OM606 for boat use, turbo choice and keeping temps low
OM606 for boat use, turbo choice and keeping temps low
The goal is that the engine can produce and withstand constant ~300hp so the turbo choice plays a big factor when it comes to keeping temperatures low enough.
Along with good heat exchanger and oil cooler, large water intercooler would also be fitted.
If necessary I could ask someone to fabricate a custom raw water cooled exhaust manifold, but I prefer not as it would be pretty expensive. Also the fact that to my understand if I cool the exhaust too much, it would have a slight negative impact on turbo spooling as the exhaust could get too cold?
Now to keep temps from climbing too high and keep the engine from blowing up when running half an hour at WOT the key factor to prevent those from happening would be to keep boost pressure low.
Holset HX35 probably needs high boost pressure to achieve +300hp, right? HX40 might do it but the spool time might be bad and it would take long time to get the boat on plane.
What do you guys think?
Injection time is good to keep short as possible since longer injection = higher temps.
I am considering getting the pump done at dieselmeken and getting the big 8mm, however I noticed their website says "we recommend 7,5mm for regular setups in cars, boats etc. 8mm is more of a race high performance element"
Is this true? How big the temperature difference would be between 7,5mm and 8mm? Would I be better off with the 7,5mm and 8mm is just overkill?
Hi guys, I am trying to figure out which turbo would be best suited for OM606 that would power 1500kg daycruiser type boat.
The goal is that the engine can produce and withstand constant ~300hp so the turbo choice plays a big factor when it comes to keeping temperatures low enough.
Along with good heat exchanger and oil cooler, large water intercooler would also be fitted.
If necessary I could ask someone to fabricate a custom raw water cooled exhaust manifold, but I prefer not as it would be pretty expensive. Also the fact that to my understand if I cool the exhaust too much, it would have a slight negative impact on turbo spooling as the exhaust could get too cold?
Now to keep temps from climbing too high and keep the engine from blowing up when running half an hour at WOT the key factor to prevent those from happening would be to keep boost pressure low.
Holset HX35 probably needs high boost pressure to achieve +300hp, right? HX40 might do it but the spool time might be bad and it would take long time to get the boat on plane.
What do you guys think?
Injection time is good to keep short as possible since longer injection = higher temps.
I am considering getting the pump done at dieselmeken and getting the big 8mm, however I noticed their website says "we recommend 7,5mm for regular setups in cars, boats etc. 8mm is more of a race high performance element"
Is this true? How big the temperature difference would be between 7,5mm and 8mm? Would I be better off with the 7,5mm and 8mm is just overkill?
I know absolutely nothing about mercedes diesels. That's why i'm here to learn.But i've had interest in diesels in general for a long time and if it would be any use my gut reaction would be to use one of the turbos from a Cummins 6bt due to being commonly available, tough cast iron, designed for towing ie putting out those powers constantly and with airflows in that HP range, HX35 is one of them. The VGT ones flow even more air at the top end and spool better on the bottom better in every way except the long term reliability of the moving variable geometry part potentially but i'd think constant 300hp from an OM606 might make internals more of a reliability issue than turbo. (diesels putting out 1hp per cubic inch or more have shorter lifespans about like a gas engine, an OM606 is 180 cubic inches so i'd think the turbo would outlast the engine at 1.66hp/cid sustained.
I'll be curious to follow up and watch this build if you make it and to hear how it works, i'm very curious how an OM would handle higher constant loads like this in the real world because i'd love to put one in a fullsize pickup for towing moderate loads.
PS: For cooling exhaust, I have an opinion and it might be unpopular, but cool exhaust means less heat more density. The same mass flows thru the turbo but how efficiently it pushes the wheel varies. The STS turbo rear mount turbosystems for cars asked this question about exhaust cooling too much before the turbo and they just needed different housing geometry to spool well. Thus a VGT turbo could work even better if that ended up being a problem.
futureswap
11-10-2022, 03:49 AM #2Hi. I know absolutely nothing about mercedes diesels. That's why i'm here to learn.
