2002 G500 Good swap candidate?
2002 G500 Good swap candidate?
50harleyrider
11-12-2017, 05:37 PM #1I found a 2002 G500 in my neighborhood and instantly an OM606 swap idea danced in my head. The owner is wanting to sell the car. Is it a good swap candidate? Should I consider a manual or automatic? Was that vehicle available in Europe with a diesel which if so would help me to source the swap stuff? What would be a good price to offer him. The wagon has been sitting undriven under a carport for 2+ years. That gas guzzling 5 liter v8 would have to go. Wagon is black on black and nice shape except for rotting tires and neglect.
whipplem104
11-12-2017, 08:40 PM #2The best way to go is to put an om648 in it. You could basically bolt it in and marry a virgin ecu to the EIS and start it up and drive it like stock. Of course accompanying parts to bolt it in. But if you put an om606 in it you are going to have to dump the I/C climate control, traction control,, Everything basically electronic in the car will not work any more other than windows and seats and the radio.
(11-12-2017, 08:40 PM)whipplem104 The best way to go is to put an om648 in it. You could basically bolt it in and marry a virgin ecu to the EIS and start it up and drive it like stock. Of course accompanying parts to bolt it in. But if you put an om606 in it you are going to have to dump the I/C climate control, traction control,, Everything basically electronic in the car will not work any more other than windows and seats and the radio.
50harleyrider
11-23-2017, 09:46 AM #3What do you mean by a virgin ecu? I've only used Baldurs' ecu on my F150 om606 conversion. If I got a whole OM648 donor car, could I use the ecu out of it? Also the 2.9L 6cylinder diesels put in the European G's were V6 so I expect an I6 might be tough to use due to length.
(11-12-2017, 08:40 PM)whipplem104 The best way to go is to put an om648 in it. You could basically bolt it in and marry a virgin ecu to the EIS and start it up and drive it like stock. Of course accompanying parts to bolt it in. But if you put an om606 in it you are going to have to dump the I/C climate control, traction control,, Everything basically electronic in the car will not work any more other than windows and seats and the radio.
Inline 6 engines came in G wagens in all sorts of forms. diesel and gas. No problem fitting it in there. Lots of g320 and g36 cars made. I have never seen in the U.S. diesel ones anything past the om617 but I am sure there were om603, om606 and probably others made.
All the computers in the later model cars are interchanging lots of information. SO really nothing really works if you do not have a computer that can talk to the others. If you want to do a om606 swap with a baldur ecu or a mechanical pump, you would need a much older car to do that with or remove all the stuff that does not work anymore like I listed above. and put older stuff in that will work.
whipplem104
11-23-2017, 10:14 AM #4Virgin means it is not locked to another vehicle. Like a new one. But I can unlock a used one for you as well. So you can just use the Mercedes Star machine to install it.
Inline 6 engines came in G wagens in all sorts of forms. diesel and gas. No problem fitting it in there. Lots of g320 and g36 cars made. I have never seen in the U.S. diesel ones anything past the om617 but I am sure there were om603, om606 and probably others made.
All the computers in the later model cars are interchanging lots of information. SO really nothing really works if you do not have a computer that can talk to the others. If you want to do a om606 swap with a baldur ecu or a mechanical pump, you would need a much older car to do that with or remove all the stuff that does not work anymore like I listed above. and put older stuff in that will work.
50harleyrider
11-24-2017, 07:44 AM #5That's good to hear. I've been wanting to do an OM648 swap for some time. The OM606 F150 swap went well after I got the adapter plate issues resolved. Is the Mercedes star machine similar to Ross-Tech VCDS which I have used for years or is it very expensive and more or less a dealer item?
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Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
Yes it is similar expect it costs 10 times more.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
whipplem104
11-24-2017, 02:26 PM #7There are plenty of cheap knock off star machines on ebay and the like. Do some hunting online you will find a lot of places and choices. I will say do not get a remote hardrive setup. Just get a drop in hardrive or the whole computer. So you just turn it on and it works. And do not have it online or do anything else with it because it will get viruses really easily.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-MB-Star-SD-...SwBOtY9B99
Is the om648 as durable as the 606?
50harleyrider
11-25-2017, 08:02 AM #8Like this one?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-MB-Star-SD-...SwBOtY9B99
Is the om648 as durable as the 606?
As far as the 648 being as durable. I guess. It is just the progression of the same engine family. I have not seen any real problems with them in the service side. DPF filter or injectors or pumps. EGR. That is about it. I love mine. It has no DPF. Other than that it is stock and runs great and quite and gets great fuel economy and has tons of power.
whipplem104
11-25-2017, 09:15 AM #9That is the idea.
