Custom turbo
Custom turbo
07-29-2020, 01:46 PM
#1
I know a compound or sequential set up would be able to do that, but it is just a lot of extra stuff to deal with and to fail. A VNT turbine would allow me to be able to adjust when boost starts to come in, but they can be restrictive. The issue is the VNT turbo compressors "generally" do not want to make 30+Lbs of boost the 50lbs/min range without being way out of their maps.
I was thinking of a S200 turbo with a 12 cm twin scroll turbine housing and a quick spool valve, but I don't think choking off the turbine to 6cm will get me the boost as soon as say a GT25 VNT turbine will, so I am thinking about taking a GT25V turbine and center section and mating a S200 compressor to it. I most likely will have to bleed off some air on the bottom end to keep the compressor with in the lower end surge limit but it will definitely generate the boost at the volume I am looking for and the VNT turbine should get me the boost curve I want.
In a perfect world I would make a new header that had an external waste gate to help control the EMP and boost levels in conjunction with the VNT pod, but I think there is enough room for an adapter manifold (between the stock manifold and the turbine flange) with an oval port for a waste gate.
I don't want to get into the " a S200 compressor will not fit on a GT25V turbine shaft", yada yada. I would like some feed back as to how crazy such a set up would be in operation. I know I will need to do some bottom end by-pass/bleed most likely to keep the compressor happy, but I have seen a few of those set ups and they work well.
A twin scroll is simpler and would flow better, but I really like the adjust ability of a VNT. I have put them on other MBs and was able to control how responsive the turbo is very easy. They just max out at 20 lbs lol.
Thoughts?
I have been going back and forth on turbo choices and setups for my 617a with a super pump and really want to stay away from twins of any configuration. I want to be able to have 5lbs as close to right off idle as I can and be able to make 30 to 35lbs of boost quickly and up to 5000 ish RPM. Target power range with the engine mods is high 300 to low 400HP.
I know a compound or sequential set up would be able to do that, but it is just a lot of extra stuff to deal with and to fail. A VNT turbine would allow me to be able to adjust when boost starts to come in, but they can be restrictive. The issue is the VNT turbo compressors "generally" do not want to make 30+Lbs of boost the 50lbs/min range without being way out of their maps.
I was thinking of a S200 turbo with a 12 cm twin scroll turbine housing and a quick spool valve, but I don't think choking off the turbine to 6cm will get me the boost as soon as say a GT25 VNT turbine will, so I am thinking about taking a GT25V turbine and center section and mating a S200 compressor to it. I most likely will have to bleed off some air on the bottom end to keep the compressor with in the lower end surge limit but it will definitely generate the boost at the volume I am looking for and the VNT turbine should get me the boost curve I want.
In a perfect world I would make a new header that had an external waste gate to help control the EMP and boost levels in conjunction with the VNT pod, but I think there is enough room for an adapter manifold (between the stock manifold and the turbine flange) with an oval port for a waste gate.
I don't want to get into the " a S200 compressor will not fit on a GT25V turbine shaft", yada yada. I would like some feed back as to how crazy such a set up would be in operation. I know I will need to do some bottom end by-pass/bleed most likely to keep the compressor happy, but I have seen a few of those set ups and they work well.
A twin scroll is simpler and would flow better, but I really like the adjust ability of a VNT. I have put them on other MBs and was able to control how responsive the turbo is very easy. They just max out at 20 lbs lol.
Thoughts?
07-29-2020, 10:07 PM
#2
(07-29-2020, 01:46 PM)OM616 I have been going back and forth on turbo choices and setups for my 617a with a super pump and really want to stay away from twins of any configuration. I want to be able to have 5lbs as close to right off idle as I can and be able to make 30 to 35lbs of boost quickly and up to 5000 ish RPM. Target power range with the engine mods is high 300 to low 400HP.Not to get off subject I'm curious, what is the redline on a 616? Will you be doing anything to beef up the valve train and doing anything to lower compression? I had an unfortunate failure last month with my 617...
I know a compound or sequential set up would be able to do that, but it is just a lot of extra stuff to deal with and to fail. A VNT turbine would allow me to be able to adjust when boost starts to come in, but they can be restrictive. The issue is the VNT turbo compressors "generally" do not want to make 30+Lbs of boost the 50lbs/min range without being way out of their maps.
I was thinking of a S200 turbo with a 12 cm twin scroll turbine housing and a quick spool valve, but I don't think choking off the turbine to 6cm will get me the boost as soon as say a GT25 VNT turbine will, so I am thinking about taking a GT25V turbine and center section and mating a S200 compressor to it. I most likely will have to bleed off some air on the bottom end to keep the compressor with in the lower end surge limit but it will definitely generate the boost at the volume I am looking for and the VNT turbine should get me the boost curve I want.
