean and drop your mass flow requirements for the compounds. if you plan on doing long term high output like land speed racing or driving at high speed (over 200kph) on the highway for a while then run lean. but for a fun street car you can run around 17:1 safely for short bursts without too much smoke or excessive egt. mind you im not as familiar with the CR Mercedes engines so idk what the smoke limits are.
now for the actual calculations. i ran it through the not2fast and the BW match bot and got significantly lower mass flow numbers on the HE221w than yours. running a pr of 2.3 at 5000 rpm and assuming a VE of 90% and a inlet temp of 25*C (both of which would be worse in reality) nets a mass flow of around 30 lbs/min. that is as it running as a single. in a compound set up the HP doesn't see the mass flow from the LP. it only sees the increased temp and a slight increase in shaft power requirements due to the increased density of the air its moving. if we just simply say you're going to run a PR of 2:1 on the LP then you can double the mass flow limit of the HP at the PR you want it to run to see what the total mass flow is going to be. this is a very rough estimate and not a final number but good for estimations. on the 221w @ PR of 2.3 this is around 34 lbs/min maximum double that to 68 lbs/min and you are at the edge of the capability of the HX40 "super" which can only flow that much at 2.5:1 PR or higher. i don't think you would want to run that much boost so i might look at a slightly larger LP turbo. i have been looking at the Borg Warner s300sxe s366 as a LP in compounding onto a 221w. they match each other in a compound set up as far as mass flow goes pretty well. i got slightly different numbers for the mass flow of your engine but working off of the highest it looks like you need a maximum of around 65 lbs/min of air through the LP this puts 32.5 through the 221w if the LP is @ PR of 2. however there is something to be said for running the LP at closer to a PR of 3 as the 221w is a particularly inefficient compressor. the more efficient you can make the total compression the less heat you will have to pull out in the IC. and then theres the issue of fitting multiple IC's and their plumbing for inter and after cooling.
anyways don't assume the calculations i did are correct this is just what i have gotten. it seems the set up you are aiming for is similar to mine. i am running an OM617 thus while i have more displacement im aiming for a higher boost and have to deal with lower rpm and VE so the numbers work out similar. if you want to play with the not2fast calculator you can simulate the compound set up by feeding it an altitude of -20500 which puts the inlet pressure right at 2 times atmospheric as if it were the outlet of the LP @ PR 2.
good luck on your project hope it works well. Novosibirsk is a nice place never spent much time there just passed through once. i have family staying in Vladivostok and Harbin and might go that way on the trans Siberian express to visit some day.
12-14-2016, 01:17 AM
#12
(12-13-2016, 01:07 PM)R-3350 i looked at the numbers and theres a few points to consider.I really appreciate your help, thank you. For 4.5 PR, 90% VE and 5000rpm we have 63.47 lb/min.
If we get 2.0 PR from LP, it should make 2 PR at 63.47 lb/min, and then 63.47/2=31.75 lb/min for HP at 2.3 PR, right?
In this case 63.47 too much for HX40 @ 2 PR, as you said. But 31.75 @ 2.3 PR still good for HE221W.
Then i need bigger LP. Unfortunately BW S366SXE are rare and expensive (1100$+) here. I can get HX50 or HX 55 Holsets, but i have no accurate map for it. On many sources HX50's and HX55's maps are the same. One of them here. According to this map, if it have right corrected mass flow, i can get 2 PR @ 63.47 lbm, but point on its limit. But VE 90% is to much for 5000 rpm, so i think its OK. In this way i can make HX50+HE221W.
But here is one more thing. As i understand, air temp important parameter. For example at 85% IC efficiency i have 63.47 lb/min, but if IC eff is 75% i get 59.06 lb/min. How important to have interstage cooler, what do you think?
That do you think about HE221W and HX50 combination?
This post was last modified: 12-14-2016, 01:20 AM by Rom1.
(12-13-2016, 01:07 PM)R-3350 i looked at the numbers and theres a few points to consider.I really appreciate your help, thank you. For 4.5 PR, 90% VE and 5000rpm we have 63.47 lb/min.
If we get 2.0 PR from LP, it should make 2 PR at 63.47 lb/min, and then 63.47/2=31.75 lb/min for HP at 2.3 PR, right?
In this case 63.47 too much for HX40 @ 2 PR, as you said. But 31.75 @ 2.3 PR still good for HE221W.
Then i need bigger LP. Unfortunately BW S366SXE are rare and expensive (1100$+) here. I can get HX50 or HX 55 Holsets, but i have no accurate map for it. On many sources HX50's and HX55's maps are the same. One of them here. According to this map, if it have right corrected mass flow, i can get 2 PR @ 63.47 lbm, but point on its limit. But VE 90% is to much for 5000 rpm, so i think its OK. In this way i can make HX50+HE221W.
But here is one more thing. As i understand, air temp important parameter. For example at 85% IC efficiency i have 63.47 lb/min, but if IC eff is 75% i get 59.06 lb/min. How important to have interstage cooler, what do you think?
That do you think about HE221W and HX50 combination?
12-14-2016, 04:50 AM
#13
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Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
+400HP is doable with single modern VNT turbo, it will save you a lot of trouble since it will be controlled by stock ECU. At 3Bar you have ideally 2100mg of air per stroke which in smokefree world translate to 120mg of fuel injected==around 145mm3==very coarse guess is it will make 280kW which is 375HP. And that is fairly safe with single turbo and you still have much of fuel let and turbo can go higher pressure, so 400+ no problem with hybrid ball bearing VNT of last gen. Intercooler must be of very efficient water-air type.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
12-14-2016, 05:53 AM
#15
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Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
Well last gen ball bearing with billet wheel. I have seen local BMW E46 330xD (former 204HP) with dynoed 400ish HP and it actualy lasted until tuner sold it so that turbo held pretty good, it was hybrid but I would need to do hard search to find what size it was.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
12-14-2016, 06:12 AM
#16
(12-14-2016, 05:53 AM)starynovy Well last gen ball bearing with billet wheel. I have seen local BMW E46 330xD (former 204HP) with dynoed 400ish HP and it actualy lasted until tuner sold it so that turbo held pretty good, it was hybrid but I would need to do hard search to find what size it was.
