Compound Questions
Compound Questions
02-18-2017, 03:34 AM
#1
First question then is regarding the power outputs with a single vs. compounds.
I'm looking at the HX40 for my LP turbo, now they are quite a popular turbo on the 606 and produce some good numbers (seen posts claiming ~500bhp). Now if the HX 40 is capable of getting to that sort of power level with the DieselMeken pump, if I then add in something like the HE221W as my HP turbo, I should gain at the low end and also the boost pressure higher up the rev range, but will I loose power at the top end too from the peak figures?
Thanks in advance all!
Looking at some turbo stuff while I've got a quiet period at work... I'll use this thread for some discussions relating to my compound thoughts.
First question then is regarding the power outputs with a single vs. compounds.
I'm looking at the HX40 for my LP turbo, now they are quite a popular turbo on the 606 and produce some good numbers (seen posts claiming ~500bhp). Now if the HX 40 is capable of getting to that sort of power level with the DieselMeken pump, if I then add in something like the HE221W as my HP turbo, I should gain at the low end and also the boost pressure higher up the rev range, but will I loose power at the top end too from the peak figures?
Thanks in advance all!
02-18-2017, 05:37 AM
#3
I have been testing this system too, i use a GT23V and a HX35W #12 twin scroll turbine. and in a 605 engine.
I can´t say it rock´s but i´m still dealing with the controls of the thing, but compared to the HX alone is a huge difference. or the Garret alone.
Engine behaves well in low idle by 1500 rpm .5 bar and by 2000 it hits 1.3/1.5 depending which gear and keep going to 2 bar consistently from 2.5 k untill 6k.
As i said i opted to have twin operation instead of one at a time style, but controling them is been quite demanding, to say the least.
my problema is with the unloading of the HP to match the wake of the LP. i still haven´t found the right springs and actuators.
another issue to adress "is the no turbo at all" until engine reaches 1.5k, due to excessive EGP, from my trials engine exibit more tq in N/A condition than with some boost.
in time all this problems will be solved. i belive
which type of bypass valve are u intending to use?
FD,
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hy,
I have been testing this system too, i use a GT23V and a HX35W #12 twin scroll turbine. and in a 605 engine.
I can´t say it rock´s but i´m still dealing with the controls of the thing, but compared to the HX alone is a huge difference. or the Garret alone.
Engine behaves well in low idle by 1500 rpm .5 bar and by 2000 it hits 1.3/1.5 depending which gear and keep going to 2 bar consistently from 2.5 k untill 6k.
As i said i opted to have twin operation instead of one at a time style, but controling them is been quite demanding, to say the least.
my problema is with the unloading of the HP to match the wake of the LP. i still haven´t found the right springs and actuators.
another issue to adress "is the no turbo at all" until engine reaches 1.5k, due to excessive EGP, from my trials engine exibit more tq in N/A condition than with some boost.
in time all this problems will be solved. i belive
which type of bypass valve are u intending to use?
FD,
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02-18-2017, 06:14 AM
#4
(02-18-2017, 05:37 AM)barrote hy,
I have been testing this system too, i use a GT23V and a HX35W #12 twin scroll turbine. and in a 605 engine.
I can´t say it rock´s but i´m still dealing with the controls of the thing, but compared to the HX alone is a huge difference. or the Garret alone.
Engine behaves well in low idle by 1500 rpm .5 bar and by 2000 it hits 1.3/1.5 depending which gear and keep going to 2 bar consistently from 2.5 k untill 6k.
As i said i opted to have twin operation instead of one at a time style, but controling them is been quite demanding, to say the least.
my problema is with the unloading of the HP to match the wake of the LP. i still haven´t found the right springs and actuators. Can you explain this bit again?
another issue to adress "is the no turbo at all" until engine reaches 1.5k, due to excessive EGP, from my trials engine exibit more tq in N/A condition than with some boost. This shouldn't be too bad with my planned 7.5mm pump?
in time all this problems will be solved. i belive
which type of bypass valve are u intending to use?
I'm not intending on using one on the intake side to bypass the HP turbo... but wondering about one on the exhaust side to have less restriction around the exhaust side of the HP turbo.
(02-18-2017, 05:37 AM)barrote hy,
I have been testing this system too, i use a GT23V and a HX35W #12 twin scroll turbine. and in a 605 engine.
I can´t say it rock´s but i´m still dealing with the controls of the thing, but compared to the HX alone is a huge difference. or the Garret alone.
Engine behaves well in low idle by 1500 rpm .5 bar and by 2000 it hits 1.3/1.5 depending which gear and keep going to 2 bar consistently from 2.5 k untill 6k.
As i said i opted to have twin operation instead of one at a time style, but controling them is been quite demanding, to say the least.
my problema is with the unloading of the HP to match the wake of the LP. i still haven´t found the right springs and actuators. Can you explain this bit again?
another issue to adress "is the no turbo at all" until engine reaches 1.5k, due to excessive EGP, from my trials engine exibit more tq in N/A condition than with some boost. This shouldn't be too bad with my planned 7.5mm pump?
in time all this problems will be solved. i belive
which type of bypass valve are u intending to use?
I'm not intending on using one on the intake side to bypass the HP turbo... but wondering about one on the exhaust side to have less restriction around the exhaust side of the HP turbo.
02-18-2017, 10:20 AM
#5
(02-18-2017, 06:14 AM)ross(02-18-2017, 05:37 AM)barrote but controling them is been quite demanding, to say the least.
my problema is with the unloading of the HP to match the wake of the LP. i still haven´t found the right springs and actuators. Can you explain this bit again?
another issue to adress "is the no turbo at all" until engine reaches 1.5k, due to excessive EGP, from my trials engine exibit more tq in N/A condition than with some boost. This shouldn't be too bad with my planned 7.5mm pump?
in time all this problems will be solved. i belive
which type of bypass valve are u intending to use?
