A discussion on EGT and Exhaust back pressure on an OM606
A discussion on EGT and Exhaust back pressure on an OM606
50harleyrider
01-27-2020, 06:56 PM #1Does anyone have any data or experience on limititations of these two important figures given the prechamber configuration and various turbos used on our engines. I have been getting egt's in the 1500-1600 f range when boosting about 1 bar on long grades. Stock pump. I get a bit antsy above 1300f on stock components
Oddly- I found that when towing, going down a gear to raise RPM actually made EGT worse! So If I'm pulling heavy up a grade @ say 3200 RPM in 3rd gear, my EGT might be 1200 even as I'm losing speed and RPM... AS soon as I down shift to second and the RPM goes up, my EGT rises even if I back off the throttle to continue losing speed. It seems RPM has a bigger impact on EGT than load?
I do have a huge Intercooler and I'm setup for meth injection but I've not installed anything as yet. I haven't logged backpressure while towing so I can't help there.
That seems high to me... I back off when my EGT gets above 1250 for more than 5-10 seconds. I can spike 1400-1500 at full throttle but just momentarily. I've towed REALLY heavy with mine and even on a long grade, I could keep EGT under 1250.
Oddly- I found that when towing, going down a gear to raise RPM actually made EGT worse! So If I'm pulling heavy up a grade @ say 3200 RPM in 3rd gear, my EGT might be 1200 even as I'm losing speed and RPM... AS soon as I down shift to second and the RPM goes up, my EGT rises even if I back off the throttle to continue losing speed. It seems RPM has a bigger impact on EGT than load?
I do have a huge Intercooler and I'm setup for meth injection but I've not installed anything as yet. I haven't logged backpressure while towing so I can't help there.
50harleyrider
01-28-2020, 07:37 PM #4Looks like you agree that the 1500-1600 is high. Now what to do about it? A bigger inter cooler? Any brand or size I should look for? Mine is an ebay FMIC which might be the problem. I have the fueling set to produce only a little bit of smoke during these high egt's. I'm going to play with a higher flow air cleaner and inlet plumbing, larger diameter exhaust (I have the oe 2 1/2" diameter f150 exhaust with a flowmaster muffler, and no cat). Also more tweaks to decreasing fueling to a no smoke level.
It seems that these IDI engines are far more resistant to high EGT's than DI. Makes sense since the piston is practically flat so less heat gets into them. A large number of people are running hot tunes without EGT gauges and not melting anything. In fact I would say the head is at more risk. Somewheree I saw stock EGTs would reach 800*C (~1400*F) was it on the 603A or 617A. I would guess that 750*C (1350 F)sustained would be safe for a 606
That's good info! I did quite a bit of research and most of what I found pointed to 1250-1300F being the maximum safe EGT for sustained use. That number wasn't specific to IDI or the OM606... but it seemed like safe guidance from a few sources. It would be great to have some good numbers from folks running the 606.
As far as what to do... my feeling is the easiest and most effective solution is meth injection. I think a good intercooler is a good investment but the other approaches (intake/exhaust) I think will offer very modest improvements if any. I have 3" exhaust and given my back pressure readings, I know my turbo's hot side is the bottle neck in my system and know it's too small for my application but I haven't had time to install the larger unit. It will be interesting to see how the larger unit impacts back pressure and EGT.
BTW- my smaller VNT turbo easily produces 25 PSI of boost but that amount of boost (and the added fuel), make the EGT worse- not better. I've turned down my max fueling on the DSL1 since I'm not needing more power but with what I tow, EGT IS my primary concern.
Petar-
That's good info! I did quite a bit of research and most of what I found pointed to 1250-1300F being the maximum safe EGT for sustained use. That number wasn't specific to IDI or the OM606... but it seemed like safe guidance from a few sources. It would be great to have some good numbers from folks running the 606.
As far as what to do... my feeling is the easiest and most effective solution is meth injection. I think a good intercooler is a good investment but the other approaches (intake/exhaust) I think will offer very modest improvements if any. I have 3" exhaust and given my back pressure readings, I know my turbo's hot side is the bottle neck in my system and know it's too small for my application but I haven't had time to install the larger unit. It will be interesting to see how the larger unit impacts back pressure and EGT.
BTW- my smaller VNT turbo easily produces 25 PSI of boost but that amount of boost (and the added fuel), make the EGT worse- not better. I've turned down my max fueling on the DSL1 since I'm not needing more power but with what I tow, EGT IS my primary concern.
