FAQ EDC Pumps / W202/W210 W463 ECU’s
FAQ EDC Pumps / W202/W210 W463 ECU’s
As this is a community that i have learned so much from. I will try answer the most commonly asked questions and even some questions not asked but to give some knowledge back so people can better understand for their own projects.
![[Image: IMG_20160210_094011.jpg]](http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/seanyt2/media/Uploads%20via%20Pixelpipe/IMG_20160210_094011.jpg.html)
FAQ
What pumps and injection quantity can EDC achieve?
The stock 6mm edc pump can put out about 90cc at the rack limiter, All 5 and 6 cylinder edc pumps can also be upgraded with dieselmeken 7,5 and 8mm elements, giving upto 170cc with reduced.
What power levels are possible with either?
Some power figures quoted for a stock 6mm edc pump are 250hp(om605) and 300hp(om606) these are realistic figures although i would not suggest building a car to stay at this level for long period of time. These levels of power are fine for daily driving blasts and fun etc. But if your racing or drifting i suggest get the larger elements fitted and this will help reduce injection time along with egt, larger element are sufficient for around 380hp(om605) 450hp(om606) these need to be confirmed by dyno.
Can the engine run standalone?
The stock ecus can be remapped to run completely standalone like in a swap just requiring minimal sensors and 2 wires for power along with common ground.
When running the ecu standalone the immobiliser needs to be removed, this requires a CR1 deimmo fitted and a small 24c04 chip to be reprogrammed to suit.
The absolute minimum wires needed is listed below
![[Image: wiring.jpg]](http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/seanyt2/media/Uploads%20via%20Pixelpipe/wiring.jpg.html)
What are the minimum sensors needed to run the engine?
The engine can run on just a few sensor these include, crank sensor (CPS), Coolant (ECT), intake air(IAT), map sensor(MAP), throttle position sensor(TPS), Glow Plug relay, EDC pump. Most of these sensors are already fitted to the engine excluding MAP,TPS and IAT and glow plug relay.
![[Image: Capture.jpg]](http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/seanyt2/media/Uploads%20via%20Pixelpipe/Capture.jpg.html)
Can i remove emission hardware like egr and airflow meter?
The ecu if used in a w202/210/463 can have limp modes for airflow meter and everything egr related removed, these would already be removed if using the ecu standalone.
What other changes to the stock ecu can be done?
Some additional functions the stock ecu can do along with altering fuel levels at various points to reduce smoke outpout and raise power output it is possible alter the stock rev limit from 5400rpm to whatever the engine can handle and introduce a hard rev limit upto this point. The map sensor can also be rescaled from stock 1.65Bar to 2.4Bar and even 4Bar sensors this is only needed with larger elements.
The throttle pedal can be rescaled to give more on-boost fuel control and make it more sensitive or less sensitive to use, as opposed to nearly 70% of the stock pedal controlling off-boost fuel in the stock setup.
50-75psi(a) pressure sensor that can be used to improve resolution with larger elements.
![[Image: Honeywell-Pressure-Sensor.jpg]](http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/seanyt2/media/Uploads%20via%20Pixelpipe/Honeywell-Pressure-Sensor.jpg.html)
What will stage 1 give me?
Stage 1 on an om605 is rated at 180hp, om606 220hp. Stage 1 keeps the car ready for NCT/DOE/MOT vehicle testing with low smoke output and stock rev limit, there is a lot more to give after this map as it is very conservative to what is possible.
The w463 has more low/mid range power from stock than a w210 so w210 stage 1 will also have this improvement over a w463 remap.
Can i remap my ecu again ?
A socketted ecu can be remapped by fitting two new chips using a chip removal tool, unlike a petrol engine that needs rolling road tuning for fuel A/F and ignition timing, These simple map changes can alter the fuel at different point depending on your end goal easily.
![[Image: sku_15065_4_1.jpg]](http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/seanyt2/media/Uploads%20via%20Pixelpipe/sku_15065_4_1.jpg.html)
What turbo upgrades are possible?
Using the stock 6mm elements on an om605 engine, swapping to a k14(om606) turbo is possible if your car is LHD, otherwise some very good results have been found using he221w, gt2871 and some testing is being done with a t04e turbo, also on stock elements for an om606 a gt3071/gt3576 or holset hy35/hx35 are some options available.
All of these upgraded turbos other than the k14 require a manifold or manifold adapter , custom intercooler pipes and new oil lines fitted. Along with improvements to the exhaust and intercooler.
Using larger elements is possible with all of the above turbo but larger turbos also become possible giving higher boost levels along with higher rev limits.
Can i get a spare ecu for my car?
There are a few options to tuning edc cars. You can get your stock ecu modified or use a replacement. The replacement ecu used has to be a facelift ecu if used in a facelift vehicle (one using the electronic key system, touch start) or any ecu will do in a pre-facelift once it is a matching 5 or 6 cylinder ecu for the engine, this is then fitted with a CR1 deimmobiliser and will work in your car.
Another alternative is code the immobiliser of a new ecu to your car using something like STAR DIAG, or make a copy of your stock ecus immobiliser and program that information to the new ecu.
Either solution gives you a spare ecu to use as an alternative.
How do i remap my ecu myself?
In an ideal world you have already done it before or are very good at soldering. I have had to replace a fair amount of ecus due to damage recently due to using too much heat and damaging the chips or surrounding chips along with forcing the chips off the board and damaging the tabs that they solder to. Both situations make the ecu non-repairable or beyond repair.
A hot air station can be used or CHIP-QUIK to remove the stock chips, a fine tip and steady hand is also needed to solder the two plcc32 sockets in place. Using alcohol to clean the surface and flux before and after to help the solder flow.
The same goes for the immobiliser chip this is a small soic8 chip so care is needed to remove and resolder this, a programmer is also needed to make changes to this chip.
