Delivery valves
Delivery valves
Here's a thread about a '95 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 with a Cummins "B5.9 160" (the lowest possible HP rating of the P-pump Dodge/Cummins engines and often considered inferior to the 180hp and definitely the 215hp models). This truck has the OEM, never touched P7100 IP on it and it runs high 11's in the 1/4-mile. For a truck that runs that quick (and has such great 60' times!) - she doesn't smoke bad at all!!!
I know I'm not comparing apples to oranges since an OEM P7100 has the capability to fuel around 600hp...but it just goes to show that bolt-ons and the right tweaks can make a BIG difference.
YouTube video link 1
YouTube video link 2
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
05-13-2008, 02:41 PM #1IMHO - 200hp should be pretty easy for a 3.0L IDI I5 without touching the IP at all... (or the head/block, internals, etc.)
Here's a thread about a '95 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 with a Cummins "B5.9 160" (the lowest possible HP rating of the P-pump Dodge/Cummins engines and often considered inferior to the 180hp and definitely the 215hp models). This truck has the OEM, never touched P7100 IP on it and it runs high 11's in the 1/4-mile. For a truck that runs that quick (and has such great 60' times!) - she doesn't smoke bad at all!!!
I know I'm not comparing apples to oranges since an OEM P7100 has the capability to fuel around 600hp...but it just goes to show that bolt-ons and the right tweaks can make a BIG difference.
YouTube video link 1
YouTube video link 2
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
GREASY_BEAST
05-13-2008, 03:00 PM #2thats awesome but the plungers in the 160hp pump still are enormously oversized for what its set at stock, right? I mean all you have to do is turn the screw and you get a ton more fuel than stock.. I'm not saying that its not possible to get more, but I am at maximum fueling (from the pump's perspective) below 2400rpm now with the MW pump's rack limiter removed and it ain't all that much (certainly improved over stock). The only hope is for bigger injector nozzles, and improving fuel delivery to the injectors above 2500rpm with TC adjustments, and increasing the revs to gain more hp on top. That will be the limit of what the "stock" pump can do, as far as I can tell... After that, if you want more, bigger plungers are needed to push more fuel. I agree that injector mods should help the situation somewhat. Just how much is the real question. This tuning situation is a little different than a P-pump because we don't have the freedom to just turn the screw and add fuel. The screw is already turned, but we have to squeeze even more out.
The most you can get out of a B5.9 with a 160hp P7100 is about 300hp...that's with maximizing pretty much everything yet still keeping OEM parts. I've got dyno sheets to prove it. (I should have been more clear - the 600hp in OEM form quote is for larger displacement engines and obviously larger plungers/barrels.)
Do the M or MW pumps have 'delivery valves' on top of the plungers? I've attached some pictures to show what these look like on a P7100 IP (the valve itself, the DV holder and the holder installed into the pump...). Modifying these will get you quite a bit more fuel... The DV holders also often have snubber valves in them - removing this valve or replacing these with units without the snubber valve will help flow more fuel as well...
I've also noticed that the injection lines on the IDIs are quite small compared to the DI's I'm used to. Perhaps upgrading these would help. It helps the DI's at the expense of idle quality when you get into the bigger ones like .120"...
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
05-13-2008, 03:11 PM #3I wouldn't go so far as to say that the plungers are massively oversized...
The most you can get out of a B5.9 with a 160hp P7100 is about 300hp...that's with maximizing pretty much everything yet still keeping OEM parts. I've got dyno sheets to prove it. (I should have been more clear - the 600hp in OEM form quote is for larger displacement engines and obviously larger plungers/barrels.)
Do the M or MW pumps have 'delivery valves' on top of the plungers? I've attached some pictures to show what these look like on a P7100 IP (the valve itself, the DV holder and the holder installed into the pump...). Modifying these will get you quite a bit more fuel... The DV holders also often have snubber valves in them - removing this valve or replacing these with units without the snubber valve will help flow more fuel as well...
I've also noticed that the injection lines on the IDIs are quite small compared to the DI's I'm used to. Perhaps upgrading these would help. It helps the DI's at the expense of idle quality when you get into the bigger ones like .120"...
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
GREASY_BEAST
05-13-2008, 03:16 PM #4Yes, there are delivery valves on top of the MW. They are more or less just like the ones in the picture. There is also a similar looking thing in the top of the injector, but it doesn't seem to move... Do you know what is actually done to modify the delivery valves?
GREASY_BEAST Yes, there are delivery valves on top of the MW. They are more or less just like the ones in the picture. There is also a similar looking thing in the top of the injector, but it doesn't seem to move... Do you know what is actually done to modify the delivery valves?
Nice! Now we're getting somewhere!
On the DV's there's the 'seat' area and just below that there is a collar - (which is directly above the fluted area at the bottom.) This collar is the single most important thing that impedes flow when it comes to the DV. For the P7100's there are numerous OEM DV's available with different width/shape collars out there. In the aftermarket - some folks just grind the collar off (very carefully, of course...) and try like heck to not nick the seat.