In a perfect world I would make a new header that had an external waste gate to help control the EMP and boost levels in conjunction with the VNT pod, but I think there is enough room for an adapter manifold (between the stock manifold and the turbine flange) with an oval port for a waste gate.
I don't want to get into the " a S200 compressor will not fit on a GT25V turbine shaft", yada yada. I would like some feed back as to how crazy such a set up would be in operation. I know I will need to do some bottom end by-pass/bleed most likely to keep the compressor happy, but I have seen a few of those set ups and they work well.
A twin scroll is simpler and would flow better, but I really like the adjust ability of a VNT. I have put them on other MBs and was able to control how responsive the turbo is very easy. They just max out at 20 lbs lol.
Thoughts?
Austincarnut
07-29-2020, 10:07 PM #2(07-29-2020, 01:46 PM)OM616 I have been going back and forth on turbo choices and setups for my 617a with a super pump and really want to stay away from twins of any configuration. I want to be able to have 5lbs as close to right off idle as I can and be able to make 30 to 35lbs of boost quickly and up to 5000 ish RPM. Target power range with the engine mods is high 300 to low 400HP.Not to get off subject I'm curious, what is the redline on a 616? Will you be doing anything to beef up the valve train and doing anything to lower compression? I had an unfortunate failure last month with my 617...
I know a compound or sequential set up would be able to do that, but it is just a lot of extra stuff to deal with and to fail. A VNT turbine would allow me to be able to adjust when boost starts to come in, but they can be restrictive. The issue is the VNT turbo compressors "generally" do not want to make 30+Lbs of boost the 50lbs/min range without being way out of their maps.
I was thinking of a S200 turbo with a 12 cm twin scroll turbine housing and a quick spool valve, but I don't think choking off the turbine to 6cm will get me the boost as soon as say a GT25 VNT turbine will, so I am thinking about taking a GT25V turbine and center section and mating a S200 compressor to it. I most likely will have to bleed off some air on the bottom end to keep the compressor with in the lower end surge limit but it will definitely generate the boost at the volume I am looking for and the VNT turbine should get me the boost curve I want.
In a perfect world I would make a new header that had an external waste gate to help control the EMP and boost levels in conjunction with the VNT pod, but I think there is enough room for an adapter manifold (between the stock manifold and the turbine flange) with an oval port for a waste gate.
I don't want to get into the " a S200 compressor will not fit on a GT25V turbine shaft", yada yada. I would like some feed back as to how crazy such a set up would be in operation. I know I will need to do some bottom end by-pass/bleed most likely to keep the compressor happy, but I have seen a few of those set ups and they work well.
A twin scroll is simpler and would flow better, but I really like the adjust ability of a VNT. I have put them on other MBs and was able to control how responsive the turbo is very easy. They just max out at 20 lbs lol.
Thoughts?
08-10-2020, 09:30 PM
#4
(07-30-2020, 01:27 PM)OM616 what happened?I over rev'd it and dropped a valve. Well more like stretched the shit out of it then it hung open and kissed the piston. All 5 cyl have valve guide material imbedded in them. I was a blast till the end. If only the valve train was more resilient...
Austincarnut
08-10-2020, 09:30 PM #4(07-30-2020, 01:27 PM)OM616 what happened?I over rev'd it and dropped a valve. Well more like stretched the shit out of it then it hung open and kissed the piston. All 5 cyl have valve guide material imbedded in them. I was a blast till the end. If only the valve train was more resilient...
08-11-2020, 09:27 AM
#5
(08-10-2020, 09:30 PM)Austincarnut(07-30-2020, 01:27 PM)OM616 what happened?I over rev'd it and dropped a valve. Well more like stretched the shit out of it then it hung open and kissed the piston. All 5 cyl have valve guide material imbedded in them. I was a blast till the end. If only the valve train was more resilient...
What was your average sustained and highest EGT while you were thrashing on it?
(08-10-2020, 09:30 PM)Austincarnut(07-30-2020, 01:27 PM)OM616 what happened?I over rev'd it and dropped a valve. Well more like stretched the shit out of it then it hung open and kissed the piston. All 5 cyl have valve guide material imbedded in them. I was a blast till the end. If only the valve train was more resilient...
What was your average sustained and highest EGT while you were thrashing on it?
08-27-2020, 05:54 PM
#6
(08-11-2020, 09:27 AM)OM616I was running no more than 1100*F going up hill with ac on at full boost on a hot day(08-10-2020, 09:30 PM)Austincarnut(07-30-2020, 01:27 PM)OM616 what happened?I over rev'd it and dropped a valve. Well more like stretched the shit out of it then it hung open and kissed the piston. All 5 cyl have valve guide material imbedded in them. I was a blast till the end. If only the valve train was more resilient...