I'm not intending on using one on the intake side to bypass the HP turbo... but wondering about one on the exhaust side to have less restriction around the exhaust side of the HP turbo.
I think there are 2 ways in the compound system, one at a time and , both at same time.(my system is mechanic, no electrics)
I planned both at same time, but in this case the small VNT reaches vane opening (max set boost) at a point na then exaust should be directed to the big one which should blow into the small one, but opening of the WG valve i used is being dificult to set exactly the right time. (right time is when the big one starts to blow real boost) .
With or without 7.5 or 8mil or whatever , this engines have more TQ untill 1500RPM in N/A condition (exaust open, no restriction) than they have with a turbo in it , even if is a gt17, cause they are IDI. To collect the most tq out of it in the RPM range , works better opening the exaust until a certain RPM(some CDI´s do the same)
was talking about exaust by pass, there is the need to open a door in the gas stream to the LP , can be a flap valve or a WG or whatever u have in mind.
In the end what maters is the EGP numbers u got right, so when u assembler the system u got to measure EGP so that one can understand whats going on.
last time i checked i was in 1/1.2 relation (boost /egp) but meanwhyle i lost EGP probe, got to fix it and check some other things though.
FD,
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(02-18-2017, 06:14 AM)ross(02-18-2017, 05:37 AM)barrote but controling them is been quite demanding, to say the least.
my problema is with the unloading of the HP to match the wake of the LP. i still haven´t found the right springs and actuators. Can you explain this bit again?
another issue to adress "is the no turbo at all" until engine reaches 1.5k, due to excessive EGP, from my trials engine exibit more tq in N/A condition than with some boost. This shouldn't be too bad with my planned 7.5mm pump?
in time all this problems will be solved. i belive
which type of bypass valve are u intending to use?
I'm not intending on using one on the intake side to bypass the HP turbo... but wondering about one on the exhaust side to have less restriction around the exhaust side of the HP turbo.
I think there are 2 ways in the compound system, one at a time and , both at same time.(my system is mechanic, no electrics)
I planned both at same time, but in this case the small VNT reaches vane opening (max set boost) at a point na then exaust should be directed to the big one which should blow into the small one, but opening of the WG valve i used is being dificult to set exactly the right time. (right time is when the big one starts to blow real boost) .
With or without 7.5 or 8mil or whatever , this engines have more TQ untill 1500RPM in N/A condition (exaust open, no restriction) than they have with a turbo in it , even if is a gt17, cause they are IDI. To collect the most tq out of it in the RPM range , works better opening the exaust until a certain RPM(some CDI´s do the same)
was talking about exaust by pass, there is the need to open a door in the gas stream to the LP , can be a flap valve or a WG or whatever u have in mind.
In the end what maters is the EGP numbers u got right, so when u assembler the system u got to measure EGP so that one can understand whats going on.
last time i checked i was in 1/1.2 relation (boost /egp) but meanwhyle i lost EGP probe, got to fix it and check some other things though.
FD,
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02-18-2017, 12:58 PM
#6
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
I want to just add a quick comment from my experience and its that the boost response will not be as quick as the small turbo alone or by it self because now it is being restricted by the 2nd turbo in compound form. I have found that boost can be built just about as low but it definitely take more time to get there.
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
02-18-2017, 01:41 PM
#7
But that is not the problem in my build. The #12 housing in the HX alow enough flow to avoid choke early. And response is same as before with the same single.
My problem is about the vanes being closed cause i use it with a press actuator. I'm still buzzing a way of opening them in low idle, untill gradually boost benefits the EGP rise.
What set up do u have?
FD,
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I agree with u.
But that is not the problem in my build. The #12 housing in the HX alow enough flow to avoid choke early. And response is same as before with the same single.
My problem is about the vanes being closed cause i use it with a press actuator. I'm still buzzing a way of opening them in low idle, untill gradually boost benefits the EGP rise.
What set up do u have?
FD,
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02-18-2017, 03:30 PM
#8
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
I am responding to original poster.
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
02-18-2017, 05:10 PM
#9
A compound system will not make the peak hp a single turbo will (of relative sizes), but the usable power range is so much greater it really outweighs the small hp loss. Unless it's in a competition engine where every last hp counts
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
As long as you have a big enough wastegste to flow around the HP charger, there should be no loss at upper rpms.
A compound system will not make the peak hp a single turbo will (of relative sizes), but the usable power range is so much greater it really outweighs the small hp loss. Unless it's in a competition engine where every last hp counts
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
02-19-2017, 02:09 AM
#10
'77 300D, 617.912, HY35 15psi, 3" side pipe, maxed out stock MW pump (Sold, now converted into a ute)
'87 300TD, 603.960, questionable mods from the PO including a ghetto 3" straight pipe
I'm planning something similar on my 603, I've already got a HX40 Super for the LP. I was planning to use an HX30 for the HP but reading into it more, maybe I should go smaller. HE221 maybe?
'77 300D, 617.912, HY35 15psi, 3" side pipe, maxed out stock MW pump (Sold, now converted into a ute)
'87 300TD, 603.960, questionable mods from the PO including a ghetto 3" straight pipe
02-19-2017, 03:16 AM
#11
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...p?tid=7536
I myself used not2fast calculator and one excel calculator when I picked up my turbos (master power r545 and master power 6568). These seem to work pretty nicely together.
Here is some good info and links when calculating turbos
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...p?tid=7536
I myself used not2fast calculator and one excel calculator when I picked up my turbos (master power r545 and master power 6568). These seem to work pretty nicely together.