I have a set of cut DV's at for my P7100 and can certainly attest to how much fuel they add...
Right now I'm running "131" DV's (smallest possible due to the huge injectors I'm running...). I've run 191's and 022's - which each flow more than their predecessors...and the biggest - the cut DV's. Cut DV's flow a LOT of fuel and make really hot egt's when used with bigger injectors and not enough turbo.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
05-13-2008, 03:30 PM #5GREASY_BEAST Yes, there are delivery valves on top of the MW. They are more or less just like the ones in the picture. There is also a similar looking thing in the top of the injector, but it doesn't seem to move... Do you know what is actually done to modify the delivery valves?
Nice! Now we're getting somewhere!
On the DV's there's the 'seat' area and just below that there is a collar - (which is directly above the fluted area at the bottom.) This collar is the single most important thing that impedes flow when it comes to the DV. For the P7100's there are numerous OEM DV's available with different width/shape collars out there. In the aftermarket - some folks just grind the collar off (very carefully, of course...) and try like heck to not nick the seat.
I have a set of cut DV's at for my P7100 and can certainly attest to how much fuel they add...
Right now I'm running "131" DV's (smallest possible due to the huge injectors I'm running...). I've run 191's and 022's - which each flow more than their predecessors...and the biggest - the cut DV's. Cut DV's flow a LOT of fuel and make really hot egt's when used with bigger injectors and not enough turbo.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
Quote:just grind the collar off (very carefully, of course...) and try like heck to not nick the seat.
Thanks Matt! Thats an awesome bit of information right there. I've got an extra set of delivery valves on a junk IP to play with... I think I'll be trying this method.. We may see 230hp yet!
GREASY_BEAST
05-13-2008, 07:40 PM #6Quote:just grind the collar off (very carefully, of course...) and try like heck to not nick the seat.
Thanks Matt! Thats an awesome bit of information right there. I've got an extra set of delivery valves on a junk IP to play with... I think I'll be trying this method.. We may see 230hp yet!
HoleshotHolset On the DV's there's the 'seat' area and just below that there is a collar - (which is directly above the fluted area at the bottom.) This collar is the single most important thing that impedes flow when it comes to the DV. For the P7100's there are numerous OEM DV's available with different width/shape collars out there. In the aftermarket - some folks just grind the collar off (very carefully, of course...) and try like heck to not nick the seat.
I agree, now we're getting somewhere!
This is something I will definitely try. It may be too delicate for my grinder so I'll have to bust out the Dremel. :lol:
Remember to keep the valves and holders matched and let the valve cool to ambient temp before you try to insert it back into the holder.
The numbers on top of the DV head read 112 008 on both styles.
[attachment=0]<!-- ia0 -->OM61xDeliveryvalve2.jpg<!-- ia0 -->[/attachment]
ForcedInduction
05-14-2008, 03:14 AM
#7
HoleshotHolset On the DV's there's the 'seat' area and just below that there is a collar - (which is directly above the fluted area at the bottom.) This collar is the single most important thing that impedes flow when it comes to the DV. For the P7100's there are numerous OEM DV's available with different width/shape collars out there. In the aftermarket - some folks just grind the collar off (very carefully, of course...) and try like heck to not nick the seat.
I agree, now we're getting somewhere!
This is something I will definitely try. It may be too delicate for my grinder so I'll have to bust out the Dremel. :lol:
Remember to keep the valves and holders matched and let the valve cool to ambient temp before you try to insert it back into the holder.
The numbers on top of the DV head read 112 008 on both styles.
[attachment=0]<!-- ia0 -->OM61xDeliveryvalve2.jpg<!-- ia0 -->[/attachment]
Quote:There are also 191's, .022", .024", and laser cuts that have no shoulder on them. The shoulder is what ends the injection cycle, when you remove it the injectors may dribble or have second injections. They result in extreme smoke and excessive EGT's, and often provide so much fuel that it will put out the combustion flame, and actually net less power.
Would he be talking about that collar?
ForcedInduction
05-14-2008, 04:24 AM
#8
I found this on one of the Cummins forums.
Quote:There are also 191's, .022", .024", and laser cuts that have no shoulder on them. The shoulder is what ends the injection cycle, when you remove it the injectors may dribble or have second injections. They result in extreme smoke and excessive EGT's, and often provide so much fuel that it will put out the combustion flame, and actually net less power.
Would he be talking about that collar?
[attachment=2]<!-- ia2 -->Delivery Valves compared.jpg<!-- ia2 -->[/attachment]
It seems to me that the 0.6mm orifice in the pipe connection body would be more of a restriction. With it riveted in place, I don't see any way of enlarging that.