Thank you, i will try to search info about ball bearing big frame VNTs. But for now plan is compound, at least until i figure out which single can make similar job. Btw, what do you think, this engine will survive 3.5 bar for long with 15.5:1 CR and hard rod bolts?
(12-14-2016, 05:53 AM)starynovy Well last gen ball bearing with billet wheel. I have seen local BMW E46 330xD (former 204HP) with dynoed 400ish HP and it actualy lasted until tuner sold it so that turbo held pretty good, it was hybrid but I would need to do hard search to find what size it was.
Thank you, i will try to search info about ball bearing big frame VNTs. But for now plan is compound, at least until i figure out which single can make similar job. Btw, what do you think, this engine will survive 3.5 bar for long with 15.5:1 CR and hard rod bolts?
12-14-2016, 06:17 AM
#17
(12-14-2016, 05:25 AM)Rom1(12-14-2016, 04:50 AM)starynovy +400HP is doable with single modern VNT turboWhich single VNT can make 4+ PR? Something like gtb3576klnrv? Do you know similar setup with VNT and 3 bar+?
Ford 6.0 Powerstroke turbo, Garrett GT37xx. VNT and runs 30psi on the stock tune, capable of close to 500 horsepower on the Powerstroke with different injectors and a tune.
Baldur Gislason
(12-14-2016, 05:25 AM)Rom1(12-14-2016, 04:50 AM)starynovy +400HP is doable with single modern VNT turboWhich single VNT can make 4+ PR? Something like gtb3576klnrv? Do you know similar setup with VNT and 3 bar+?
Ford 6.0 Powerstroke turbo, Garrett GT37xx. VNT and runs 30psi on the stock tune, capable of close to 500 horsepower on the Powerstroke with different injectors and a tune.
Baldur Gislason
12-14-2016, 06:15 PM
#18
as for the inter and after-cooling it is advisable if possible to fit both however space is always an issue with compounds. something to think on might be to fit a small water to air as the intercooler so it can be tucked in wherever theres room and use a very large water to air or air to air as the after-cooler. something else might be to inject water meth between stages to help increase the mass flow along with keeping cylinder temps and carbon build up controlled.
the 221w and a HX50 is a proven set up. Black Smoke Racing are running this set up for their om648 (i think its a HX50 could be a 52). i don't know the exact characteristics they're getting from it but they seem to like it so far.
as for the inter and after-cooling it is advisable if possible to fit both however space is always an issue with compounds. something to think on might be to fit a small water to air as the intercooler so it can be tucked in wherever theres room and use a very large water to air or air to air as the after-cooler. something else might be to inject water meth between stages to help increase the mass flow along with keeping cylinder temps and carbon build up controlled.
12-14-2016, 10:15 PM
#19
(12-14-2016, 06:15 PM)R-3350 the 221w and a HX50 is a proven set up. Black Smoke Racing are running this set up for their om648 (i think its a HX50 could be a 52). i don't know the exact characteristics they're getting from it but they seem to like it so far.
as for the inter and after-cooling it is advisable if possible to fit both however space is always an issue with compounds. something to think on might be to fit a small water to air as the intercooler so it can be tucked in wherever theres room and use a very large water to air or air to air as the after-cooler. something else might be to inject water meth between stages to help increase the mass flow along with keeping cylinder temps and carbon build up controlled.
As i understand from Black Smoke Racing blog, they control boost pressure only by opening HP WG after 1.5 bar and HX50 is bypassing HE221w at high revs, so not "true" compound, more sequential. And no boost controlling over stages. Maybe they changed boost controlling, i dont know. But from other side their target is boost at WOT, so they need maximum possible from this setup and dont need boost controlling for low and medium load applications.
And they have one cylinder more and 1000 working rpms more than i plan, so interesting how this setup will works for me)
How necessary external wastegate for HP? And if i need external WG, should i block internal HE221W wastegate or use both internal and external?
(12-14-2016, 06:17 AM)baldur(12-14-2016, 05:25 AM)Rom1(12-14-2016, 04:50 AM)starynovy +400HP is doable with single modern VNT turboWhich single VNT can make 4+ PR? Something like gtb3576klnrv? Do you know similar setup with VNT and 3 bar+?
Ford 6.0 Powerstroke turbo, Garrett GT37xx. VNT and runs 30psi on the stock tune, capable of close to 500 horsepower on the Powerstroke with different injectors and a tune.
This turbo could be interesting but pretty uncommon swap. I did not find info about it's performance on tuned Powerstroke engine. And did not find real experience of swapping this turbo to other engines.
This post was last modified: 12-14-2016, 10:18 PM by Rom1.
(12-14-2016, 06:15 PM)R-3350 the 221w and a HX50 is a proven set up. Black Smoke Racing are running this set up for their om648 (i think its a HX50 could be a 52). i don't know the exact characteristics they're getting from it but they seem to like it so far.
as for the inter and after-cooling it is advisable if possible to fit both however space is always an issue with compounds. something to think on might be to fit a small water to air as the intercooler so it can be tucked in wherever theres room and use a very large water to air or air to air as the after-cooler. something else might be to inject water meth between stages to help increase the mass flow along with keeping cylinder temps and carbon build up controlled.
As i understand from Black Smoke Racing blog, they control boost pressure only by opening HP WG after 1.5 bar and HX50 is bypassing HE221w at high revs, so not "true" compound, more sequential. And no boost controlling over stages. Maybe they changed boost controlling, i dont know. But from other side their target is boost at WOT, so they need maximum possible from this setup and dont need boost controlling for low and medium load applications.
And they have one cylinder more and 1000 working rpms more than i plan, so interesting how this setup will works for me)
How necessary external wastegate for HP? And if i need external WG, should i block internal HE221W wastegate or use both internal and external?