What was your average sustained and highest EGT while you were thrashing on it?
Austincarnut
08-27-2020, 05:54 PM #6(08-11-2020, 09:27 AM)OM616I was running no more than 1100*F going up hill with ac on at full boost on a hot day(08-10-2020, 09:30 PM)Austincarnut(07-30-2020, 01:27 PM)OM616 what happened?I over rev'd it and dropped a valve. Well more like stretched the shit out of it then it hung open and kissed the piston. All 5 cyl have valve guide material imbedded in them. I was a blast till the end. If only the valve train was more resilient...
What was your average sustained and highest EGT while you were thrashing on it?
08-31-2020, 10:55 AM
#7
(08-27-2020, 05:54 PM)Austincarnut(08-11-2020, 09:27 AM)OM616I was running no more than 1100*F going up hill with ac on at full boost on a hot day(08-10-2020, 09:30 PM)Austincarnut I over rev'd it and dropped a valve. Well more like stretched the shit out of it then it hung open and kissed the piston. All 5 cyl have valve guide material imbedded in them. I was a blast till the end. If only the valve train was more resilient...
What was your average sustained and highest EGT while you were thrashing on it?
Valve seat spring pressure has a lot to do with valve cooling. As boost (for intakes) EMP (for exhaust) pressure increases effective seat pressure decreases.
Additionally, if the spring pressure is not enough, the valve will bounce on the seat which significantly reduces the cooling of the valve which can result in the valve sinking or dishing. As far as I know, the OM61X engines redline is around 4500 ish at only 10/12 PSI of boost which on a stock T3 would generate around 15lbs of EMP. And that is will very little fueling. It sounds like you have increased fueling, boost, EMP, and RPM enough to push the valvetraine beyond its working range.
Valve cooling is all about seat pressure, and in really extreme set ups, seat material. Springs need to matched to suit the cam profile, boost, EMP, and RPM range.
Another thing I have seen is the valve nuts coming loose.
(08-27-2020, 05:54 PM)Austincarnut(08-11-2020, 09:27 AM)OM616I was running no more than 1100*F going up hill with ac on at full boost on a hot day(08-10-2020, 09:30 PM)Austincarnut I over rev'd it and dropped a valve. Well more like stretched the shit out of it then it hung open and kissed the piston. All 5 cyl have valve guide material imbedded in them. I was a blast till the end. If only the valve train was more resilient...
What was your average sustained and highest EGT while you were thrashing on it?
Valve seat spring pressure has a lot to do with valve cooling. As boost (for intakes) EMP (for exhaust) pressure increases effective seat pressure decreases.
Additionally, if the spring pressure is not enough, the valve will bounce on the seat which significantly reduces the cooling of the valve which can result in the valve sinking or dishing. As far as I know, the OM61X engines redline is around 4500 ish at only 10/12 PSI of boost which on a stock T3 would generate around 15lbs of EMP. And that is will very little fueling. It sounds like you have increased fueling, boost, EMP, and RPM enough to push the valvetraine beyond its working range.
Valve cooling is all about seat pressure, and in really extreme set ups, seat material. Springs need to matched to suit the cam profile, boost, EMP, and RPM range.
Another thing I have seen is the valve nuts coming loose.
09-02-2020, 09:45 PM
#8
(08-31-2020, 10:55 AM)OM616(08-27-2020, 05:54 PM)Austincarnut(08-11-2020, 09:27 AM)OM616I was running no more than 1100*F going up hill with ac on at full boost on a hot day
What was your average sustained and highest EGT while you were thrashing on it?
Valve seat spring pressure has a lot to do with valve cooling. As boost (for intakes) EMP (for exhaust) pressure increases effective seat pressure decreases.
Additionally, if the spring pressure is not enough, the valve will bounce on the seat which significantly reduces the cooling of the valve which can result in the valve sinking or dishing. As far as I know, the OM61X engines redline is around 4500 ish at only 10/12 PSI of boost which on a stock T3 would generate around 15lbs of EMP. And that is will very little fueling. It sounds like you have increased fueling, boost, EMP, and RPM enough to push the valvetraine beyond its working range.
Valve cooling is all about seat pressure, and in really extreme set ups, seat material. Springs need to matched to suit the cam profile, boost, EMP, and RPM range.
Another thing I have seen is the valve nuts coming loose.
Hence my question. What will you do to your to avoid this? there is little to no room for adjusting spring pressure / valve geometry. I'm going to govern my max RPM for now.