[attachment=1]<!-- ia1 -->Deliver valve pipe connection.jpg<!-- ia1 -->[/attachment]
[attachment=0]<!-- ia0 -->Deliver valve pipe connection2.jpg<!-- ia0 -->[/attachment]
ForcedInduction
05-14-2008, 05:01 AM
#9
Interesting picture found in another Cummins forum.
[attachment=2]<!-- ia2 -->Delivery Valves compared.jpg<!-- ia2 -->[/attachment]
It seems to me that the 0.6mm orifice in the pipe connection body would be more of a restriction. With it riveted in place, I don't see any way of enlarging that.
[attachment=1]<!-- ia1 -->Deliver valve pipe connection.jpg<!-- ia1 -->[/attachment]
[attachment=0]<!-- ia0 -->Deliver valve pipe connection2.jpg<!-- ia0 -->[/attachment]
GREASY_BEAST
05-14-2008, 07:55 PM #10so to summarize: You want some shoulder, but not a lot, because the shoulder keeps the injector from dribbling or secondary-injecting (which will burn tips, waste fuel, and make high egts). Also, don't touch the seat. correct?
ForcedInduction
05-14-2008, 08:35 PM
#11
I took a look at a spare pipe connection body with some airflow. At about 50psi the orifice opens up and flows unrestricted.
And then open up our injectors with better nozzles, etc, etc...
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling system
.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@
Nitrile gloves back on......'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!
) Euro headlightsMods are in the works...
Telecommbrkr
05-14-2008, 08:46 PM #12So, that amount of fuel for a given injection event is controled here? If so, then we want to increase the amount of fuel here. Correct?
And then open up our injectors with better nozzles, etc, etc...
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling system
.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@ Nitrile gloves back on......'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!
) Euro headlightsMods are in the works...
Quote:So, that amount of fuel for a given injection event is controlled here? If so, then we want to increase the amount of fuel here. Correct?I'm still researching exactly why the DV gives the Cummins people such a significant power boost.
ForcedInduction
05-15-2008, 07:38 AM
#13
My Dremel's head nut went missing so it might be a week or so before I can get one to try cutting with it. In the mean time I tried the air cutoff wheel but its too coarse and difficult to control for such a delicate operation. The three practice DV's I tried with it all ended up getting a nick on the seat.
Quote:So, that amount of fuel for a given injection event is controlled here? If so, then we want to increase the amount of fuel here. Correct?I'm still researching exactly why the DV gives the Cummins people such a significant power boost.
ForcedInduction I'm still researching exactly why the DV gives the Cummins people such a significant power boost.
It seems that maybe having a shorter collar on the DV leaves a bigger opening around the DV when the DV is in the "up" or open position. That allows fuel to flow more freely around it, and therefore more fuel to flow. This is exactly the same fluid flow principle that applies to the gains made by enlarging the injector orifice. If this is the case, not only should a shorter collar provide better fuel flow, but also rounding off any sharp edges on the delivery valve, especially the one at the bottom of what little collar you leave after grinding, and on the bottom of the "+" sign that you see when you look at the DV from the bottom.
One method I thought of for grinding the collars might be to chuck up a delivery valve in a drill press or the dremel and grind it with a stone, or maybe a file. That way you can put the dremel in a vice, and use the vice as a table to hold the file against, thereby giving you more precise control. Same applies to the drill press method. I have finals now so I won't be able to try this for a couple weeks.
It seems like leaving a small collar is important, though, to prevent secondary injection events.. That is what I would like to know more about.
EDIT: also, it is probably important that the modifications to one DV be the same as those to all DVs within some tolerance... like 0.001"?
GREASY_BEAST
05-15-2008, 02:08 PM #14ForcedInduction I'm still researching exactly why the DV gives the Cummins people such a significant power boost.
It seems that maybe having a shorter collar on the DV leaves a bigger opening around the DV when the DV is in the "up" or open position. That allows fuel to flow more freely around it, and therefore more fuel to flow. This is exactly the same fluid flow principle that applies to the gains made by enlarging the injector orifice. If this is the case, not only should a shorter collar provide better fuel flow, but also rounding off any sharp edges on the delivery valve, especially the one at the bottom of what little collar you leave after grinding, and on the bottom of the "+" sign that you see when you look at the DV from the bottom.
One method I thought of for grinding the collars might be to chuck up a delivery valve in a drill press or the dremel and grind it with a stone, or maybe a file. That way you can put the dremel in a vice, and use the vice as a table to hold the file against, thereby giving you more precise control. Same applies to the drill press method. I have finals now so I won't be able to try this for a couple weeks.
It seems like leaving a small collar is important, though, to prevent secondary injection events.. That is what I would like to know more about.
EDIT: also, it is probably important that the modifications to one DV be the same as those to all DVs within some tolerance... like 0.001"?
Quote:just take off the whole collar because if you don't do it the first time, you will just end up doing it later anyway
I like this thinking :twisted: It also conveniently alleviates the problem of making sure all the collars are ground to the same dimensions.