(12-14-2016, 06:17 AM)baldur(12-14-2016, 05:25 AM)Rom1(12-14-2016, 04:50 AM)starynovy +400HP is doable with single modern VNT turboWhich single VNT can make 4+ PR? Something like gtb3576klnrv? Do you know similar setup with VNT and 3 bar+?
Ford 6.0 Powerstroke turbo, Garrett GT37xx. VNT and runs 30psi on the stock tune, capable of close to 500 horsepower on the Powerstroke with different injectors and a tune.
This turbo could be interesting but pretty uncommon swap. I did not find info about it's performance on tuned Powerstroke engine. And did not find real experience of swapping this turbo to other engines.
12-15-2016, 08:57 AM
#20
I have done many ~400hp, 3L engines with single vnt, many.
Garrett gt2359 hybrid version from OM613 is suitable and easy to fit.
AMG turbine + orig size billet compressor with extented tip will do the job.
2,5-2.6bar boost in 3L engine, yours need ~3bar.
Backpressure tells when the compressor is in max, ~1bar more backpressure is still ok.
.
I have done many ~400hp, 3L engines with single vnt, many.
Garrett gt2359 hybrid version from OM613 is suitable and easy to fit.
AMG turbine + orig size billet compressor with extented tip will do the job.
2,5-2.6bar boost in 3L engine, yours need ~3bar.
Backpressure tells when the compressor is in max, ~1bar more backpressure is still ok.
12-15-2016, 09:53 AM
#21
(12-15-2016, 08:57 AM)tuikku .
I have done many ~400hp, 3L engines with single vnt, many.
Garrett gt2359 hybrid version from OM613 is suitable and easy to fit.
AMG turbine + orig size billet compressor with extented tip will do the job.
2,5-2.6bar boost in 3L engine, yours need ~3bar.
Backpressure tells when the compressor is in max, ~1bar more backpressure is still ok.
What hp and boost stock om613 turbo is capable of on om606? Have you tried this setup?
(12-15-2016, 08:57 AM)tuikku .
I have done many ~400hp, 3L engines with single vnt, many.
Garrett gt2359 hybrid version from OM613 is suitable and easy to fit.
AMG turbine + orig size billet compressor with extented tip will do the job.
2,5-2.6bar boost in 3L engine, yours need ~3bar.
Backpressure tells when the compressor is in max, ~1bar more backpressure is still ok.
What hp and boost stock om613 turbo is capable of on om606? Have you tried this setup?
12-15-2016, 11:44 PM
#22
(12-15-2016, 08:57 AM)tuikku .
I have done many ~400hp, 3L engines with single vnt, many.
Garrett gt2359 hybrid version from OM613 is suitable and easy to fit.
AMG turbine + orig size billet compressor with extented tip will do the job.
2,5-2.6bar boost in 3L engine, yours need ~3bar.
Backpressure tells when the compressor is in max, ~1bar more backpressure is still ok.
Compressor wheel 6+6 or GTX-style 11 blade?
C30 with this turbo have about 400 hp at 4200rpm i suppose, because it is auto trans shift pount, so i can make same hp revving a little higher. If GT2359 hybrid can make 2.5 bar @ 4200rpm in 3.0 it can make same boost at 4600-4800rpm in 2.7
This post was last modified: 12-16-2016, 12:09 AM by Rom1.
(12-15-2016, 08:57 AM)tuikku .
I have done many ~400hp, 3L engines with single vnt, many.
Garrett gt2359 hybrid version from OM613 is suitable and easy to fit.
AMG turbine + orig size billet compressor with extented tip will do the job.
2,5-2.6bar boost in 3L engine, yours need ~3bar.
Backpressure tells when the compressor is in max, ~1bar more backpressure is still ok.
Compressor wheel 6+6 or GTX-style 11 blade?
C30 with this turbo have about 400 hp at 4200rpm i suppose, because it is auto trans shift pount, so i can make same hp revving a little higher. If GT2359 hybrid can make 2.5 bar @ 4200rpm in 3.0 it can make same boost at 4600-4800rpm in 2.7
12-16-2016, 02:30 AM
#23
http://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,28781.0.html
I used this and not2fast calculator and one excel calculator to know my flow numbers and then picked up the turbos and they seem to work nicely together on a 606.
Here is good info about the calculations
http://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,28781.0.html
I used this and not2fast calculator and one excel calculator to know my flow numbers and then picked up the turbos and they seem to work nicely together on a 606.
12-16-2016, 03:28 AM
#24
(12-16-2016, 02:30 AM)Sultzi Here is good info about the calculations
http://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,28781.0.html
I used this and not2fast calculator and one excel calculator to know my flow numbers and then picked up the turbos and they seem to work nicely together on a 606.
Yes, i used equation like in this FAQ, and got results that in table that i posted earlier. And this results is reason of this thread. Because even with interstage 75% eff cooler HP flow at 4500 and 5000rpm out of map HE221W (marked red).I dont want bigger HP because of poor low-end torque, so i started to think is it critical or not, should i bypass HP at 4k+ rpm or not. Now i think that bypassing is not necessary because i doubt that i can control boost ib this case (if i can it going to be overcomplicated boost control).
Which turbos did you choose and in which proportions you split PR between stages? (if not a secret)
Also i'm looking at big VNTs, but good units for my target are very hard to find (gtb3576klnrv or BW S200V).
(12-16-2016, 02:30 AM)Sultzi Here is good info about the calculations
http://vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,28781.0.html
I used this and not2fast calculator and one excel calculator to know my flow numbers and then picked up the turbos and they seem to work nicely together on a 606.
Yes, i used equation like in this FAQ, and got results that in table that i posted earlier. And this results is reason of this thread. Because even with interstage 75% eff cooler HP flow at 4500 and 5000rpm out of map HE221W (marked red).I dont want bigger HP because of poor low-end torque, so i started to think is it critical or not, should i bypass HP at 4k+ rpm or not. Now i think that bypassing is not necessary because i doubt that i can control boost ib this case (if i can it going to be overcomplicated boost control).