50harleyrider
01-29-2020, 05:35 PM #7I've got my tune pretty much smoke free now and am still seeing 1500+ egt on 30 second and longer hard pulls. Tomorrow I'm removing the muffler first before I go to the expense of a 3" exhaust and see if it lowers the egt. The stock 99 donor w210 had a 2 1/2" exhaust, resonator and muffler with the stock turbo. I don't think the om648 turbo would cause my high egt so maybe it's OK to leave alone based on petars' post. I'll still try straight piping tomorrow out of curiosity but doubt it will help simce my emap never goes above 2000 mb. BTW, Baldurs' DSL1 is fun to play with!
50harleyrider
01-29-2020, 05:49 PM #8Good to hear you pipe in JAV1. I assume you're up and running again. Try answering your emails once in a while. I also might try water or methanol injection. That would definitely help. let me know physically the simplest way to ad one. I think Baldurs' DSL1 will control it. I've also increased my max duty cycle similar to the tune you sent.
(01-28-2020, 07:37 PM)50harleyrider Looks like you agree that the 1500-1600 is high. Now what to do about it? A bigger inter cooler? Any brand or size I should look for? Mine is an ebay FMIC which might be the problem. I have the fueling set to produce only a little bit of smoke during these high egt's. I'm going to play with a higher flow air cleaner and inlet plumbing, larger diameter exhaust (I have the oe 2 1/2" diameter f150 exhaust with a flowmaster muffler, and no cat). Also more tweaks to decreasing fueling to a no smoke level.
Should be using at least a 3" exhaust system with any performance modifications. Also the mufflers need to be diesel mufflers which have larger holes in the baffles. Spintech makes a nice muffler that uses a different technology then baffles.
(01-28-2020, 07:37 PM)50harleyrider Looks like you agree that the 1500-1600 is high. Now what to do about it? A bigger inter cooler? Any brand or size I should look for? Mine is an ebay FMIC which might be the problem. I have the fueling set to produce only a little bit of smoke during these high egt's. I'm going to play with a higher flow air cleaner and inlet plumbing, larger diameter exhaust (I have the oe 2 1/2" diameter f150 exhaust with a flowmaster muffler, and no cat). Also more tweaks to decreasing fueling to a no smoke level.
Should be using at least a 3" exhaust system with any performance modifications. Also the mufflers need to be diesel mufflers which have larger holes in the baffles. Spintech makes a nice muffler that uses a different technology then baffles.
Are you sure your exhaust map is working and configured correctly?? 2000mB seems really low if your getting 1 bar of boost or more?? I know at 25-27PSi of boost (almost 3000mB on my MAP) I'm at over 4400mB on my exhaust MAP. That 2000 mb doesn't seem right. BTW what are you seeing for max boost?
And yes- since I repaired my TC adapter back in October, I've been up and running.
If you google DIY meth injection kit, there's some very good info on the yotatech site that will even give you part numbers and links to the components.
Are you sure your exhaust map is working and configured correctly?? 2000mB seems really low if your getting 1 bar of boost or more?? I know at 25-27PSi of boost (almost 3000mB on my MAP) I'm at over 4400mB on my exhaust MAP. That 2000 mb doesn't seem right. BTW what are you seeing for max boost?
And yes- since I repaired my TC adapter back in October, I've been up and running.
50harleyrider
01-30-2020, 11:20 AM #11I haven't' pushed it all the way as I'm really concerned about egt. Today I am checking the stop on the actuator using the '2-4 psi boost at full actuation and 2000 rpm' target in park. With my low emap numbers, I'm hoping I can close the vanes down a little farther.
50harleyrider
01-30-2020, 11:22 AM #13I haven't' pushed it all the way as I'm really concerned about egt. Today I am checking the stop on the actuator using the '2-4 psi boost at full actuation and 2000 rpm' target in park. With my low emap numbers, I'm hoping I can close the vanes down a little farther. What methodology did you use to set your stop? Wish I had someone close with a flow bench and Garrett knowledge. My long term plan is to put the electronic actuator back on as Baldur has informed me he has figured the protocol out and just needs to update the DSL1 firmware.
I don't have a stop on my current turbo...I'm not sure the 2359 has one either? I just adjusted the linkage on the actuator to give the range of motion I wanted. I couldn't tell you how many cc's I'm injecting but my max is set to about 90% of whatever the stock pump can put out. My boost limit is set to 25 psi... but it spikes close to 30 before the VNT can get under control. I don't have anyway to get intake temp?? My maf, which has an intake air temp sensor is pre IC and runs pretty close to ambient. No idea what my post IC intake temp is.
