internals upgrades for bigger power? (250hp plus)
internals upgrades for bigger power? (250hp plus)
I get everything needs upgraded turbos, injectors, pumps, but how strong are the parts? I've seen people make 500hp, 600hp, I think even one claimed 700hp build somewhere, at some point, out of a 6cyl...
Are there off the shelf upgraded rods and pistons or is everything custom? How do cranks hold together and head gaskets and when do people use studs, and and and etc... can someone with more experience let me know whats out there? I might want to use some stronger parts in my lower power tow build is all.
futureswap
12-30-2022, 04:37 PM #1I'm just curious how the 'big power' mercedes diesels go as far as internals upgrades... i'm referring just to normal car use right now. (not towing use like i'm planning)
I get everything needs upgraded turbos, injectors, pumps, but how strong are the parts? I've seen people make 500hp, 600hp, I think even one claimed 700hp build somewhere, at some point, out of a 6cyl...
Are there off the shelf upgraded rods and pistons or is everything custom? How do cranks hold together and head gaskets and when do people use studs, and and and etc... can someone with more experience let me know whats out there? I might want to use some stronger parts in my lower power tow build is all.
(12-30-2022, 04:37 PM)futureswap I'm just curious how the 'big power' mercedes diesels go as far as internals upgrades... i'm referring just to normal car use right now. (not towing use like i'm planning)
I get everything needs upgraded turbos, injectors, pumps, but how strong are the parts? I've seen people make 500hp, 600hp, I think even one claimed 700hp build somewhere, at some point, out of a 6cyl...
Are there off the shelf upgraded rods and pistons or is everything custom? How do cranks hold together and head gaskets and when do people use studs, and and and etc... can someone with more experience let me know whats out there? I might want to use some stronger parts in my lower power tow build is all.
As someone who put an om606 in their truck and uses it from time to time to tow...can I ask why you aren't looking at a 4bt or similar engines designed for towing? or a om648 for that matter.
weight and size was what drove me to the 606 as a 4bt/6bt wouldn't fit in my toyota. that said, because these motors are more bore than stroke they don't have have the same grunt (or potential for grunt) off idle.
X Double Dot
01-03-2023, 09:37 AM #2(12-30-2022, 04:37 PM)futureswap I'm just curious how the 'big power' mercedes diesels go as far as internals upgrades... i'm referring just to normal car use right now. (not towing use like i'm planning)
I get everything needs upgraded turbos, injectors, pumps, but how strong are the parts? I've seen people make 500hp, 600hp, I think even one claimed 700hp build somewhere, at some point, out of a 6cyl...
Are there off the shelf upgraded rods and pistons or is everything custom? How do cranks hold together and head gaskets and when do people use studs, and and and etc... can someone with more experience let me know whats out there? I might want to use some stronger parts in my lower power tow build is all.
As someone who put an om606 in their truck and uses it from time to time to tow...can I ask why you aren't looking at a 4bt or similar engines designed for towing? or a om648 for that matter.
weight and size was what drove me to the 606 as a 4bt/6bt wouldn't fit in my toyota. that said, because these motors are more bore than stroke they don't have have the same grunt (or potential for grunt) off idle.
Doug F.
So. Florida, USA
99 W210 E300TD
92 W140 300SD
They get those numbers from high revving, which towing is not, nor is a truck unless you're mud racing. A truck motor is a better fit for you. These are car engines designed for cars... Parts are super strong stock, except rods... However parts are hard to get.
Doug F.
So. Florida, USA
99 W210 E300TD
92 W140 300SD
(01-03-2023, 09:37 AM)X Double Dot As someone who put an om606 in their truck and uses it from time to time to tow...can I ask why you aren't looking at a 4bt or similar engines designed for towing? or a om648 for that matter.
weight and size was what drove me to the 606 as a 4bt/6bt wouldn't fit in my toyota. that said, because these motors are more bore than stroke they don't have have the same grunt (or potential for grunt) off idle.