Using chip quik to reduce heat use for easier removal
![[Image: IMG_20160627_145103.jpg]](http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/seanyt2/media/Uploads%20via%20Pixelpipe/IMG_20160627_145103.jpg.html)
Clean all contacts of flux using alcohol wipe and solder wick
![[Image: IMG_20160627_150303.jpg]](http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/seanyt2/media/Uploads%20via%20Pixelpipe/IMG_20160627_150303.jpg.html)
Plcc32 placement and soldering
![[Image: IMG_20160627_152831.jpg]](http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/seanyt2/media/Uploads%20via%20Pixelpipe/IMG_20160627_152831.jpg.html)
No doubt some of these figure are incorrect so if anyone else has any input i will amend the post. As i get more feedback i will also update the post with results from people.
To answer some commonly asked questions about edc pump and om605/6 ecus.
As this is a community that i have learned so much from. I will try answer the most commonly asked questions and even some questions not asked but to give some knowledge back so people can better understand for their own projects.
FAQ
What pumps and injection quantity can EDC achieve?
The stock 6mm edc pump can put out about 90cc at the rack limiter, All 5 and 6 cylinder edc pumps can also be upgraded with dieselmeken 7,5 and 8mm elements, giving upto 170cc with reduced.
What power levels are possible with either?
Some power figures quoted for a stock 6mm edc pump are 250hp(om605) and 300hp(om606) these are realistic figures although i would not suggest building a car to stay at this level for long period of time. These levels of power are fine for daily driving blasts and fun etc. But if your racing or drifting i suggest get the larger elements fitted and this will help reduce injection time along with egt, larger element are sufficient for around 380hp(om605) 450hp(om606) these need to be confirmed by dyno.
Can the engine run standalone?
The stock ecus can be remapped to run completely standalone like in a swap just requiring minimal sensors and 2 wires for power along with common ground.
When running the ecu standalone the immobiliser needs to be removed, this requires a CR1 deimmo fitted and a small 24c04 chip to be reprogrammed to suit.
The absolute minimum wires needed is listed below
What are the minimum sensors needed to run the engine?
The engine can run on just a few sensor these include, crank sensor (CPS), Coolant (ECT), intake air(IAT), map sensor(MAP), throttle position sensor(TPS), Glow Plug relay, EDC pump. Most of these sensors are already fitted to the engine excluding MAP,TPS and IAT and glow plug relay.
Can i remove emission hardware like egr and airflow meter?
The ecu if used in a w202/210/463 can have limp modes for airflow meter and everything egr related removed, these would already be removed if using the ecu standalone.
What other changes to the stock ecu can be done?
Some additional functions the stock ecu can do along with altering fuel levels at various points to reduce smoke outpout and raise power output it is possible alter the stock rev limit from 5400rpm to whatever the engine can handle and introduce a hard rev limit upto this point. The map sensor can also be rescaled from stock 1.65Bar to 2.4Bar and even 4Bar sensors this is only needed with larger elements.
The throttle pedal can be rescaled to give more on-boost fuel control and make it more sensitive or less sensitive to use, as opposed to nearly 70% of the stock pedal controlling off-boost fuel in the stock setup.
50-75psi(a) pressure sensor that can be used to improve resolution with larger elements.
What will stage 1 give me?
Stage 1 on an om605 is rated at 180hp, om606 220hp. Stage 1 keeps the car ready for NCT/DOE/MOT vehicle testing with low smoke output and stock rev limit, there is a lot more to give after this map as it is very conservative to what is possible.
The w463 has more low/mid range power from stock than a w210 so w210 stage 1 will also have this improvement over a w463 remap.
Can i remap my ecu again ?
A socketted ecu can be remapped by fitting two new chips using a chip removal tool, unlike a petrol engine that needs rolling road tuning for fuel A/F and ignition timing, These simple map changes can alter the fuel at different point depending on your end goal easily.
What turbo upgrades are possible?
Using the stock 6mm elements on an om605 engine, swapping to a k14(om606) turbo is possible if your car is LHD, otherwise some very good results have been found using he221w, gt2871 and some testing is being done with a t04e turbo, also on stock elements for an om606 a gt3071/gt3576 or holset hy35/hx35 are some options available.
All of these upgraded turbos other than the k14 require a manifold or manifold adapter , custom intercooler pipes and new oil lines fitted. Along with improvements to the exhaust and intercooler.
Using larger elements is possible with all of the above turbo but larger turbos also become possible giving higher boost levels along with higher rev limits.
Can i get a spare ecu for my car?
There are a few options to tuning edc cars. You can get your stock ecu modified or use a replacement. The replacement ecu used has to be a facelift ecu if used in a facelift vehicle (one using the electronic key system, touch start) or any ecu will do in a pre-facelift once it is a matching 5 or 6 cylinder ecu for the engine, this is then fitted with a CR1 deimmobiliser and will work in your car.
Another alternative is code the immobiliser of a new ecu to your car using something like STAR DIAG, or make a copy of your stock ecus immobiliser and program that information to the new ecu.
Either solution gives you a spare ecu to use as an alternative.
How do i remap my ecu myself?
In an ideal world you have already done it before or are very good at soldering. I have had to replace a fair amount of ecus due to damage recently due to using too much heat and damaging the chips or surrounding chips along with forcing the chips off the board and damaging the tabs that they solder to. Both situations make the ecu non-repairable or beyond repair.
A hot air station can be used or CHIP-QUIK to remove the stock chips, a fine tip and steady hand is also needed to solder the two plcc32 sockets in place. Using alcohol to clean the surface and flux before and after to help the solder flow.
The same goes for the immobiliser chip this is a small soic8 chip so care is needed to remove and resolder this, a programmer is also needed to make changes to this chip.