Austincarnut
09-02-2020, 09:45 PM #8(08-31-2020, 10:55 AM)OM616(08-27-2020, 05:54 PM)Austincarnut(08-11-2020, 09:27 AM)OM616I was running no more than 1100*F going up hill with ac on at full boost on a hot day
What was your average sustained and highest EGT while you were thrashing on it?
Valve seat spring pressure has a lot to do with valve cooling. As boost (for intakes) EMP (for exhaust) pressure increases effective seat pressure decreases.
Additionally, if the spring pressure is not enough, the valve will bounce on the seat which significantly reduces the cooling of the valve which can result in the valve sinking or dishing. As far as I know, the OM61X engines redline is around 4500 ish at only 10/12 PSI of boost which on a stock T3 would generate around 15lbs of EMP. And that is will very little fueling. It sounds like you have increased fueling, boost, EMP, and RPM enough to push the valvetraine beyond its working range.
Valve cooling is all about seat pressure, and in really extreme set ups, seat material. Springs need to matched to suit the cam profile, boost, EMP, and RPM range.
Another thing I have seen is the valve nuts coming loose.
Hence my question. What will you do to your to avoid this? there is little to no room for adjusting spring pressure / valve geometry. I'm going to govern my max RPM for now.
09-09-2020, 04:27 PM
#9
(09-02-2020, 09:45 PM)Austincarnut(08-31-2020, 10:55 AM)OM616(08-27-2020, 05:54 PM)Austincarnut I was running no more than 1100*F going up hill with ac on at full boost on a hot day
Valve seat spring pressure has a lot to do with valve cooling. As boost (for intakes) EMP (for exhaust) pressure increases effective seat pressure decreases.
Additionally, if the spring pressure is not enough, the valve will bounce on the seat which significantly reduces the cooling of the valve which can result in the valve sinking or dishing. As far as I know, the OM61X engines redline is around 4500 ish at only 10/12 PSI of boost which on a stock T3 would generate around 15lbs of EMP. And that is will very little fueling. It sounds like you have increased fueling, boost, EMP, and RPM enough to push the valvetraine beyond its working range.
Valve cooling is all about seat pressure, and in really extreme set ups, seat material. Springs need to matched to suit the cam profile, boost, EMP, and RPM range.
Another thing I have seen is the valve nuts coming loose.
Hence my question. What will you do to your to avoid this? there is little to no room for adjusting spring pressure / valve geometry. I'm going to govern my max RPM for now.
I will definitely be using stronger springs to compensate for the 30-40 lbs of boost and corresponding EMP but I do not plan on spinning it up beyond 5K, don't see the need to.
I am going back and forth on having a steel cam made to my specks and make new roller tip rockers, or run the stock cam and make higher ratio rockers. I have advanced the cam as much as i can with the stock piston valve pockets, and I want to go another 7* so I have to cut the pockets deeper when i have the head off.
Out of curiosity, how fast were you spinning it???
(09-02-2020, 09:45 PM)Austincarnut(08-31-2020, 10:55 AM)OM616(08-27-2020, 05:54 PM)Austincarnut I was running no more than 1100*F going up hill with ac on at full boost on a hot day
Valve seat spring pressure has a lot to do with valve cooling. As boost (for intakes) EMP (for exhaust) pressure increases effective seat pressure decreases.
Additionally, if the spring pressure is not enough, the valve will bounce on the seat which significantly reduces the cooling of the valve which can result in the valve sinking or dishing. As far as I know, the OM61X engines redline is around 4500 ish at only 10/12 PSI of boost which on a stock T3 would generate around 15lbs of EMP. And that is will very little fueling. It sounds like you have increased fueling, boost, EMP, and RPM enough to push the valvetraine beyond its working range.
Valve cooling is all about seat pressure, and in really extreme set ups, seat material. Springs need to matched to suit the cam profile, boost, EMP, and RPM range.
Another thing I have seen is the valve nuts coming loose.
Hence my question. What will you do to your to avoid this? there is little to no room for adjusting spring pressure / valve geometry. I'm going to govern my max RPM for now.
I will definitely be using stronger springs to compensate for the 30-40 lbs of boost and corresponding EMP but I do not plan on spinning it up beyond 5K, don't see the need to.
I am going back and forth on having a steel cam made to my specks and make new roller tip rockers, or run the stock cam and make higher ratio rockers. I have advanced the cam as much as i can with the stock piston valve pockets, and I want to go another 7* so I have to cut the pockets deeper when i have the head off.
Out of curiosity, how fast were you spinning it???