As far as the 648 being as durable. I guess. It is just the progression of the same engine family. I have not seen any real problems with them in the service side. DPF filter or injectors or pumps. EGR. That is about it. I love mine. It has no DPF. Other than that it is stock and runs great and quite and gets great fuel economy and has tons of power.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
It is stronger than 606, takes much more torque by design. However it is not as forgiving, bad tune will kill it in no time. Dont know what power are you after, but with good stage 1 remap it will move pretty good and last for ever.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
(11-25-2017, 09:15 AM)whipplem104 That is the idea.
As far as the 648 being as durable. I guess. It is just the progression of the same engine family. I have not seen any real problems with them in the service side. DPF filter or injectors or pumps. EGR. That is about it. I love mine. It has no DPF. Other than that it is stock and runs great and quite and gets great fuel economy and has tons of power.
what about om648 vs om642?
have now got some bmw 550d injector that I am thinking of putting in one
(11-25-2017, 09:15 AM)whipplem104 That is the idea.
As far as the 648 being as durable. I guess. It is just the progression of the same engine family. I have not seen any real problems with them in the service side. DPF filter or injectors or pumps. EGR. That is about it. I love mine. It has no DPF. Other than that it is stock and runs great and quite and gets great fuel economy and has tons of power.
what about om648 vs om642?
have now got some bmw 550d injector that I am thinking of putting in one
whipplem104
11-25-2017, 08:17 PM #12642 is a pile. I hate to say it but man I hate that engine. Maybe the worse diesel ever built. I would hate to blame emissions crap like everyone else but the truth is that I believe it is just a bad motor. If it was purely emissions stuff then the 2008 would be as solid as the om648. And it is not even close. As far as power capabilities I have no idea. they blow up stock all the time. And they drive a few hundred thousand miles all the time. I would say you have a 50/50 chance of getting past 150,000 miles without having to spend 10k on maintenance.
whipplem104
11-25-2017, 08:20 PM #13As far as the 648 making as much torque as the 606, I do not know why not. Except I have not seen it yet. Please show me a dyno chart of one making more than a 606. Ours made 700w/tq. So around 870-900lb/ft at the crank at 20% loss on a dyno dynamics.
(11-25-2017, 08:17 PM)whipplem104 642 is a pile. I hate to say it but man I hate that engine. Maybe the worse diesel ever built. I would hate to blame emissions crap like everyone else but the truth is that I believe it is just a bad motor. If it was purely emissions stuff then the 2008 would be as solid as the om648. And it is not even close. As far as power capabilities I have no idea. they blow up stock all the time. And they drive a few hundred thousand miles all the time. I would say you have a 50/50 chance of getting past 150,000 miles without having to spend 10k on maintenance.wow, I did know om642 was not good but I under stud it was some relative simply things to change, I did not know its was so bad, so the om642 need to go then.
so now the one million dollar question how do you get an om648 made to take pizoinjectors,, any idea
(11-25-2017, 08:17 PM)whipplem104 642 is a pile. I hate to say it but man I hate that engine. Maybe the worse diesel ever built. I would hate to blame emissions crap like everyone else but the truth is that I believe it is just a bad motor. If it was purely emissions stuff then the 2008 would be as solid as the om648. And it is not even close. As far as power capabilities I have no idea. they blow up stock all the time. And they drive a few hundred thousand miles all the time. I would say you have a 50/50 chance of getting past 150,000 miles without having to spend 10k on maintenance.wow, I did know om642 was not good but I under stud it was some relative simply things to change, I did not know its was so bad, so the om642 need to go then.
so now the one million dollar question how do you get an om648 made to take pizoinjectors,, any idea
(11-25-2017, 12:23 PM)starynovy It is stronger than 606, takes much more torque by design. However it is not as forgiving, bad tune will kill it in no time. Dont know what power are you after, but with good stage 1 remap it will move pretty good and last for ever.
can you please develop -"However it is not as forgiving"
(11-25-2017, 12:23 PM)starynovy It is stronger than 606, takes much more torque by design. However it is not as forgiving, bad tune will kill it in no time. Dont know what power are you after, but with good stage 1 remap it will move pretty good and last for ever.
can you please develop -"However it is not as forgiving"
Piezoinjectors... if they have same spray angle all you need is modify ECU which can manage them or go standalone. Both highly cost inefficient forget it. You can have large nozzles in these injectors as well and it will be so cheap and easy compared to making it take piezo.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
Yep, with exceptionally bad tune it can crack/melt piston in one WOT run. Programmer needs to know what he is doing. 606 takes a lot of abuse from amateurs who think smoking pile of shit is god tune..looking at you luke dale.. before letting go.