02-19-2017, 09:25 AM
#12
But, as discussed by everyone above, the LP compressor pressure should have influence because you want the HP turbo to come online as soon as possible, as this is what will cause the LP turbo to come online quicker (because gas flow though engine increases when HP turbo comes online, causing LP turbo to come online. If that makes sense.. lol
So perhaps a HP turbine bypass WG, referencing manifold EMP, with also reference to LP compressor pressure holding that WG closed slightly longer to promote the LP to come online, can be done with those WG's which have ports top and bottom, and/or with some kind of electric solenoid to interrupt one or both of the signals to the WG actuator, but preference is completely mechanical as people above said, with minimal smoke. Also factoring in complete compound build to be under £1000GBP for me anyway,
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
My plan was a 60mm WG to bypass the HP turbine (HY35 9cm2), and back into the LP turbine, with that 60mm WG referenced from the manifold, and the spring set to start to open then manifold EMP reaches predetermined pressure (i.e. when the HP turbine becomes a bottleneck [HX52 16cm2] ).
But, as discussed by everyone above, the LP compressor pressure should have influence because you want the HP turbo to come online as soon as possible, as this is what will cause the LP turbo to come online quicker (because gas flow though engine increases when HP turbo comes online, causing LP turbo to come online. If that makes sense.. lol
So perhaps a HP turbine bypass WG, referencing manifold EMP, with also reference to LP compressor pressure holding that WG closed slightly longer to promote the LP to come online, can be done with those WG's which have ports top and bottom, and/or with some kind of electric solenoid to interrupt one or both of the signals to the WG actuator, but preference is completely mechanical as people above said, with minimal smoke. Also factoring in complete compound build to be under £1000GBP for me anyway,
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
02-19-2017, 11:34 AM
#13
Imagine one wants the LP compressor to benefit from the HP flow, (series with each other) how would u limit the max boost? expecially if one uses a VNT type as HP?
FD,
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That is what some people use, others use flap valves, as far as i have seen here and there. The hell is the control detail...
Imagine one wants the LP compressor to benefit from the HP flow, (series with each other) how would u limit the max boost? expecially if one uses a VNT type as HP?
FD,
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02-20-2017, 05:43 AM
#14
(02-19-2017, 11:34 AM)barrote That is what some people use, others use flap valves, as far as i have seen here and there. The hell is the control detail...
Imagine one wants the LP compressor to benefit from the HP flow, (series with each other) how would u limit the max boost? expecially if one uses a VNT type as HP?
The max boost should be limited by the LP turbo wastegate.
Fajita an hx30 will work ok, but I think you want really quick spool in a street car. It is pretty easy to figure out from maps when a given turbo will spool on a given motor, although the housing size complicates things. It is a lot harder to figure out how the hp turbo behaves as it is fed air at varying densities by the large turbo at different rpms.
I actually found that an he451 (non vgt) which is a bigger compressor (67/93) than an hx40 super but similar turbine, is a bit small for an LP turbo at my target fuel of 150cc. This is because it will only flow enough air (80 lb) at a PR of 3.5. The system would be better and easier to control if I had a bigger lp turbo that would allow the small turbo to stay on its map a bit more.
Doing this sequential setup means my little turbo is really only making any pressure ratio at lower rpms. So the small turbo can be truly tiny. In my case, it would only need to flow 26 lbmin, which an he200 will do. I think an he221 will spool faster than an hx30, which is why I suggested it to you. Blacksmoke had a 221 paired with an hx50 and a comoressor bypass for awhile, but I think no one really ever gets compressor bypasses to work well, and it was replaced.
Lots of different stuff will work, but I think you really want a bigger LP turbo than you would normally use, to keep the hp turbo pulling a bit all the way up.
You may find this useful:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w...6dLBUJl3Sw
This post was last modified: 02-20-2017, 06:21 AM by atypicalguy.
atypicalguy
02-20-2017, 05:43 AM #14(02-19-2017, 11:34 AM)barrote That is what some people use, others use flap valves, as far as i have seen here and there. The hell is the control detail...
Imagine one wants the LP compressor to benefit from the HP flow, (series with each other) how would u limit the max boost? expecially if one uses a VNT type as HP?
The max boost should be limited by the LP turbo wastegate.
Fajita an hx30 will work ok, but I think you want really quick spool in a street car. It is pretty easy to figure out from maps when a given turbo will spool on a given motor, although the housing size complicates things. It is a lot harder to figure out how the hp turbo behaves as it is fed air at varying densities by the large turbo at different rpms.
I actually found that an he451 (non vgt) which is a bigger compressor (67/93) than an hx40 super but similar turbine, is a bit small for an LP turbo at my target fuel of 150cc. This is because it will only flow enough air (80 lb) at a PR of 3.5. The system would be better and easier to control if I had a bigger lp turbo that would allow the small turbo to stay on its map a bit more.
Doing this sequential setup means my little turbo is really only making any pressure ratio at lower rpms. So the small turbo can be truly tiny. In my case, it would only need to flow 26 lbmin, which an he200 will do. I think an he221 will spool faster than an hx30, which is why I suggested it to you. Blacksmoke had a 221 paired with an hx50 and a comoressor bypass for awhile, but I think no one really ever gets compressor bypasses to work well, and it was replaced.
Lots of different stuff will work, but I think you really want a bigger LP turbo than you would normally use, to keep the hp turbo pulling a bit all the way up.
You may find this useful:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w...6dLBUJl3Sw
02-20-2017, 08:17 AM
#15
thats something i dont get here, after all learning everyday, why such a huge LP machine, as far as i found in my system the HX35 as LP only wake decently by 3k , untill there only the HP is doing the trick, and it feels it needs fuel , i already have 150cc (605). (at wot 450º EGT , 2,5 EGP /2,5 boost . not so much overheating and nothing melted yet)
could u explain a bit about the use of such a huge machine, and such a diff for the HP, 220 is about the size of a stock 605 turbo, good for nothing , i know the compressor and turbine has some 20 years dif , but doesn´t soud good to me. it would be of good help if u share your points...