09-30-2020, 11:09 PM
#10
There are lots of 3L diesel in the last 10 years with Garrett VNT turbos, but the GTB2260 that they come with are only good for maybe ~300HP. There are a few companies over in Europe that build custom 375-400hp VNT turbos. GTD2872 from darksidedevelopement in the UK. I've emailed them back and forth a bit over the last couple years and they are quite responsive and helpful. There are a few more companies across Europe with similar turbos. I recently saw someone else came out with a GTD2973.
I have been thinking about getting one of those, but living/driving between 5000-11000ft elevation means PR is up from almost 3 to almost 4. This turns that ~400hp turbo into a maybe ~300hp turbo.
What do you plan on using to control the VNT? I'm working with a few other people to build a standalone VNT controller that will hopefully be available in the coming months sometime. I've been playing around with a GTA2056(only easy option back in 2014) on my OM606 for the last few years and after lots of attempts a controlling it with vacuum/boost actuators it never worked well at all. I gave up and that's when we started thinking about electronic controllers. We're also working on getting a bolt on VNT for the 617, but that will likely be good for maybe ~250hp. Great for stock & 7.5mm element 617s, but not gonna cut it for crazy people look for 400hp out of a 3L diesel engine designed 50yrs ago...lol jk.
This post was last modified: 09-30-2020, 11:20 PM by vica153.
How much boost and fuel do you need to put into a 617 at 5000rpm to hit 400hp?
There are lots of 3L diesel in the last 10 years with Garrett VNT turbos, but the GTB2260 that they come with are only good for maybe ~300HP. There are a few companies over in Europe that build custom 375-400hp VNT turbos. GTD2872 from darksidedevelopement in the UK. I've emailed them back and forth a bit over the last couple years and they are quite responsive and helpful. There are a few more companies across Europe with similar turbos. I recently saw someone else came out with a GTD2973.
I have been thinking about getting one of those, but living/driving between 5000-11000ft elevation means PR is up from almost 3 to almost 4. This turns that ~400hp turbo into a maybe ~300hp turbo.
What do you plan on using to control the VNT? I'm working with a few other people to build a standalone VNT controller that will hopefully be available in the coming months sometime. I've been playing around with a GTA2056(only easy option back in 2014) on my OM606 for the last few years and after lots of attempts a controlling it with vacuum/boost actuators it never worked well at all. I gave up and that's when we started thinking about electronic controllers. We're also working on getting a bolt on VNT for the 617, but that will likely be good for maybe ~250hp. Great for stock & 7.5mm element 617s, but not gonna cut it for crazy people look for 400hp out of a 3L diesel engine designed 50yrs ago...lol jk.
10-02-2020, 05:21 PM
#11
(09-30-2020, 11:09 PM)vica153 How much boost and fuel do you need to put into a 617 at 5000rpm to hit 400hp?
There are lots of 3L diesel in the last 10 years with Garrett VNT turbos, but the GTB2260 that they come with are only good for maybe ~300HP. There are a few companies over in Europe that build custom 375-400hp VNT turbos. GTD2872 from darksidedevelopement in the UK. I've emailed them back and forth a bit over the last couple years and they are quite responsive and helpful. There are a few more companies across Europe with similar turbos. I recently saw someone else came out with a GTD2973.
I have been thinking about getting one of those, but living/driving between 5000-11000ft elevation means PR is up from almost 3 to almost 4. This turns that ~400hp turbo into a maybe ~300hp turbo.
What do you plan on using to control the VNT? I'm working with a few other people to build a standalone VNT controller that will hopefully be available in the coming months sometime. I've been playing around with a GTA2056(only easy option back in 2014) on my OM606 for the last few years and after lots of attempts a controlling it with vacuum/boost actuators it never worked well at all. I gave up and that's when we started thinking about electronic controllers. We're also working on getting a bolt on VNT for the 617, but that will likely be good for maybe ~250hp. Great for stock & 7.5mm element 617s, but not gonna cut it for crazy people look for 400hp out of a 3L diesel engine designed 50yrs ago...lol jk.
The issue with the VNT turbos that I have looked at is none of them will produce 40+ lbs of boost at the top end and be any where near with in the efficiency range. The S200 compressor is good for 70 ish PSI at a high volume of air. I can get a S200 with a twin scroll turbine housing, but even with a quick spool valve, I dont think it would make the boost I want soon enough, which is why i like the VNT turbine, as it allows the adjustment of when it starts building boost.
I am looking at the GT25XXV turbine because I want more flow then the GT22 and I don't want a monster turbine. I am looking at having the turbine controls regulate the boost up to around 15 lbs, my goal is to have 5 or 6 lbs literally right off of idle. Then for the max boost at full power, I would use an external waste gate which would bypass what exhaust he turbine could not handle in an effort to keep the EMP within 5 ish lbs of Boost.