But i've had interest in diesels in general for a long time and if it would be any use my gut reaction would be to use one of the turbos from a Cummins 6bt due to being commonly available, tough cast iron, designed for towing ie putting out those powers constantly and with airflows in that HP range, HX35 is one of them. The VGT ones flow even more air at the top end and spool better on the bottom better in every way except the long term reliability of the moving variable geometry part potentially but i'd think constant 300hp from an OM606 might make internals more of a reliability issue than turbo. (diesels putting out 1hp per cubic inch or more have shorter lifespans about like a gas engine, an OM606 is 180 cubic inches so i'd think the turbo would outlast the engine at 1.66hp/cid sustained.
I'll be curious to follow up and watch this build if you make it and to hear how it works, i'm very curious how an OM would handle higher constant loads like this in the real world because i'd love to put one in a fullsize pickup for towing moderate loads.
PS: For cooling exhaust, I have an opinion and it might be unpopular, but cool exhaust means less heat more density. The same mass flows thru the turbo but how efficiently it pushes the wheel varies. The STS turbo rear mount turbosystems for cars asked this question about exhaust cooling too much before the turbo and they just needed different housing geometry to spool well. Thus a VGT turbo could work even better if that ended up being a problem.
(11-09-2022, 04:22 PM)oho Hi guys, I am trying to figure out which turbo would be best suited for OM606 that would power 1500kg daycruiser type boat.
The goal is that the engine can produce and withstand constant ~300hp so the turbo choice plays a big factor when it comes to keeping temperatures low enough.
Along with good heat exchanger and oil cooler, large water intercooler would also be fitted.
If necessary I could ask someone to fabricate a custom raw water cooled exhaust manifold, but I prefer not as it would be pretty expensive. Also the fact that to my understand if I cool the exhaust too much, it would have a slight negative impact on turbo spooling as the exhaust could get too cold?
Now to keep temps from climbing too high and keep the engine from blowing up when running half an hour at WOT the key factor to prevent those from happening would be to keep boost pressure low.
Holset HX35 probably needs high boost pressure to achieve +300hp, right? HX40 might do it but the spool time might be bad and it would take long time to get the boat on plane.
What do you guys think?
Injection time is good to keep short as possible since longer injection = higher temps.
I am considering getting the pump done at dieselmeken and getting the big 8mm, however I noticed their website says "we recommend 7,5mm for regular setups in cars, boats etc. 8mm is more of a race high performance element"
Is this true? How big the temperature difference would be between 7,5mm and 8mm? Would I be better off with the 7,5mm and 8mm is just overkill?
For longevity I think picking the rpm you want WOT will be the key for helping to size the turbo. I'd expect you'd want the max rpm somewhere around 4-4500 for that horsepower target, size your prop and boat outdrive accordingly. 4000 rpm should keep the rpm high enough to get the airflow you need without excessive boost requirements as well as keeps it below the OE redline. Size the turbo so that this WOT point is healthily in the center of turbo efficiency map.
I recommend messing around on the "Borg Warner Matchbot" calculator to get some numbers. Its a good way to understand how many variables are at play and how each one effects the outcome.
you'll need about 34-35 lb/min of air if you want no excessive smoke at 300hp. If you chose 4000rpm for example, I think you'd need about 21psi to get that flow. that puts you somewhere in the range of a 65mm compressor exducer, which is a lot smaller than an HX35. BenzeForce has some HE250's which use a 70mm exducer. You'd need to find the compressor maps on those but it might be about the right size for what you'd be looking for.
X Double Dot
11-10-2022, 09:27 AM #3(11-09-2022, 04:22 PM)oho Hi guys, I am trying to figure out which turbo would be best suited for OM606 that would power 1500kg daycruiser type boat.
The goal is that the engine can produce and withstand constant ~300hp so the turbo choice plays a big factor when it comes to keeping temperatures low enough.
Along with good heat exchanger and oil cooler, large water intercooler would also be fitted.
If necessary I could ask someone to fabricate a custom raw water cooled exhaust manifold, but I prefer not as it would be pretty expensive. Also the fact that to my understand if I cool the exhaust too much, it would have a slight negative impact on turbo spooling as the exhaust could get too cold?
Now to keep temps from climbing too high and keep the engine from blowing up when running half an hour at WOT the key factor to prevent those from happening would be to keep boost pressure low.
