OM606.962 hard starting
OM606.962 hard starting
50harleyrider
12-09-2021, 04:32 PM #1Can anyone advise me about fueling and hard starts? it seems the colder temperatures are causing my crank times to go up. I have to crank 3-4 times up to 20 seconds each time before it starts. My engine is in a 97 f150 and I kept the Ford frame rail gas filter intact. Should I gut or remove it? I fear being designed for gas, maybe it's not diesel friendly. All my other issues have been addressed ie all glow plugs functional, no bubbles in lines, fresh winter fuel,and starts fine above 45F. I can increase glow time if that might help also. I've got it set for 6 seconds at 30F FYI. Thanks
50harleyrider
12-10-2021, 10:22 AM #3thanks barrote. i'll try incteasing glow 10 seconds at a time. 35 seconds is much
i'm not sure on the numbers but the 606 box is dependant on coolant temp. And it takes quite a long time to glow, in any case never less than 20sec , and increases with low temps.
Other thing is that , the box is a really feat of analogic electronics, not only a solenoid with a timer...
I really recomend u to get one w210's use same box... and sprinters too.
Box is stand alone electronics.
FD,
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Hum,
i'm not sure on the numbers but the 606 box is dependant on coolant temp. And it takes quite a long time to glow, in any case never less than 20sec , and increases with low temps.
Other thing is that , the box is a really feat of analogic electronics, not only a solenoid with a timer...
I really recomend u to get one w210's use same box... and sprinters too.
Box is stand alone electronics.
FD,
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![[Image: CTg4EG5.png]](https://i.imgur.com/CTg4EG5.png)
50harleyrider
12-14-2021, 07:38 AM #6Those look like the default settings you put in the DSL1, Baldur. I did go ahead and increase all the pre start times from 0C and lower by 100% and still no start. I have 6 healthy glow plugs in it and a new filter. I may have a restriction in the fuel delivery system. I'm still using the OE f150 lift pump and return line and am checking the fuel supply pressure at the engine next. I have been running this unregulated setup for about 2 years now, so might have burned up the lift pump from constant running. Would it be best for me to eliminate the f150 lift pump altogether since the w210 never had one and rely on the pump inside the IP? I don't like relying on the scavenger pump because of keeping it primed and air out.
:http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...p?tid=8079
50harleyrider
12-14-2021, 08:06 AM #7I may have predicted my problem way back on post 19 when I had this same problem. I probably should have regulated the lift pump then :
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/show...p?tid=8079
Oh snap, Yeah you would definetley want to regulate that. I am running a DRX17SAR from Diesel RX. I don't have a gauge on it, but in the instructions the lowest setting is 15PSI which is good for the injection pump. My stock fuel system on my truck is returnless, so I made my old evap line the return line and did some things to get rid of the canister. Works like a charm.
baldur If you run the F150 pump at full power you absolutely must use a return regulator that keeps the pressure into the injection pump constant. The stock return banjo with the check valve in it does not flow enough.
Thanks Baldur,
Should I eliminate the banjo return when I ad a return regulator?
50harleyrider
12-16-2021, 05:53 PM #10baldur If you run the F150 pump at full power you absolutely must use a return regulator that keeps the pressure into the injection pump constant. The stock return banjo with the check valve in it does not flow enough.
Thanks Baldur,
Should I eliminate the banjo return when I ad a return regulator?
(12-16-2021, 05:53 PM)50harleyriderbaldur If you run the F150 pump at full power you absolutely must use a return regulator that keeps the pressure into the injection pump constant. The stock return banjo with the check valve in it does not flow enough.
Thanks Baldur,
Should I eliminate the banjo return when I ad a return regulator?
Depends on how you do it. I would recommend just putting the regulator ahead of the filter and keeping the existing return system as is, just tee the regular into the supply line and the return line.
Baldur Gislason
(12-16-2021, 05:53 PM)50harleyriderbaldur If you run the F150 pump at full power you absolutely must use a return regulator that keeps the pressure into the injection pump constant. The stock return banjo with the check valve in it does not flow enough.