FD,
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sory , sory , something is missing to me.
thats something i dont get here, after all learning everyday, why such a huge LP machine, as far as i found in my system the HX35 as LP only wake decently by 3k , untill there only the HP is doing the trick, and it feels it needs fuel , i already have 150cc (605). (at wot 450º EGT , 2,5 EGP /2,5 boost . not so much overheating and nothing melted yet)
could u explain a bit about the use of such a huge machine, and such a diff for the HP, 220 is about the size of a stock 605 turbo, good for nothing , i know the compressor and turbine has some 20 years dif , but doesn´t soud good to me. it would be of good help if u share your points...
FD,
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02-20-2017, 10:29 AM
#16
(02-20-2017, 05:43 AM)atypicalguyYesterday I was at my garage and dug up my old TD04-13t I used on my 617, got curious and looked up compressor maps. Pretty close to HX25/HE221, and its got a non gated turbine housing. I may just slap some new bearings and seals in that and run it with the Super 40...(02-19-2017, 11:34 AM)barrote That is what some people use, others use flap valves, as far as i have seen here and there. The hell is the control detail...
Imagine one wants the LP compressor to benefit from the HP flow, (series with each other) how would u limit the max boost? expecially if one uses a VNT type as HP?
The max boost should be limited by the LP turbo wastegate.
Fajita an hx30 will work ok, but I think you want really quick spool in a street car. It is pretty easy to figure out from maps when a given turbo will spool on a given motor, although the housing size complicates things. It is a lot harder to figure out how the hp turbo behaves as it is fed air at varying densities by the large turbo at different rpms.
I actually found that an he451 (non vgt) which is a bigger compressor (67/93) than an hx40 super but similar turbine, is a bit small for an LP turbo at my target fuel of 150cc. This is because it will only flow enough air (80 lb) at a PR of 3.5. The system would be better and easier to control if I had a bigger lp turbo that would allow the small turbo to stay on its map a bit more.
Doing this sequential setup means my little turbo is really only making any pressure ratio at lower rpms. So the small turbo can be truly tiny. In my case, it would only need to flow 26 lbmin, which an he200 will do. I think an he221 will spool faster than an hx30, which is why I suggested it to you. Blacksmoke had a 221 paired with an hx50 and a comoressor bypass for awhile, but I think no one really ever gets compressor bypasses to work well, and it was replaced.
Lots of different stuff will work, but I think you really want a bigger LP turbo than you would normally use, to keep the hp turbo pulling a bit all the way up.
You may find this useful:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w...6dLBUJl3Sw
This post was last modified: 02-20-2017, 10:30 AM by mrfajita.
'77 300D, 617.912, HY35 15psi, 3" side pipe, maxed out stock MW pump (Sold, now converted into a ute)
'87 300TD, 603.960, questionable mods from the PO including a ghetto 3" straight pipe
(02-20-2017, 05:43 AM)atypicalguyYesterday I was at my garage and dug up my old TD04-13t I used on my 617, got curious and looked up compressor maps. Pretty close to HX25/HE221, and its got a non gated turbine housing. I may just slap some new bearings and seals in that and run it with the Super 40...(02-19-2017, 11:34 AM)barrote That is what some people use, others use flap valves, as far as i have seen here and there. The hell is the control detail...
Imagine one wants the LP compressor to benefit from the HP flow, (series with each other) how would u limit the max boost? expecially if one uses a VNT type as HP?
The max boost should be limited by the LP turbo wastegate.
Fajita an hx30 will work ok, but I think you want really quick spool in a street car. It is pretty easy to figure out from maps when a given turbo will spool on a given motor, although the housing size complicates things. It is a lot harder to figure out how the hp turbo behaves as it is fed air at varying densities by the large turbo at different rpms.
I actually found that an he451 (non vgt) which is a bigger compressor (67/93) than an hx40 super but similar turbine, is a bit small for an LP turbo at my target fuel of 150cc. This is because it will only flow enough air (80 lb) at a PR of 3.5. The system would be better and easier to control if I had a bigger lp turbo that would allow the small turbo to stay on its map a bit more.
Doing this sequential setup means my little turbo is really only making any pressure ratio at lower rpms. So the small turbo can be truly tiny. In my case, it would only need to flow 26 lbmin, which an he200 will do. I think an he221 will spool faster than an hx30, which is why I suggested it to you. Blacksmoke had a 221 paired with an hx50 and a comoressor bypass for awhile, but I think no one really ever gets compressor bypasses to work well, and it was replaced.
Lots of different stuff will work, but I think you really want a bigger LP turbo than you would normally use, to keep the hp turbo pulling a bit all the way up.
You may find this useful:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w...6dLBUJl3Sw
'77 300D, 617.912, HY35 15psi, 3" side pipe, maxed out stock MW pump (Sold, now converted into a ute)
'87 300TD, 603.960, questionable mods from the PO including a ghetto 3" straight pipe
02-20-2017, 11:30 AM
#17
I messed around with a calculator. Makes me think maybe I shoukd have gone even smaller with the little turbo, or larger with the large turbo. An he200 would have the big turbo lit earlier, peaking at around 26lb/min corrected flow. Then it gets bypassed anyway.
This one has an hx52 map pasted in, but the mass parameter is not scaled properly. You might want to take a look at the formula for correcting the hp turbo mass flow based upon its intake pressure.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/i3nswav2j7mstn....xlsx?dl=0
atypicalguy
02-20-2017, 11:30 AM #17It could work. You may want to take a look at that spreadsheet in excel. There are already many turbo maps in there. Otherwise copy and paste the image, and set its background to transparent. You can scale the map inage so the axes line up with the plotted corrected hp turbo mass flow, and figure out whether it is on its map across the rpm range as the lp PR varies.
I messed around with a calculator. Makes me think maybe I shoukd have gone even smaller with the little turbo, or larger with the large turbo. An he200 would have the big turbo lit earlier, peaking at around 26lb/min corrected flow. Then it gets bypassed anyway.