I would be mechanically controlling both the VNT vanes and external waste gate.
As for fueling, I will be running a 10mm pump with custom nozzles and I have the high speed governor disabled so I have full fueling all the way. I really do not want to mess with compounds or a blower, I am trying to get something that may be impossible lol.
(09-30-2020, 11:09 PM)vica153 How much boost and fuel do you need to put into a 617 at 5000rpm to hit 400hp?
There are lots of 3L diesel in the last 10 years with Garrett VNT turbos, but the GTB2260 that they come with are only good for maybe ~300HP. There are a few companies over in Europe that build custom 375-400hp VNT turbos. GTD2872 from darksidedevelopement in the UK. I've emailed them back and forth a bit over the last couple years and they are quite responsive and helpful. There are a few more companies across Europe with similar turbos. I recently saw someone else came out with a GTD2973.
I have been thinking about getting one of those, but living/driving between 5000-11000ft elevation means PR is up from almost 3 to almost 4. This turns that ~400hp turbo into a maybe ~300hp turbo.
What do you plan on using to control the VNT? I'm working with a few other people to build a standalone VNT controller that will hopefully be available in the coming months sometime. I've been playing around with a GTA2056(only easy option back in 2014) on my OM606 for the last few years and after lots of attempts a controlling it with vacuum/boost actuators it never worked well at all. I gave up and that's when we started thinking about electronic controllers. We're also working on getting a bolt on VNT for the 617, but that will likely be good for maybe ~250hp. Great for stock & 7.5mm element 617s, but not gonna cut it for crazy people look for 400hp out of a 3L diesel engine designed 50yrs ago...lol jk.
The issue with the VNT turbos that I have looked at is none of them will produce 40+ lbs of boost at the top end and be any where near with in the efficiency range. The S200 compressor is good for 70 ish PSI at a high volume of air. I can get a S200 with a twin scroll turbine housing, but even with a quick spool valve, I dont think it would make the boost I want soon enough, which is why i like the VNT turbine, as it allows the adjustment of when it starts building boost.
I am looking at the GT25XXV turbine because I want more flow then the GT22 and I don't want a monster turbine. I am looking at having the turbine controls regulate the boost up to around 15 lbs, my goal is to have 5 or 6 lbs literally right off of idle. Then for the max boost at full power, I would use an external waste gate which would bypass what exhaust he turbine could not handle in an effort to keep the EMP within 5 ish lbs of Boost.
I would be mechanically controlling both the VNT vanes and external waste gate.
As for fueling, I will be running a 10mm pump with custom nozzles and I have the high speed governor disabled so I have full fueling all the way. I really do not want to mess with compounds or a blower, I am trying to get something that may be impossible lol.
10-02-2020, 08:29 PM
#12
The twin scroll s200 with a quick spool valve is a good idea. I've been planning on the twin scroll EFR 7064 setup which is similar size and thought about fitting a quick spool valve into my manifold. Would be cool, but I haven't figured out a good way to fit it in there. Without a VNT or quick spool, the turbine wheel on the s200 is too big to spool well. Thats why I was looking at the EFR 7064.
5psi right off idle is asking a lot out of a single turbo setup with compressor that can push 40psi at 5000rpm. If by 5psi "literally right off idle" you mean ~1000rpm, then I can tell you that its not going to happen with a 55lb/min compressor. Quick spool, VNT, electric motor spinning it wont matter. The flow is below where the compressor can work. It doesn't matter what you do to the turbine side. A 55lb compressor isn't going to act like a 20lb compressor. Even A GT2056 VNT turbo probably wouldn't hit 5psi that quick.
~1500rpm is just barely on the bottom corner of the compressor map at 1500rpm & 6psi, but its doubtful you would actually be able to hit that with the quick spool valve or VNT turbine housing.
This post was last modified: 10-03-2020, 03:01 PM by vica153.
A small S200 VNT is exactly what I would like as well. DPS makes VNT housing for the S300, but unfortunately not the S200. I've emailed them about it but obviously they market to diesels twice the size. Maybe if enough people ask about an S200 VNT they would make one. With a VNT S200, you might be able to hit 35psi by ~2200rpm and likely bend something with 500+ lb-ft of torque. It wont hit 5psi off idle though.
The twin scroll s200 with a quick spool valve is a good idea. I've been planning on the twin scroll EFR 7064 setup which is similar size and thought about fitting a quick spool valve into my manifold. Would be cool, but I haven't figured out a good way to fit it in there. Without a VNT or quick spool, the turbine wheel on the s200 is too big to spool well. Thats why I was looking at the EFR 7064.