Piezoinjectors... if they have same spray angle all you need is modify ECU which can manage them or go standalone. Both highly cost inefficient forget it. You can have large nozzles in these injectors as well and it will be so cheap and easy compared to making it take piezo.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
whipplem104
11-26-2017, 02:18 PM #18Common that is not fair. You cannot sell to the general public unless it is a smoking pile. It is like burnouts. That is what is cool. If you can have lots of diesel smoke and a burn out then man you are just killing it. At least good for an 1000hp.
(11-26-2017, 01:17 PM)starynovy Yep, with exceptionally bad tune it can crack/melt piston in one WOT run. Programmer needs to know what he is doing. 606 takes a lot of abuse from amateurs who think smoking pile of shit is god tune..looking at you luke dale.. before letting go.
Piezoinjectors... if they have same spray angle all you need is modify ECU which can manage them or go standalone. Both highly cost inefficient forget it. You can have large nozzles in these injectors as well and it will be so cheap and easy compared to making it take piezo.
of course finding some high power CRI2-22/25 that would be most preferable is like finding a black cat in a black room that appears not to be even there...
Would even the original software/hardware be able to drive them even íf they are of solenoid ones? I want it to be clean not some stupid smoking in the first place. Many company like bosch and garrett brage alot about they have things, when you deep look into it, it is not available yet... Turbo is so easy, injectors very hard, nice tuner, even harder...
Well I have some high flowing pizo and I am investigating on if/how I can use them preferable in a om613/648, cost effective No, then you should see my other stuff... And finding good diesel tuner in Sweden seams impossible, I have give up hope on that one...have spoken with Pieter at KC performance and will see what he can do for me.
(11-26-2017, 01:17 PM)starynovy Yep, with exceptionally bad tune it can crack/melt piston in one WOT run. Programmer needs to know what he is doing. 606 takes a lot of abuse from amateurs who think smoking pile of shit is god tune..looking at you luke dale.. before letting go.
Piezoinjectors... if they have same spray angle all you need is modify ECU which can manage them or go standalone. Both highly cost inefficient forget it. You can have large nozzles in these injectors as well and it will be so cheap and easy compared to making it take piezo.
of course finding some high power CRI2-22/25 that would be most preferable is like finding a black cat in a black room that appears not to be even there...
Would even the original software/hardware be able to drive them even íf they are of solenoid ones? I want it to be clean not some stupid smoking in the first place. Many company like bosch and garrett brage alot about they have things, when you deep look into it, it is not available yet... Turbo is so easy, injectors very hard, nice tuner, even harder...
Well I have some high flowing pizo and I am investigating on if/how I can use them preferable in a om613/648, cost effective No, then you should see my other stuff... And finding good diesel tuner in Sweden seams impossible, I have give up hope on that one...have spoken with Pieter at KC performance and will see what he can do for me.
Apart from crappy timing chain which you will change while its out it is strong engine capable of mad power even without HW mods.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
ECU that driven magnets will under no circumstances work with piezos-just different driver chips and circuitry inside. You would need ECU from inline 6 engine which have them and then adapt it to OM648 sensors-maybe they can be used right away. So we are talking BMW N57 series, only R6 diesel simillar to 648 that uses piezo injectors. And then why not to use N57 and forget this nonsense. Apart from crappy timing chain which you will change while its out it is strong engine capable of mad power even without HW mods.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
(11-26-2017, 04:58 PM)starynovy ECU that driven magnets will under no circumstances work with piezos-just different driver chips and circuitry inside. You would need ECU from inline 6 engine which have them and then adapt it to OM648 sensors-maybe they can be used right away. So we are talking BMW N57 series, only R6 diesel simillar to 648 that uses piezo injectors. And then why not to use N57 and forget this nonsense.
CRI2-22/25 is magnet driven, bmw 550d cri3-22 pizo
what is HW mods?
so what is not a crappy timing chain?
I can do many things with engine specially turbos but messing around with ECU I do not even know where to start... I am hoping baldur is moving on there...