Using chip quik to reduce heat use for easier removal
Clean all contacts of flux using alcohol wipe and solder wick
Plcc32 placement and soldering
No doubt some of these figure are incorrect so if anyone else has any input i will amend the post. As i get more feedback i will also update the post with results from people.
wonderfull job u´ve done congratulations,
as of me i keep the hardware side of things and a few questions to consider.... like :
The electroactuator has 17mm range, phisicall range so with some magic 16mm can be used ! my question is , having idle at 1mm actuator (8 to 10cc) need more or less 1.25volt , can the software handle this small amount of voltage and use 0 voltage as measure to recover idle (low recover)? and how sensitive can u make it to 1.50 volt for steering , ac , t/off recover ( high idle recover)?
about max actuator position (the 17mm), is the ECU able to pass over 4.5 volt to achieve that ? (tipically in a 7.5mm pump about 6volt is needed to achieve full extention? another question is the rack feedback... how needed is the 2000mV for a tune of course....
Thanks , usually i build the pumps not the maps... so many questions/answers i have for the mappers .
i belive is possible to mod the actuator to reach around 20mm extention, but still, a the max voltage problema apply? (or not)
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
hy seanyt ,
wonderfull job u´ve done congratulations,
as of me i keep the hardware side of things and a few questions to consider.... like :
The electroactuator has 17mm range, phisicall range so with some magic 16mm can be used ! my question is , having idle at 1mm actuator (8 to 10cc) need more or less 1.25volt , can the software handle this small amount of voltage and use 0 voltage as measure to recover idle (low recover)? and how sensitive can u make it to 1.50 volt for steering , ac , t/off recover ( high idle recover)?
about max actuator position (the 17mm), is the ECU able to pass over 4.5 volt to achieve that ? (tipically in a 7.5mm pump about 6volt is needed to achieve full extention? another question is the rack feedback... how needed is the 2000mV for a tune of course....
Thanks , usually i build the pumps not the maps... so many questions/answers i have for the mappers .
i belive is possible to mod the actuator to reach around 20mm extention, but still, a the max voltage problema apply? (or not)
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
when im at my home pc i will check the voltage map to see what voltage is used a cc injection.
Ive not had anyone yet exceed the 4.5v limit on the maps ive made so far for people.
Are you thinking of setting idle quantity of 10cc at the 1.25v position?
two issues i think would be, 1.25v is too low for the idle control loop if it wants 1.95 and it would hunt or not idle at all.
another is you only have 1mm of rack travel to completely shut off all fuel through the elements is this enough?
Unless im thinking about this wrong.
I thought the limit for the rack travel sensor was 5v as this is the usual reference for sensors not 6v.
giving a 10% margin for the 4.5v limit.
Ive seen one case on the forum where the pump solenoid was machined to extend rack travel.
this being used by baldurs standalone ecu, this is the only ecu that will give you full access beyond the 4.5v sensor limit for very big HP builds.
You can trick the rack sensor by placing either resistors on the rack reference to get more travel or on the signal to get less travel,
there is also an adjustment at the back of the pump that moves the sensor,dieselmeken used this to gain 1mm travel having idle injection quantity at 5.7mm rather than 6.7 at 1.95v giving 1mm of added travel to the rack.
what do you mean by this
another question is the rack feedback... how needed is the 2000mV for a tune of course....
From dieselmekens edc video i always thought idle was 1.95v with 11.3cc injection.
when im at my home pc i will check the voltage map to see what voltage is used a cc injection.
Ive not had anyone yet exceed the 4.5v limit on the maps ive made so far for people.
Are you thinking of setting idle quantity of 10cc at the 1.25v position?
two issues i think would be, 1.25v is too low for the idle control loop if it wants 1.95 and it would hunt or not idle at all.
another is you only have 1mm of rack travel to completely shut off all fuel through the elements is this enough?
Unless im thinking about this wrong.
I thought the limit for the rack travel sensor was 5v as this is the usual reference for sensors not 6v.
giving a 10% margin for the 4.5v limit.
Ive seen one case on the forum where the pump solenoid was machined to extend rack travel.
this being used by baldurs standalone ecu, this is the only ecu that will give you full access beyond the 4.5v sensor limit for very big HP builds.
You can trick the rack sensor by placing either resistors on the rack reference to get more travel or on the signal to get less travel,
there is also an adjustment at the back of the pump that moves the sensor,dieselmeken used this to gain 1mm travel having idle injection quantity at 5.7mm rather than 6.7 at 1.95v giving 1mm of added travel to the rack.
what do you mean by this
another question is the rack feedback... how needed is the 2000mV for a tune of course....
The rack position sensor at idle should read 1.95v from the pump data sheet.
But its not just purely based on voltage either, it uses a sine wave to measure inductance changes to give feedback position for reference and rack.
Ive checked the mercedes service manual and the fuel solenoid on startup receives 4V, i have not measured it myself under load.
The rack position sensor at idle should read 1.95v from the pump data sheet.
But its not just purely based on voltage either, it uses a sine wave to measure inductance changes to give feedback position for reference and rack.
(12-22-2016, 03:54 PM)seanyt From dieselmekens edc video i always thought idle was 1.95v with 11.3cc injection.
when im at my home pc i will check the voltage map to see what voltage is used a cc injection.
Ive not had anyone yet exceed the 4.5v limit on the maps ive made so far for people.
Are you thinking of setting idle quantity of 10cc at the 1.25v position?
two issues i think would be, 1.25v is too low for the idle control loop if it wants 1.95 and it would hunt or not idle at all.
another is you only have 1mm of rack travel to completely shut off all fuel through the elements is this enough?
Unless im thinking about this wrong.
I thought the limit for the rack travel sensor was 5v as this is the usual reference for sensors not 6v.
giving a 10% margin for the 4.5v limit.