50harleyrider
01-30-2020, 08:17 PM #15I re-checked my vacuum control converted GTA2359VK stop setting today and it produces about 1250 mb at 2000 RPM full vacuum in park. I think still good. I also straight piped the truck today and wow what a difference! Everything came to life. EGT's dropped tp 1200f max and the truck accelerates unbelievably hard. The turbo easily hits (and exceeds) the current 2500 mb max boost in the tune. Plenty for the stock IP and good fuel mileage. I'm gonna have to start all over with my tune from Baldurs' basic vgt tune. I'll start with decreasing duty cycles throughout as the boost swings a bit wildly. Shout out to Zeeman so I'll probably invest in the Spintech diesel muffler as the highway drone is annoying straight piped. The Flowmaster muffler I had on it is going into the scrap heap. At this point, I don't see any need for water/methanol system.
(01-30-2020, 10:24 PM)jav1 that's great! So doesn't that confirm that your exhaust map readings weren't correct? It sounds like you had an exhaust restriction which should have shown up with high exhaust map readings.The whole system was choked down so bad I wasn't making enough boost to even show EMAP. It accelerates better than the 5.4 ever did. Are you running straight through exhaust? The Spintech mufflers are $300-ouch. I thought about a 97-2003 7.3 power stroke muffler as it was turbo charged so hopefully Ford made it big and not to restrictive.
50harleyrider
01-31-2020, 10:37 AM #17(01-30-2020, 10:24 PM)jav1 that's great! So doesn't that confirm that your exhaust map readings weren't correct? It sounds like you had an exhaust restriction which should have shown up with high exhaust map readings.The whole system was choked down so bad I wasn't making enough boost to even show EMAP. It accelerates better than the 5.4 ever did. Are you running straight through exhaust? The Spintech mufflers are $300-ouch. I thought about a 97-2003 7.3 power stroke muffler as it was turbo charged so hopefully Ford made it big and not to restrictive.
(01-31-2020, 10:37 AM)50harleyrider(01-30-2020, 10:24 PM)jav1 that's great! So doesn't that confirm that your exhaust map readings weren't correct? It sounds like you had an exhaust restriction which should have shown up with high exhaust map readings.The whole system was choked down so bad I wasn't making enough boost to even show EMAP. It accelerates better than the 5.4 ever did. Are you running straight through exhaust? The Spintech mufflers are $300-ouch. I thought about a 97-2003 7.3 power stroke muffler as it was turbo charged so hopefully Ford made it big and not to restrictive.
The Spintech mufflers are stainless and last forever. There design does not use baffles like most do that plug up the holes in the baffles over time. Check out there design and they sound great. The Ford muffler will probably be twice as big as you need size wise and will be for a 4" tube and be more then $300.00 for a new one.
(01-31-2020, 10:37 AM)50harleyrider(01-30-2020, 10:24 PM)jav1 that's great! So doesn't that confirm that your exhaust map readings weren't correct? It sounds like you had an exhaust restriction which should have shown up with high exhaust map readings.The whole system was choked down so bad I wasn't making enough boost to even show EMAP. It accelerates better than the 5.4 ever did. Are you running straight through exhaust? The Spintech mufflers are $300-ouch. I thought about a 97-2003 7.3 power stroke muffler as it was turbo charged so hopefully Ford made it big and not to restrictive.
The Spintech mufflers are stainless and last forever. There design does not use baffles like most do that plug up the holes in the baffles over time. Check out there design and they sound great. The Ford muffler will probably be twice as big as you need size wise and will be for a 4" tube and be more then $300.00 for a new one.
I told you my 606 was peppier than my 5.4! And you thought I was joking!
My 3" exhaust does have a stainless muffler but it's not the baffled type. It's more of a resonator where the pipe goes straight thru the body but the pipe is perforated into the muffler body / chamber (like a cherry Bomb without the fiberglass packing. It's basically straight piped but I also have a Stainless Cummins 5.9 diesel catalytic converter in-line so my exhaust tone with the turbo, cat and resonator is pretty subdued.
I told you my 606 was peppier than my 5.4! And you thought I was joking!
50harleyrider
02-05-2020, 03:56 PM #20I got the IP rack calibrated this morning as instructions are in Baldurs' DSL1 manual and the truck is really manageable now. The 606 definitely likes boost and the egt's stay below 1000F as long as it's boosting around 1800 to 2500 mb. It all really makes sense that a 3 liter engine moving the 5300 lb truck around needs to be high on it's efficiency curve most all the time. Going downhill at less than 20% throttle seems to be the only time it doesn't need boost. The 2359 vnt turbo is great! The truck isn't all that droney straight piped so i'll slowly add the cat and more as needed. Will probably need the 3" but will work toward that if required. Thanks for all the input and support.