5psi right off idle is asking a lot out of a single turbo setup with compressor that can push 40psi at 5000rpm. If by 5psi "literally right off idle" you mean ~1000rpm, then I can tell you that its not going to happen with a 55lb/min compressor. Quick spool, VNT, electric motor spinning it wont matter. The flow is below where the compressor can work. It doesn't matter what you do to the turbine side. A 55lb compressor isn't going to act like a 20lb compressor. Even A GT2056 VNT turbo probably wouldn't hit 5psi that quick.
~1500rpm is just barely on the bottom corner of the compressor map at 1500rpm & 6psi, but its doubtful you would actually be able to hit that with the quick spool valve or VNT turbine housing.
10-03-2020, 04:08 PM
#13
(10-02-2020, 08:29 PM)vica153 A small S200 VNT is exactly what I would like as well. DPS makes VNT housing for the S300, but unfortunately not the S200. I've emailed them about it but obviously they market to diesels twice the size. Maybe if enough people ask about an S200 VNT they would make one. With a VNT S200, you might be able to hit 35psi by ~2200rpm and likely bend something with 500+ lb-ft of torque. It wont hit 5psi off idle though.
The twin scroll s200 with a quick spool valve is a good idea. I've been planning on the twin scroll EFR 7064 setup which is similar size and thought about fitting a quick spool valve into my manifold. Would be cool, but I haven't figured out a good way to fit it in there. Without a VNT or quick spool, the turbine wheel on the s200 is too big to spool well. Thats why I was looking at the EFR 7064.
5psi right off idle is asking a lot out of a single turbo setup with compressor that can push 40psi at 5000rpm. If by 5psi "literally right off idle" you mean ~1000rpm, then I can tell you that its not going to happen with a 55lb/min compressor. Quick spool, VNT, electric motor spinning it wont matter. The flow is below where the compressor can work. It doesn't matter what you do to the turbine side. A 55lb compressor isn't going to act like a 20lb compressor. Even A GT2056 VNT turbo probably wouldn't hit 5psi that quick.
~1500rpm is just barely on the bottom corner of the compressor map at 1500rpm & 6psi, but its doubtful you would actually be able to hit that with the quick spool valve or VNT turbine housing.
Totally agree that I am trying to do the impossible lol.. I am planning on "bleeding" boost on the bottom end so the compressor flow is up, and then slowly closing the bleed valve as the engine speed increases. Regardless of when I can get it to start building boost or how I have to set it up, I really want a VNT S200 lol..
I twin scroll with a valve just is not as adjustable as i want. All be it, a lot simpler.
(10-02-2020, 08:29 PM)vica153 A small S200 VNT is exactly what I would like as well. DPS makes VNT housing for the S300, but unfortunately not the S200. I've emailed them about it but obviously they market to diesels twice the size. Maybe if enough people ask about an S200 VNT they would make one. With a VNT S200, you might be able to hit 35psi by ~2200rpm and likely bend something with 500+ lb-ft of torque. It wont hit 5psi off idle though.
The twin scroll s200 with a quick spool valve is a good idea. I've been planning on the twin scroll EFR 7064 setup which is similar size and thought about fitting a quick spool valve into my manifold. Would be cool, but I haven't figured out a good way to fit it in there. Without a VNT or quick spool, the turbine wheel on the s200 is too big to spool well. Thats why I was looking at the EFR 7064.
5psi right off idle is asking a lot out of a single turbo setup with compressor that can push 40psi at 5000rpm. If by 5psi "literally right off idle" you mean ~1000rpm, then I can tell you that its not going to happen with a 55lb/min compressor. Quick spool, VNT, electric motor spinning it wont matter. The flow is below where the compressor can work. It doesn't matter what you do to the turbine side. A 55lb compressor isn't going to act like a 20lb compressor. Even A GT2056 VNT turbo probably wouldn't hit 5psi that quick.
~1500rpm is just barely on the bottom corner of the compressor map at 1500rpm & 6psi, but its doubtful you would actually be able to hit that with the quick spool valve or VNT turbine housing.
Totally agree that I am trying to do the impossible lol.. I am planning on "bleeding" boost on the bottom end so the compressor flow is up, and then slowly closing the bleed valve as the engine speed increases. Regardless of when I can get it to start building boost or how I have to set it up, I really want a VNT S200 lol..
I twin scroll with a valve just is not as adjustable as i want. All be it, a lot simpler.
10-04-2020, 12:08 PM
#15
(10-04-2020, 12:25 AM)vica153 Small shot of nitrous?
lol.. I have a 30 lb nitrous bottle just for that! For a track set up, that would be fine, but for a driver, I am concerned about the quality of the solenoids. and then there is the turning on and off of the bottle all the time.
I have run a blower and they suck power and are loud.