Holset HX35 probably needs high boost pressure to achieve +300hp, right? HX40 might do it but the spool time might be bad and it would take long time to get the boat on plane.
What do you guys think?
Injection time is good to keep short as possible since longer injection = higher temps.
I am considering getting the pump done at dieselmeken and getting the big 8mm, however I noticed their website says "we recommend 7,5mm for regular setups in cars, boats etc. 8mm is more of a race high performance element"
Is this true? How big the temperature difference would be between 7,5mm and 8mm? Would I be better off with the 7,5mm and 8mm is just overkill?
For longevity I think picking the rpm you want WOT will be the key for helping to size the turbo. I'd expect you'd want the max rpm somewhere around 4-4500 for that horsepower target, size your prop and boat outdrive accordingly. 4000 rpm should keep the rpm high enough to get the airflow you need without excessive boost requirements as well as keeps it below the OE redline. Size the turbo so that this WOT point is healthily in the center of turbo efficiency map.
I recommend messing around on the "Borg Warner Matchbot" calculator to get some numbers. Its a good way to understand how many variables are at play and how each one effects the outcome.
you'll need about 34-35 lb/min of air if you want no excessive smoke at 300hp. If you chose 4000rpm for example, I think you'd need about 21psi to get that flow. that puts you somewhere in the range of a 65mm compressor exducer, which is a lot smaller than an HX35. BenzeForce has some HE250's which use a 70mm exducer. You'd need to find the compressor maps on those but it might be about the right size for what you'd be looking for.
One should think that the 606 was engenired to last all day @ 180hp in they're class E cars... WOT for 24h.
I'm pretty sure it handles the 300hp for 30min, nevertheless some factors besides temp shall be acounted for.
As someone sugested a speed of 4k to 4.5 k might be a litle too high , best peak tq in 606's is between 3.5 to 4.5 from what ihave seen in dyno maps.
I would take a look at best MAP being 1.5 barmax 1.7 anything above it will blow a lot of crankcase pressure.
Since is a boat lag is not a problem and u can search a 1/1 ratio for exaust press, that will help with EGT.
Colant temps shall not be a problem for a boat (85°C) engine oil temp shall be kept to 120°C.
Just try out and post... the only way to learn ... or calculate as others sugested.
The 7.5 pump is enough for 300hp, more than enough.
Regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
Tricky question.... 300hp for 30min , out of a 606?
One should think that the 606 was engenired to last all day @ 180hp in they're class E cars... WOT for 24h.
I'm pretty sure it handles the 300hp for 30min, nevertheless some factors besides temp shall be acounted for.
As someone sugested a speed of 4k to 4.5 k might be a litle too high , best peak tq in 606's is between 3.5 to 4.5 from what ihave seen in dyno maps.
I would take a look at best MAP being 1.5 barmax 1.7 anything above it will blow a lot of crankcase pressure.
Since is a boat lag is not a problem and u can search a 1/1 ratio for exaust press, that will help with EGT.
Colant temps shall not be a problem for a boat (85°C) engine oil temp shall be kept to 120°C.
Just try out and post... the only way to learn ... or calculate as others sugested.
The 7.5 pump is enough for 300hp, more than enough.
Regards
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
(11-13-2022, 01:00 PM)barrote Tricky question.... 300hp for 30min , out of a 606?
One should think that the 606 was engenired to last all day @ 180hp in they're class E cars... WOT for 24h.
I'm pretty sure it handles the 300hp for 30min,
I'm pretty sure it would last 30 minutes, my comment was more whether or not it lasts 25,000 hours like a marine diesel only putting out 1/2hp per cubic inch like a 12v-71 in a lobster boat.
How many 30 minute racing trips do you need to get between rebuilds?I remember from past reading wear at 1hp per cubic inch tends to reduce the life of a marine diesel to about that of a marine gas engine like 2000 hours. Yet many 'recreational' boat engines barely put that on in 10 years and if you're calling this a racing diesel that could have an overhaul notably before that it's even less of an issue. (those super high performance mercury marine 3hp per cubic inch gas engines I think are only warranted for 50 hours or something)
I'd be very interested to see the results of this project if you do it, but a constant load is still something rarely explored when all the 4-500hp guys usually only have the hammer down for 10-11 seconds. Nobody can guarantee there wouldn't be a blown engine or two you have to forensically examine because sustained load is not the same as more hp for a shorter time, other than connecting rods and pistons are two things often swapped in any truly high performance build.
futureswap
11-18-2022, 04:11 PM #5(11-13-2022, 01:00 PM)barrote Tricky question.... 300hp for 30min , out of a 606?