That's great! I'm surprised (and jealous) that your EGT is that low... mine teeters near the danger zone right around 1250 F and I have to watch my throttle application to keep it in the safe zone. I'm curious, have you measured exhaust pressure versus boost/RPM? Also- I'm pretty sure your pyro is in the same place as mine (pre turbo)… when you floor the pedal for 10-15 seconds in a higher gear, doesn't your EGT spike to 1500+?
Richard-
That's great! I'm surprised (and jealous) that your EGT is that low... mine teeters near the danger zone right around 1250 F and I have to watch my throttle application to keep it in the safe zone. I'm curious, have you measured exhaust pressure versus boost/RPM? Also- I'm pretty sure your pyro is in the same place as mine (pre turbo)… when you floor the pedal for 10-15 seconds in a higher gear, doesn't your EGT spike to 1500+?
(02-06-2020, 10:29 AM)jav1 Richard-
That's great! I'm surprised (and jealous) that your EGT is that low... mine teeters near the danger zone right around 1250 F and I have to watch my throttle application to keep it in the safe zone. I'm curious, have you measured exhaust pressure versus boost/RPM? Also- I'm pretty sure your pyro is in the same place as mine (pre turbo)… when you floor the pedal for 10-15 seconds in a higher gear, doesn't your EGT spike to 1500+?
50harleyrider
02-06-2020, 11:38 AM #22it does go tp 1300 in overdrive but not with the tc unlocked. Are you using overdrive? The om 606 likes rpm and with the 24 valves, it breathes nicely. EMAP is staying well below the 1.5 factor at 2500 mb and yes my port is pre turbo. I am straight piped right now. What boost pressure are you seeing the spike at? If it is at above 80% throttle then you should decrease the fuel request there or request more boost. Let the DSL1 help you. Don't rely on your right foot. I know a good rule of thumb is to increase the boost at points of high egt if your turbo can make it but we have to look at the limitations of the oe IP. I'm trying to stay below 2500 mb. The GTA 2359 vlk can easily surpass that. Remember the DSL1 is only producing 1500 mb (1.5 bar) boost at 2500 because its' indicating psia. If you ask for more, you may damage the oe IP. I see why folks are always looking for bigger elements and turbos. I would like to know if there is anyone stateside that can put larger elements in our pumps. we can chase those lower egt's but water/meth may be simpler and you know the DSL1 is programmable for it if we do.
(02-06-2020, 10:29 AM)jav1 Richard-
That's great! I'm surprised (and jealous) that your EGT is that low... mine teeters near the danger zone right around 1250 F and I have to watch my throttle application to keep it in the safe zone. I'm curious, have you measured exhaust pressure versus boost/RPM? Also- I'm pretty sure your pyro is in the same place as mine (pre turbo)… when you floor the pedal for 10-15 seconds in a higher gear, doesn't your EGT spike to 1500+?
To be perfectly clear- I have a direct read boost gauge which is reading "relative" to atmosphere - "boost" - ... as well as my MAP sensor which is reading absolute. My boost target table (absolute) via the MAP is set to 2750 mB (approx. 1.75 bar -relative) or about 26 PSI of "boost". I'm getting that amount of boost easily and I can spike 30 Psi momentarily until VNT control stabilizes it at 26 psi. Even with my fuel map backed off to 90% of max fueling, I can easily spike 1500F on my EGT gauge in any gear above 1st.
I have A huge intercooler and my 3" exhaust is very free flowing but I know my current turbo's hot side is a little small as my EMAP at higher RPM can get above 4000 mB. BUT even before I see high EMAP, I see very high EGT when I floor it.
Yes- I'm using overdrive. I can spike EGT in any gear except 1st but only because it won't stay in 1st long enough to register enough rise on the pyro. TC locked or unlocked- I have more than enough fuel - even with high boost- to spike EGT above safe levels.
To be perfectly clear- I have a direct read boost gauge which is reading "relative" to atmosphere - "boost" - ... as well as my MAP sensor which is reading absolute. My boost target table (absolute) via the MAP is set to 2750 mB (approx. 1.75 bar -relative) or about 26 PSI of "boost". I'm getting that amount of boost easily and I can spike 30 Psi momentarily until VNT control stabilizes it at 26 psi. Even with my fuel map backed off to 90% of max fueling, I can easily spike 1500F on my EGT gauge in any gear above 1st.
I have A huge intercooler and my 3" exhaust is very free flowing but I know my current turbo's hot side is a little small as my EMAP at higher RPM can get above 4000 mB. BUT even before I see high EMAP, I see very high EGT when I floor it.