Which turbos did you choose and in which proportions you split PR between stages? (if not a secret)
Also i'm looking at big VNTs, but good units for my target are very hard to find (gtb3576klnrv or BW S200V).
12-16-2016, 06:47 AM
#25
HP is MasterPower R545-2 (54mm compressor and 59mm turbine and 9cm2 housing)
LP is MasterPower MP6568 (65mm compressor, 68mm turbine and 1.05 ar housing)
I have two 60mm wastegates controlling the turbos. At the moment i'm driving "only" 2,7bar which gives pr around 1.85 on the HP and 2 on the LP. Still working with the wastegates, will give them a more look next summer. Seems to be enough power for winter now anyway.
I have these:
HP is MasterPower R545-2 (54mm compressor and 59mm turbine and 9cm2 housing)
LP is MasterPower MP6568 (65mm compressor, 68mm turbine and 1.05 ar housing)
I have two 60mm wastegates controlling the turbos. At the moment i'm driving "only" 2,7bar which gives pr around 1.85 on the HP and 2 on the LP. Still working with the wastegates, will give them a more look next summer. Seems to be enough power for winter now anyway.
12-16-2016, 03:40 PM
#26
(12-15-2016, 09:53 AM)erx(12-15-2016, 08:57 AM)tuikku .
I have done many ~400hp, 3L engines with single vnt, many.
Garrett gt2359 hybrid version from OM613 is suitable and easy to fit.
AMG turbine + orig size billet compressor with extented tip will do the job.
2,5-2.6bar boost in 3L engine, yours need ~3bar.
Backpressure tells when the compressor is in max, ~1bar more backpressure is still ok.
What hp and boost stock om613 turbo is capable of on om606? Have you tried this setup?
No, I have not.
Those engines do not interest me at all.
(12-15-2016, 09:53 AM)erx(12-15-2016, 08:57 AM)tuikku .
I have done many ~400hp, 3L engines with single vnt, many.
Garrett gt2359 hybrid version from OM613 is suitable and easy to fit.
AMG turbine + orig size billet compressor with extented tip will do the job.
2,5-2.6bar boost in 3L engine, yours need ~3bar.
Backpressure tells when the compressor is in max, ~1bar more backpressure is still ok.
What hp and boost stock om613 turbo is capable of on om606? Have you tried this setup?
No, I have not.
Those engines do not interest me at all.
12-16-2016, 03:48 PM
#27
(12-15-2016, 11:44 PM)Rom1(12-15-2016, 08:57 AM)tuikku .
I have done many ~400hp, 3L engines with single vnt, many.
Garrett gt2359 hybrid version from OM613 is suitable and easy to fit.
AMG turbine + orig size billet compressor with extented tip will do the job.
2,5-2.6bar boost in 3L engine, yours need ~3bar.
Backpressure tells when the compressor is in max, ~1bar more backpressure is still ok.
Compressor wheel 6+6 or GTX-style 11 blade?
C30 with this turbo have about 400 hp at 4200rpm i suppose, because it is auto trans shift pount, so i can make same hp revving a little higher. If GT2359 hybrid can make 2.5 bar @ 4200rpm in 3.0 it can make same boost at 4600-4800rpm in 2.7
Both works
No, injectors too small and a couple of other things.
Haven't tried.
Why do you want so much revs, there is no need to go above 4500 ?
(12-15-2016, 11:44 PM)Rom1(12-15-2016, 08:57 AM)tuikku .
I have done many ~400hp, 3L engines with single vnt, many.
Garrett gt2359 hybrid version from OM613 is suitable and easy to fit.
AMG turbine + orig size billet compressor with extented tip will do the job.
2,5-2.6bar boost in 3L engine, yours need ~3bar.
Backpressure tells when the compressor is in max, ~1bar more backpressure is still ok.
Compressor wheel 6+6 or GTX-style 11 blade?
C30 with this turbo have about 400 hp at 4200rpm i suppose, because it is auto trans shift pount, so i can make same hp revving a little higher. If GT2359 hybrid can make 2.5 bar @ 4200rpm in 3.0 it can make same boost at 4600-4800rpm in 2.7
Both works
No, injectors too small and a couple of other things.
Haven't tried.
Why do you want so much revs, there is no need to go above 4500 ?
12-16-2016, 10:54 PM
#28
(12-16-2016, 03:48 PM)tuikku Both works
No, injectors too small and a couple of other things.
Haven't tried.
Why do you want so much revs, there is no need to go above 4500 ?
I ask because I've heard that GTX blades are for higher PR and 6+6 are for more max flow. But on practice many tuners who tried to use GTX blades states that it's a crap, because of very bad spool and poor overall efficiency, and they go for 6+6 (on GTB2260VK).
I want high revs because i can make it) If Herlevi nozzles are good as he states, then i can have high iq with short duration at high rpms, why not to use that advantage? If it will really flows about 200mm^3 at 1500ms i will not be able to max it out at middle rpms because i need then huge boost 4-4.5 bar. But can use advantage of it at high rpms where injection window is short and get more hp and more working rpms.
(12-16-2016, 03:48 PM)tuikku Both works
No, injectors too small and a couple of other things.
Haven't tried.
Why do you want so much revs, there is no need to go above 4500 ?
I ask because I've heard that GTX blades are for higher PR and 6+6 are for more max flow. But on practice many tuners who tried to use GTX blades states that it's a crap, because of very bad spool and poor overall efficiency, and they go for 6+6 (on GTB2260VK).
I want high revs because i can make it) If Herlevi nozzles are good as he states, then i can have high iq with short duration at high rpms, why not to use that advantage? If it will really flows about 200mm^3 at 1500ms i will not be able to max it out at middle rpms because i need then huge boost 4-4.5 bar. But can use advantage of it at high rpms where injection window is short and get more hp and more working rpms.
