Help with 603 Turbo inputs
Help with 603 Turbo inputs
I have seen one spreadsheet that listed bsfc up to 4700 rpm (which was .47 and .77 for VE) Anything after that was assumed to drop significantly, they just assumed at 5250 it went to .5 and .7, but I think this was for stock power so maybe the governor cutting in had something to do with it?
I've played with a few calculators but I have numbers all over the place, for example one gave pretty consistent lb/min ratings, but the PRs were (seemed) really high, for example 27 psi for 260 crank hp @ 36.8 lbs.
Garrett's calculator for the same inputs said 20.25 psi / 2.4 PR / 33.8 lbs
Anyway, I guess what I am asking is if anyone has an further input on VE or bsfc for 603s, or at least something similar. How much better VE are the 606/ 605s? Some people have suggested that only 15-17 psi is needed for lower power outputs, while I see others claiming huge PRs are needed, yet dyno results typically seem to be on the lower side of PSI used. Swatmugga had like 330 hp at 1.3 bar and Muuris had 380 (though on a 606) with 1.8. I assume 603s require slightly more pressure due to having less valves.
My turbo plans are kind of right on the cusp of these numbers and I am thinking of getting a slightly bigger wheel, but wanted to check with you all since it can go either way depending on if I am using the right inputs.
I've become pretty consumed by turbo calculators lately and am trying to figure out what types of flow I'd need for around 260hp on a 603.
I have seen one spreadsheet that listed bsfc up to 4700 rpm (which was .47 and .77 for VE) Anything after that was assumed to drop significantly, they just assumed at 5250 it went to .5 and .7, but I think this was for stock power so maybe the governor cutting in had something to do with it?
I've played with a few calculators but I have numbers all over the place, for example one gave pretty consistent lb/min ratings, but the PRs were (seemed) really high, for example 27 psi for 260 crank hp @ 36.8 lbs.
Garrett's calculator for the same inputs said 20.25 psi / 2.4 PR / 33.8 lbs
Anyway, I guess what I am asking is if anyone has an further input on VE or bsfc for 603s, or at least something similar. How much better VE are the 606/ 605s? Some people have suggested that only 15-17 psi is needed for lower power outputs, while I see others claiming huge PRs are needed, yet dyno results typically seem to be on the lower side of PSI used. Swatmugga had like 330 hp at 1.3 bar and Muuris had 380 (though on a 606) with 1.8. I assume 603s require slightly more pressure due to having less valves.
My turbo plans are kind of right on the cusp of these numbers and I am thinking of getting a slightly bigger wheel, but wanted to check with you all since it can go either way depending on if I am using the right inputs.
play with the numbers on that to get an idea.
it also depends where you want the 260hp. at 3k its 34lbs/min @ 2.2Bar(g)
or 38lbs/min @1.4Bar(g) at 5k
You are right though the 603 is less efficient due to less valves so doesnt make as much power in higher revs.
So ideally you probably want 260hp @4-4.5k
Look out for CompoundCalculator603
play with the numbers on that to get an idea.
it also depends where you want the 260hp. at 3k its 34lbs/min @ 2.2Bar(g)
or 38lbs/min @1.4Bar(g) at 5k
You are right though the 603 is less efficient due to less valves so doesnt make as much power in higher revs.
So ideally you probably want 260hp @4-4.5k
barrote, ahhh HX35 "crap" haha. I am actually going to move away from holset for now. Since I have a w126 I want to retain some low end, although I realize you can't have both unless you compound or vgt. My HX30 is ok but the wastegate hole is garbage, I am stuck with 6cm housing which is crap and 44mm wheel that does not flow very much despite being 73mm on the other end. Overall it's a lot of mass to spin for what it gives. It spools up quick and has good midrange but after 3000 is just kinda sucks. I have a lot of of other mods to do still which might make it better but I like to waste money on turbos so why not try something else?
My current turbo I am going to try (which I won't tell you what it is!) is smaller in size but flows 38 lb min and has a 10cm housing. I think overall it should be fine but I may still want an ewg since the turbine is a little bit small.
I also have a BW sitting in the garage that is somewhere in between an HX35 and HY35 in terms of size, has a twin scroll and 10 blade turbine. This thing is a monster though....I'll probably hold onto it for either a future 606 project or if I upgrade to 7 or 8 mm elements.
All that being said, 260 hp might really be a dream, I'll be more likely to max out around 240, but I am still going to see what I can do.
Sean, yeah that is the spreadsheet I saw. I didn't know there was more to it and that you could enter your own numbers. I'll have to play around and see but 38 lb/ min seems right and the pressure is closer to what I thought it should be.
barrote, ahhh HX35 "crap" haha. I am actually going to move away from holset for now. Since I have a w126 I want to retain some low end, although I realize you can't have both unless you compound or vgt. My HX30 is ok but the wastegate hole is garbage, I am stuck with 6cm housing which is crap and 44mm wheel that does not flow very much despite being 73mm on the other end. Overall it's a lot of mass to spin for what it gives. It spools up quick and has good midrange but after 3000 is just kinda sucks. I have a lot of of other mods to do still which might make it better but I like to waste money on turbos so why not try something else?
My current turbo I am going to try (which I won't tell you what it is!) is smaller in size but flows 38 lb min and has a 10cm housing. I think overall it should be fine but I may still want an ewg since the turbine is a little bit small.
I also have a BW sitting in the garage that is somewhere in between an HX35 and HY35 in terms of size, has a twin scroll and 10 blade turbine. This thing is a monster though....I'll probably hold onto it for either a future 606 project or if I upgrade to 7 or 8 mm elements.
All that being said, 260 hp might really be a dream, I'll be more likely to max out around 240, but I am still going to see what I can do.
Me too have one, but is only the harness, turbine is garret low inertia, compressor is those billet crap, 85/65, and it is only to push through a decent size VNT, (small enough to awake above idle) wich is undorgoing major changes, it will be fitted with a even better turbine and a bigguer compressor something in the 55/70 . 2.5 Boost to 3 EGP untill 4k from 4k on 2.5 to 2.5 , i´k kind of happy engine is 605N/A
.trial and error... but if u have the bills , sure u can achieve better results with a EFR version of some kkk. or some garrets for racing , but having low´s and high´s , many of us are dreaming of that. I belive even if i reach the desired .8/1 ratio i´ll search improuving something else ....
regards
FD,
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Yep , holset crap, u know sometimes i make some overhauling in pumps and most often people ask what i think about this and that ... turbos usually is what i can´t have a clue.... Calculators what for ? its all about how much u can inject.... and belive me in a 606 between 150cc and 200cc is the most easy way to reach the 400 number . But they are crap and here in my planet very costly , expecially the left hand versions.
Me too have one, but is only the harness, turbine is garret low inertia, compressor is those billet crap, 85/65, and it is only to push through a decent size VNT, (small enough to awake above idle) wich is undorgoing major changes, it will be fitted with a even better turbine and a bigguer compressor something in the 55/70 . 2.5 Boost to 3 EGP untill 4k from 4k on 2.5 to 2.5 , i´k kind of happy engine is 605N/A .
trial and error... but if u have the bills , sure u can achieve better results with a EFR version of some kkk. or some garrets for racing , but having low´s and high´s , many of us are dreaming of that. I belive even if i reach the desired .8/1 ratio i´ll search improuving something else ....
regards
FD,
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