Weight size and cost are my reasons. Also the roughness of the "transmission killer" 4bt - in the bread vans they killed the TH400's I'm only looking at towing from time to time. A 6bt is too big and heavy, a duramax too big (for not wanting to do body mods) and too expensive, a quality 6.2 or 6.5 too expensive to get one that's not crap reliability. (only the marine and Hummer ones are worth a damn) Also a bit big.
I'm looking for a more car-like towing experience if i'm only going to tow 10% of the time and 90% of the time be a daily driver. My specific vehicle is a little up in the air - half ton pickup? Midsize/compact pickup? Early 90's B-body bubble Caprice? Maybe even a Dakota or Durango midsize SUV... I think the 5cyl/6cyl Mercedes would be a perfect fit in place of mild 90's gas V8's that made 200-230hp max.
I don't think i'd be abusing it - I don't have my notes handy but the 2.3L 4cyl SOHC diesel from the Sprinter's were used with 7000lb vehicle weight ratings and the 5cyls used in the 10,000lb rated ones. Would it have to rev a bit more, sure, but it did that with the 5 speed mercedes auto in those vans too. You might say well that was european use at like 55-60mph or so - well that's how I tow if i'm towing anything heavy for the vehicle anyway so i'm probably good.
Specifically I want to replace a 5.0L GM V8 - about 170-180hp, about 300lb-ft torque. A mild goose on power should do that. That doesn't mean i'm not curious about more, especially if I were to have an engine apart anyways and the parts weren't hard to obtain - like maybe the Sprinter crankshaft/rods is stronger even if you don't use the block and such, which may or may not be stronger and be worth swapping in. (i'd specifically focus on getting a Sprinter engine but i'd prefer IDI, and the 5cyls seem to be DI in the Sprinter by what I can tell - so maybe a head swap on a Sprinter short block to IDI injection?)
All said i'm always curious about more power, what guy isn't? If I could have 260hp as easily as 180hp with just another size up injector i'd be tempted!
(01-08-2023, 02:09 PM)Doug F They get those numbers from high revving, which towing is not, nor is a truck unless you're mud racing. A truck motor is a better fit for you. These are car engines designed for cars... Parts are super strong stock, except rods... However parts are hard to get.
A Sprinter 5cyl when rated for 10,000lbs of vehicle kind of is a truck motor.
I'm okay with gas-like power curves, it means using a gas-engine transmission and not having to futz around with axle ratios or any other changes.I'm just doing my due dilligence...curious whats out there... is there a go-to for a rod upgrade and what power level in cars do people tend to seek that, 300hp?
futureswap
01-30-2023, 01:48 PM #4(01-03-2023, 09:37 AM)X Double Dot As someone who put an om606 in their truck and uses it from time to time to tow...can I ask why you aren't looking at a 4bt or similar engines designed for towing? or a om648 for that matter.
weight and size was what drove me to the 606 as a 4bt/6bt wouldn't fit in my toyota. that said, because these motors are more bore than stroke they don't have have the same grunt (or potential for grunt) off idle.
Weight size and cost are my reasons. Also the roughness of the "transmission killer" 4bt - in the bread vans they killed the TH400's I'm only looking at towing from time to time. A 6bt is too big and heavy, a duramax too big (for not wanting to do body mods) and too expensive, a quality 6.2 or 6.5 too expensive to get one that's not crap reliability. (only the marine and Hummer ones are worth a damn) Also a bit big.
I'm looking for a more car-like towing experience if i'm only going to tow 10% of the time and 90% of the time be a daily driver. My specific vehicle is a little up in the air - half ton pickup? Midsize/compact pickup? Early 90's B-body bubble Caprice? Maybe even a Dakota or Durango midsize SUV... I think the 5cyl/6cyl Mercedes would be a perfect fit in place of mild 90's gas V8's that made 200-230hp max.