Thanks Baldur,
Should I eliminate the banjo return when I ad a return regulator?
Depends on how you do it. I would recommend just putting the regulator ahead of the filter and keeping the existing return system as is, just tee the regular into the supply line and the return line.
Baldur Gislason
50harleyrider
12-17-2021, 12:01 PM #12Baldur can you provide a sketch of that? I'm a bit confused about teeing the regulator into the supply line AND return line. Did you mean the supply to the regulator and return to the filter? My OE lift pump is functioning fine so I didn't destroy it running unregulated constant on. Should I electronically regulate it so it will operate with a duty cycle less than 100%? i'm also afraid I may have destroyed the banjo check valve running this way. Anyone know the part number for it on the 606.962?
This fuel circuit on the 606 is quite a odd thing...
The valve on the banjo has much more to do with preventing line bleeding than regulation... as if one looks carefully to the lift pump soon find out it is kind of self regulated.
The only thing required when using a electrical lift , is to avoid pipe bursting. In case u use high flow unit like 044 a fuel pressure regulator is required, or if u want to complicate a litle a pulse wave regulador dependent on press.
As most elec pumps are self regulated u dont need to worry as the 606 pump has nothing that can be harmed if u run 5 bar in the gallery...
Hope it helps
Regards
FD,
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Hy ,
This fuel circuit on the 606 is quite a odd thing...
The valve on the banjo has much more to do with preventing line bleeding than regulation... as if one looks carefully to the lift pump soon find out it is kind of self regulated.
The only thing required when using a electrical lift , is to avoid pipe bursting. In case u use high flow unit like 044 a fuel pressure regulator is required, or if u want to complicate a litle a pulse wave regulador dependent on press.
As most elec pumps are self regulated u dont need to worry as the 606 pump has nothing that can be harmed if u run 5 bar in the gallery...
Hope it helps
Regards
FD,
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barrote Hy ,
This fuel circuit on the 606 is quite a odd thing...
The valve on the banjo has much more to do with preventing line bleeding than regulation... as if one looks carefully to the lift pump soon find out it is kind of self regulated.
The only thing required when using a electrical lift , is to avoid pipe bursting. In case u use high flow unit like 044 a fuel pressure regulator is required, or if u want to complicate a litle a pulse wave regulador dependent on press.
As most elec pumps are self regulated u dont need to worry as the 606 pump has nothing that can be harmed if u run 5 bar in the gallery...
Hope it helps
Regards
thanks barrette. Do all your comments take into account the original 1997 f150 lift pump? It is controlled by a driver mounted on the frame rail and the gas engine had a regulator on the fuel rail on the engine. I have eliminated the regulator when going diesel as well as the driver. my research indicates a 5-70% duty cycle is what the pump should run. None of the other posts have agreed 5 bar pressure would not cause problem so I am still confused.
50harleyrider
12-18-2021, 11:12 AM #14barrote Hy ,
This fuel circuit on the 606 is quite a odd thing...
The valve on the banjo has much more to do with preventing line bleeding than regulation... as if one looks carefully to the lift pump soon find out it is kind of self regulated.
The only thing required when using a electrical lift , is to avoid pipe bursting. In case u use high flow unit like 044 a fuel pressure regulator is required, or if u want to complicate a litle a pulse wave regulador dependent on press.
As most elec pumps are self regulated u dont need to worry as the 606 pump has nothing that can be harmed if u run 5 bar in the gallery...
Hope it helps
Regards
thanks barrette. Do all your comments take into account the original 1997 f150 lift pump? It is controlled by a driver mounted on the frame rail and the gas engine had a regulator on the fuel rail on the engine. I have eliminated the regulator when going diesel as well as the driver. my research indicates a 5-70% duty cycle is what the pump should run. None of the other posts have agreed 5 bar pressure would not cause problem so I am still confused.
(12-18-2021, 11:12 AM)50harleyrider Baldur can you provide a sketch of that? I'm a bit confused about teeing the regulator into the supply line AND return line. Did you mean the supply to the regulator and return to the filter? My OE lift pump is functioning fine so I didn't destroy it running unregulated constant on. Should I electronically regulate it so it will operate with a duty cycle less than 100%? i'm also afraid I may have destroyed the banjo check valve running this way. Anyone know the part number for it on the 606.962?
