OM648 Into Volvo c304 camping expedition vehicle
OM648 Into Volvo c304 camping expedition vehicle
I have purchased a volvo c304 6x6 to build out as an offroad sprintervan like expedition camper. I have done multiple engine swaps before but with more common engines like the chevy LS motors and the cummins 6bt and 4bt's. The mercedes world is a bit new to me as well as the electronics this car and motor posses.
I am posting here because I am hoping to get some of your guys' expertise from the MB world! And thank you all in advance!
I will try to post as many pictures as I can as I go along.
So far I had the car shipped last weekend, spent two days driving it around (without a hood) to make sure the motor ran well and so that I could pinpoint any issues before removing it. There were no issues so on with the chopping block!
Engine and trans were relatively easy to yank out. Where it gets hard will be keeping track of all the electronics. (as you can tell im a bit worried about this)
Im glad I have the entire car to pull parts from for this swap.
This weekend I am hoping to get the body off the frame of the volvo and do some test fitting. I have thought about removing the front subframe from the e320 and making it so I can bolt it back to the Volvo. Either that or welding in custom mounts will work as well. I have measured and im sure I will need to make a custom intake and exhaust to make it narrow enough to fit between the rails.
People have done the om606 swaps in this vehicle and I believe also the om617.
Any experts in here know much about the om648 and electronics that go with?
Here is my new build thread! This is a new thing to do me writing threads like this so bear with me.
I have purchased a volvo c304 6x6 to build out as an offroad sprintervan like expedition camper. I have done multiple engine swaps before but with more common engines like the chevy LS motors and the cummins 6bt and 4bt's. The mercedes world is a bit new to me as well as the electronics this car and motor posses.
I am posting here because I am hoping to get some of your guys' expertise from the MB world! And thank you all in advance!
I will try to post as many pictures as I can as I go along.
So far I had the car shipped last weekend, spent two days driving it around (without a hood) to make sure the motor ran well and so that I could pinpoint any issues before removing it. There were no issues so on with the chopping block!
Engine and trans were relatively easy to yank out. Where it gets hard will be keeping track of all the electronics. (as you can tell im a bit worried about this)
Im glad I have the entire car to pull parts from for this swap.
This weekend I am hoping to get the body off the frame of the volvo and do some test fitting. I have thought about removing the front subframe from the e320 and making it so I can bolt it back to the Volvo. Either that or welding in custom mounts will work as well. I have measured and im sure I will need to make a custom intake and exhaust to make it narrow enough to fit between the rails.
People have done the om606 swaps in this vehicle and I believe also the om617.
Any experts in here know much about the om648 and electronics that go with?
Cool project and I wish you well! Is there standing height inside that rig?
I like the OM648 but there's a much smaller pool of talent to draw from with a swap on that particular engine. From my (limited) understanding, your right to be concerned on the electronics side. To try and use the cars ECU is quite problematic since it requires integration with many many subsystems that aren't easy to graft from the donor vehicle to the new. I would contact Baldur to see if he's made any progress on a stand alone controller for that engine? Otherwise- there aren't too many folks with time to spare to offer guidance. I know Black smoke has used this engine... but I don't know of any other success stories.
Cool project and I wish you well! Is there standing height inside that rig?
(01-04-2019, 08:17 AM)jav1 I like the OM648 but there's a much smaller pool of talent to draw from with a swap on that particular engine. From my (limited) understanding, your right to be concerned on the electronics side. To try and use the cars ECU is quite problematic since it requires integration with many many subsystems that aren't easy to graft from the donor vehicle to the new. I would contact Baldur to see if he's made any progress on a stand alone controller for that engine? Otherwise- there aren't too many folks with time to spare to offer guidance. I know Black smoke has used this engine... but I don't know of any other success stories.
Cool project and I wish you well! Is there standing height inside that rig?
I am making progress on my new control system, getting closer to running my OM613 test mule.
As far as I know the 613 and 648 ECUs are a royal pain in the ass to delete the immobiliser from, which means they rely on a number of things from inside the car to work like steering column lock controller and electronic ignition switch.