I don't think i'd be abusing it - I don't have my notes handy but the 2.3L 4cyl SOHC diesel from the Sprinter's were used with 7000lb vehicle weight ratings and the 5cyls used in the 10,000lb rated ones. Would it have to rev a bit more, sure, but it did that with the 5 speed mercedes auto in those vans too. You might say well that was european use at like 55-60mph or so - well that's how I tow if i'm towing anything heavy for the vehicle anyway so i'm probably good.
Specifically I want to replace a 5.0L GM V8 - about 170-180hp, about 300lb-ft torque. A mild goose on power should do that. That doesn't mean i'm not curious about more, especially if I were to have an engine apart anyways and the parts weren't hard to obtain - like maybe the Sprinter crankshaft/rods is stronger even if you don't use the block and such, which may or may not be stronger and be worth swapping in. (i'd specifically focus on getting a Sprinter engine but i'd prefer IDI, and the 5cyls seem to be DI in the Sprinter by what I can tell - so maybe a head swap on a Sprinter short block to IDI injection?)
All said i'm always curious about more power, what guy isn't? If I could have 260hp as easily as 180hp with just another size up injector i'd be tempted!
(01-08-2023, 02:09 PM)Doug F They get those numbers from high revving, which towing is not, nor is a truck unless you're mud racing. A truck motor is a better fit for you. These are car engines designed for cars... Parts are super strong stock, except rods... However parts are hard to get.
A Sprinter 5cyl when rated for 10,000lbs of vehicle kind of is a truck motor.
I'm okay with gas-like power curves, it means using a gas-engine transmission and not having to futz around with axle ratios or any other changes.I'm just doing my due dilligence...curious whats out there... is there a go-to for a rod upgrade and what power level in cars do people tend to seek that, 300hp?
a key thing to note when comparing these Mercedes to anemic sounding 90s V8s, or even I6's of the same era, they have way less torque down at idle. like it's not even close. An automatic transmission with the right torque converter fixes this. Its just worth making it clear that if you use a manual in a heavy vehicle, don't expect it to drive like a truck engine.
X Double Dot
01-31-2023, 10:52 AM #5big part of it is where do you want torque. if it's at high rpm, then the 605/606 is fine as is stock, part of why they're so popular, not having crack it open for upgrades. they handle torque well at high rpm, hence why you see so many "500hp OM606!" videos. Most people mod them with larger turbos and as such don't make much more than stock torque at low rpm. Rebuilding the 605/606 is a pricey endeavor, "MR300D" on youtube has some videos on rebuilding his step by step. I believe it was around 8k. Rebuilding these doesn't seem as cost effective as say a toyota or gm engine.
a key thing to note when comparing these Mercedes to anemic sounding 90s V8s, or even I6's of the same era, they have way less torque down at idle. like it's not even close. An automatic transmission with the right torque converter fixes this. Its just worth making it clear that if you use a manual in a heavy vehicle, don't expect it to drive like a truck engine.
I dont think i'm asking too much for a 50% torque boost without trying to radically raise the torque center of the powerband, but it doesn't bother me if the engine revs to 5000-5500 if the gas v8's will do the same. If boosting 75% is as easy as 50% for the same money and the internals will take it, it's more a question of 'why not', but crazy power is not my goal. I want a somewhat carlike diesel (driveable, not perfectly refined but not a rattlecan like the 4bt) replacing the same job i've done with pre-LS gas engines. I've got no complaints about those gas engines - they do their job, even if they're not all that powerful or fast. A little more power be lovely - highway passing and hills I mean esp if the cost to up injectors is about the same - but not a dealbreaker if I can't.