This one has an hx52 map pasted in, but the mass parameter is not scaled properly. You might want to take a look at the formula for correcting the hp turbo mass flow based upon its intake pressure.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/i3nswav2j7mstn....xlsx?dl=0
02-20-2017, 01:48 PM
#18
(02-20-2017, 08:17 AM)barrote sory , sory , something is missing to me.
thats something i dont get here, after all learning everyday, why such a huge LP machine, as far as i found in my system the HX35 as LP only wake decently by 3k , untill there only the HP is doing the trick, and it feels it needs fuel , i already have 150cc (605). (at wot 450º EGT , 2,5 EGP /2,5 boost . not so much overheating and nothing melted yet)
could u explain a bit about the use of such a huge machine, and such a diff for the HP, 220 is about the size of a stock 605 turbo, good for nothing , i know the compressor and turbine has some 20 years dif , but doesn´t soud good to me. it would be of good help if u share your points...
If you want sequential turbo, first little, then big turbo takes over. For this, the small turbo is bypassed at high rpm. Wastegate bypasses the turbine, and you hope the smal turbo is spinning fast enough for a PR 1.0 to move all the required air through the small compressor. This is like most street setups, small turbo early, big turbo late in rpm range. If you have a smaller Large turbo, you can light it up with a smaller hp turbo, but it will require a lot of boost from the large turbo to get enough air kg into the motor at high rpm. When large turbo is at high boost, small turbo cannot add much without too much total boost. So small turbo needs to spin, but not too fast. Tricky.
In true compound, both turbos operate at low pressure all the time. The pressure ratios multiply to give a high total boost all rpm. The large turbo should flow max required air kg at pr 2, not pr 3.5 or 4. So small turbo can still add some boost, and will not block compressor path. So large turbo needs to be quite large to do pr 2 at 80 lb/min, in my case with 606. An he451 does 80 lb/min at pr 3.5 for instance, and it is far larger than hx40. Still not big enough for true compound setup.
I will build mine sequential, because manifold is done. But if I did it again I would pick hx52 I think, with 70mm turbine, or larger, eg hx60, for 606 with 150cc/1000 injections per cylinder.
atypicalguy
02-20-2017, 01:48 PM #18(02-20-2017, 08:17 AM)barrote sory , sory , something is missing to me.
thats something i dont get here, after all learning everyday, why such a huge LP machine, as far as i found in my system the HX35 as LP only wake decently by 3k , untill there only the HP is doing the trick, and it feels it needs fuel , i already have 150cc (605). (at wot 450º EGT , 2,5 EGP /2,5 boost . not so much overheating and nothing melted yet)
could u explain a bit about the use of such a huge machine, and such a diff for the HP, 220 is about the size of a stock 605 turbo, good for nothing , i know the compressor and turbine has some 20 years dif , but doesn´t soud good to me. it would be of good help if u share your points...
If you want sequential turbo, first little, then big turbo takes over. For this, the small turbo is bypassed at high rpm. Wastegate bypasses the turbine, and you hope the smal turbo is spinning fast enough for a PR 1.0 to move all the required air through the small compressor. This is like most street setups, small turbo early, big turbo late in rpm range. If you have a smaller Large turbo, you can light it up with a smaller hp turbo, but it will require a lot of boost from the large turbo to get enough air kg into the motor at high rpm. When large turbo is at high boost, small turbo cannot add much without too much total boost. So small turbo needs to spin, but not too fast. Tricky.
In true compound, both turbos operate at low pressure all the time. The pressure ratios multiply to give a high total boost all rpm. The large turbo should flow max required air kg at pr 2, not pr 3.5 or 4. So small turbo can still add some boost, and will not block compressor path. So large turbo needs to be quite large to do pr 2 at 80 lb/min, in my case with 606. An he451 does 80 lb/min at pr 3.5 for instance, and it is far larger than hx40. Still not big enough for true compound setup.
I will build mine sequential, because manifold is done. But if I did it again I would pick hx52 I think, with 70mm turbine, or larger, eg hx60, for 606 with 150cc/1000 injections per cylinder.
02-20-2017, 02:51 PM
#19
(02-20-2017, 01:48 PM)atypicalguy(02-20-2017, 08:17 AM)barrote sory , sory , something is missing to me.
thats something i dont get here, after all learning everyday, why such a huge LP machine, as far as i found in my system the HX35 as LP only wake decently by 3k , untill there only the HP is doing the trick, and it feels it needs fuel , i already have 150cc (605). (at wot 450º EGT , 2,5 EGP /2,5 boost . not so much overheating and nothing melted yet)
could u explain a bit about the use of such a huge machine, and such a diff for the HP, 220 is about the size of a stock 605 turbo, good for nothing , i know the compressor and turbine has some 20 years dif , but doesn´t soud good to me. it would be of good help if u share your points...
If you want sequential turbo, first little, then big turbo takes over. For this, the small turbo is bypassed at high rpm. Wastegate bypasses the turbine, and you hope the smal turbo is spinning fast enough for a PR 1.0 to move all the required air through the small compressor. This is like most street setups, small turbo early, big turbo late in rpm range. If you have a smaller Large turbo, you can light it up with a smaller hp turbo, but it will require a lot of boost from the large turbo to get enough air kg into the motor at high rpm. When large turbo is at high boost, small turbo cannot add much without too much total boost. So small turbo needs to spin, but not too fast. Tricky.
In true compound, both turbos operate at low pressure all the time. The pressure ratios multiply to give a high total boost all rpm. The large turbo should flow max required air kg at pr 2, not pr 3.5 or 4. So small turbo can still add some boost, and will not block compressor path. So large turbo needs to be quite large to do pr 2 at 80 lb/min, in my case with 606. An he451 does 80 lb/min at pr 3.5 for instance, and it is far larger than hx40. Still not big enough for true compound setup.
I will build mine sequential, because manifold is done. But if I did it again I would pick hx52 I think, with 70mm turbine, or larger, eg hx60, for 606 with 150cc/1000 injections per cylinder.
Hey man do you have a thread or photo repository for your build? Sounds good!