50harleyrider
02-06-2020, 05:01 PM #25We both have large intercoolers. I have seen discussions of too large limiting heat transfer but don't know enough to experiment with that. I haven't seen 4000 mb EMAP but will test it tomorrow. Did you try less than 90%? Curious what would happen as Petar says and so did Baldur: more boost= lower egt. too much fuel can cause the high egt. Can we figure the A/F ratio to see how close to stoichiometric (14.5 to 14.6 for a diesel) we are during these spikes? if I go above 2bar, I'll start blowing the silicone IC lines off the aluminum fittings or turbo.
For a 606 that's 499cc per cylinder. Volumetric efficiency is a bit of a guesswork, I would say 90% since it's a 4 valve head. So it's 449 cc of air.
1.5 bar boost gauge pressure (2.5 bar absolute), and assuming 40*C intake temperature (~100*F) intake density is 2.78kg/m3.
That works out to 1251mg of air in the cylinder. If you are maxed out on the 6mm pump that's around 90mm3/stroke, x0.832kg/liter diesel fuel density = ~75mg of fuel. 1251/75=16.7:1 AFR. IMO too rich for sustained running, aim for about 18:1 for a safe tune for sustained full power.
Raising the boost to ~1.7 bar, if the turbo can handle it, assuming charge air temp's don't go up will get you to 18:1 AFR. You could also reduce fueling to ~84cc.
Note that this is a bit of guesswork since we don't know exact volumetric efficiency nor the intake temperature. For best accuracy we need a wideband AFR. But tuning for safe EGT's works too. Note that since you have a 6mm pump at those fueling rates the injection time is long -> end of injection time is late -> high EGT for a given AFR.
Yes, we need intake manifold pressure, intake manifold temperature, volumetric efficiency and engine displacement to figure out airmass in the cylinder.
For a 606 that's 499cc per cylinder. Volumetric efficiency is a bit of a guesswork, I would say 90% since it's a 4 valve head. So it's 449 cc of air.
1.5 bar boost gauge pressure (2.5 bar absolute), and assuming 40*C intake temperature (~100*F) intake density is 2.78kg/m3.
That works out to 1251mg of air in the cylinder. If you are maxed out on the 6mm pump that's around 90mm3/stroke, x0.832kg/liter diesel fuel density = ~75mg of fuel. 1251/75=16.7:1 AFR. IMO too rich for sustained running, aim for about 18:1 for a safe tune for sustained full power.
Raising the boost to ~1.7 bar, if the turbo can handle it, assuming charge air temp's don't go up will get you to 18:1 AFR. You could also reduce fueling to ~84cc.
Note that this is a bit of guesswork since we don't know exact volumetric efficiency nor the intake temperature. For best accuracy we need a wideband AFR. But tuning for safe EGT's works too. Note that since you have a 6mm pump at those fueling rates the injection time is long -> end of injection time is late -> high EGT for a given AFR.
50harleyrider
02-07-2020, 11:34 AM #27Shouldn't we have a charge air temperature probe? Might tell us a lot about the IC efficienency. For a given boost pressure, a high charge air temperature is going to decrease the density of the charge air thus killing efficiency. I'm going to ask Baldur to provide that as a sensor output if only for observation and calculations and for us to more empiracly choose IC's and battle egt's. From what I can tell, the DSL1 only senses inlet ait temp. I think I'll go ahead and add a temp port on my IC outlet and add a gauge to my cabin pod. Will be tough to actually use it to tune as I'm sure it will change with boost pressure and we really need multiple data point recordings as a function of boost p. I think Baldurs software has user defined plotting capability but too complicated for me right now. I hope he chimes here.
great info- I need to re-read it a few times... it's not easily understood. I am at 1.75 bar of boost- not 1.5 and I'm at 90% of max fueling with the 6mm pump and EGT at full throttle spikes above 1500F.
Richard you can add an intake air temp sensor and wire it to one of the unused inputs in the DSL and log intake air temp... that's what Baldur did for us on the EMAP sensor. The provisions are built in you juts have to define the sensor/variable like the EMAP.
Petar-
great info- I need to re-read it a few times... it's not easily understood. I am at 1.75 bar of boost- not 1.5 and I'm at 90% of max fueling with the 6mm pump and EGT at full throttle spikes above 1500F.
Richard you can add an intake air temp sensor and wire it to one of the unused inputs in the DSL and log intake air temp... that's what Baldur did for us on the EMAP sensor. The provisions are built in you juts have to define the sensor/variable like the EMAP.