Automatic is a given and I was planning on whatever stock gas engine torque converter. (which i'm pretty sure are higher stall than diesels normally like the 6.2L gm) Where does the torque curve pick up properly/usable powerband, hopefully by 1800ish? (stock GM torque converters for gas engines I seem to recall stall about there)
If rebuilding one costs 8k... erf.. i'll probably choose to make do with swapping other used engines in decent shape... really i'm going for simplicity here... for years i've wanted to go diesel, and if going diesel works well and we keep having price spikes like in the last year i'd like to consider playing with SVO/waste oils like i've heard others do with these engines tolerating it fairly well. Thats a big if though - this is an engine swap for a daily driver with some weekend tow ability and the reason i'm not leaving the engine in the Mercedes is I need something more usable than just a sedan - a Caprice station wagon i can haul 4x8 sheet in the back, same with pickups.
I'm interested in these engines beyond just one project as well - if the first project works, chances of swapping into a second, maybe even a third project are not off the table. (maybe into a Jeep or who knows what else) I dont need the fastest most desirable turbo OM606 even tho it'd meet my ~170hp min power goal off the bat - I assume an OM602 sohc or OM617 iron head 5cyl with upgraded injectors and a larger junkyard turbo from something else be doable for less money for the donor car.
futureswap
01-31-2023, 10:07 PM #6I'm fine with comparable torque curves and driveability to a L03 305 chevy gas v8 - which peaks around 2400rpm, the early 90's small block pickup Vortec v8's peaked a bit higher at 2800rpm. Both were fine for light to mid tow duty maybe 4000-7000lbs max depending on axle ratios and such, like an S10 with a vortec v6 (less power than even the 305) is rated for 5000-6000lbs tow.
I dont think i'm asking too much for a 50% torque boost without trying to radically raise the torque center of the powerband, but it doesn't bother me if the engine revs to 5000-5500 if the gas v8's will do the same. If boosting 75% is as easy as 50% for the same money and the internals will take it, it's more a question of 'why not', but crazy power is not my goal. I want a somewhat carlike diesel (driveable, not perfectly refined but not a rattlecan like the 4bt) replacing the same job i've done with pre-LS gas engines. I've got no complaints about those gas engines - they do their job, even if they're not all that powerful or fast. A little more power be lovely - highway passing and hills I mean esp if the cost to up injectors is about the same - but not a dealbreaker if I can't.
Automatic is a given and I was planning on whatever stock gas engine torque converter. (which i'm pretty sure are higher stall than diesels normally like the 6.2L gm) Where does the torque curve pick up properly/usable powerband, hopefully by 1800ish? (stock GM torque converters for gas engines I seem to recall stall about there)
If rebuilding one costs 8k... erf.. i'll probably choose to make do with swapping other used engines in decent shape... really i'm going for simplicity here... for years i've wanted to go diesel, and if going diesel works well and we keep having price spikes like in the last year i'd like to consider playing with SVO/waste oils like i've heard others do with these engines tolerating it fairly well. Thats a big if though - this is an engine swap for a daily driver with some weekend tow ability and the reason i'm not leaving the engine in the Mercedes is I need something more usable than just a sedan - a Caprice station wagon i can haul 4x8 sheet in the back, same with pickups.
I'm interested in these engines beyond just one project as well - if the first project works, chances of swapping into a second, maybe even a third project are not off the table. (maybe into a Jeep or who knows what else) I dont need the fastest most desirable turbo OM606 even tho it'd meet my ~170hp min power goal off the bat - I assume an OM602 sohc or OM617 iron head 5cyl with upgraded injectors and a larger junkyard turbo from something else be doable for less money for the donor car.
Stock turbo data log
https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/white-l...338/page-7
gtd2060vz turbo data log
https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/white-l...338/page-8
X Double Dot
02-02-2023, 04:58 PM #7yea the auto will make this a lot more practical. I might get mine on a dyno this spring, until then I don't have torque numbers. But I can confirm that by 1800rpm it's making good usable torque with a VGT turbo and a 6mm pump. See the data logs below, once the turbo is spooled up it's fair to say it pulls well. you can also see the slope of the engine rpm change as it starts to accelerate harder.