This is something I hope to address with my current development.
Baldur Gislason
(01-04-2019, 08:17 AM)jav1 I like the OM648 but there's a much smaller pool of talent to draw from with a swap on that particular engine. From my (limited) understanding, your right to be concerned on the electronics side. To try and use the cars ECU is quite problematic since it requires integration with many many subsystems that aren't easy to graft from the donor vehicle to the new. I would contact Baldur to see if he's made any progress on a stand alone controller for that engine? Otherwise- there aren't too many folks with time to spare to offer guidance. I know Black smoke has used this engine... but I don't know of any other success stories.
Cool project and I wish you well! Is there standing height inside that rig?
I am making progress on my new control system, getting closer to running my OM613 test mule.
As far as I know the 613 and 648 ECUs are a royal pain in the ass to delete the immobiliser from, which means they rely on a number of things from inside the car to work like steering column lock controller and electronic ignition switch.
This is something I hope to address with my current development.
Baldur Gislason
(01-10-2019, 09:46 AM)Turbo Balder are you making a stand alone controller that can be used on any DI engine or is it specif to Mercedes CDI or what is the plan?
Any DI engine is the plan. First version solenoid injectors only. Piezo injectors planned later.
Baldur Gislason
whipplem104
01-10-2019, 03:38 PM #7Not taking away from you Baldur. I think any new product is great. But the level of complexity of running these engines and the tuning required is rather massive. I looked into the products that are available. It is a huge price into the market of DI control and tuning is intense. The factory ecu is already done and at OE level of accuracy. It is hard to beat. I keep the EIS and Keys but other than that the stock ecu is working with my automatic transmission controller. I have the steering lock in my car but emulators can be used very cheap. I can program up to 8 keys and it is still below what it normally costs to buy an ecu to run the engine much less tuning.
It would be interesting to now about control on the turbo system, how advanced system is the intention to be able to control?
Like a R2S with double VGT turbo chargers?
Bosch volume control valve on CP3/CP4 injectionspumps? two pumps?
Number of injectons / events for injectors? 8?
Just like a stand alone or can it be integrated in a car to speak with other units?
Baldur
It would be interesting to now about control on the turbo system, how advanced system is the intention to be able to control?
Like a R2S with double VGT turbo chargers?
Bosch volume control valve on CP3/CP4 injectionspumps? two pumps?
Number of injectons / events for injectors? 8?
Just like a stand alone or can it be integrated in a car to speak with other units?
(01-10-2019, 03:38 PM)whipplem104 Not taking away from you Baldur. I think any new product is great. But the level of complexity of running these engines and the tuning required is rather massive. I looked into the products that are available. It is a huge price into the market of DI control and tuning is intense. The factory ecu is already done and at OE level of accuracy. It is hard to beat. I keep the EIS and Keys but other than that the stock ecu is working with my automatic transmission controller. I have the steering lock in my car but emulators can be used very cheap. I can program up to 8 keys and it is still below what it normally costs to buy an ecu to run the engine much less tuning.
The complexity of the OEM systems is there primarily for emissions reasons. Good performance, drive-ability and fuel economy can be had with far less complexity in an application that does not require emissions controls.
The OE calibration is only any good in the OE application making the OE power, and it really isn't well understood by the aftermarket so the quality of performance tunes for the OE ECU is very poor in general.
Baldur Gislason
(01-10-2019, 03:38 PM)whipplem104 Not taking away from you Baldur. I think any new product is great. But the level of complexity of running these engines and the tuning required is rather massive. I looked into the products that are available. It is a huge price into the market of DI control and tuning is intense. The factory ecu is already done and at OE level of accuracy. It is hard to beat. I keep the EIS and Keys but other than that the stock ecu is working with my automatic transmission controller. I have the steering lock in my car but emulators can be used very cheap. I can program up to 8 keys and it is still below what it normally costs to buy an ecu to run the engine much less tuning.
The complexity of the OEM systems is there primarily for emissions reasons. Good performance, drive-ability and fuel economy can be had with far less complexity in an application that does not require emissions controls.