It's weird, when I was on stock pump on my 603, the water/meth injection didn't reduce but in fact added EGT as it was underfueled/lean and really loved the extra fuel. It also equated to a very noticeable increase in power. And this was with only a 70-30 water/meth concentration (typical blue winter washer fluid). On the flip side, when the car was smoking heavily after having a bunch of extra fuel from the 7.5 dieselmeken pump, the water meth actually lowered EGT as it cooled air temps down and increased charge density. The methanol has a much higher volatility and acts as a catalyst for the diesel too.
The other side effect is the extra mass of the steam going out the tailpipe lights the turbo like you wouldn't believe. I've noticed the sooner you can start feeding it in without quenching the diesel combustion, the faster it spools. If you have a variable controller it's a fantastic spool aid as well.
TwoMuchBoost
02-07-2020, 04:44 PM #29As Petar mentioned, with stock 6mm elements, the extra fuel when trying to make more power comes very late in the cycle. Have you tried re-timing the pump with more base timing? A few extra degrees of burn time in conjunction with some water injection will get you where you need to be + more power.
It's weird, when I was on stock pump on my 603, the water/meth injection didn't reduce but in fact added EGT as it was underfueled/lean and really loved the extra fuel. It also equated to a very noticeable increase in power. And this was with only a 70-30 water/meth concentration (typical blue winter washer fluid). On the flip side, when the car was smoking heavily after having a bunch of extra fuel from the 7.5 dieselmeken pump, the water meth actually lowered EGT as it cooled air temps down and increased charge density. The methanol has a much higher volatility and acts as a catalyst for the diesel too.
The other side effect is the extra mass of the steam going out the tailpipe lights the turbo like you wouldn't believe. I've noticed the sooner you can start feeding it in without quenching the diesel combustion, the faster it spools. If you have a variable controller it's a fantastic spool aid as well.
50harleyrider
02-07-2020, 05:20 PM #30Jav1 Why do you run 90% fueling? so you set the max fueling at 225? Too much fuel causes high egt's. I guess Baldur set up the DSL1 with the fuel limit table maxed out at 200 assuming the 250 value = 100% of the fuel the 6mm elements can deliver. At least that's what the rack parameter fuel quantity breakpoints table indicates. I did try a wide open run and emap barely ever exceeds boost so I'm well within the 1.5 factor. Baldur said this about fuel quantity and I quote: "This table is in units of fuel quantity and 200 is double that of 100. However this table only has an effect to restrict, it's the fuel request table that works to request a fuel quantity and this table will restrict the maximum fuel quantity possible based on boost pressure. So if the fuel request table has numbers below 100 then a change in the limit table from 100 to 200 has no effect whatsoever."
(02-07-2020, 04:44 PM)TwoMuchBoost As Petar mentioned, with stock 6mm elements, the extra fuel when trying to make more power comes very late in the cycle. Have you tried re-timing the pump with more base timing? A few extra degrees of burn time in conjunction with some water injection will get you where you need to be + more power.
It's weird, when I was on stock pump on my 603, the water/meth injection didn't reduce but in fact added EGT as it was underfueled/lean and really loved the extra fuel. It also equated to a very noticeable increase in power. And this was with only a 70-30 water/meth concentration (typical blue winter washer fluid). On the flip side, when the car was smoking heavily after having a bunch of extra fuel from the 7.5 dieselmeken pump, the water meth actually lowered EGT as it cooled air temps down and increased charge density. The methanol has a much higher volatility and acts as a catalyst for the diesel too.
The other side effect is the extra mass of the steam going out the tailpipe lights the turbo like you wouldn't believe. I've noticed the sooner you can start feeding it in without quenching the diesel combustion, the faster it spools. If you have a variable controller it's a fantastic spool aid as well.
That's interesting and definitely doable in the DSL1 software under pump angle control : setpoint table. Try that JAV1
50harleyrider
02-07-2020, 05:31 PM #31(02-07-2020, 04:44 PM)TwoMuchBoost As Petar mentioned, with stock 6mm elements, the extra fuel when trying to make more power comes very late in the cycle. Have you tried re-timing the pump with more base timing? A few extra degrees of burn time in conjunction with some water injection will get you where you need to be + more power.
It's weird, when I was on stock pump on my 603, the water/meth injection didn't reduce but in fact added EGT as it was underfueled/lean and really loved the extra fuel. It also equated to a very noticeable increase in power. And this was with only a 70-30 water/meth concentration (typical blue winter washer fluid). On the flip side, when the car was smoking heavily after having a bunch of extra fuel from the 7.5 dieselmeken pump, the water meth actually lowered EGT as it cooled air temps down and increased charge density. The methanol has a much higher volatility and acts as a catalyst for the diesel too.