12-17-2016, 06:11 AM
#29
(12-16-2016, 10:54 PM)Rom1(12-16-2016, 03:48 PM)tuikku Both works
No, injectors too small and a couple of other things.
Haven't tried.
Why do you want so much revs, there is no need to go above 4500 ?
I ask because I've heard that GTX blades are for higher PR and 6+6 are for more max flow. But on practice many tuners who tried to use GTX blades states that it's a crap, because of very bad spool and poor overall efficiency, and they go for 6+6 (on GTB2260VK).
I want high revs because i can make it) If Herlevi nozzles are good as he states, then i can have high iq with short duration at high rpms, why not to use that advantage? If it will really flows about 200mm^3 at 1500ms i will not be able to max it out at middle rpms because i need then huge boost 4-4.5 bar. But can use advantage of it at high rpms where injection window is short and get more hp and more working rpms.
Nonsense
GTX works well.
You have a lot of work first to learn cdi-engine working principals.
(12-16-2016, 10:54 PM)Rom1(12-16-2016, 03:48 PM)tuikku Both works
No, injectors too small and a couple of other things.
Haven't tried.
Why do you want so much revs, there is no need to go above 4500 ?
I ask because I've heard that GTX blades are for higher PR and 6+6 are for more max flow. But on practice many tuners who tried to use GTX blades states that it's a crap, because of very bad spool and poor overall efficiency, and they go for 6+6 (on GTB2260VK).
I want high revs because i can make it) If Herlevi nozzles are good as he states, then i can have high iq with short duration at high rpms, why not to use that advantage? If it will really flows about 200mm^3 at 1500ms i will not be able to max it out at middle rpms because i need then huge boost 4-4.5 bar. But can use advantage of it at high rpms where injection window is short and get more hp and more working rpms.
Nonsense
GTX works well.
You have a lot of work first to learn cdi-engine working principals.
12-17-2016, 08:59 AM
#31
(12-17-2016, 07:51 AM)MartinB Very bad spool?? I have nearly instant spool with GTX on GT23V.
That is not my opinion, just heard this from TDI-tuners in case of GTB2260VK and wanted to know true from first hands). Btw, what is maximum boost do you have with GTX wheel?
12-18-2016, 06:37 AM
#33
I want high revs because i can make it) If Herlevi nozzles are good as he states, then i can have high iq with short duration at high rpms, why not to use that advantage? If it will really flows about 200mm^3 at 1500ms i will not be able to max it out at middle rpms because i need then huge boost 4-4.5 bar. But can use advantage of it at high rpms where injection window is short and get more hp and more working rpms.
Can you elaborate on this statement? I dont really understand what do you mean by this and it seems to me that you are a bit lost with CR tech.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
Rom1
I want high revs because i can make it) If Herlevi nozzles are good as he states, then i can have high iq with short duration at high rpms, why not to use that advantage? If it will really flows about 200mm^3 at 1500ms i will not be able to max it out at middle rpms because i need then huge boost 4-4.5 bar. But can use advantage of it at high rpms where injection window is short and get more hp and more working rpms.
Can you elaborate on this statement? I dont really understand what do you mean by this and it seems to me that you are a bit lost with CR tech.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
12-18-2016, 10:38 AM
#34
(12-17-2016, 06:11 AM)tuikku You have a lot of work first to learn cdi-engine working principals.
(12-18-2016, 06:37 AM)starynovy Can you elaborate on this statement? I dont really understand what do you mean by this and it seems to me that you are a bit lost with CR tech.
My english far not perfect, so i will try to rephrase it.
If i am wrong please explain why.
All we know that car diesel engine revs are limited low compared to gas engine because diesel fuel burn slow. More rpm - less time for fuel to burn.
But it is not only reason. I have made some calculation to be specific.
OM 612 engine.
All calculations are rough and not consider all factors, but good for understanding my thoughts.
If we properly inject for example 70mm^3 at 4000rpm and AFR 17 and VE 83.5 (2.26 bar boost) we get 373HP and 489 ft-lb (663Nm) torque (Note: its perfect conditions, no pressure drop and temp gain after TC, low BSFC).
If we make same IQ at 5000rpm and 5% less VE (2.4 bar boost) we have 456HP and 479 (649Nm) ft-lb torque. Good theoretical hp gain, but we should make calculations for injector operations.
Stock injectors at 1350bar RP needs 1153 microseconds to inject 70mm^3 according to ECU file.
At 5000rpm 1153 microseconds = 34.6 deg (5000rpm = 1800000 Cr deg/min = 30000cr deg/s = 0.03 cr deg/microSec * 1069 = 34.6 cr deg by 1153 microseconds).
Stock SOI map limits at 21.5 deg BTDC and we will not go beyond this because of PCP.
In this case EOI is 13.1 deg ATDC (34.6-21.5). With such a high EOI we will get what part of fuel burn will not make efficent job, will be high EGT and smoke level. So we most likely will not get any hp gain, only smoke.
But for example we have injector that injects 70mm^3 at 700 microseconds
At 5000rpm 700 microseconds is 21 deg of crank angle.
With 21.5 SOI limit we can be shure that we can make optimal EOI.
For example with SOI 17 deg BTDC we get EOI 5 deg ATDC.
In this case we get desirable torque and hp.
Of course it rough calculations where many factors are not considered, but it gives a concept.
That is why i think i can get more hp at 5000 rpm if injectors are big enough and i can deliver more air in cylinder or provide high VE. If i am wrong please explain why
(12-17-2016, 06:11 AM)tuikku You have a lot of work first to learn cdi-engine working principals.
(12-18-2016, 06:37 AM)starynovy Can you elaborate on this statement? I dont really understand what do you mean by this and it seems to me that you are a bit lost with CR tech.
My english far not perfect, so i will try to rephrase it.
If i am wrong please explain why.
All we know that car diesel engine revs are limited low compared to gas engine because diesel fuel burn slow. More rpm - less time for fuel to burn.