GREASY_BEAST
05-18-2008, 12:09 AM #15Just found a good forum with pretty good info on the DVs, forced already has posted there. Google 'delivery valve modifications' or something similar. I believe one of the quotes from a member there was
Quote:just take off the whole collar because if you don't do it the first time, you will just end up doing it later anyway
I like this thinking :twisted: It also conveniently alleviates the problem of making sure all the collars are ground to the same dimensions.
Quote:I like this thinking :twisted: It also conveniently alleviates the problem of making sure all the collars are ground to the same dimensions.They are already so thin. I honestly doubt anyone could cut them any thinner by hand or even if it would make any measurable difference making them any thinner.
As I see it, off with the collar is the only possible route to go. Unless you are starting with the old style that has the thicker collar, in which case you might as well just swap to the newer style that already has a thin collar...
[attachment=0]<!-- ia0 -->OM61xDeliveryvalve2a.jpg<!-- ia0 -->[/attachment]
ForcedInduction
05-18-2008, 02:40 PM
#16
I got (used) 10 spare new-style DV's and 4 old style DV's. All I need now is my Dremel....
Quote:I like this thinking :twisted: It also conveniently alleviates the problem of making sure all the collars are ground to the same dimensions.They are already so thin. I honestly doubt anyone could cut them any thinner by hand or even if it would make any measurable difference making them any thinner.
As I see it, off with the collar is the only possible route to go. Unless you are starting with the old style that has the thicker collar, in which case you might as well just swap to the newer style that already has a thin collar...
[attachment=0]<!-- ia0 -->OM61xDeliveryvalve2a.jpg<!-- ia0 -->[/attachment]
GREASY_BEAST
05-19-2008, 11:34 AM #17cutting the "V" notches farther up towards the seat would also improve things quite a bit, as well as smoothing and rounding here and there, but its gonna be hard to make them all the same without a milling machine.
GREASY_BEAST so to summarize: You want some shoulder, but not a lot, because the shoulder keeps the injector from dribbling or secondary-injecting (which will burn tips, waste fuel, and make high egts). Also, don't touch the seat. correct?
There sure is a fine line to achieve between gross overfueling and adding more to get what you're after. That said - I'm not fully on-board with the belief that multiple injection events will occur with running cut DVs. Some shoulder - but not a lot is fine - and definitely do not touch the seat.
With a pump-nozzle injection system, in order for a single injection event to take place...
- The camshaft in the IP has to come up to TDC if you will and push up to actuate the P&B[/*:m]
- Then the delivery valve has to pop[/*:m]
- Then the delivery valve holder has to pop[/*:m]
- Then the fuel goes through the injection line[/*:m]
- THEN the injector has to pop to flow fuel out the nozzle[/*:m][/list:u]
Removing any such one-way valve as they're implying in the DV doesn't seem like it can cause the injector to hang open or spontaneously cause another injection event. DV holders can be sourced without the poppet valves in them - but modding or running these can definitely cause idle quality and massive overfueling issues since the high pressure fuel in the line can try to flow backwards into the P&B instead of remaining in the line for the next injection event. I sure wouldn't do this for a street driven rig...
FWIW: The "022" DV's mentioned above aren't .022"...these DV's are from a Komatsu excavator application and literally have the numbers "022" stamped into the DV itself. Piers Harry (formerly of Piers Diesel Research and now of Peak Diesel Performance) handed me one of the first sets of 022's ever to be installed in a B5.9 Cummins/Dodge application back in '02...I ran them for a while and now they're in my Dad's truck. Since '02, lots of people have sourced these as an upgrade from the 131's, 181's, etc. that are OEM in the Dodge application P7100's...
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
05-19-2008, 11:58 AM #18GREASY_BEAST so to summarize: You want some shoulder, but not a lot, because the shoulder keeps the injector from dribbling or secondary-injecting (which will burn tips, waste fuel, and make high egts). Also, don't touch the seat. correct?
There sure is a fine line to achieve between gross overfueling and adding more to get what you're after. That said - I'm not fully on-board with the belief that multiple injection events will occur with running cut DVs. Some shoulder - but not a lot is fine - and definitely do not touch the seat.
With a pump-nozzle injection system, in order for a single injection event to take place...
- The camshaft in the IP has to come up to TDC if you will and push up to actuate the P&B[/*:m]
- Then the delivery valve has to pop[/*:m]
- Then the delivery valve holder has to pop[/*:m]
- Then the fuel goes through the injection line[/*:m]
- THEN the injector has to pop to flow fuel out the nozzle[/*:m][/list:u]
Removing any such one-way valve as they're implying in the DV doesn't seem like it can cause the injector to hang open or spontaneously cause another injection event. DV holders can be sourced without the poppet valves in them - but modding or running these can definitely cause idle quality and massive overfueling issues since the high pressure fuel in the line can try to flow backwards into the P&B instead of remaining in the line for the next injection event. I sure wouldn't do this for a street driven rig...