I am going to be ordering a S200 core and a GT2556V and see if the GT turbine shaft will work with the S200 compressor wheel. I am betting I will have to have a custom compressor wheel made that fits the GT turbine shaft, but hopefully not.
I am hoping that all I have to do is make a custom compressor bearing plate that mates the GT25 core to the S200 compressor housing. I wont know how compatible the two are until I have them in hand.
(10-04-2020, 12:25 AM)vica153 Small shot of nitrous?
lol.. I have a 30 lb nitrous bottle just for that! For a track set up, that would be fine, but for a driver, I am concerned about the quality of the solenoids. and then there is the turning on and off of the bottle all the time.
I have run a blower and they suck power and are loud.
I am going to be ordering a S200 core and a GT2556V and see if the GT turbine shaft will work with the S200 compressor wheel. I am betting I will have to have a custom compressor wheel made that fits the GT turbine shaft, but hopefully not.
I am hoping that all I have to do is make a custom compressor bearing plate that mates the GT25 core to the S200 compressor housing. I wont know how compatible the two are until I have them in hand.
10-04-2020, 06:28 PM
#17
(10-04-2020, 02:01 PM)vica153 What is that 2556 off of? What are the dimensions of the turbine?
the one I am looking at on ebay is supposedly for a BMW. I like it because the turbine flange bolt pattern should fit in between the T3 manifold bolts.
I have no clue as to the 2556 dimensions yet. need to get one and tear it apart. I have a 2052 that is for parts I could reference, but I would think that the 2556 would be bigger.
(10-04-2020, 02:01 PM)vica153 What is that 2556 off of? What are the dimensions of the turbine?
the one I am looking at on ebay is supposedly for a BMW. I like it because the turbine flange bolt pattern should fit in between the T3 manifold bolts.
I have no clue as to the 2556 dimensions yet. need to get one and tear it apart. I have a 2052 that is for parts I could reference, but I would think that the 2556 would be bigger.
10-04-2020, 08:40 PM
#18
The later version of the GT3782V (Ford 6.0 05-07) has a slightly smaller turbine than earlier versions, but the +72mm turbine and 55-60lb/min compressor are a bit big for only 400hp. It would work, but it would be sacrifcing spool for a top end that you cant actually use. However, considering you can get a brand new genuine Garrett turbo for $750 you're getting a lot of turbo for your money.
This post was last modified: 10-14-2020, 02:58 PM by vica153.
I think you could get away with a 55-60mm turbine and that might be more ideal for you to spool as fast as possible. An s200 with a VNT housing I would prefer 65-70mm turbine wheel with a 0.8-0.9 A/R. Good spool and good flow on the top end.
The later version of the GT3782V (Ford 6.0 05-07) has a slightly smaller turbine than earlier versions, but the +72mm turbine and 55-60lb/min compressor are a bit big for only 400hp. It would work, but it would be sacrifcing spool for a top end that you cant actually use. However, considering you can get a brand new genuine Garrett turbo for $750 you're getting a lot of turbo for your money.
10-11-2020, 09:11 PM
#20
This post was last modified: 10-11-2020, 09:15 PM by 50harleyrider.
50harleyrider
10-11-2020, 09:11 PM #20I have to take exception to the claims that VNT turbos are restrictive. If the turbo is controlled properly, the vanes are designed to not be restrictive, VW found that out in 1998 in the TDI's. I don't know anything about the 617 , but my 606 boosts early and on up with the om648 vnt GT2359v turbo. Of course, above 250 hp would be a problem but there are plenty of VNT turbos for that.
10-11-2020, 11:39 PM
#21
This post was last modified: 10-12-2020, 12:53 AM by vica153.
Control is definitely crucial in order to take advantage of a VNT turbo. The VNT allows them to be much more restrictive than a similarly sized standard turbo. That is the purpose of the vanes after all. Without good control they can end up being too restrictive and/or not hitting boost targets. As far as the Garrett VNT turbos, there are tons of options if you're looking for 150-300hp and there are a few older generation 450+hp options. I have yet to find anything to fit the 300-450hp range.
12-06-2020, 02:11 PM
#22
I am going to have to modify the S200 turbine wheel to fit in the GT25V nozzle ring, and I will open up the turbine housing as much as I can to allow for a larger turbine Exducer diameter.
After looking at compressor maps and the actual specks of both the S200 and GT2556V turbos, I have decided that going with a 50mm S200 and putting the GT25V turbine housing on it would make a better turbo then putting the s200 compressor on the GT25V frame.
I am going to have to modify the S200 turbine wheel to fit in the GT25V nozzle ring, and I will open up the turbine housing as much as I can to allow for a larger turbine Exducer diameter.
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