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thanks barrette. Do all your comments take into account the original 1997 f150 lift pump? It is controlled by a driver mounted on the frame rail and the gas engine had a regulator on the fuel rail on the engine. I have eliminated the regulator when going diesel as well as the driver. my research indicates a 5-70% duty cycle is what the pump should run. None of the other posts have agreed 5 bar pressure would not cause problem so I am still confused.
The way I regulated the system on my mechanical pump was a regular banjo on pump return with a quality aftermarket bypass regulator right after the pump but entering the return before the injector return merges with the main return line. I hold 1.5 bar constant running a small Bosch fuel pump, no pressure issues. If you put the regulator after the injector returns you will have a bad time, I learned that quickly on my first attempt. The bypass type regulators are for continuous duty pumps and hold the set pressure while continuously dumping excess flow back in the tank. If you have a pump rated for continuous duty and not oversized for the application you don't have to reduce the duty cycle, if that is possible for the pump motor design.
I've been researching switching to a brushless pump, like a fuellab prodigy. If you look at their literature they have some diagrams showing the different regulator applications, here is one of their regulators with manual in "instructions" on that page, which shows the concept: https://www.jegs.com/i/Fuelab/083/51506-1-S-T/10002/-1. The bosch gas pumps I used (original to some mercedes gas cars) have brushes which do not live as long in diesel, and I have had trouble with air and fuel leakage due to apparent rubber incompatibility which is why I'm switching to something speced for diesel.
(12-18-2021, 11:12 AM)50harleyrider Baldur can you provide a sketch of that? I'm a bit confused about teeing the regulator into the supply line AND return line. Did you mean the supply to the regulator and return to the filter? My OE lift pump is functioning fine so I didn't destroy it running unregulated constant on. Should I electronically regulate it so it will operate with a duty cycle less than 100%? i'm also afraid I may have destroyed the banjo check valve running this way. Anyone know the part number for it on the 606.962?
------
thanks barrette. Do all your comments take into account the original 1997 f150 lift pump? It is controlled by a driver mounted on the frame rail and the gas engine had a regulator on the fuel rail on the engine. I have eliminated the regulator when going diesel as well as the driver. my research indicates a 5-70% duty cycle is what the pump should run. None of the other posts have agreed 5 bar pressure would not cause problem so I am still confused.
The way I regulated the system on my mechanical pump was a regular banjo on pump return with a quality aftermarket bypass regulator right after the pump but entering the return before the injector return merges with the main return line. I hold 1.5 bar constant running a small Bosch fuel pump, no pressure issues. If you put the regulator after the injector returns you will have a bad time, I learned that quickly on my first attempt. The bypass type regulators are for continuous duty pumps and hold the set pressure while continuously dumping excess flow back in the tank. If you have a pump rated for continuous duty and not oversized for the application you don't have to reduce the duty cycle, if that is possible for the pump motor design.
I've been researching switching to a brushless pump, like a fuellab prodigy. If you look at their literature they have some diagrams showing the different regulator applications, here is one of their regulators with manual in "instructions" on that page, which shows the concept: https://www.jegs.com/i/Fuelab/083/51506-1-S-T/10002/-1. The bosch gas pumps I used (original to some mercedes gas cars) have brushes which do not live as long in diesel, and I have had trouble with air and fuel leakage due to apparent rubber incompatibility which is why I'm switching to something speced for diesel.
(12-17-2021, 12:01 PM)50harleyrider Baldur can you provide a sketch of that? I'm a bit confused about teeing the regulator into the supply line AND return line. Did you mean the supply to the regulator and return to the filter? My OE lift pump is functioning fine so I didn't destroy it running unregulated constant on. Should I electronically regulate it so it will operate with a duty cycle less than 100%? i'm also afraid I may have destroyed the banjo check valve running this way. Anyone know the part number for it on the 606.962?