Ive seen one case on the forum where the pump solenoid was machined to extend rack travel.
this being used by baldurs standalone ecu, this is the only ecu that will give you full access beyond the 4.5v sensor limit for very big HP builds.
You can trick the rack sensor by placing either resistors on the rack reference to get more travel or on the signal to get less travel,
there is also an adjustment at the back of the pump that moves the sensor,dieselmeken used this to gain 1mm travel having idle injection quantity at 5.7mm rather than 6.7 at 1.95v giving 1mm of added travel to the rack.
what do you mean by this
another question is the rack feedback... how needed is the 2000mV for a tune of course....
As said , i´m on the harware side...
And when i´m looking at "mechanically" tune a pump(hardware side) , i look to how much it phisically can put out, then is time to start solving other matters.
The voltages are in the test table sheet for that pump, and idle fuel quantity is between 8 and 10 cc /ml , 10cc for cold when hot 8cc is enough for sustainable idle. voltage is 1.75volts PWM . (i´m not so sure about the values cause the tables are in the shop, but they dont differ too much)(despite i can´t do that in my bench test , cause i have a dc modulator to turn the solenoid actuator)
Then at 3.75 we should have 60 to 65cc, with the 018 553 element, but 018 554 is almost the same, slight high output voltage.
when i install 7.5 in a pump and leave it like this , at 3,75 volt maybe i can have 100cc (12mm actuator travel), and at 4.5 volt maybe it goes to 15mm, but we still have 2mm to go thats why the 5/6 volt is needed. and if i´m not to wrong i can tune the solenoid to achieve 20mm , and this can turn the pump into a super 170cc output beast in 7.5mm and 220cc in the 8mil config or more ....then we have the injection balance and sincronization kind of stuff to deal with, and inject that max , +- 5cc at 6k between elements....
The rack feedback sensor, well as of me i can´t read the miliamps feedback , they say to leave idle between 1800 and 2000. (otherwise idle will not work as it should , hunt , catch , lack of power in recover , return to idle , sustained low return, usually same as the mech pumps .... (thats the function of the screw u mentioned , it should be shimmed to whatever we wish it to be)
Anyway the questions are how low in voltage can the idle be left?, and how much voltage can the stock ECU can put out?, and how does u (soft) tunners need the feedback reference to be (range) ?
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
(12-22-2016, 03:54 PM)seanyt From dieselmekens edc video i always thought idle was 1.95v with 11.3cc injection.
when im at my home pc i will check the voltage map to see what voltage is used a cc injection.
Ive not had anyone yet exceed the 4.5v limit on the maps ive made so far for people.
Are you thinking of setting idle quantity of 10cc at the 1.25v position?
two issues i think would be, 1.25v is too low for the idle control loop if it wants 1.95 and it would hunt or not idle at all.
another is you only have 1mm of rack travel to completely shut off all fuel through the elements is this enough?
Unless im thinking about this wrong.
I thought the limit for the rack travel sensor was 5v as this is the usual reference for sensors not 6v.
giving a 10% margin for the 4.5v limit.
Ive seen one case on the forum where the pump solenoid was machined to extend rack travel.
this being used by baldurs standalone ecu, this is the only ecu that will give you full access beyond the 4.5v sensor limit for very big HP builds.
You can trick the rack sensor by placing either resistors on the rack reference to get more travel or on the signal to get less travel,
there is also an adjustment at the back of the pump that moves the sensor,dieselmeken used this to gain 1mm travel having idle injection quantity at 5.7mm rather than 6.7 at 1.95v giving 1mm of added travel to the rack.
what do you mean by this
another question is the rack feedback... how needed is the 2000mV for a tune of course....
As said , i´m on the harware side...
And when i´m looking at "mechanically" tune a pump(hardware side) , i look to how much it phisically can put out, then is time to start solving other matters.
The voltages are in the test table sheet for that pump, and idle fuel quantity is between 8 and 10 cc /ml , 10cc for cold when hot 8cc is enough for sustainable idle. voltage is 1.75volts PWM . (i´m not so sure about the values cause the tables are in the shop, but they dont differ too much)(despite i can´t do that in my bench test , cause i have a dc modulator to turn the solenoid actuator)
Then at 3.75 we should have 60 to 65cc, with the 018 553 element, but 018 554 is almost the same, slight high output voltage.
when i install 7.5 in a pump and leave it like this , at 3,75 volt maybe i can have 100cc (12mm actuator travel), and at 4.5 volt maybe it goes to 15mm, but we still have 2mm to go thats why the 5/6 volt is needed. and if i´m not to wrong i can tune the solenoid to achieve 20mm , and this can turn the pump into a super 170cc output beast in 7.5mm and 220cc in the 8mil config or more ....then we have the injection balance and sincronization kind of stuff to deal with, and inject that max , +- 5cc at 6k between elements....
The rack feedback sensor, well as of me i can´t read the miliamps feedback , they say to leave idle between 1800 and 2000. (otherwise idle will not work as it should , hunt , catch , lack of power in recover , return to idle , sustained low return, usually same as the mech pumps .... (thats the function of the screw u mentioned , it should be shimmed to whatever we wish it to be)
Anyway the questions are how low in voltage can the idle be left?, and how much voltage can the stock ECU can put out?, and how does u (soft) tunners need the feedback reference to be (range) ?
regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
Leaving you with the most rack travel for element control.
I will look further into the ECU for these. But ultimately I think baldurs ecu is best suited to this type of application of the pump.
Okay I see what you mean, you want to know the lowest idle voltage threshold so you can set the rack at the lowest value.
Leaving you with the most rack travel for element control.