But it is not only reason. I have made some calculation to be specific.
OM 612 engine.
All calculations are rough and not consider all factors, but good for understanding my thoughts.
If we properly inject for example 70mm^3 at 4000rpm and AFR 17 and VE 83.5 (2.26 bar boost) we get 373HP and 489 ft-lb (663Nm) torque (Note: its perfect conditions, no pressure drop and temp gain after TC, low BSFC).
If we make same IQ at 5000rpm and 5% less VE (2.4 bar boost) we have 456HP and 479 (649Nm) ft-lb torque. Good theoretical hp gain, but we should make calculations for injector operations.
Stock injectors at 1350bar RP needs 1153 microseconds to inject 70mm^3 according to ECU file.
At 5000rpm 1153 microseconds = 34.6 deg (5000rpm = 1800000 Cr deg/min = 30000cr deg/s = 0.03 cr deg/microSec * 1069 = 34.6 cr deg by 1153 microseconds).
Stock SOI map limits at 21.5 deg BTDC and we will not go beyond this because of PCP.
In this case EOI is 13.1 deg ATDC (34.6-21.5). With such a high EOI we will get what part of fuel burn will not make efficent job, will be high EGT and smoke level. So we most likely will not get any hp gain, only smoke.
But for example we have injector that injects 70mm^3 at 700 microseconds
At 5000rpm 700 microseconds is 21 deg of crank angle.
With 21.5 SOI limit we can be shure that we can make optimal EOI.
For example with SOI 17 deg BTDC we get EOI 5 deg ATDC.
In this case we get desirable torque and hp.
Of course it rough calculations where many factors are not considered, but it gives a concept.
That is why i think i can get more hp at 5000 rpm if injectors are big enough and i can deliver more air in cylinder or provide high VE. If i am wrong please explain why
12-18-2016, 01:54 PM
#35
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
ok this makes sense. I did not get why you need 4.5Bar at mid revs and higher you does not or whatever you ment. Just to add, there is no limit for SOI once you change limiter map. Also that engine makes around 2kW/mm3 stock, so for your goals you will need around 150mm3.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
12-18-2016, 02:06 PM
#36
170hp = 63mm^3/4000rpm
=> 340hp needs at least 126mm^3, in theory, real life is something else ...
(C30cdi amg gives 300hp/~112mm~3/4000rpm/1,7bar boost.
400nm = ~75mm^3 between 2000-2600rpm
=> 800nm = 150mm^3
and 650nm = 122mm^3, in the best possible conditions.
(C30cdi gives very near 700nm/~130mm^3/1,7bar boost)
You have all my respect, if you only by yourself can built +300hp engine and it really works properly with your program.
OM612 program
170hp = 63mm^3/4000rpm
=> 340hp needs at least 126mm^3, in theory, real life is something else ...
(C30cdi amg gives 300hp/~112mm~3/4000rpm/1,7bar boost.
400nm = ~75mm^3 between 2000-2600rpm
=> 800nm = 150mm^3
and 650nm = 122mm^3, in the best possible conditions.
(C30cdi gives very near 700nm/~130mm^3/1,7bar boost)
You have all my respect, if you only by yourself can built +300hp engine and it really works properly with your program.
12-18-2016, 02:51 PM
#37
Have you calculated top combustion pressure?
herlevis injectors is the fast enough to open? Even if the injector is big in flow the interesting part is it need to give a lot in short window
I guess you mean 200 at 1500 micro S not 1500micro S
to find injector information, очень трудно или практически невозможно
Rom1
Have you calculated top combustion pressure?
herlevis injectors is the fast enough to open? Even if the injector is big in flow the interesting part is it need to give a lot in short window
I guess you mean 200 at 1500 micro S not 1500micro S
to find injector information, очень трудно или практически невозможно
12-18-2016, 03:42 PM
#38
(12-18-2016, 01:54 PM)starynovy ok this makes sense. I did not get why you need 4.5Bar at mid revs and higher you does not or whatever you ment. Just to add, there is no limit for SOI once you change limiter map. Also that engine makes around 2kW/mm3 stock, so for your goals you will need around 150mm3.My goal is 3.5 (4.5 bar absolute) bar in all range, but i was not shure that HE221W and HX40 can make it at high revs in compound. Now i decided to go with GT2359V that i alredy have, but with mods that Tuikku suggest and probably HX50 in compound. But first i will make logs of EMP/Boost/temperatures before and after compressor to make decision about max flow of GT2359V with GTX comp and AMG turbine wheel. If it suitable for my targets then i'll make compound with it as HP. And maybe i can save stock exhaust manifold then, but i need to mount wastegate on it. Not shure about space for LP in this case in tight engine bay, but will see.
Yes i find SOI limiter, but did not find axis for this map. But i think i can edit this properly without that.
(12-18-2016, 02:06 PM)tuikku OM612 programI hope so) First step biggest nozzles, valve springs, GT2359V mod and transmission upgrade. If injectors will be indeed very good i will go forward with mods.
170hp = 63mm^3/4000rpm
=> 340hp needs at least 126mm^3, in theory, real life is something else ...
(C30cdi amg gives 300hp/~112mm~3/4000rpm/1,7bar boost.
400nm = ~75mm^3 between 2000-2600rpm
=> 800nm = 150mm^3
and 650nm = 122mm^3, in the best possible conditions.
(C30cdi gives very near 700nm/~130mm^3/1,7bar boost)
You have all my respect, if you only by yourself can built +300hp engine and it really works properly with your program.
(12-18-2016, 02:51 PM)Turbo Rom1
Have you calculated top combustion pressure?
herlevis injectors is the fast enough to open? Even if the injector is big in flow the interesting part is it need to give a lot in short window
I guess you mean 200 at 1500 micro S not 1500micro S
to find injector information, очень трудно или практически невозможно
There are good program called Diesel-RK which developed by Bauman Moscow State Technical University. It is in english language. It is thermodynamic engine simulation tool. Very useful to calculate and simulate injection timing, piston bowl, intake and eshaust parameters and have visual simulation of injection process. So i will try to calculate all necesary parameters in it.