The regulator has an inlet and and return port. Tee the inlet port into the pressure line from the pump, tee the return port into the return line. Some regulators have two inlet ports so that the regulator itself can be a tee, you can just route the supply line to the engine through it, and then tee into the return line as the engine has return lines too.
Baldur Gislason
(12-17-2021, 12:01 PM)50harleyrider Baldur can you provide a sketch of that? I'm a bit confused about teeing the regulator into the supply line AND return line. Did you mean the supply to the regulator and return to the filter? My OE lift pump is functioning fine so I didn't destroy it running unregulated constant on. Should I electronically regulate it so it will operate with a duty cycle less than 100%? i'm also afraid I may have destroyed the banjo check valve running this way. Anyone know the part number for it on the 606.962?
The regulator has an inlet and and return port. Tee the inlet port into the pressure line from the pump, tee the return port into the return line. Some regulators have two inlet ports so that the regulator itself can be a tee, you can just route the supply line to the engine through it, and then tee into the return line as the engine has return lines too.
Baldur Gislason
50harleyrider
12-19-2021, 05:29 PM #17I must really be stupid about fuel regulation. Using tees rather than just adding the regulator to the supply line really confuses me. Maybe the pressure balance is what I don't understand. I'm thinking a dead-head regulator but I guess that won't work on a continuous flowing system. I need a bypass type regulator. Right? Can a VE engine benefit from more fuel pressure with more boost or is the VE design prohibitive?
M pumps don't even need lift pump, in most cases. If u decide to use the original lift pump just need to plug a line to it.
VE systems are quite diff , as the VE has one low pressure pump inside , in most cases able to suck fuel from far away.
In VE's the output of this LP pump is used as tranfer case pressure wich power some gadgets in the pump , and the most important is dynamic advance. Altering the inlet pressure will alter the case pressure and u know the result.
Baldur was describing the use of a FPR and usually that thing is a check valve.
Once conected the pressure line , one regulated port goes for engine , another goes for tank, the u can tee the pump and injector return.
Watch pressures to avoid feeding by return.
Regards
FD,
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Come on, its not so complicated.
M pumps don't even need lift pump, in most cases. If u decide to use the original lift pump just need to plug a line to it.
VE systems are quite diff , as the VE has one low pressure pump inside , in most cases able to suck fuel from far away.
In VE's the output of this LP pump is used as tranfer case pressure wich power some gadgets in the pump , and the most important is dynamic advance. Altering the inlet pressure will alter the case pressure and u know the result.
Baldur was describing the use of a FPR and usually that thing is a check valve.
Once conected the pressure line , one regulated port goes for engine , another goes for tank, the u can tee the pump and injector return.
Watch pressures to avoid feeding by return.
Regards
FD,
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50harleyrider
12-20-2021, 08:07 AM #19For the record, temperature here is 29F this morning and truck would not start even with extended glow times above 30 seconds. This problem only occurs in cold. Maybe I should look elsewhere for my issue and start using the block heater which indeed MB provided on all these 606 engines. Also maybe consider some form of heated supply line like my oe B5.5 vw TDI has. Does this make sense or is my outside temperature too high to consider these things? I know it gets colder in Germany so I don't want to do these items unless I have to. My fuel is fresh and from a high volume truck stop.
(12-20-2021, 08:07 AM)50harleyrider For the record, temperature here is 29F this morning and truck would not start even with extended glow times above 30 seconds. This problem only occurs in cold. Maybe I should look elsewhere for my issue and start using the block heater which indeed MB provided on all these 606 engines. Also maybe consider some form of heated supply line like my oe B5.5 vw TDI has. Does this make sense or is my outside temperature too high to consider these things? I know it gets colder in Germany so I don't want to do these items unless I have to. My fuel is fresh and from a high volume truck stop.
Can you confirm the glow plugs are on that entire 30 seconds? (do you have them wired to an LED maybe?). Is there white smoke coming from the exhaust while you're cranking to indicate its getting fuel?
I don't think 29F is anywhere close enough to require heated fuel supplies or the block heater. Those typically help, but at 29F it should have no issue starting without them.