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
(02-20-2017, 01:48 PM)atypicalguy(02-20-2017, 08:17 AM)barrote sory , sory , something is missing to me.
thats something i dont get here, after all learning everyday, why such a huge LP machine, as far as i found in my system the HX35 as LP only wake decently by 3k , untill there only the HP is doing the trick, and it feels it needs fuel , i already have 150cc (605). (at wot 450º EGT , 2,5 EGP /2,5 boost . not so much overheating and nothing melted yet)
could u explain a bit about the use of such a huge machine, and such a diff for the HP, 220 is about the size of a stock 605 turbo, good for nothing , i know the compressor and turbine has some 20 years dif , but doesn´t soud good to me. it would be of good help if u share your points...
If you want sequential turbo, first little, then big turbo takes over. For this, the small turbo is bypassed at high rpm. Wastegate bypasses the turbine, and you hope the smal turbo is spinning fast enough for a PR 1.0 to move all the required air through the small compressor. This is like most street setups, small turbo early, big turbo late in rpm range. If you have a smaller Large turbo, you can light it up with a smaller hp turbo, but it will require a lot of boost from the large turbo to get enough air kg into the motor at high rpm. When large turbo is at high boost, small turbo cannot add much without too much total boost. So small turbo needs to spin, but not too fast. Tricky.
In true compound, both turbos operate at low pressure all the time. The pressure ratios multiply to give a high total boost all rpm. The large turbo should flow max required air kg at pr 2, not pr 3.5 or 4. So small turbo can still add some boost, and will not block compressor path. So large turbo needs to be quite large to do pr 2 at 80 lb/min, in my case with 606. An he451 does 80 lb/min at pr 3.5 for instance, and it is far larger than hx40. Still not big enough for true compound setup.
I will build mine sequential, because manifold is done. But if I did it again I would pick hx52 I think, with 70mm turbine, or larger, eg hx60, for 606 with 150cc/1000 injections per cylinder.
Hey man do you have a thread or photo repository for your build? Sounds good!
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
02-20-2017, 04:53 PM
#20
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3i8ewv46je7cr...dDHOa?dl=0
atypicalguy
02-20-2017, 04:53 PM #20My house is destroyed, and the car is stuck in garage behind a pile of rubble from the sewer trench, without any electricity. But here is the manifold pyry takkunen built for it.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3i8ewv46je7cr...dDHOa?dl=0
02-22-2017, 08:03 AM
#21
(02-18-2017, 05:37 AM)barrote hy,
I have been testing this system too, i use a GT23V and a HX35W #12 twin scroll turbine. and in a 605 engine.
I can´t say it rock´s but i´m still dealing with the controls of the thing, but compared to the HX alone is a huge difference. or the Garret alone.
Engine behaves well in low idle by 1500 rpm .5 bar and by 2000 it hits 1.3/1.5 depending which gear and keep going to 2 bar consistently from 2.5 k untill 6k.
As i said i opted to have twin operation instead of one at a time style, but controling them is been quite demanding, to say the least.
my problema is with the unloading of the HP to match the wake of the LP. i still haven´t found the right springs and actuators.
another issue to adress "is the no turbo at all" until engine reaches 1.5k, due to excessive EGP, from my trials engine exibit more tq in N/A condition than with some boost.
in time all this problems will be solved. i belive
which type of bypass valve are u intending to use?
Maybe I should look at at least leaving space for a bypass of the LP turbine to start with upto ~1500rpm? Have it normally open and close when the HP starts making ~0.5 Bar?
Are you running yours as a compound (both together) or a sequential (one/overlap/second)?
I really don't know about what kind of bypass yet, I'm only just starting to look into it. So I'm open to suggestions and ideas.
This post was last modified: 02-22-2017, 08:04 AM by ross.
(02-18-2017, 05:37 AM)barrote hy,
I have been testing this system too, i use a GT23V and a HX35W #12 twin scroll turbine. and in a 605 engine.
I can´t say it rock´s but i´m still dealing with the controls of the thing, but compared to the HX alone is a huge difference. or the Garret alone.
Engine behaves well in low idle by 1500 rpm .5 bar and by 2000 it hits 1.3/1.5 depending which gear and keep going to 2 bar consistently from 2.5 k untill 6k.
As i said i opted to have twin operation instead of one at a time style, but controling them is been quite demanding, to say the least.
my problema is with the unloading of the HP to match the wake of the LP. i still haven´t found the right springs and actuators.
another issue to adress "is the no turbo at all" until engine reaches 1.5k, due to excessive EGP, from my trials engine exibit more tq in N/A condition than with some boost.
in time all this problems will be solved. i belive
which type of bypass valve are u intending to use?
Maybe I should look at at least leaving space for a bypass of the LP turbine to start with upto ~1500rpm? Have it normally open and close when the HP starts making ~0.5 Bar?
Are you running yours as a compound (both together) or a sequential (one/overlap/second)?
I really don't know about what kind of bypass yet, I'm only just starting to look into it. So I'm open to suggestions and ideas.
02-22-2017, 08:08 AM
#22
(02-18-2017, 05:10 PM)MFSuper90 As long as you have a big enough wastegste to flow around the HP charger, there should be no loss at upper rpms.
A compound system will not make the peak hp a single turbo will (of relative sizes), but the usable power range is so much greater it really outweighs the small hp loss. Unless it's in a competition engine where every last hp counts
Its going in a 2000Kg offroader on 37" tyres so whilst nice peak numbers are good for bragging rights, the full usability of a compound turbo setup torque curve is far more useful for steady power.
(02-18-2017, 05:10 PM)MFSuper90 As long as you have a big enough wastegste to flow around the HP charger, there should be no loss at upper rpms.
A compound system will not make the peak hp a single turbo will (of relative sizes), but the usable power range is so much greater it really outweighs the small hp loss. Unless it's in a competition engine where every last hp counts
Its going in a 2000Kg offroader on 37" tyres so whilst nice peak numbers are good for bragging rights, the full usability of a compound turbo setup torque curve is far more useful for steady power.