One should think that the 606 was engenired to last all day @ 180hp in they're class E cars... WOT for 24h.
I'm pretty sure it handles the 300hp for 30min,
I'm pretty sure it would last 30 minutes, my comment was more whether or not it lasts 25,000 hours like a marine diesel only putting out 1/2hp per cubic inch like a 12v-71 in a lobster boat.
How many 30 minute racing trips do you need to get between rebuilds?I remember from past reading wear at 1hp per cubic inch tends to reduce the life of a marine diesel to about that of a marine gas engine like 2000 hours. Yet many 'recreational' boat engines barely put that on in 10 years and if you're calling this a racing diesel that could have an overhaul notably before that it's even less of an issue. (those super high performance mercury marine 3hp per cubic inch gas engines I think are only warranted for 50 hours or something)
I'd be very interested to see the results of this project if you do it, but a constant load is still something rarely explored when all the 4-500hp guys usually only have the hammer down for 10-11 seconds. Nobody can guarantee there wouldn't be a blown engine or two you have to forensically examine because sustained load is not the same as more hp for a shorter time, other than connecting rods and pistons are two things often swapped in any truly high performance build.
(11-18-2022, 04:11 PM)futureswap I'd be very interested to see the results of this project if you do it,
Everything about this is still in planning phase. I've dreamt of a high performance fast diesel boat for few years already but all Pachangas, Scarabs, Bajas, Checkmates and all other boats that type are with petrol engines, which seems quite odd to me that no boat manufacturer ever wants to make a fast diesel boat. I can think of only one which is Riva Aquariva Super that comes with twin V8 Yanmar diesels totaling 740hp but that is a half million € boat so it is quite out of my reach
Currently I have a w210 with the 606 and the car seems to come near the end of its life and when that happens I will at least attempt to start this project but am keen to hear all info and advice beforehand so I wont be just scratching my head when the MOT fails and it is time to pull out the engine.
I have looked at every marinized 606 there are to see on the internet and all configurations seem to differ significantly so it doesn't make it very easy to figure out what kind of recipe would I need to end up with good +300hp marinized OM606
(11-13-2022, 01:00 PM)barrote Just try out and post... the only way to learn ...I'd prefer not to perform this project like that as this would end up being an endless money pit that way.
I did a lot of google research and read a lot about different 606 configurations and at this moment I am leaning towards hx35 with the bigger 14cm2 exhaust housing, any objections? There are plenty of different size compressors for it though, fairly puzzled which size would work the best and can't seem to find any good info about how appropriate compressor size is determined. I read that the compressor should be chosen which is the most efficient and often bigger compressors are less efficient, meaning I should go with the 54mm compressor instead of 58mm?
(11-18-2022, 04:11 PM)futureswap I'd be very interested to see the results of this project if you do it,
Everything about this is still in planning phase. I've dreamt of a high performance fast diesel boat for few years already but all Pachangas, Scarabs, Bajas, Checkmates and all other boats that type are with petrol engines, which seems quite odd to me that no boat manufacturer ever wants to make a fast diesel boat. I can think of only one which is Riva Aquariva Super that comes with twin V8 Yanmar diesels totaling 740hp but that is a half million € boat so it is quite out of my reach
Currently I have a w210 with the 606 and the car seems to come near the end of its life and when that happens I will at least attempt to start this project but am keen to hear all info and advice beforehand so I wont be just scratching my head when the MOT fails and it is time to pull out the engine.
I have looked at every marinized 606 there are to see on the internet and all configurations seem to differ significantly so it doesn't make it very easy to figure out what kind of recipe would I need to end up with good +300hp marinized OM606
(11-13-2022, 01:00 PM)barrote Just try out and post... the only way to learn ...I'd prefer not to perform this project like that as this would end up being an endless money pit that way.