Check your IP rack position while cranking, make sure there isn't something going on related to low voltage at cranking adjusting the position.
I did a very similar swap to yours. I removed the inline EFI fuel pump in my truck and replaced it with a Carter p4070 inline fuel pump (~5psi). Not to say the EFI ford pump with a regulator wouldn't work, but there's a chance the efi pump meant for gas isn't liking cold diesel.
likely unrelated, but some additional questions unrelated to fuel supply
Have you confirmed your IP timing?
Do you know the status of the check valves in the delivery valves? my truck was running really retarded timing at low engine speeds due to high leak down in the valves. It would still start, but would always have a haze of smoke at idle, especially bad when not warmed up. Replacing the delivery valve checks from another pump fixed this.
X Double Dot
12-20-2021, 09:32 AM #20(12-20-2021, 08:07 AM)50harleyrider For the record, temperature here is 29F this morning and truck would not start even with extended glow times above 30 seconds. This problem only occurs in cold. Maybe I should look elsewhere for my issue and start using the block heater which indeed MB provided on all these 606 engines. Also maybe consider some form of heated supply line like my oe B5.5 vw TDI has. Does this make sense or is my outside temperature too high to consider these things? I know it gets colder in Germany so I don't want to do these items unless I have to. My fuel is fresh and from a high volume truck stop.
Can you confirm the glow plugs are on that entire 30 seconds? (do you have them wired to an LED maybe?). Is there white smoke coming from the exhaust while you're cranking to indicate its getting fuel?
I don't think 29F is anywhere close enough to require heated fuel supplies or the block heater. Those typically help, but at 29F it should have no issue starting without them.
Check your IP rack position while cranking, make sure there isn't something going on related to low voltage at cranking adjusting the position.
I did a very similar swap to yours. I removed the inline EFI fuel pump in my truck and replaced it with a Carter p4070 inline fuel pump (~5psi). Not to say the EFI ford pump with a regulator wouldn't work, but there's a chance the efi pump meant for gas isn't liking cold diesel.
likely unrelated, but some additional questions unrelated to fuel supply
Have you confirmed your IP timing?
Do you know the status of the check valves in the delivery valves? my truck was running really retarded timing at low engine speeds due to high leak down in the valves. It would still start, but would always have a haze of smoke at idle, especially bad when not warmed up. Replacing the delivery valve checks from another pump fixed this.
50harleyrider
12-20-2021, 10:27 PM #21I can sure check those suggestions out. I do notice the voltage indicated on the DSL1 drops a bit below 12v even with a confirmed test at the battery showing 12.5. I shouldn't be losing .5 volt + through the wiring and relay. I am using the oe GP relay controlled by the DSL1 with a GP light on the dash. I haven't noticed any white smoke while cranking or idling warm or cold. What should I look for as far as cranking rack position? I will check it on a cold morning and again in the warmer part of the day. I did remove the supply line from the downstream side of the inline gasser filter and it flowed plenty on the cold day. so I don't see any fuel supply issues. i'm definitely going to regulate the fuel supply to the IP. I think Baldur is on to something about the banjo return not having the capacity to flow 50+ psi unregulated. That most likely is causing IP problems. I plan to replace the inline gasser filter with a quality regulator delivering 15 psi to the IP and return via a tee. That should solve the overpressure issue and hopefully fix my problem.
TE27Levin Oh snap, Yeah you would definetley want to regulate that. I am running a DRX17SAR from Diesel RX. I don't have a gauge on it, but in the instructions the lowest setting is 15PSI which is good for the injection pump. My stock fuel system on my truck is returnless, so I made my old evap line the return line and did some things to get rid of the canister. Works like a charm.
Were the big 3/4 female ports on that regulator NPT or straight threads requiring ORB-8 O-rings and special fittings? We sure don't need more than 3/8 lines.
50harleyrider
12-22-2021, 04:41 PM #22TE27Levin Oh snap, Yeah you would definetley want to regulate that. I am running a DRX17SAR from Diesel RX. I don't have a gauge on it, but in the instructions the lowest setting is 15PSI which is good for the injection pump. My stock fuel system on my truck is returnless, so I made my old evap line the return line and did some things to get rid of the canister. Works like a charm.