I will look further into the ECU for these. But ultimately I think baldurs ecu is best suited to this type of application of the pump.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
Just to add, first OM605 in W202 with classic metal blade key dont have any immo, so it is ideal for swaps.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
Did not see much difference in SW, I have this ECU in my 250TD.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
Well I did not mean that one should take MSA15 and put it in car where was MSA25 with immo-thats what yours ECUs are here for. I tought that this is ideal for swap when someone does not want to tinker with it too much, engine makes 110kW stock which is plenty for some aplications and dont even have MAF sensor, EGR can be blocked and thrown away right away without any limp mode.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
But there is plenty of power left in these engines iver a stock tune. If you are looking for some additional power.
More so the point of this post is to let people know that they are not restricted to using mechanical pumps and the capabilities of using edc now.
Yes all w/s202 5cylinder cars do not have maf so not as much of an issue and they just require a deimmo to get them running.
But there is plenty of power left in these engines iver a stock tune. If you are looking for some additional power.
More so the point of this post is to let people know that they are not restricted to using mechanical pumps and the capabilities of using edc now.
http://i1353.o.com/albums/q663/Petar/Scr...ger0te.png
http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q663...w9rbqd.png
http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q663...84xf3v.png
I've seen pictures of a couple of MY2000 C250's with a MAF's. They also seem to have flapper valves in the EGR valve housing, just like the non turbo models.
http://i1353.o.com/albums/q663/Petar/Scr...ger0te.png
http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q663...w9rbqd.png
http://i1353.photobucket.com/albums/q663...84xf3v.png
It seems that at some point in '99 they started instalibg MAF's
Just search on mobile.de for year 2000 c250's.
Starynovy are you sure about no IMMO on early c250's ?? I have a '96 c250 turbo wagon that was swapped over to mechanical pump by the previous owner. There is the receiver ring around the ignition lock but the keymaker didn't find any transponder when copying my key.
Turbo's they are from Germany, year 2000. Also found one first registered in September 1999. that has a MAF.
It seems that at some point in '99 they started instalibg MAF's
Just search on mobile.de for year 2000 c250's.
Starynovy are you sure about no IMMO on early c250's ?? I have a '96 c250 turbo wagon that was swapped over to mechanical pump by the previous owner. There is the receiver ring around the ignition lock but the keymaker didn't find any transponder when copying my key.
Awesome information thank you! I will happily socket the ECU, so presumably I would just need to purchase a programmed chip(s) from yourself and fit them?
I understand the deimmo is also another chip which would need to be fitted to the ECU in the same manner?
I can more easily get a w210/606 facelift ECU for cheap, so my question is would ithis ECu work and fit the multiplug in my W202? (with stock W202 ECU running stock 606.962 IP). Or is an ECU from a matching car model needed?
You don't mention the need to swap over any modules or key switches so I presume the deimmo mod means the ECU works with any key/barrel/modules?
Also, would your ECU work with the stock 722.6? Also, if I wanted to use an Ole controller, would you ECU be able to work with the 722.6 not connected?
Can PM if you prefer to keep this thread clean.
Thanks, & Beers!
HH
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
Helo
Awesome information thank you! I will happily socket the ECU, so presumably I would just need to purchase a programmed chip(s) from yourself and fit them?
I understand the deimmo is also another chip which would need to be fitted to the ECU in the same manner?
I can more easily get a w210/606 facelift ECU for cheap, so my question is would ithis ECu work and fit the multiplug in my W202? (with stock W202 ECU running stock 606.962 IP). Or is an ECU from a matching car model needed?
You don't mention the need to swap over any modules or key switches so I presume the deimmo mod means the ECU works with any key/barrel/modules?
Also, would your ECU work with the stock 722.6? Also, if I wanted to use an Ole controller, would you ECU be able to work with the 722.6 not connected?
Can PM if you prefer to keep this thread clean.
Thanks, & Beers!
HH
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
Other solution is send me your ecu and i can duplicate the immobilser and you get a spare socketted and remapped ecu and leave stock one alone.
Either solution needs no changes to any modules on the car, These ecus work with the stock tcu for 722.6 yes and also without.
The plugs are the same on both ecus, i have also swapped om606/om605 maps between ecus and they work fine..
Sean
If your using your own ecu your immo stays the same, but in order for me to supply a spare ecu i need to deimmo to test and confirm it works in any car.
Other solution is send me your ecu and i can duplicate the immobilser and you get a spare socketted and remapped ecu and leave stock one alone.
Either solution needs no changes to any modules on the car, These ecus work with the stock tcu for 722.6 yes and also without.
The plugs are the same on both ecus, i have also swapped om606/om605 maps between ecus and they work fine..
Sean
What is the maximum power that can be pull out in an om606 with stock EDC pump....?
bruno_pinho
12-27-2016, 03:14 PM #23Hi.....
What is the maximum power that can be pull out in an om606 with stock EDC pump....?
(12-27-2016, 03:26 PM)seanyt Its believed it maxes at 93cc , what did you get from your om605 with 6mm elements?
Also as ive mentioned running 6mm at it absolute max is not ideal and only suitable for short power runs.
I belive this 93cc is with maxed out 21mm rack, stock EDC pump with 18mm rack makes maybe 80cc.
With 7.5mm elements stock EDC pump makes 165-170cc and 190cc with 21mm extended rack and modified magnet. Not sure how it works with stock ecu, I use Baldur's DSL1 controller.
(12-27-2016, 03:26 PM)seanyt Its believed it maxes at 93cc , what did you get from your om605 with 6mm elements?
Also as ive mentioned running 6mm at it absolute max is not ideal and only suitable for short power runs.
I belive this 93cc is with maxed out 21mm rack, stock EDC pump with 18mm rack makes maybe 80cc.
With 7.5mm elements stock EDC pump makes 165-170cc and 190cc with 21mm extended rack and modified magnet. Not sure how it works with stock ecu, I use Baldur's DSL1 controller.