02-22-2017, 09:59 AM
#23
(02-18-2017, 05:37 AM)barrote hy,
I have been testing this system too, i use a GT23V and a HX35W #12 twin scroll turbine. and in a 605 engine.
I can´t say it rock´s but i´m still dealing with the controls of the thing, but compared to the HX alone is a huge difference. or the Garret alone.
Engine behaves well in low idle by 1500 rpm .5 bar and by 2000 it hits 1.3/1.5 depending which gear and keep going to 2 bar consistently from 2.5 k untill 6k.
As i said i opted to have twin operation instead of one at a time style, but controling them is been quite demanding, to say the least.
my problema is with the unloading of the HP to match the wake of the LP. i still haven´t found the right springs and actuators.
another issue to adress "is the no turbo at all" until engine reaches 1.5k, due to excessive EGP, from my trials engine exibit more tq in N/A condition than with some boost.
in time all this problems will be solved. i belive
which type of bypass valve are u intending to use?
Maybe I should look at at least leaving space for a bypass of the LP turbine to start with upto ~1500rpm? Have it normally open and close when the HP starts making ~0.5 Bar?
Are you running yours as a compound (both together) or a sequential (one/overlap/second)?
I really don't know about what kind of bypass yet, I'm only just starting to look into it. So I'm open to suggestions and ideas.
[/quote]
I use the HP (first one) is as if was only one. The LP which is conected to the exaust side of HP , run´s freelly.
The waste gate(38mm) is set before HP and bleeds to LP by a T joint.
The HP charger breeths through the HP, once the LP kick in , the LP will use ram effect from the LP, such that pressure ratio is within 2.
when the LP is blowing pressure ratio of 1.5 system should have 3.5 bar... and 3bar EGP or lower. more or less losses.
But at the moment i´m experiencing some issues , first was the vane ring that was incorectly set, then fix it , then installed a stronguer Spring in the WG, wich is very hard to reach . then it faced vibration problems , then EGP probe clogged , then i dont have time to correct... and it pulls a way better than with only any of those, i mean through the REV range.
anyway i have 150cc , and i suspect is not enough fuel at high end. it has a pretty decente kick but it is not proven that it works better than a HX crap alone.
u ca see the thing here
at the time was not finished, but u can have a idea...
This post was last modified: 02-22-2017, 10:00 AM by barrote.
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
[quote pid='85109' dateline='1487768624']
(02-18-2017, 05:37 AM)barrote hy,
I have been testing this system too, i use a GT23V and a HX35W #12 twin scroll turbine. and in a 605 engine.
I can´t say it rock´s but i´m still dealing with the controls of the thing, but compared to the HX alone is a huge difference. or the Garret alone.
Engine behaves well in low idle by 1500 rpm .5 bar and by 2000 it hits 1.3/1.5 depending which gear and keep going to 2 bar consistently from 2.5 k untill 6k.
As i said i opted to have twin operation instead of one at a time style, but controling them is been quite demanding, to say the least.
my problema is with the unloading of the HP to match the wake of the LP. i still haven´t found the right springs and actuators.
another issue to adress "is the no turbo at all" until engine reaches 1.5k, due to excessive EGP, from my trials engine exibit more tq in N/A condition than with some boost.
in time all this problems will be solved. i belive
which type of bypass valve are u intending to use?
Maybe I should look at at least leaving space for a bypass of the LP turbine to start with upto ~1500rpm? Have it normally open and close when the HP starts making ~0.5 Bar?
Are you running yours as a compound (both together) or a sequential (one/overlap/second)?
I really don't know about what kind of bypass yet, I'm only just starting to look into it. So I'm open to suggestions and ideas.
[/quote]
I use the HP (first one) is as if was only one. The LP which is conected to the exaust side of HP , run´s freelly.
The waste gate(38mm) is set before HP and bleeds to LP by a T joint.
The HP charger breeths through the HP, once the LP kick in , the LP will use ram effect from the LP, such that pressure ratio is within 2.
when the LP is blowing pressure ratio of 1.5 system should have 3.5 bar... and 3bar EGP or lower. more or less losses.
But at the moment i´m experiencing some issues , first was the vane ring that was incorectly set, then fix it , then installed a stronguer Spring in the WG, wich is very hard to reach . then it faced vibration problems , then EGP probe clogged , then i dont have time to correct... and it pulls a way better than with only any of those, i mean through the REV range.
anyway i have 150cc , and i suspect is not enough fuel at high end. it has a pretty decente kick but it is not proven that it works better than a HX crap alone.
u ca see the thing here
at the time was not finished, but u can have a idea...
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
02-22-2017, 10:45 AM
#24
I think two regular wastegates works pretty well, with Lp boost holding hp gate closed at higher overall boost levels.
atypicalguy
02-22-2017, 10:45 AM #24Using a vgt is ambitious for this, due to control issues.
I think two regular wastegates works pretty well, with Lp boost holding hp gate closed at higher overall boost levels.
02-22-2017, 04:50 PM
#28
Special electronics needn't cost the earth. You can use an arduino to control boost and even vnt, the source code is out there to build your own setup. I'd imagine you could do it for less than £100. And the benefit would be that you have closed loop control and it would save you a hell of a lot of time and aggro.
05-24-2017, 09:54 PM
#30
(02-19-2017, 03:16 AM)Sultzi Here is some good info and links when calculating turbos
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...p?tid=7536
I myself used not2fast calculator and one excel calculator when I picked up my turbos (master power r545 and master power 6568). These seem to work pretty nicely together.
Sultzi what AR is the turbine housing on your little turbo again? They list many options. Thanks.
My hx30 super with 46mminducer is a bit smaller than your 545, but my 6cm turbine housing is tiny. I should have gone for the 60mm wastegate also; I am at 42mm but could use the internal gate on the hx30 also if needed.