The OE calibration is only any good in the OE application making the OE power, and it really isn't well understood by the aftermarket so the quality of performance tunes for the OE ECU is very poor in general.
Baldur Gislason
(01-10-2019, 03:49 PM)Turbo Baldur
It would be interesting to now about control on the turbo system, how advanced system is the intention to be able to control?
Like a R2S with double VGT turbo chargers?
Bosch volume control valve on CP3/CP4 injectionspumps? two pumps?
Number of injectons / events for injectors? 8?
Just like a stand alone or can it be integrated in a car to speak with other units?
Control any turbocharger and any high pressure pump, sure, two pumps are no more complicated to control than one, in fact Cummins 24V racers routinely run two or three pumps in parallel on the OEM ECU.
Initially I am designing the system for 8 injectors and two injection events per injector per cycle. A pre injection and main injection. More than that does not benefit the engine in any way, only exhaust emissions.
The system will include my extremely versatile CAN bus networking interface as found on my other controllers so it can communicate with anything on the car that uses CAN bus.
Baldur Gislason
(01-10-2019, 03:49 PM)Turbo Baldur
It would be interesting to now about control on the turbo system, how advanced system is the intention to be able to control?
Like a R2S with double VGT turbo chargers?
Bosch volume control valve on CP3/CP4 injectionspumps? two pumps?
Number of injectons / events for injectors? 8?
Just like a stand alone or can it be integrated in a car to speak with other units?
Control any turbocharger and any high pressure pump, sure, two pumps are no more complicated to control than one, in fact Cummins 24V racers routinely run two or three pumps in parallel on the OEM ECU.
Initially I am designing the system for 8 injectors and two injection events per injector per cycle. A pre injection and main injection. More than that does not benefit the engine in any way, only exhaust emissions.
The system will include my extremely versatile CAN bus networking interface as found on my other controllers so it can communicate with anything on the car that uses CAN bus.
Baldur Gislason
whipplem104
01-10-2019, 07:03 PM #11I agree that there is an abundance of emissions stuff that is not necessary. I just mean that you are running a volumetric application that has injection duration for both injection events. And injection timing of each event and added bonus of rail pressure control to end up with a final known injeciton volume. So mapping all of this on a particular engine setup is time consuming. The computational data being done is fairly deep for the average guy. And as soon as you start modyfing parts like pumps and injectors all your data needs to be done again. This is going to be for each pump and injector type. I have seen the more crude versions at work for tractor pulling and yes it can work but it shows. And yes beyond basic tuning there is not much out there on the stock ecus unless you want to spend the time. and money. But the stock om648 pulls like a freight train and for 99% of the people it is awesome. I love mine. I have a spare ecu and was going to get it modyfied but I never bothered. And I dont even have an intercooler. It will do a burn out in 2nd gear. Just saying it is probably as fast as a modest pump and turbo upgrade om606 and runs factory. If it had another 100lbft of tq with just a tune it would just be a beast.
Bed is off now its time to get the cab loose so I can bring it up and down in the garage for test fitment. I need to find a nag1 or w5a580 soon so I can start mounting this thing!
Need to pressure wash and start cutting everything out that I will not need.
whipple what do you think about the zf8hp? or should I stick with the w5a580? I want the lowest overdrive possible to get me a good cruising rpm @ about 65mph. What do these motors like to cruise at? so far I think im at about 2600rpm at 65mph with the planned build with the w5a580
I am not opposed to using the factory EIS as long as its reliable. I want to be able to use this vehicle for extended cruising in other countries so reliability or at least being repairable is what I need as well. I dont plan to push a ton extra out of the om648 but it will be pushing around this 10,000lb truck when its all built and ready. I am looking forward to making some progress!!
Bed is off now its time to get the cab loose so I can bring it up and down in the garage for test fitment. I need to find a nag1 or w5a580 soon so I can start mounting this thing!