FWIW: The "022" DV's mentioned above aren't .022"...these DV's are from a Komatsu excavator application and literally have the numbers "022" stamped into the DV itself. Piers Harry (formerly of Piers Diesel Research and now of Peak Diesel Performance) handed me one of the first sets of 022's ever to be installed in a B5.9 Cummins/Dodge application back in '02...I ran them for a while and now they're in my Dad's truck. Since '02, lots of people have sourced these as an upgrade from the 131's, 181's, etc. that are OEM in the Dodge application P7100's...
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
GREASY_BEAST
05-19-2008, 04:15 PM #19As I understand it the secondary injection comes from a pressure wave that "bounces" back down the line towards the IP when the injector closes. That wave then bounces off the IP end of the system, and opens the injector a second time... Somehow, delivery valves are supposed to prevent this from happening/make it not as pronounced, and I think the shoulder has something to do with it.. In any case, the shoulders are coming off mine just as soon as I have the time.
Again, I still contend that the pressure won't be enough to cause an additional injection event. If the pressure was high enough in the line to pop the injector a 2nd time (?!) - the injector would still be open from the first event as it would have never closed in the first place. Keeping the snubber valve in the DV holder is a great way to prevent any such pressure waves surging back towards the IP. Since the DV is a one way valve - this pressure would have to somehow unseat the DV and flow backwards towards the pump. The seat is what is doing the sealing in the DV - not the collar.
I can't wait to hear how cutting the DV's on a M or MW + IDI works out. I know you won't be lacking fuel after that little modification.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
05-20-2008, 11:11 AM #20Yes - that pressure wave is precisely why I'm not going to be on the next plane to "run without snubber valves in my DV holders".
Again, I still contend that the pressure won't be enough to cause an additional injection event. If the pressure was high enough in the line to pop the injector a 2nd time (?!) - the injector would still be open from the first event as it would have never closed in the first place. Keeping the snubber valve in the DV holder is a great way to prevent any such pressure waves surging back towards the IP. Since the DV is a one way valve - this pressure would have to somehow unseat the DV and flow backwards towards the pump. The seat is what is doing the sealing in the DV - not the collar.
I can't wait to hear how cutting the DV's on a M or MW + IDI works out. I know you won't be lacking fuel after that little modification.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
One problem: with all the extra power the transmission is doing something funny.. it flares really bad on the upshift from 2nd to 3rd, and I think 3rd to 4th also... is this something due to the extra power that can be adjusted out with the bowden cable, or did I kill it?
Thanks holeshotholset for the tips on the DVs. Injectors will be next, after airflow. Now I have to plan a turbocharging strategy...
GREASY_BEAST
05-21-2008, 07:26 PM #21OK. I ground the shoulder off the DVs using a somewhat improvised method involving a lathe, some zipties, and a dremel tool. They all came out within about 5 thousandths of eachother, which is pretty bad. The idle quality went to crap, and it smokes a lot at idle. Buy so ****ing what!!! IT IS FAST! Can hit 1100°F EGT in no time flat, and really scoots when the boost comes up. Smokes thick black when I first step on it, turns to a thick grey when boost comes on. It really needs more air, badly. Also, being that there is no ALDA, its a little hard to control off idle... Its really easy to dump a whole lot of fuel into the atmosphere without any power being made, so I might put the ALDA back on it to calm it down a little. Priority number 1 now is getting more airflow. A word of caution to anyone willing to try this: don't do it the way I did, get it done right by a shop that can do it, with the proper precision grinding equipment. My way, although it worked, was bad, and I bet my poor idle quality is a result of imprecise grinding due to the nature of my setup.
One problem: with all the extra power the transmission is doing something funny.. it flares really bad on the upshift from 2nd to 3rd, and I think 3rd to 4th also... is this something due to the extra power that can be adjusted out with the bowden cable, or did I kill it?
Thanks holeshotholset for the tips on the DVs. Injectors will be next, after airflow. Now I have to plan a turbocharging strategy...
GREASY_BEAST
05-21-2008, 07:32 PM #22I have pictures, and would upload them, but I can't make the filesize small enough... will work on this.
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling system
.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@ Nitrile gloves back on......'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!
) Euro headlightsMods are in the works...
Telecommbrkr
05-21-2008, 09:15 PM #24Any machine shop with a lathe should have no problem whatsoever
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling system
.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@ Nitrile gloves back on......'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!
) Euro headlightsMods are in the works...
GREASY_BEAST
05-21-2008, 09:18 PM #25I would imagine any machine shop that can do precision grinding. I did this by zip-tying a dremel tool to the toolpost of a lathe, using a cutoff wheel on the dremel, and the lathe to spin the DV as well as move the dremel precisely. A shop that is equipped to do this sort of thing would likely have a similar setup, but not as improvisational. And not using a dremel, or zipties. I bet there is also a way to do it with EDM or a laser as well... I'd look around on the cummins forums, I'm sure those guys know where to get them done.. Before this I was thinking of turning up the TC some, but now there is way too much fuel to worry about the top end at all, and I would definitely melt something. It needs air now. Also, be warned, if you do this it smokes like a sonofabitch at idle, and the idle is rough and shakey... IMO its worth it, but I can't imagine this is doing good things for fuel economy. Is there any way to post a picture bigger than 120kb here? I can't get them sized below about 300kb without them being totally illegible.