(11-26-2017, 04:58 PM)starynovy ECU that driven magnets will under no circumstances work with piezos-just different driver chips and circuitry inside. You would need ECU from inline 6 engine which have them and then adapt it to OM648 sensors-maybe they can be used right away. So we are talking BMW N57 series, only R6 diesel simillar to 648 that uses piezo injectors. And then why not to use N57 and forget this nonsense.
CRI2-22/25 is magnet driven, bmw 550d cri3-22 pizo
what is HW mods?
so what is not a crappy timing chain?
I can do many things with engine specially turbos but messing around with ECU I do not even know where to start... I am hoping baldur is moving on there...
(11-25-2017, 08:17 PM)whipplem104 642 is a pile. I hate to say it but man I hate that engine. Maybe the worse diesel ever built. I would hate to blame emissions crap like everyone else but the truth is that I believe it is just a bad motor. If it was purely emissions stuff then the 2008 would be as solid as the om648. And it is not even close. As far as power capabilities I have no idea. they blow up stock all the time. And they drive a few hundred thousand miles all the time. I would say you have a 50/50 chance of getting past 150,000 miles without having to spend 10k on maintenance.
I don't know where you got this from, but it is complete BS what you are telling.
Here in europe we have thousands and thousand of these engines and they are all just fine.
I have had myself 3 of them and have put on all of them +300.000 km without any problem and just doing oil and filter changes every 30.000 km.
I agree that the inline 6 is maybe the last over engineered diesel benz made.
Grand cherokee WK (OM642)
diesel2fast4u
11-27-2017, 12:04 AM #22(11-25-2017, 08:17 PM)whipplem104 642 is a pile. I hate to say it but man I hate that engine. Maybe the worse diesel ever built. I would hate to blame emissions crap like everyone else but the truth is that I believe it is just a bad motor. If it was purely emissions stuff then the 2008 would be as solid as the om648. And it is not even close. As far as power capabilities I have no idea. they blow up stock all the time. And they drive a few hundred thousand miles all the time. I would say you have a 50/50 chance of getting past 150,000 miles without having to spend 10k on maintenance.
I don't know where you got this from, but it is complete BS what you are telling.
Here in europe we have thousands and thousand of these engines and they are all just fine.
I have had myself 3 of them and have put on all of them +300.000 km without any problem and just doing oil and filter changes every 30.000 km.
I agree that the inline 6 is maybe the last over engineered diesel benz made.
Grand cherokee WK (OM642)
Most of the things I have listed here are at least 1k dollars a piece to repair. And quite a few of them are way more than that. Oh I almost forgot the glow plugs that fail and the glow plug relay and the glow plugs will not come out and you have to drill them out.
One of my friends just sent me pictures of a warranty replacement motor. So the 2nd one that blew up at 20k miles. There is at least one or two of these at the dealership down the street from me with the engine sludged up or complete failure almost always and I have a friend a few miles away at another dealership that they replace these engines on a regular basis as they are a sprinter dealership.
I mean a lot of them.
whipplem104
11-27-2017, 01:23 AM #23I work on mercedes for a living and have many friends all over the U.S. that do as well. They all need oil cooler seals and timing chains and sludge up and injectors leak and fill the top full of carbon oil crap. Oil leak at the turbo inlet constently wiping out the intake flap motor. Intake manifold full of carbon causing flaps to break or bind. Then there is the turbo charger control motor that fails. Injectors fail and leak internally. The half a dozen egt sensors on them. And add blue tank heater, pump, nozzle failures. Egr cooked up. And everything I listed here happens on nearly every single one of them withing a 100k-150k. I am a 2 man shop and I have had all of these problems on 10-15 customers cars in the last 2 years. I stock oil cooler seals and timing chains in bulk. I have had more than one customer just give up. That they are spending 10 thousand dollars or more on them and it never ends.
Most of the things I have listed here are at least 1k dollars a piece to repair. And quite a few of them are way more than that. Oh I almost forgot the glow plugs that fail and the glow plug relay and the glow plugs will not come out and you have to drill them out.
One of my friends just sent me pictures of a warranty replacement motor. So the 2nd one that blew up at 20k miles. There is at least one or two of these at the dealership down the street from me with the engine sludged up or complete failure almost always and I have a friend a few miles away at another dealership that they replace these engines on a regular basis as they are a sprinter dealership.
I mean a lot of them.
50harleyrider
11-27-2017, 08:14 PM #25Good point Barotte. Thanks for hijacking my thread, guys. sorting through all the BS, sounds like a 648 is a good choice.
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It´s weird......we are looking for Petrols here (most are diesels) and you`re looking for Diesels over there (most are gassers).....If we`re talking about G-wagons....
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