I still haven't had anyone need more than 140-150cc fuel on edc pumps yet though.
and i think few even with mechanical actually use 170-190cc let alone 220cc
My dieselmeken 8mm pump is marked 170cc i presume that is at the 4.5v mark that he tests them to.
im looking into re-scaling some tables so a rebuilt pump can delivery the same fuel at less rack travel leaving more travel for additional fuel.
I still haven't had anyone need more than 140-150cc fuel on edc pumps yet though.
and i think few even with mechanical actually use 170-190cc let alone 220cc
My dieselmeken 8mm pump is marked 170cc i presume that is at the 4.5v mark that he tests them to.
Was this 93cc taken on stock 18mm rack on EDC or at the end of rack? If 93cc is taken at the end of rack then stock EDC pump makes only about 80cc.
I was just saying that pumps are different and stock pumps are not taking max fuel from elements. You can't ask what cc pump with 6mm elements make because it makes as much as pump is tuned to.
Was this 93cc taken on stock 18mm rack on EDC or at the end of rack? If 93cc is taken at the end of rack then stock EDC pump makes only about 80cc.
At 3.2v feedback it's 65cc giving 90cc at 4.5v and the voltage map
Is linear based on this, but does vary with revs so 80-85cc may be a realistic output.
Unless it's tested it's not truly known.
The chips that monitors rack position also has max scale of 4.5v
if you read the specifications of it.
The 5-6v people are referring to would be the voltage feeding the solenoid that controls the rack. These two items are two completely separatly controlled items with different input and outputs.
If I was to base injection cc on rack position feedback alone
At 3.2v feedback it's 65cc giving 90cc at 4.5v and the voltage map
Is linear based on this, but does vary with revs so 80-85cc may be a realistic output.
Unless it's tested it's not truly known.
The chips that monitors rack position also has max scale of 4.5v
if you read the specifications of it.
The 5-6v people are referring to would be the voltage feeding the solenoid that controls the rack. These two items are two completely separatly controlled items with different input and outputs.
The only thing that pump has diff from a M with RSF governor is the simplicity in the actuator mechanism , wich is replaced by a computer, nevertheless it has its own limits , beeing one the software that runs n it , which seems hard to mod as first try!
back to the harware part , 605 and 606 pumps use diff element serial number, 605 ends in 553 and 606 in 554 and indeed they are diff , the main diference is the helix which determines the max fuel output, at first sight one key diff is the 553 has a cut off port in the helix and the 554 does not, so basically in numbers the 553 is able of putting out 110 to 115cc irespective of rack position due to the cut off port. the 554 does not have the cut off port so the max injection is 140/150cc if someone can achieve that rack travel (16mm of positive injection) and still have idle.
Basically my idea and the others that deal with hardware tunning , besides the wider elements , is to maximise the rack lenght available. and this will determine completely diff outputs. Usually we start to change idle position,(allow maximization of positive output) but changing this also changes the computer ability to control the rack within known premisses. This procedure renders imposible the use of the stock computer(soft). Then to use this technique is always a max rack travel(17mm in this pump) wich can be achieved with 4.5 volt or not , for those who think it can i suggest to measure it in a bench tester with the pump at operational temp of 80ºC
Basically this is why , some fellas move to the mech RSF, which is not so dificult to tune idle at 5mm and max rack travel of 22mm leaving 17mm of positive rack displacement , wich with a 8 mil element can give 250cc at very high pump RPM , i never done any of this pumps cause they are very expensive and there are many experts around who can build them cheaper than i can.
Nevertheles i have made trials and i know how to squeze 250cc+- 5cc out of a M with RSF and 8 mil elements at 3k.
The idea is to do the same with a EDC , well my intention is this
, i belive it might well be the idea of some members, but thinking that volts = output is not the right foot forward.which u all happy new year,
Regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
hehe , people got to understand the hardware first...
The only thing that pump has diff from a M with RSF governor is the simplicity in the actuator mechanism , wich is replaced by a computer, nevertheless it has its own limits , beeing one the software that runs n it , which seems hard to mod as first try!
back to the harware part , 605 and 606 pumps use diff element serial number, 605 ends in 553 and 606 in 554 and indeed they are diff , the main diference is the helix which determines the max fuel output, at first sight one key diff is the 553 has a cut off port in the helix and the 554 does not, so basically in numbers the 553 is able of putting out 110 to 115cc irespective of rack position due to the cut off port. the 554 does not have the cut off port so the max injection is 140/150cc if someone can achieve that rack travel (16mm of positive injection) and still have idle.
Basically my idea and the others that deal with hardware tunning , besides the wider elements , is to maximise the rack lenght available. and this will determine completely diff outputs. Usually we start to change idle position,(allow maximization of positive output) but changing this also changes the computer ability to control the rack within known premisses. This procedure renders imposible the use of the stock computer(soft). Then to use this technique is always a max rack travel(17mm in this pump) wich can be achieved with 4.5 volt or not , for those who think it can i suggest to measure it in a bench tester with the pump at operational temp of 80ºC
Basically this is why , some fellas move to the mech RSF, which is not so dificult to tune idle at 5mm and max rack travel of 22mm leaving 17mm of positive rack displacement , wich with a 8 mil element can give 250cc at very high pump RPM , i never done any of this pumps cause they are very expensive and there are many experts around who can build them cheaper than i can.
Nevertheles i have made trials and i know how to squeze 250cc+- 5cc out of a M with RSF and 8 mil elements at 3k.
The idea is to do the same with a EDC , well my intention is this , i belive it might well be the idea of some members, but thinking that volts = output is not the right foot forward.
which u all happy new year,
Regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
bruno_pinho
12-29-2016, 04:44 PM #33Next week I go to the dyno with my car and I say here what can be done in the 606 with stock EDC pump..