Telecommbrkr Any machine shop with a lathe should have no problem whatsoever
The DVs are hardened.. maybe they could be cut with carbide, but I didn't have any carbide cutters so i couldnt try it, only hss, and they were way to hard for hss. Thats why I chose to grind them.
EDIT: Also, the carbide cutter would have to be TINY to get in to where the collar is, without getting the seat as well.. these things are miniscule.
EDIT AGAIN: I bet you could do the same thing I did by hand (carefully) using one drill held in a vice to spin the DV, and a dremel with a cutoff wheel to grind the collar. The dremel would have to be held on a table of some sort, and "slid" around so as to only grind the collar. It would be a trick, but I bet it could be done..
GREASY_BEAST
05-21-2008, 09:21 PM #26Telecommbrkr Any machine shop with a lathe should have no problem whatsoever
The DVs are hardened.. maybe they could be cut with carbide, but I didn't have any carbide cutters so i couldnt try it, only hss, and they were way to hard for hss. Thats why I chose to grind them.
EDIT: Also, the carbide cutter would have to be TINY to get in to where the collar is, without getting the seat as well.. these things are miniscule.
EDIT AGAIN: I bet you could do the same thing I did by hand (carefully) using one drill held in a vice to spin the DV, and a dremel with a cutoff wheel to grind the collar. The dremel would have to be held on a table of some sort, and "slid" around so as to only grind the collar. It would be a trick, but I bet it could be done..
GREASY_BEAST EDIT AGAIN: I bet you could do the same thing I did by hand (carefully) using one drill held in a vice to spin the DV, and a dremel with a cutoff wheel to grind the collar. The dremel would have to be held on a table of some sort, and "slid" around so as to only grind the collar. It would be a trick, but I bet it could be done..
Thats basically what I'll do. I'll use my air drill to spin the DV while I hold the dremel by hand.
Idle quality my be due to injection timing. How easily does it start?
ForcedInduction
05-22-2008, 06:10 AM
#28
GREASY_BEAST EDIT AGAIN: I bet you could do the same thing I did by hand (carefully) using one drill held in a vice to spin the DV, and a dremel with a cutoff wheel to grind the collar. The dremel would have to be held on a table of some sort, and "slid" around so as to only grind the collar. It would be a trick, but I bet it could be done..
Thats basically what I'll do. I'll use my air drill to spin the DV while I hold the dremel by hand.
Idle quality my be due to injection timing. How easily does it start?
Very good to hear that you've now got more fuel than you know what to do with. Solving the airflow issues shouldn't be too bad. Heck, the Finns use Holset HX-50's - which is a pretty ginormous turbo for a small MB IDI.
The idle quality might have suffered because often times the idle speed will change when you install a set of cut DV's. Try bumping the idle up just a little... If that doesn't help - I gotta wonder if you created a bit of imbalance since the DV's aren't all cut the same.
Injection timing should probably be advanced a little now that you've got all this extra fuel...but I'm not sure what these IDI's run for timing to begin with...
On edit: What is this 'flare' you're talking about when the tranny shifts? Is it slipping or are the shifts just delayed?
To be honest - this is one area of the superturbo buildup that is a big roadblock for me. There aren't many (any?) people in the US of A that know how to make one of these Merc auto trannies hold up...
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
05-22-2008, 09:12 AM #29Sweet. 8-)
Very good to hear that you've now got more fuel than you know what to do with. Solving the airflow issues shouldn't be too bad. Heck, the Finns use Holset HX-50's - which is a pretty ginormous turbo for a small MB IDI.
The idle quality might have suffered because often times the idle speed will change when you install a set of cut DV's. Try bumping the idle up just a little... If that doesn't help - I gotta wonder if you created a bit of imbalance since the DV's aren't all cut the same.
Injection timing should probably be advanced a little now that you've got all this extra fuel...but I'm not sure what these IDI's run for timing to begin with...
On edit: What is this 'flare' you're talking about when the tranny shifts? Is it slipping or are the shifts just delayed?
To be honest - this is one area of the superturbo buildup that is a big roadblock for me. There aren't many (any?) people in the US of A that know how to make one of these Merc auto trannies hold up...
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
As for the idle, I had a fairly low idle to begin with.. when I rev it up to about 1200rpm it smooths right out (its hard to hold there though :evil: :x ) under load the power is also quite smooth, so I'm not worried about it for now.