Need to pressure wash and start cutting everything out that I will not need.
whipple what do you think about the zf8hp? or should I stick with the w5a580? I want the lowest overdrive possible to get me a good cruising rpm @ about 65mph. What do these motors like to cruise at? so far I think im at about 2600rpm at 65mph with the planned build with the w5a580
My question regarding the pumps was for lowering pumping losses for great consumption but still plenty of power.
How hard is it to get more then 2 injections per cycle? is it a hardware or software limitation? simple can you use two units to get 4 event per cycle?
Regarding 2 injections per cycle is just beneficial for emissions, well bosch say for CRS2-25 system that use injectors like cri2-20/22/25 can use up to 8 individual injections for quieter combustion plus reduced fuel consumption and emissions (solenoid injectors)
http://www.bosch.co.jp/tms2015/en/produc...-25_EN.pdf
After a lot of looking I find and bought a bunch of CRI2-22 that will flow like 50% more then the BMW CRI3-22 injectors, and it would be nice to really see what is possible with them
perhaps you want to try some too
and the CRS3-27 system with CRI3-27(pizo) up to 10 event /cycle
thanks for the answer really looking forward to work with one... very interesting
My question regarding the pumps was for lowering pumping losses for great consumption but still plenty of power.
How hard is it to get more then 2 injections per cycle? is it a hardware or software limitation? simple can you use two units to get 4 event per cycle?
Regarding 2 injections per cycle is just beneficial for emissions, well bosch say for CRS2-25 system that use injectors like cri2-20/22/25 can use up to 8 individual injections for quieter combustion plus reduced fuel consumption and emissions (solenoid injectors)
http://www.bosch.co.jp/tms2015/en/produc...-25_EN.pdf
After a lot of looking I find and bought a bunch of CRI2-22 that will flow like 50% more then the BMW CRI3-22 injectors, and it would be nice to really see what is possible with them
perhaps you want to try some too
and the CRS3-27 system with CRI3-27(pizo) up to 10 event /cycle
(01-10-2019, 07:26 PM)Turbo thanks for the answer really looking forward to work with one... very interesting
My question regarding the pumps was for lowering pumping losses for great consumption but still plenty of power.
How hard is it to get more then 2 injections per cycle? is it a hardware or software limitation? simple can you use two units to get 4 event per cycle?
Regarding 2 injections per cycle is just beneficial for emissions, well bosch say for CRS2-25 system that use injectors like cri2-20/22/25 can use up to 8 individual injections for quieter combustion plus reduced fuel consumption and emissions (solenoid injectors)
http://www.bosch.co.jp/tms2015/en/produc...-25_EN.pdf
After a lot of looking I find and bought a bunch of CRI2-22 that will flow like 50% more then the BMW CRI3-22 injectors, and it would be nice to really see what is possible with them
perhaps you want to try some too
and the CRS3-27 system with CRI3-27(pizo) up to 10 event /cycle
There are a number of things that affect what can be done, but primarily it's the performance of the injector itself. Secondly it's the driver circuit and thirdly it's the control logic. My control logic currently needs about 100 microseconds between injection events for reliable operation. The driver circuit is boost assisted so it is capable of more frequent injections than the EDC15 which does not have a separate voltage booster circuit.
But you have to understand the purpose of each injection event to know how to calibrate the system. Pre injection is used to warm the charge air up just a little bit to speed up ignition of the main event (make combustion smoother, avoid diesel knocking). The main event then delivers all of the fuel that contributes to power. At low engine speeds the most modern systems may actually split the main injection into two or three closely spaced events to space out the delivery time without having to drop the pressure too far which hurts atomisation. Then you have optional post injection events that are just wasted fuel, do not contribute to making power in any way, shape or form. The first post injection event is to re-light the mixture to try to burn some of the soot that formed in the main combustion event. Second post injection event is then used to heat up the exhaust gas to warm up emissions control gear as well as regenerate DPF.
What makes common rail different from every other diesel control technique except hydraulic unit injectors which is the closest thing to CR, is that you have control of the injection pressure so you can control the injection duration independently of the injection quantity.