Stock turbo data log
https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/white-l...338/page-7
gtd2060vz turbo data log
https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/white-l...338/page-8
For instance on the Cummins 12v's it sounds like by 800hp people are replacing rods and at 1000hp they're looking at replacing or upgrading nearly everything because blocks split when going to four digit territory. Fire rings which sound like they impair long term practicality (not a long life) and head studs and 100lb compound turbo boosts can make monster power and for some people can be a daily driver - but I don't want to throw alot of money at things for a short lifespan. People pushing a Cummins to 500-600hp sound like they still get well over 100k or 200k miles out of it even in tow duty, parts breakage just from power (not something like the Killer Dowel Pin or something like burning valves from EGT) isn't really an issue even at 2-3x factory power.
I'm trying to scale down to the equivalent of that i'm just not sure where that figure is for Mercedes diesels.
2-3x the factory power output might be a fair guess, seemingly being tough diesels (esp the Sprinter ones i'd want to think with 7-10k of van to move) but I could be wrong. Hearing of machines putting out crazy power 500-600-700hp is interesting - but as pointed out, at high RPM.You can wind a Cummins up too (not nearly as high as a Mercedes) but even if you ignore where the power CAN be, if the torque curve is shifted up much you lose daily driveability, MPG, the capacity to tow. I can build a 500-550hp compound turbo cummins that will be fast AND tow AND get MPG all day AND be pretty cheap believe it or not - but all besides 'fast' falls to pieces if you ask for 800-900hp on a 12 valve. (because of things like fixed timing, the newer 24v and using electronics can do a wider powerband)
So my real goal - is to boost Mercedes power - 50% to start across the board which if it's a tough diesel shouldn't blow it up - but I don't really want to kill driveability, MPG, or even towing capacity albeit with an automatic and a decent axle ratio. By what I understand of diesel physics this shouldn't be rocket science. I'm just curious whether more than 50% without breaking stuff is viable in the way that it is on many Cummins 12v.
futureswap
02-05-2023, 10:26 PM #8Slightly shifting to my original topic I guess i'm curious at what point the mods go from affordable to $$$$ - then trying to stay on the easier side of that. I figured if I understood what breaks at what power level and when people start to spend megabucks I could estimate where I felt comfortable building for.
For instance on the Cummins 12v's it sounds like by 800hp people are replacing rods and at 1000hp they're looking at replacing or upgrading nearly everything because blocks split when going to four digit territory. Fire rings which sound like they impair long term practicality (not a long life) and head studs and 100lb compound turbo boosts can make monster power and for some people can be a daily driver - but I don't want to throw alot of money at things for a short lifespan. People pushing a Cummins to 500-600hp sound like they still get well over 100k or 200k miles out of it even in tow duty, parts breakage just from power (not something like the Killer Dowel Pin or something like burning valves from EGT) isn't really an issue even at 2-3x factory power.
I'm trying to scale down to the equivalent of that i'm just not sure where that figure is for Mercedes diesels. 2-3x the factory power output might be a fair guess, seemingly being tough diesels (esp the Sprinter ones i'd want to think with 7-10k of van to move) but I could be wrong. Hearing of machines putting out crazy power 500-600-700hp is interesting - but as pointed out, at high RPM.
You can wind a Cummins up too (not nearly as high as a Mercedes) but even if you ignore where the power CAN be, if the torque curve is shifted up much you lose daily driveability, MPG, the capacity to tow. I can build a 500-550hp compound turbo cummins that will be fast AND tow AND get MPG all day AND be pretty cheap believe it or not - but all besides 'fast' falls to pieces if you ask for 800-900hp on a 12 valve. (because of things like fixed timing, the newer 24v and using electronics can do a wider powerband)
So my real goal - is to boost Mercedes power - 50% to start across the board which if it's a tough diesel shouldn't blow it up - but I don't really want to kill driveability, MPG, or even towing capacity albeit with an automatic and a decent axle ratio. By what I understand of diesel physics this shouldn't be rocket science. I'm just curious whether more than 50% without breaking stuff is viable in the way that it is on many Cummins 12v.
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