GREASY_BEAST
05-22-2008, 11:24 PM #30The tranny flare feels like the transmission is trying to shift up and down at the same time, and therefore giving no resistance because the transmission now "feels" that it has to downshift, but because it is at high rpms, it has to upshift. The effect is more pronounced at higher loads, such as going up a hill. I really have to drive it more to find out for sure. I think a bowden cable adjustment might fix this.
As for the idle, I had a fairly low idle to begin with.. when I rev it up to about 1200rpm it smooths right out (its hard to hold there though :evil: :x ) under load the power is also quite smooth, so I'm not worried about it for now.
How are your EGT's at cruise after installing them?
ForcedInduction
05-23-2008, 02:06 AM
#31
I've got my DV's cut and I'll install them in an hour or so. I'll be sure to post pictures.
How are your EGT's at cruise after installing them?
[attachment=0]<!-- ia0 -->LMN DV 5-22-08 lathe.jpg<!-- ia0 -->[/attachment]
Compare! Not the best but not bad for doing it by hand.
[attachment=1]<!-- ia1 -->LMN DV 5-22-08 DV cut.jpg<!-- ia1 -->[/attachment]
Results? OMG, there is some POWER to be found in these delivery valves! BUT, cutting the collar off is definitely not the way to do it.
The idle went to crap, it lopes like a g@sser with a hot cam.
The throttle is very sensitive.
EGT's cruising the highway used to be around 600*f but now its 900*f.
It smokes like a SOB (There is no possible way it will pass a smoke test now).
My vacuum mysteriously went to crap. It won't stop with vacuum, only the lever and boost psi is all over the map.
But once the turbo hits 15psi, HOLD ON!
I'd bet its easily adding 25-50hp.The real problem is EGTs. The cruise temp is up to 900*f, it idles at 450*f and the engine warmed up to 80*c in record time. Even a little throttle will send temperatures through the roof in a real hurry.
I tried to do a 0-60 but I was already past 1250*F by the top of 2nd gear, if I kept going it would have pegged the pyrometer. :o
Here is a quick WOT burst on the highway from 65-80mph.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87x5gdpASO8
Its night but here is a smoke video anyways. I'll get one in the day as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNGBybBsDBU
I'll be putting the stock DV's back in tomorrow. The idle loping that bad will kill my mounts, if the engine doesn't melt first...
ForcedInduction
05-23-2008, 04:46 AM
#32
You like my lathe? :lol:
[attachment=0]<!-- ia0 -->LMN DV 5-22-08 lathe.jpg<!-- ia0 -->[/attachment]
Compare! Not the best but not bad for doing it by hand.
[attachment=1]<!-- ia1 -->LMN DV 5-22-08 DV cut.jpg<!-- ia1 -->[/attachment]
Results? OMG, there is some POWER to be found in these delivery valves! BUT, cutting the collar off is definitely not the way to do it.
The idle went to crap, it lopes like a g@sser with a hot cam.
The throttle is very sensitive.
EGT's cruising the highway used to be around 600*f but now its 900*f.
It smokes like a SOB (There is no possible way it will pass a smoke test now).
My vacuum mysteriously went to crap. It won't stop with vacuum, only the lever and boost psi is all over the map.
But once the turbo hits 15psi, HOLD ON! I'd bet its easily adding 25-50hp.
The real problem is EGTs. The cruise temp is up to 900*f, it idles at 450*f and the engine warmed up to 80*c in record time. Even a little throttle will send temperatures through the roof in a real hurry.
I tried to do a 0-60 but I was already past 1250*F by the top of 2nd gear, if I kept going it would have pegged the pyrometer. :o
Here is a quick WOT burst on the highway from 65-80mph.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87x5gdpASO8
Its night but here is a smoke video anyways. I'll get one in the day as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNGBybBsDBU
I'll be putting the stock DV's back in tomorrow. The idle loping that bad will kill my mounts, if the engine doesn't melt first...
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
I know I am hungover but all I see is some grindmarks. Can you photochop and show what you changed? I need to find a good mill shop.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
[attachment=1]<!-- ia1 -->view2.jpg<!-- ia1 -->[/attachment]
[attachment=0]<!-- ia0 -->view3.jpg<!-- ia0 -->[/attachment]
ForcedInduction
05-23-2008, 08:23 AM
#34
The picture did turn out a little dark. Try these.
[attachment=1]<!-- ia1 -->view2.jpg<!-- ia1 -->[/attachment]
[attachment=0]<!-- ia0 -->view3.jpg<!-- ia0 -->[/attachment]
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
OIC the MIDDLE collar. Ok I got it now. What about just grinding them down some, not all the way? Greasy did you still have idle issues with the ALDA back on?
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
bgkastCame to me at lunch. Why not grind grooves into the collar? Like 3 grooves?winmutt OIC the MIDDLE collar. Ok I got it now. What about just grinding them down some, not all the way? Greasy did you still have idle issues with the ALDA back on?
That's what I'm thinking, maybe a half collar grind.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
bgkastCame to me at lunch. Why not grind grooves into the collar? Like 3 grooves?winmutt OIC the MIDDLE collar. Ok I got it now. What about just grinding them down some, not all the way? Greasy did you still have idle issues with the ALDA back on?