The other side effect is the extra mass of the steam going out the tailpipe lights the turbo like you wouldn't believe. I've noticed the sooner you can start feeding it in without quenching the diesel combustion, the faster it spools. If you have a variable controller it's a fantastic spool aid as well.
That's interesting and definitely doable in the DSL1 software under pump angle control : setpoint table. Try that JAV1
50harleyrider
02-14-2020, 02:07 PM #32just wanted to report affects of exhaust restrictions on my 606. I added a small 18" long auger style resonator to help with the drone. It did help but unfortunately increased my egt. I'm seeing 1200+ with pretty much any boost now and increasing up to 1500. Not good! I find it interesting that the EMAP hasn't increased much and still stays within 1.5 x boost yet egt's increase. I have 2.5" now with a cherry bomb glass packed muffler, resonator and a 12" long diesel cat. Every one of these components affect power which sucks. The donor car was quiet in the exhaust and it was 2.5" with all the same restrictions I have and more. I know the little KKK waste gated turbo wasn't much on boost. I would love to know what the oe egt's were. I'm gonna play a bit more with decreased fueling and see what point the higher A/F ratio kills power but decreases egt to ~1350 max.
(02-14-2020, 02:07 PM)50harleyrider just wanted to report affects of exhaust restrictions on my 606. I added a small 18" long auger style resonator to help with the drone. It did help but unfortunately increased my egt. I'm seeing 1200+ with pretty much any boost now and increasing up to 1500. Not good! I find it interesting that the EMAP hasn't increased much and still stays within 1.5 x boost yet egt's increase. I have 2.5" now with a cherry bomb glass packed muffler, resonator and a 12" long diesel cat. Every one of these components affect power which sucks. The donor car was quiet in the exhaust and it was 2.5" with all the same restrictions I have and more. I know the little KKK waste gated turbo wasn't much on boost. I would love to know what the oe egt's were. I'm gonna play a bit more with decreased fueling and see what point the higher A/F ratio kills power but decreases egt to ~1350 max.
Why do you have a glass packed muffler, Resonator and a 12" cat on it ?
(02-14-2020, 02:07 PM)50harleyrider just wanted to report affects of exhaust restrictions on my 606. I added a small 18" long auger style resonator to help with the drone. It did help but unfortunately increased my egt. I'm seeing 1200+ with pretty much any boost now and increasing up to 1500. Not good! I find it interesting that the EMAP hasn't increased much and still stays within 1.5 x boost yet egt's increase. I have 2.5" now with a cherry bomb glass packed muffler, resonator and a 12" long diesel cat. Every one of these components affect power which sucks. The donor car was quiet in the exhaust and it was 2.5" with all the same restrictions I have and more. I know the little KKK waste gated turbo wasn't much on boost. I would love to know what the oe egt's were. I'm gonna play a bit more with decreased fueling and see what point the higher A/F ratio kills power but decreases egt to ~1350 max.
Why do you have a glass packed muffler, Resonator and a 12" cat on it ?
I've been under the weather but that's great info and very similar to mine except that at mid throttle with moderate RPM I can accelerate briskly and only see 10-12 PSI of boost and EGT stays at 800-1000f. My EGT doesn't really spike up until higher RPM (3500+) and anything above 3/4 throttle.
BTW- do you know for sure that you can change injection timing with the DSL1? I thought me had to adjust base timing at the pump itself?
Richard,
I've been under the weather but that's great info and very similar to mine except that at mid throttle with moderate RPM I can accelerate briskly and only see 10-12 PSI of boost and EGT stays at 800-1000f. My EGT doesn't really spike up until higher RPM (3500+) and anything above 3/4 throttle.
BTW- do you know for sure that you can change injection timing with the DSL1? I thought me had to adjust base timing at the pump itself?
Why do you have a glass packed muffler, Resonator and a 12" cat on it ?
My answer: No cat will get me in trouble for state inspection. Glass pack is straight thru so less restriction. Resonator to kill the drone.
Jav 1: I don't know for sure but I will ask Baldur. Sure looks possible based on my post 31. Did you look at that table?
50harleyrider
02-15-2020, 07:37 AM #35Zeeman wrote:
Why do you have a glass packed muffler, Resonator and a 12" cat on it ?
My answer: No cat will get me in trouble for state inspection. Glass pack is straight thru so less restriction. Resonator to kill the drone.
Jav 1: I don't know for sure but I will ask Baldur. Sure looks possible based on my post 31. Did you look at that table?