There is no damos for these ecus as far as I know. If you are interested, I can post some of the adresses I found in the dump. Map linearization map is one of those. For disabling the EHAB, you need to erase the dtc. I did that, too. I can post information on this, too, if you are interested. Need to come home to my computer for that and find some time...
this is pretty much everything I found out over time:
MAP ADRESSES
these are pretty much my dump adresses from the MSA25 C250 Turbodiesel. OM606 map adresses differ only a little bit, you can find them easily.
ENGINE IDLE SPEED: 3x1 Map, Adresses 3D4C0, 454C0, 4D4C0... (8x in the dump)
EGR: 16x12 Map, Adresses 3AF7A, 42F7A, 4AF7A... (8x in the dump)
ATHM. BOOST LIMITER: 10x10 Map, Adresses 3EBA0, 46BA0, 4EBA0... (8x in the dump)
TORQUE LIMITER: 1x20 Map, Adresses 3CF04, 44F04, 4CF04... (8x in the dump)
DRIVER WISH: 8x8 Map, Adresses 3A000, 42000, 4A000... (8x in the dump)
IQ-LIMIT BASED ON ENG TEMPERATURE: 8x8 Map, Adresses 3E4B2, 464B2, 4E4B2... (8x in the dump)
BOOST REQUEST: 12x16 Map, Adresses 3E7BC, 467BC, 4E7BC... (8x in the dump)
MAP-SENSOR LINEARIZATION: 4x1 Map, Adresses 3AAEA, 42AEA, 4AAEA... (8x in the dump)
PUMP VOLTAGE: 14x16 Map, Adresses 3D8D4, 458D4, 4D8D4... (8x in the dump)
SMOKE LIMITER: 10x14 Map, Adresses 3D004, 45004, 4D004... (8x in the dump)
IDLE SPEED AFTER START: 6x1 Map, Adresses 3CCE0, 3D500, 44CE0, 45500, 4CCE0... (16x in the dump)
ENGINE-START IQ: 10x10 Map, Adresses 3CA88, 44AB8, 4CAB8... (8x in the dump)
TROUBLE CODE DELETE
I recommend deleting at least the codes P1470 (boost deviation) and P1622 (electo-hydraulic shut-off valve EHAB). You will not actually delete them, but they will not lead the ecu into limp-mode any more.
Look at the dump in 16-bit decimal. Search for the DTC-Code as a HEX-Number without the "P", you will find it eight times. It is part of a group of two or more codes, followed by a number of 00000 blocks. Go to the last 00000. Now go to the sixth block after that. It is usually a number like 01000 oder 00200... Change it to 65535 and the next one to 00000. If the next block is a 00069, change the two blocks after it again to 65535 and 00000. Repeat, if the next is also a 00069, repeat the procedure and so on...
I really dont know what that does, maybe changes some timeout or sth. But it works nice for me. By deleting P1470, you can set the whole boost request map to the desired boost level, making it a lot easier to tune.
Ok,
this is pretty much everything I found out over time:
MAP ADRESSES
these are pretty much my dump adresses from the MSA25 C250 Turbodiesel. OM606 map adresses differ only a little bit, you can find them easily.
ENGINE IDLE SPEED: 3x1 Map, Adresses 3D4C0, 454C0, 4D4C0... (8x in the dump)
EGR: 16x12 Map, Adresses 3AF7A, 42F7A, 4AF7A... (8x in the dump)
ATHM. BOOST LIMITER: 10x10 Map, Adresses 3EBA0, 46BA0, 4EBA0... (8x in the dump)
TORQUE LIMITER: 1x20 Map, Adresses 3CF04, 44F04, 4CF04... (8x in the dump)
DRIVER WISH: 8x8 Map, Adresses 3A000, 42000, 4A000... (8x in the dump)
IQ-LIMIT BASED ON ENG TEMPERATURE: 8x8 Map, Adresses 3E4B2, 464B2, 4E4B2... (8x in the dump)
BOOST REQUEST: 12x16 Map, Adresses 3E7BC, 467BC, 4E7BC... (8x in the dump)
MAP-SENSOR LINEARIZATION: 4x1 Map, Adresses 3AAEA, 42AEA, 4AAEA... (8x in the dump)
PUMP VOLTAGE: 14x16 Map, Adresses 3D8D4, 458D4, 4D8D4... (8x in the dump)
SMOKE LIMITER: 10x14 Map, Adresses 3D004, 45004, 4D004... (8x in the dump)
IDLE SPEED AFTER START: 6x1 Map, Adresses 3CCE0, 3D500, 44CE0, 45500, 4CCE0... (16x in the dump)
ENGINE-START IQ: 10x10 Map, Adresses 3CA88, 44AB8, 4CAB8... (8x in the dump)
TROUBLE CODE DELETE
I recommend deleting at least the codes P1470 (boost deviation) and P1622 (electo-hydraulic shut-off valve EHAB). You will not actually delete them, but they will not lead the ecu into limp-mode any more.
Look at the dump in 16-bit decimal. Search for the DTC-Code as a HEX-Number without the "P", you will find it eight times. It is part of a group of two or more codes, followed by a number of 00000 blocks. Go to the last 00000. Now go to the sixth block after that. It is usually a number like 01000 oder 00200... Change it to 65535 and the next one to 00000. If the next block is a 00069, change the two blocks after it again to 65535 and 00000. Repeat, if the next is also a 00069, repeat the procedure and so on...
I really dont know what that does, maybe changes some timeout or sth. But it works nice for me. By deleting P1470, you can set the whole boost request map to the desired boost level, making it a lot easier to tune.