Were the big 3/4 female ports on that regulator NPT or straight threads requiring ORB-8 O-rings and special fittings? We sure don't need more than 3/8 lines.
I have a 1997 F150 outside for reference for other things if you have questions. it is gas with a 4.6
They were straight threads with an O ring. The instructions are available online and it give you the spec. My return line from my IP teed into the return on the regulator. Since you have an older F150 you have the convenience of a return line too. I used amazon adapters to hook up into my stock GM fuel line which is a 3/8s quick connect. The evap uses a similar connector but in 5/16. My sock on my stock fuel pump remains, I made easy access by cutting a hole in the floor underneath the driver side rear passenger seat in order to remove the sending unit if it gets clogged up.
I have a 1997 F150 outside for reference for other things if you have questions. it is gas with a 4.6
rail filter, put a fresh 1000 cca battery in, and the problem went away. My guess is the oe gasser filter simply didn't pass diesel through sufficiently in cold weather. Thanks for all the help.
50harleyrider
01-20-2022, 09:18 AM #24an update to my hard starting issue: I bypassed the Ford gasser frame
rail filter, put a fresh 1000 cca battery in, and the problem went away. My guess is the oe gasser filter simply didn't pass diesel through sufficiently in cold weather. Thanks for all the help.
50harleyrider
01-24-2022, 01:44 PM #25Can anyone provide part numbers of the rack control seal on our Bosch IP? Mine is dripping diesel somewhere around it.
solenoid is black so I wonder if it is plastic?
50harleyrider
01-26-2022, 11:15 AM #27I have a rapid drip coming from the fuel/shutoff/solenoid. Are those prone to break or should I start by removing and inspecting it and replacing the o-ring?
solenoid is black so I wonder if it is plastic?
(01-26-2022, 11:15 AM)50harleyrider I have a rapid drip coming from the fuel/shutoff/solenoid. Are those prone to break or should I start by removing and inspecting it and replacing the o-ring?
solenoid is black so I wonder if it is plastic?
It is plastic, they start to leak all the time and so do the fittings that connect to them.
Baldur Gislason
(01-26-2022, 11:15 AM)50harleyrider I have a rapid drip coming from the fuel/shutoff/solenoid. Are those prone to break or should I start by removing and inspecting it and replacing the o-ring?
solenoid is black so I wonder if it is plastic?
It is plastic, they start to leak all the time and so do the fittings that connect to them.
Baldur Gislason
Wich was build with repair in mind. It need some ingenuity but u can repair it.
Look and u can see a round face just parallel to the pump inlet , its a 25mm round tap, bordered with 2 small holes 2mm . this tap can be removed as it is just force pressed in, often it can be removed by holding the cover throug the holes with a plyers. around it is a oring thats where they often leak. REplace by a vuiton one and it becomes for life.
Or use a flat screw driver to get it out ... or other ingenious means
Good luck
FD,
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Hy, orings leak... but often the leak is on the solenoid.
Wich was build with repair in mind. It need some ingenuity but u can repair it.
Look and u can see a round face just parallel to the pump inlet , its a 25mm round tap, bordered with 2 small holes 2mm . this tap can be removed as it is just force pressed in, often it can be removed by holding the cover throug the holes with a plyers. around it is a oring thats where they often leak. REplace by a vuiton one and it becomes for life.
Or use a flat screw driver to get it out ... or other ingenious means
Good luck
FD,
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Baldur Gislason
The best thing to do is just remove the solenoid. Since you are in the USA I suggest getting a -6 AN fitting from Josh Sadler in California https://yoshifab.com/store/om606-edc-pump-fitting.html but I also carry something in my shop that fits, just with international shipping it'll be slower and more expensive https://controls.is/shop/edcinletflange
Baldur Gislason
50harleyrider
01-29-2022, 12:43 PM #31The fuel solenoid oring was the problem. Fresh new viton oring solved the drip and the hard starts because where there's a drip, there's air ingress.
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