I did a lot of google research and read a lot about different 606 configurations and at this moment I am leaning towards hx35 with the bigger 14cm2 exhaust housing, any objections? There are plenty of different size compressors for it though, fairly puzzled which size would work the best and can't seem to find any good info about how appropriate compressor size is determined. I read that the compressor should be chosen which is the most efficient and often bigger compressors are less efficient, meaning I should go with the 54mm compressor instead of 58mm?
I'd highly suggest you investigate the smaller Holset options (like the HE250 I mentioned above).
X Double Dot
11-29-2022, 12:27 PM #7use the matchbot program I mentioned above (just google "matchbot"), it's from borg warner. It'll give you an idea what airflow, and then what compressor size you need for that airflow. based on the 5 minutes I spent on it I think an HX35 will be too large for a max 300HP, on the left side of the sweet spot of the compressor map. Not saying it wont work, but you'll likely be blowing alot of smoke getting it spooled and it'll be even less efficient cruising around at mid throttle. it seems like a nightmare for getting the boat on plane
I'd highly suggest you investigate the smaller Holset options (like the HE250 I mentioned above).
HX35 is definitely big enough for 300hp. You could go smaller, but I would only do that if you were going to spring for a modern turbo like Garrett G25 or BW EFR 6758.
OM606, HX35, 20PSI, 3500rpm, AWIC with ~45F water running thru it. 300HP all day long with 1000F EGT. Either of those new turbos would spool ~1000rpm sooner, have way quicker throttle response, and run probably 200F cooler.
I hope I'm stating the obvious, but you'll want some sort of high flow exhaust manifold not the OEM. The kangaroo team cast manifold could work. Would be nice to see their manifold put to the test like that, but I like the idea of a beefy tubular manifold for steady state heavy loading.
A well built air-to-water intercooler, a good exhaust manifold, and injection pump are a large part of the project expenses. Along with all the other stuff in a build, having to switch turbos once isn't exactly a money pit considering how cheap and resellable an HX35 would be. T4 Hx35 for starters, if its too laggy then go to T4 6758. If you don't plan on pushing it above much above 4000rpm, then the EFR 6258 would be quite ideal. Happy cruising at 20-25psi @ 3500rpm. ~25PSI out to 4200rpm. 35psi @ 2500rpm if you can really load it up and want to try to bend the rods. I would be running one if I was driving at sea level.
Isn't there a video on YT of a 606 in a boat with an HX40? Super laggy, lots of black smoke, and seemed to finally spool up to make decent power right at redline.
As far as the 7.5mm vs 8mm Dieselmeken elements, the 8mm flow ramps up so drastically that they are much more difficult to control over various loads/rpm. The 7.5mm elements can do 300hp easily and probably 450 if you really max them out.
HX35 is definitely big enough for 300hp. You could go smaller, but I would only do that if you were going to spring for a modern turbo like Garrett G25 or BW EFR 6758.
OM606, HX35, 20PSI, 3500rpm, AWIC with ~45F water running thru it. 300HP all day long with 1000F EGT. Either of those new turbos would spool ~1000rpm sooner, have way quicker throttle response, and run probably 200F cooler.
I hope I'm stating the obvious, but you'll want some sort of high flow exhaust manifold not the OEM. The kangaroo team cast manifold could work. Would be nice to see their manifold put to the test like that, but I like the idea of a beefy tubular manifold for steady state heavy loading.
A well built air-to-water intercooler, a good exhaust manifold, and injection pump are a large part of the project expenses. Along with all the other stuff in a build, having to switch turbos once isn't exactly a money pit considering how cheap and resellable an HX35 would be. T4 Hx35 for starters, if its too laggy then go to T4 6758. If you don't plan on pushing it above much above 4000rpm, then the EFR 6258 would be quite ideal. Happy cruising at 20-25psi @ 3500rpm. ~25PSI out to 4200rpm. 35psi @ 2500rpm if you can really load it up and want to try to bend the rods. I would be running one if I was driving at sea level.
Isn't there a video on YT of a 606 in a boat with an HX40? Super laggy, lots of black smoke, and seemed to finally spool up to make decent power right at redline.
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