(02-15-2020, 07:37 AM)50harleyrider Zeeman wrote:
Why do you have a glass packed muffler, Resonator and a 12" cat on it ?
My answer: No cat will get me in trouble for state inspection. Glass pack is straight thru so less restriction. Resonator to kill the drone.
Jav 1: I don't know for sure but I will ask Baldur. Sure looks possible based on my post 31. Did you look at that table?
Are you saying the donor car had all these items in the exhaust ?
(02-15-2020, 07:37 AM)50harleyrider Zeeman wrote:
Why do you have a glass packed muffler, Resonator and a 12" cat on it ?
My answer: No cat will get me in trouble for state inspection. Glass pack is straight thru so less restriction. Resonator to kill the drone.
Jav 1: I don't know for sure but I will ask Baldur. Sure looks possible based on my post 31. Did you look at that table?
Are you saying the donor car had all these items in the exhaust ?
The VP37 pumps Baldur is referring to are on TDI's. My next build will most likely be a 2.5 TDI V6 as they are so much shorter and easier to get into a jeep or small truck. There are AUDI's and VW Touareg's in the US we can use for donors. Also Mercedes v6 diesels.
50harleyrider
02-19-2020, 05:39 PM #38w210 sure did. I really want a fairly quiet system. As I get older, drone and low frequency sounds really bug me. My truck is running really great now since I got the fueling, boost and duty cycles all good. The om648 vgt turbo makes great boost from 1000 RPM up and Baldurs' DSL1 make it fun to dial it in. My EGT is peaking at about 1350 now and I'm hoping a 3 or 4" exhaust will help get that down into the 1200 range. More boost really helps the egt also.
The VP37 pumps Baldur is referring to are on TDI's. My next build will most likely be a 2.5 TDI V6 as they are so much shorter and easier to get into a jeep or small truck. There are AUDI's and VW Touareg's in the US we can use for donors. Also Mercedes v6 diesels.
50harleyrider
07-18-2020, 07:03 PM #39A summertime look at EGT's: I've found they have gotten much higher with the 90+F temps right now which would indicate a need for a larger or more efficient ic unit. Mine is large but was sourced on Ebay so I really don't know how good it is. It does sit in the front and low to take advantage of the 97 F150 bumper opening. It is 2" thick,2 ft long x 7" high with 7 rows of passes. Anyone got any advice for a proven brand and size to look for?
** Update- My IC is a front mount 23" x 13" x 3" with 2-1/2" ports (down facing).
My egt's have actually gotten better. I found that a few of my silicon boots were leaking and replaced them all with 4 ply and cranked the t-bolts a little more so than before. It's helped a lot. My IC (a large ebay unit) seems to be performing pretty well. I'll try to find the spec for it and post later.
** Update- My IC is a front mount 23" x 13" x 3" with 2-1/2" ports (down facing).
50harleyrider
07-25-2020, 03:51 PM #41Yours (intercooler lol) is quite a bit bigger than mine. I'll probably upsize later in the fall. too friggin hot to do anything now.
50harleyrider
09-09-2020, 07:26 PM #42Just a quick update on my egt woes. My DSL1 tune had some flaky max duty cycle numbers. Thanks to Baldurs advice pinpointing it, I have found higher (80%) duty cycles in the 1000-2500 range for effective throttle ranges in the 30-80 % ranges have brought the max egt's way down to the mid 1100F range with nice boost up to 2500 mb where I capped it. The 648 turbo should easily produce 3000 mb but right now my emap is tracking about 1.5 x boost so until I decide to put a real tube exhaust header and bigger IP elements in it, i'm leaving well enough alone. Spoolup boost is improved tremendously resulting in some seriously sweet launches. How a 3 liter can launch a 5500 pound truck with oversize tires is nothing short of amazing. The V10 gasser torque converter I'm running now helps with the higher stall. As always, kudos to Baldur and I recommend a good vgt turbo for applications similar to mine. Finally I can get to fueling tweaks to maximize economy although I'm already getting 17 mpg in town.
jav1 That's great! Can you elaborate on the flaky duty cycles and how you found it?Baldur found it. I'll just email you the before and after .cud files. It seems we have to look at max tables for serious tuning. Requested tables mainly just set the baseline.
50harleyrider
09-16-2020, 03:17 PM #44jav1 That's great! Can you elaborate on the flaky duty cycles and how you found it?Baldur found it. I'll just email you the before and after .cud files. It seems we have to look at max tables for serious tuning. Requested tables mainly just set the baseline.
X Double Dot
09-29-2020, 09:18 AM #45The "max" tables you are referring to, is that for the pump control loop or the boost control loop?
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