Your large turbo is very similar to my large turbo.
atypicalguy
05-24-2017, 09:54 PM #30(02-19-2017, 03:16 AM)Sultzi Here is some good info and links when calculating turbos
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...p?tid=7536
I myself used not2fast calculator and one excel calculator when I picked up my turbos (master power r545 and master power 6568). These seem to work pretty nicely together.
Sultzi what AR is the turbine housing on your little turbo again? They list many options. Thanks.
My hx30 super with 46mminducer is a bit smaller than your 545, but my 6cm turbine housing is tiny. I should have gone for the 60mm wastegate also; I am at 42mm but could use the internal gate on the hx30 also if needed.
Your large turbo is very similar to my large turbo.
05-25-2017, 02:12 AM
#31
a sequential and compound set up will require very different turbos if you going to produce same boost pressure and going for maximum efficiency. the more back sweep you have on compressor blade the less boost but more efficiency and wider compressor map, compressor inner and outer diameter will charge as well to the better for lower inertia in the compound case.
actually there is a assembly r2s combination of K24 and K27, where the K27 actually is most properly a s300gx compressor, that is run to cummins for 400whp but in the r2s combination it is not port shroud but that is not needed there and efficiency goes up, quite nice turbo if you look at the map
http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/files/pdf/d...S300GX.pdf
the HP turbo is 41/62mm regarding compressor but the inertia of that assembly is way bigger than of the gt23v
this R2s use aftercooler and intercooler in originally application that can be seen on the area ratio inlets between LP and HP turbo, in oem application it run up to 3,2 bars of boost and is on a truck so it will take quite abuse but it is heavy, about 25kg, but will fit engine bay in 300tdt/320cdi by 10mm, if I choose to use it the car instead of in the boat. A VNT/vgt turbo on HP turbo in R2S system or equivalent would be nice but is hard to find in the truck world, and the duramax have way to small differance between LP and HP compressor to make it very efficient, even double vnt give you some freedom in designing, new bmw has one of this set up.
still I think a gt23v with right turbo will be a very good combination, just if you do not have good knowledge it is easy to get it not that efficient as it is possibly could but you will not even know about it.
The R2s turbo I am speaking about is quite expensive new, 2500 euro, but can be seen sometimes, I bought mine for just 400euro including transport and it was in excellent shape, big thanks to hooblah that unintentional let me to this R2s turbo, and if you want to upgrade HP compressor it is quite easy...
This post was last modified: 05-25-2017, 01:27 PM by Turbo.
In borg warners r2s turbo systems they let there be pressure drop over HP to have some speed on LP turbo even if it is bypassed for good response, to large wastegate and this will be lost. The turbo both barrote and ERX use in there set up has actually quite low inertia of rotor assembly and make the set up much more nice since it can easer be controlled and more seamless running of the vnt function by also come up quite fast in speed, a 320 cdi is not that bad in response.
a sequential and compound set up will require very different turbos if you going to produce same boost pressure and going for maximum efficiency. the more back sweep you have on compressor blade the less boost but more efficiency and wider compressor map, compressor inner and outer diameter will charge as well to the better for lower inertia in the compound case.
actually there is a assembly r2s combination of K24 and K27, where the K27 actually is most properly a s300gx compressor, that is run to cummins for 400whp but in the r2s combination it is not port shroud but that is not needed there and efficiency goes up, quite nice turbo if you look at the map
http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/files/pdf/d...S300GX.pdf
the HP turbo is 41/62mm regarding compressor but the inertia of that assembly is way bigger than of the gt23v
this R2s use aftercooler and intercooler in originally application that can be seen on the area ratio inlets between LP and HP turbo, in oem application it run up to 3,2 bars of boost and is on a truck so it will take quite abuse but it is heavy, about 25kg, but will fit engine bay in 300tdt/320cdi by 10mm, if I choose to use it the car instead of in the boat. A VNT/vgt turbo on HP turbo in R2S system or equivalent would be nice but is hard to find in the truck world, and the duramax have way to small differance between LP and HP compressor to make it very efficient, even double vnt give you some freedom in designing, new bmw has one of this set up.
still I think a gt23v with right turbo will be a very good combination, just if you do not have good knowledge it is easy to get it not that efficient as it is possibly could but you will not even know about it.
The R2s turbo I am speaking about is quite expensive new, 2500 euro, but can be seen sometimes, I bought mine for just 400euro including transport and it was in excellent shape, big thanks to hooblah that unintentional let me to this R2s turbo, and if you want to upgrade HP compressor it is quite easy...
05-25-2017, 08:48 AM
#32
(05-24-2017, 09:54 PM)atypicalguy(02-19-2017, 03:16 AM)Sultzi Here is some good info and links when calculating turbos
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...p?tid=7536
I myself used not2fast calculator and one excel calculator when I picked up my turbos (master power r545 and master power 6568). These seem to work pretty nicely together.
Sultzi what AR is the turbine housing on your little turbo again? They list many options. Thanks.
My hx30 super with 46mminducer is a bit smaller than your 545, but my 6cm turbine housing is tiny. I should have gone for the 60mm wastegate also; I am at 42mm but could use the internal gate on the hx30 also if needed.
Your large turbo is very similar to my large turbo.
If I remember right this has 9cm housing.
(05-24-2017, 09:54 PM)atypicalguy(02-19-2017, 03:16 AM)Sultzi Here is some good info and links when calculating turbos
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...p?tid=7536
I myself used not2fast calculator and one excel calculator when I picked up my turbos (master power r545 and master power 6568). These seem to work pretty nicely together.
Sultzi what AR is the turbine housing on your little turbo again? They list many options. Thanks.
My hx30 super with 46mminducer is a bit smaller than your 545, but my 6cm turbine housing is tiny. I should have gone for the 60mm wastegate also; I am at 42mm but could use the internal gate on the hx30 also if needed.
Your large turbo is very similar to my large turbo.
If I remember right this has 9cm housing.
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