He offers only nozzles, with max flow of 200 mm^3 at 1500 microseconds at 1800 bar pressure on stock OM 611/21/13 body. Also he have smaller nozzles. I will know and write exact parameters after ill test them personally. And you are right about opening time, it could be problem. But i am sure there is a way to improve solenoids. But for now i have no idea how. Need to learn this subject.
Also it would be interesting to tune this engine with later OM646 delphi piezo injectors, they should fit perfect. But need different ECU or injector driver, so this mod unreachable for me
Ты прав, инжекторы это самая большая проблема
(12-18-2016, 01:54 PM)starynovy ok this makes sense. I did not get why you need 4.5Bar at mid revs and higher you does not or whatever you ment. Just to add, there is no limit for SOI once you change limiter map. Also that engine makes around 2kW/mm3 stock, so for your goals you will need around 150mm3.My goal is 3.5 (4.5 bar absolute) bar in all range, but i was not shure that HE221W and HX40 can make it at high revs in compound. Now i decided to go with GT2359V that i alredy have, but with mods that Tuikku suggest and probably HX50 in compound. But first i will make logs of EMP/Boost/temperatures before and after compressor to make decision about max flow of GT2359V with GTX comp and AMG turbine wheel. If it suitable for my targets then i'll make compound with it as HP. And maybe i can save stock exhaust manifold then, but i need to mount wastegate on it. Not shure about space for LP in this case in tight engine bay, but will see.
Yes i find SOI limiter, but did not find axis for this map. But i think i can edit this properly without that.
(12-18-2016, 02:06 PM)tuikku OM612 programI hope so) First step biggest nozzles, valve springs, GT2359V mod and transmission upgrade. If injectors will be indeed very good i will go forward with mods.
170hp = 63mm^3/4000rpm
=> 340hp needs at least 126mm^3, in theory, real life is something else ...
(C30cdi amg gives 300hp/~112mm~3/4000rpm/1,7bar boost.
400nm = ~75mm^3 between 2000-2600rpm
=> 800nm = 150mm^3
and 650nm = 122mm^3, in the best possible conditions.
(C30cdi gives very near 700nm/~130mm^3/1,7bar boost)
You have all my respect, if you only by yourself can built +300hp engine and it really works properly with your program.
(12-18-2016, 02:51 PM)Turbo Rom1
Have you calculated top combustion pressure?
herlevis injectors is the fast enough to open? Even if the injector is big in flow the interesting part is it need to give a lot in short window
I guess you mean 200 at 1500 micro S not 1500micro S
to find injector information, очень трудно или практически невозможно
There are good program called Diesel-RK which developed by Bauman Moscow State Technical University. It is in english language. It is thermodynamic engine simulation tool. Very useful to calculate and simulate injection timing, piston bowl, intake and eshaust parameters and have visual simulation of injection process. So i will try to calculate all necesary parameters in it.
He offers only nozzles, with max flow of 200 mm^3 at 1500 microseconds at 1800 bar pressure on stock OM 611/21/13 body. Also he have smaller nozzles. I will know and write exact parameters after ill test them personally. And you are right about opening time, it could be problem. But i am sure there is a way to improve solenoids. But for now i have no idea how. Need to learn this subject.
Also it would be interesting to tune this engine with later OM646 delphi piezo injectors, they should fit perfect. But need different ECU or injector driver, so this mod unreachable for me
Ты прав, инжекторы это самая большая проблема
12-19-2016, 01:52 AM
#39
(12-15-2016, 08:57 AM)tuikku .Tuikku i have a question for you because maybe you have answer. I have C30 and stock intake manifolds. Stock manifold have long runners compared to AMG. Which one is best and why? I personally think that AMG manifold designed to be compact for A/W intercooler placement. But maybe it designed also for higher volumetric efficiency at high revs because of short runners, but i am not shure about length of runners inside. But more disturbing that AMG manifold seems do not have any plenum. Here are pictures for others to understand.
I have done many ~400hp, 3L engines with single vnt, many.
C30 AMG
![[Image: 0000015308_002.jpg]](https://mein-autoteil.de/out/pictures/master/product/2/0000015308_002.jpg)
![[Image: 0000015308_001.jpg]](https://mein-autoteil.de/out/pictures/master/product/1/0000015308_001.jpg)
Stock OM612
![[Image: Intake-Manifold-Gaskets-Mercedes-Benz-C-...203-_1.jpg]](http://thumbs.picclick.com/00/s/ODAwWDgwMA==/z/w4gAAOSwe7BWxY9V/%24/Intake-Manifold-Gaskets-Mercedes-Benz-C-Class-W203-S203-_1.jpg)
![[Image: Intake-Manifold-Gaskets-Mercedes-Benz-C-...203-_1.jpg]](http://thumbs.picclick.com/00/s/ODAwWDgwMA==/z/l6QAAOSwUuFWxY9U/%24/Intake-Manifold-Gaskets-Mercedes-Benz-C-Class-W203-S203-_1.jpg)
(12-15-2016, 08:57 AM)tuikku .Tuikku i have a question for you because maybe you have answer. I have C30 and stock intake manifolds. Stock manifold have long runners compared to AMG. Which one is best and why? I personally think that AMG manifold designed to be compact for A/W intercooler placement. But maybe it designed also for higher volumetric efficiency at high revs because of short runners, but i am not shure about length of runners inside. But more disturbing that AMG manifold seems do not have any plenum. Here are pictures for others to understand.
I have done many ~400hp, 3L engines with single vnt, many.
C30 AMG
Stock OM612
12-19-2016, 06:14 AM
#40
Evgeniy1987
12-19-2016, 06:14 AM #40A plastic manifold for sure can't handle the boost. Actually not necessarily the plastic itself, but more the O-ring seals...