I suggest you send me a message if you want to discuss this further, as this is not the topic of this thread.
Baldur Gislason
(01-10-2019, 07:26 PM)Turbo thanks for the answer really looking forward to work with one... very interesting
My question regarding the pumps was for lowering pumping losses for great consumption but still plenty of power.
How hard is it to get more then 2 injections per cycle? is it a hardware or software limitation? simple can you use two units to get 4 event per cycle?
Regarding 2 injections per cycle is just beneficial for emissions, well bosch say for CRS2-25 system that use injectors like cri2-20/22/25 can use up to 8 individual injections for quieter combustion plus reduced fuel consumption and emissions (solenoid injectors)
http://www.bosch.co.jp/tms2015/en/produc...-25_EN.pdf
After a lot of looking I find and bought a bunch of CRI2-22 that will flow like 50% more then the BMW CRI3-22 injectors, and it would be nice to really see what is possible with them
perhaps you want to try some too
and the CRS3-27 system with CRI3-27(pizo) up to 10 event /cycle
There are a number of things that affect what can be done, but primarily it's the performance of the injector itself. Secondly it's the driver circuit and thirdly it's the control logic. My control logic currently needs about 100 microseconds between injection events for reliable operation. The driver circuit is boost assisted so it is capable of more frequent injections than the EDC15 which does not have a separate voltage booster circuit.
But you have to understand the purpose of each injection event to know how to calibrate the system. Pre injection is used to warm the charge air up just a little bit to speed up ignition of the main event (make combustion smoother, avoid diesel knocking). The main event then delivers all of the fuel that contributes to power. At low engine speeds the most modern systems may actually split the main injection into two or three closely spaced events to space out the delivery time without having to drop the pressure too far which hurts atomisation. Then you have optional post injection events that are just wasted fuel, do not contribute to making power in any way, shape or form. The first post injection event is to re-light the mixture to try to burn some of the soot that formed in the main combustion event. Second post injection event is then used to heat up the exhaust gas to warm up emissions control gear as well as regenerate DPF.
What makes common rail different from every other diesel control technique except hydraulic unit injectors which is the closest thing to CR, is that you have control of the injection pressure so you can control the injection duration independently of the injection quantity.
I suggest you send me a message if you want to discuss this further, as this is not the topic of this thread.
Baldur Gislason
So I have got the motor out of the merc and mounted into the new chassis.
I pulled every bit of wiring out of this car... (don't recommend if you dont have to. Its a complete pain in the ass)
Now its laying on the garage floor and hooked up to the ecu and battery. I can communicate with ecu and everything but I am having trouble getting it to start. I suppose up until this point is the easy part that most people could do. I am looking for some help for the next step.
My next project is to get the engine to run so I can start stripping the unnecessary wiring. at that point I will continue to mount the cab
I can get it to the point where the key will turn and my scanner shows that its getting start enable authorization except from (ME Motor Electronics)
alternatively output terminal 50 will never engage. It shows a yes coming in when I turn the key but it wont send the output.
Anyone on here used the original ecu and components to make these bitches run? I know Whipplem104 has! I have ordered his stand alone tcu to be able to run it with minimal wiring. Any other help is greatly appreciated!
So I have got the motor out of the merc and mounted into the new chassis.
I pulled every bit of wiring out of this car... (don't recommend if you dont have to. Its a complete pain in the ass)
Now its laying on the garage floor and hooked up to the ecu and battery. I can communicate with ecu and everything but I am having trouble getting it to start. I suppose up until this point is the easy part that most people could do. I am looking for some help for the next step.
My next project is to get the engine to run so I can start stripping the unnecessary wiring. at that point I will continue to mount the cab
I can get it to the point where the key will turn and my scanner shows that its getting start enable authorization except from (ME Motor Electronics)
alternatively output terminal 50 will never engage. It shows a yes coming in when I turn the key but it wont send the output.
Anyone on here used the original ecu and components to make these bitches run? I know Whipplem104 has! I have ordered his stand alone tcu to be able to run it with minimal wiring. Any other help is greatly appreciated!
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