That's what I'm thinking, maybe a half collar grind.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
I haven't got the ALDA on yet, but I will post results when I do... still worried about what I might have done to my transmission..
GREASY_BEAST
05-23-2008, 10:05 PM #39Nice setup Forced! Glad it worked out. I agree the idle quality is crap with DVs, but I can live with it and the smoke for the power increase. I'll keep a set of stock ones to put in to pass inspection. It doesn't take more than about 15 minutes anyway.. I wish I had one of those injector line sockets..
I haven't got the ALDA on yet, but I will post results when I do... still worried about what I might have done to my transmission..
GREASY_BEAST I can live with it and the smoke for the power increase. I'll keep a set of stock ones to put in to pass inspection. It doesn't take more than about 15 minutes anyway.. I wish I had one of those injector line sockets..
I think I would rather remove the rack limit arm than live with a mount eating idle and twitchy throttle.
You don't need to swap the DV's out, just set the lever stop bolt on the outside of the pump (or adjust the linkage) so you only get about 1/3 throttle.
ForcedInduction
05-24-2008, 12:55 AM
#40
GREASY_BEAST I can live with it and the smoke for the power increase. I'll keep a set of stock ones to put in to pass inspection. It doesn't take more than about 15 minutes anyway.. I wish I had one of those injector line sockets..
I think I would rather remove the rack limit arm than live with a mount eating idle and twitchy throttle.
You don't need to swap the DV's out, just set the lever stop bolt on the outside of the pump (or adjust the linkage) so you only get about 1/3 throttle.
Here is one last video of the cut DV's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUUxhb4Rd9w
ForcedInduction
05-24-2008, 07:57 AM
#43
I put the stock DVs back in. I just couldn't handle the crappy idle and it made driving much more difficult.
Here is one last video of the cut DV's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUUxhb4Rd9w
Torque the valve holders to 35lb/ft.
ForcedInduction
05-28-2008, 04:18 PM
#45
17mm for the lines, 15mm for the valve holders, a magnet to get the DV's out and a pick (or screwdriver) to get the copper washer.
Torque the valve holders to 35lb/ft.
MTUPowerI would do 3 equally spaced. Width of the cut will really determine how much fuel. 3 because an offset in the spacing wont matter as much as 2.winmutt What about griding perpendicular lines into the collar? Any thoughts?I have both my spare MW and the M pump at a injection shop who is investigating what they can do.... I just dropped in today and they suggested two notches (180 degrees from each other) instead of filing or grinding away on the collar. I may soon be doing this, and then testing. If two is not enough, then I'll try four- if that is not enough, then, well you get the idea. I'd also back off the alda to decrease the smoke output at lower rpm. This may be the path to max output from the MW without major hassles & cost.
Look forward to the results. We will almost certainly do this for LeMons if we can keep the EGT down.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
MTUPowerI would do 3 equally spaced. Width of the cut will really determine how much fuel. 3 because an offset in the spacing wont matter as much as 2.winmutt What about griding perpendicular lines into the collar? Any thoughts?I have both my spare MW and the M pump at a injection shop who is investigating what they can do.... I just dropped in today and they suggested two notches (180 degrees from each other) instead of filing or grinding away on the collar. I may soon be doing this, and then testing. If two is not enough, then I'll try four- if that is not enough, then, well you get the idea. I'd also back off the alda to decrease the smoke output at lower rpm. This may be the path to max output from the MW without major hassles & cost.
Look forward to the results. We will almost certainly do this for LeMons if we can keep the EGT down.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
winmutt I would do 3 equally spaced. Width of the cut will really determine how much fuel. 3 because an offset in the spacing wont matter as much as 2.
Don't forget that the DV's are designed to rotate just like the valves in the head. If the grooves aren't exactly spaced it might put a side load on the DV and stop it from rotating or wedge it in the bore.
I wouldn't go all the way like I did the first time. Start with the tiniest change you can make and make very small changes from there. They are quick to change and copper washers are very cheap by the pound so theres no real reason to rush things.
ForcedInduction
05-30-2008, 04:28 PM
#49
winmutt I would do 3 equally spaced. Width of the cut will really determine how much fuel. 3 because an offset in the spacing wont matter as much as 2.
Don't forget that the DV's are designed to rotate just like the valves in the head. If the grooves aren't exactly spaced it might put a side load on the DV and stop it from rotating or wedge it in the bore.
I wouldn't go all the way like I did the first time. Start with the tiniest change you can make and make very small changes from there. They are quick to change and copper washers are very cheap by the pound so theres no real reason to rush things.
Just so I am clear the collars provide a restriction to decrease the fuel flow correct? Do we know how it changes the length or time of the injection pulse? Do you think it would be best to try grinding the collar down half way or to cut groves in it like Winmutt has suggested?
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