12-21-2016, 02:19 PM
#42
(12-20-2016, 01:51 PM)tuikku ...That's g-damn the least thing one can expect from a manifold
Air mass per cyl is equal.
Evgeniy1987
12-21-2016, 02:19 PM #42(12-20-2016, 01:51 PM)tuikku ...That's g-damn the least thing one can expect from a manifold
Air mass per cyl is equal.
12-21-2016, 06:23 PM
#43
We are near 300PS on OM611 and not maxed out yet by far so it must be piece of cake on 2.7.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
And yet, not all deliver.
We are near 300PS on OM611 and not maxed out yet by far so it must be piece of cake on 2.7.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
04-06-2017, 05:21 AM
#45
If you run the large turbo at high PR at higher rpm, the small compressor is not doing anything for PR. You push it to the bottom right of its map and it just sits there at some low PR at high engine rpm. This is small compressor mass flow corrected for intercooling and inlet pressure.
atypicalguy
04-06-2017, 05:21 AM #45I dont know what you decided but mass flow through both compressors is always equal. You probably want sequential function for street use. Sultzi setup corrected for your own mass flow requrements is probably a good place to start, unless you want even earlier spool. R3350 shows relevant threads above. 4btswaps has some nice compound threads also; search username Dougal there and bush65.
If you run the large turbo at high PR at higher rpm, the small compressor is not doing anything for PR. You push it to the bottom right of its map and it just sits there at some low PR at high engine rpm. This is small compressor mass flow corrected for intercooling and inlet pressure.
04-08-2017, 02:10 PM
#46
(12-13-2016, 01:54 AM)Rom1 Hi everyone
Need help for street turbo compound on OM612. Wanted boost is 3,5 bar from 2000-2500 RPM to 5000 RPM.
For HP i thought about GTB2260VK or HE221W. I've choosen HE221W because it flows more (max about 38 lb/min) than 2260.
LP is HX40. I never dealed with compound setup so i need your help guys.
My plan was PR 2 from LP and PR 2.25 from HP. But according to my calculations HE221W compressor will choke (out of comp map) past 4000 RPM. Is it critical and i should bypass HP and try to get about 3 bar from LP alone at 4000-5000 RPM range?
And what about control? Which control method preferable: maintaining reasonable EGP, or maintaining boost at each stage (HX40 wastegate opens when boost in LP stage more then 1 bar and HP wastegate opens when final boost more then 3.5 bar, but in this case will be impossible to get 3 bar boost from LP at 4000-5000 rpm because wastegate opens at 1 bar...)
You can add the pressure from the big turbo to hold the wastegate of small turbo closed. then small turbo will always add x pressure to the big turbo boost, and spring can be normal 15lb or whatever.
RuN total boost to open large gate. use a regulator and normal spring.
No compressor bypass.
That is how I plan to do it.
atypicalguy
04-08-2017, 02:10 PM #46(12-13-2016, 01:54 AM)Rom1 Hi everyone
Need help for street turbo compound on OM612. Wanted boost is 3,5 bar from 2000-2500 RPM to 5000 RPM.
For HP i thought about GTB2260VK or HE221W. I've choosen HE221W because it flows more (max about 38 lb/min) than 2260.
LP is HX40. I never dealed with compound setup so i need your help guys.
My plan was PR 2 from LP and PR 2.25 from HP. But according to my calculations HE221W compressor will choke (out of comp map) past 4000 RPM. Is it critical and i should bypass HP and try to get about 3 bar from LP alone at 4000-5000 RPM range?
And what about control? Which control method preferable: maintaining reasonable EGP, or maintaining boost at each stage (HX40 wastegate opens when boost in LP stage more then 1 bar and HP wastegate opens when final boost more then 3.5 bar, but in this case will be impossible to get 3 bar boost from LP at 4000-5000 rpm because wastegate opens at 1 bar...)
You can add the pressure from the big turbo to hold the wastegate of small turbo closed. then small turbo will always add x pressure to the big turbo boost, and spring can be normal 15lb or whatever.
RuN total boost to open large gate. use a regulator and normal spring.
No compressor bypass.
That is how I plan to do it.
08-28-2019, 07:37 PM
#47
(12-19-2016, 01:52 AM)Rom1(12-15-2016, 08:57 AM)tuikku .Tuikku i have a question for you because maybe you have answer. I have C30 and stock intake manifolds. Stock manifold have long runners compared to AMG. Which one is best and why? I personally think that AMG manifold designed to be compact for A/W intercooler placement. But maybe it designed also for higher volumetric efficiency at high revs because of short runners, but i am not shure about length of runners inside. But more disturbing that AMG manifold seems do not have any plenum. Here are pictures for others to understand.
I have done many ~400hp, 3L engines with single vnt, many.
C30 AMG
Stock OM612
Well Rom1, how did your project turn out?
atypicalguy
08-28-2019, 07:37 PM #47(12-19-2016, 01:52 AM)Rom1(12-15-2016, 08:57 AM)tuikku .Tuikku i have a question for you because maybe you have answer. I have C30 and stock intake manifolds. Stock manifold have long runners compared to AMG. Which one is best and why? I personally think that AMG manifold designed to be compact for A/W intercooler placement. But maybe it designed also for higher volumetric efficiency at high revs because of short runners, but i am not shure about length of runners inside. But more disturbing that AMG manifold seems do not have any plenum. Here are pictures for others to understand.
I have done many ~400hp, 3L engines with single vnt, many.
C30 AMG
Stock OM612
Well Rom1, how did your project turn out?
05-17-2020, 12:52 AM
#49
(05-15-2020, 11:14 PM)atypicalguy Crickets.This forum is 90% new folks asking questions and 10% knowledgeable folks answering. When the latter don't post for a bit (maybe for a certain global event) things get quiet
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
(05-15-2020, 11:14 PM)atypicalguy Crickets.This forum is 90% new folks asking questions and 10% knowledgeable folks answering. When the latter don't post for a bit (maybe for a certain global event) things get quiet
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
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