IMO the soldering part is the hardest considering that I'm very clumsy with my fat fingers
and have no experience soldering SMD so I'm looking for someone who can do it for me locally. Thinking laptop/phone repair shops should have the equipment and experience working on delicate electronics.I still have a mechanical pump on my car but i can't afford any downtime of the car so I'm gonna do the IMMO bypass on two ECU's - one to socket and remap and one to have as backup in case I screw anything up. Last thing i need is swapping to EDC pump only to find out it won't start.
What else could stop the car from running beside immo ? Is there something else critical besides the crank sensor ? I don't care if it runs in limp mode as long as it runs, I'll fix the limp mode somehow.Like I said I can afford 0 downtime, i need the car for work.
What hardware and software you use to read and write eeproms ?? When you delete EHAB code does it still take a while to shut down when you delete the valve ?
IMO the soldering part is the hardest considering that I'm very clumsy with my fat fingers and have no experience soldering SMD so I'm looking for someone who can do it for me locally. Thinking laptop/phone repair shops should have the equipment and experience working on delicate electronics.
I still have a mechanical pump on my car but i can't afford any downtime of the car so I'm gonna do the IMMO bypass on two ECU's - one to socket and remap and one to have as backup in case I screw anything up. Last thing i need is swapping to EDC pump only to find out it won't start.
What else could stop the car from running beside immo ? Is there something else critical besides the crank sensor ? I don't care if it runs in limp mode as long as it runs, I'll fix the limp mode somehow.Like I said I can afford 0 downtime, i need the car for work.
the TL866 mini-programmer works fine. Did all my ecus with it. They are cheap on ebay and usually come with a PLCC32-adaptor.
The desoldering is not that difficult with a hot air gun. I protect the rest of the pcb with kitchenfoil or aluminium tape. Be careful not to use too much heat. There are serveral tutorials on youtube how to desolder SMD-ICs. The soldering it self is not that complicated also if you have a thin solder and a small soldering iron.
Hi,
the TL866 mini-programmer works fine. Did all my ecus with it. They are cheap on ebay and usually come with a PLCC32-adaptor.
The desoldering is not that difficult with a hot air gun. I protect the rest of the pcb with kitchenfoil or aluminium tape. Be careful not to use too much heat. There are serveral tutorials on youtube how to desolder SMD-ICs. The soldering it self is not that complicated also if you have a thin solder and a small soldering iron.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
Tobulus> Could you show how exactly you set timers on that DTC string? It is pretty hard to guess without DAMOS and we all know there is no such thing for MSA family.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
(07-17-2017, 01:43 PM)oleg213 Anyone knows the address of the charge control valve maps?
With a standard control, the VNT turbine can not stably produce the required pressure
I am reading this as: you installed a VNT turbo with vacuum control onto a stock OM606A EDC setup and had problems.
This is exactly what I would like to try eventually.
Which turbo did you try and can you clarify exactly what does and doesn't work?
(07-17-2017, 01:43 PM)oleg213 Anyone knows the address of the charge control valve maps?
With a standard control, the VNT turbine can not stably produce the required pressure
I am reading this as: you installed a VNT turbo with vacuum control onto a stock OM606A EDC setup and had problems.
This is exactly what I would like to try eventually.
Which turbo did you try and can you clarify exactly what does and doesn't work?
(07-17-2017, 01:43 PM)oleg213 Anyone knows the address of the charge control valve maps?
With a standard control, the VNT turbine can not stably produce the required pressure
I am reading this as: you installed a VNT turbo with vacuum control onto a stock OM606A EDC setup and had problems.
This is exactly what I would like to try eventually.
Which turbo did you try and can you clarify exactly what does and doesn't work?
[/quote]
turbo gt2359v from om613
When I press the gas pedal to the floor, the ECU can not hold the boost in the required value, then more, then less. On the VAG, when installing the turbine with VNT, you need to do a remap N75 valve
[quote pid='86763' dateline='1500921879']
(07-17-2017, 01:43 PM)oleg213 Anyone knows the address of the charge control valve maps?
With a standard control, the VNT turbine can not stably produce the required pressure
I am reading this as: you installed a VNT turbo with vacuum control onto a stock OM606A EDC setup and had problems.
This is exactly what I would like to try eventually.
Which turbo did you try and can you clarify exactly what does and doesn't work?
[/quote]
turbo gt2359v from om613
When I press the gas pedal to the floor, the ECU can not hold the boost in the required value, then more, then less. On the VAG, when installing the turbine with VNT, you need to do a remap N75 valve
If I plug up everything maf, egr, etc etc it should work?
I'm putting the engine in a car in Norway and need to get the swap approved therefore I need the engine to be as stock as possible.
Is it possible to just remove ews and no remapping to run standalone in a car?
If I plug up everything maf, egr, etc etc it should work?
I'm putting the engine in a car in Norway and need to get the swap approved therefore I need the engine to be as stock as possible.
My understanding is that the immobilizer can't be removed. It can, however, be faked with an immobilizer delete board and some custom EEPROM edits. That is what I did to get my ECU working again after the immobilizer key values were corrupted. It starts with a bare metal key. It does have the TCU, ABS and instrument cluster installed. It isn't clear that any of those are needed for proper operation though.
ews = immobilizer?
My understanding is that the immobilizer can't be removed. It can, however, be faked with an immobilizer delete board and some custom EEPROM edits. That is what I did to get my ECU working again after the immobilizer key values were corrupted. It starts with a bare metal key. It does have the TCU, ABS and instrument cluster installed. It isn't clear that any of those are needed for proper operation though.
(02-01-2018, 02:53 AM)Mr.Emo Yes. I was talking about the thing you solder into the ecu and reprogram the ews module.
But I was wondering about the egr, maf etc if they will work in standalone car with just the ews removed.
Yes that will work.
Baldur Gislason
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