How to get absolute maximum fueling out of OM617 M pump?
How to get absolute maximum fueling out of OM617 M pump?
06-24-2023, 05:13 PM
#1
So what I want to know is that can I do anything else to get more fuel besides changing the elements? I hope to be able to reach atleast 140 crank hp because then I wouldn't have to get bigger elements.
So little story. I have an OM617 with a Holset HE221W and it has a M pump that has fuel screw as far out as it comes and I'm happy with how it works. Boost builds up really fast and power calculated from acceleration seems to be at 130hp. I have an intercooler on it and going from 0-140 has EGTS reaching 600 celsius which I have not gone above due to this engine being a non turbo diesel originally. My pump timing is at 25 degrees right now. EGTS are surprisingly good because it's the hottest time of the year here right now and my intake is in a bad location where it sucks hot air directly.
So what I want to know is that can I do anything else to get more fuel besides changing the elements? I hope to be able to reach atleast 140 crank hp because then I wouldn't have to get bigger elements.
06-25-2023, 02:29 PM
#2
Hi there,
I just finished changing the elements on my pump .
Along side them I also used delivery valves and from an edc pump .
From what I understand they can be modified(and Dieselmeken do that ), and I see two/three way that is achieved .
I would experiment only on spare valves, as this dimension is absolutely critical . In fact I don't know how one could grind this accurately enough to not disturb flow figures . The solution would be an optical profile grinding machine, but those are not easy to come by . There's also a cut described on page 18 here bosch diesel injection book .
This is also an excellent video showing how to get more rack travel video . But that is only on a stand .
There is also the fuel pipes whose stiffness affects figures as well, but I don't feel competent enough to cobble together an explanation .
In my build, especially for dyno testing, I'd like to look in to fuel quality, as poor fuel will affect things badly .
Cheers
Hi there,
I just finished changing the elements on my pump .
Along side them I also used delivery valves and from an edc pump .
From what I understand they can be modified(and Dieselmeken do that ), and I see two/three way that is achieved .
I would experiment only on spare valves, as this dimension is absolutely critical . In fact I don't know how one could grind this accurately enough to not disturb flow figures . The solution would be an optical profile grinding machine, but those are not easy to come by . There's also a cut described on page 18 here bosch diesel injection book .
This is also an excellent video showing how to get more rack travel video . But that is only on a stand .
There is also the fuel pipes whose stiffness affects figures as well, but I don't feel competent enough to cobble together an explanation .
In my build, especially for dyno testing, I'd like to look in to fuel quality, as poor fuel will affect things badly .
Cheers
07-01-2023, 08:26 PM
#3
(06-25-2023, 02:29 PM)NikoHi there,I just finished changing the elements on my pump .Along side them I also used delivery valves and from an edc pump .From what I understand they can be modified(and Dieselmeken do that ), and I see two/three way that is achieved .I would experiment only on spare valves, as this dimension is absolutely critical . In fact I don't know how one could grind this accurately enough to not disturb flow figures . The solution would be an optical profile grinding machine, but those are not easy to come by . There's also a cut described on page 18 here bosch diesel injection book .This is also an excellent video showing how to get more rack travel video . But that is only on a stand .There is also the fuel pipes whose stiffness affects figures as well, but I don't feel competent enough to cobble together an explanation .In my build, especially for dyno testing, I'd like to look in to fuel quality, as poor fuel will affect things badly .CheersThese things are a still bit too advanced for me but I got more rack travel without taking the pump out by removing the throttle stop like he showed in the video. From a quick measurement the throttle moves 2.5mm more without the screw and stops when the lever hits the side of the injection pump so I know it's not forcing anything inside. I tried it with the engine running and it smokes just a little bit more if I can say so. I will try it with acceleration testing later because that little smoke could be worth even 5 hp for all I know.I got it running pretty good with stock elements. My car has the older automatic without any vacuum controls and it slips quite bad but 0-100 is a tiny bit under 12 seconds when there is little slip. From that I figure the current hp must be at around 130hp
This post was last modified: 07-01-2023, 08:29 PM by Echo575.
(06-25-2023, 02:29 PM)NikoHi there,I just finished changing the elements on my pump .Along side them I also used delivery valves and from an edc pump .From what I understand they can be modified(and Dieselmeken do that ), and I see two/three way that is achieved .I would experiment only on spare valves, as this dimension is absolutely critical . In fact I don't know how one could grind this accurately enough to not disturb flow figures . The solution would be an optical profile grinding machine, but those are not easy to come by . There's also a cut described on page 18 here bosch diesel injection book .This is also an excellent video showing how to get more rack travel video . But that is only on a stand .There is also the fuel pipes whose stiffness affects figures as well, but I don't feel competent enough to cobble together an explanation .In my build, especially for dyno testing, I'd like to look in to fuel quality, as poor fuel will affect things badly .CheersThese things are a still bit too advanced for me but I got more rack travel without taking the pump out by removing the throttle stop like he showed in the video. From a quick measurement the throttle moves 2.5mm more without the screw and stops when the lever hits the side of the injection pump so I know it's not forcing anything inside. I tried it with the engine running and it smokes just a little bit more if I can say so. I will try it with acceleration testing later because that little smoke could be worth even 5 hp for all I know.I got it running pretty good with stock elements. My car has the older automatic without any vacuum controls and it slips quite bad but 0-100 is a tiny bit under 12 seconds when there is little slip. From that I figure the current hp must be at around 130hp
07-02-2023, 09:23 AM
#4
Should allow you to play around with advance a bit more .
I also looked at Cetane improvers as that will give a better burn rate . A company in the uk sells that stuff .
Should allow you to play around with advance a bit more .
07-04-2023, 07:31 PM
#5
(07-02-2023, 09:23 AM)Niko I also looked at Cetane improvers as that will give a better burn rate . A company in the uk sells that stuff .
Should allow you to play around with advance a bit more .
I don't know about using additives for advance. I just want more fuel. Also the advance has 2 degrees of headroom on my engine still if the reported 27 degrees is safe but I will see how it affects after all the other things are done.
I read a bit more and found old posts where dieselmeken states the throttle stop screw removal can possibly give 5-8% more fuel but has risk of damage due to governorweight apparently hitting something. Without this screw it definitely does smoke more and the car is faster and possibly has upto 10 hp more but I won't be running without the stop screw if it can break the pump.
Also while adjusting the pump I had to back off the torque control screw multiple times due to hanging revs and I guess I could try turning it back in until issues arise. The only problem I have with these adjustments is that there are no numbers anywhere how these adjustments really effect. Like if I turn the torque control screw in 1/8 turns could it increase the fuel curve cutoff rpm by 100 or 500 rpm? I have no idea how sensitive this screw is.
(07-02-2023, 09:23 AM)Niko I also looked at Cetane improvers as that will give a better burn rate . A company in the uk sells that stuff .
Should allow you to play around with advance a bit more .
I don't know about using additives for advance. I just want more fuel. Also the advance has 2 degrees of headroom on my engine still if the reported 27 degrees is safe but I will see how it affects after all the other things are done.
I read a bit more and found old posts where dieselmeken states the throttle stop screw removal can possibly give 5-8% more fuel but has risk of damage due to governorweight apparently hitting something. Without this screw it definitely does smoke more and the car is faster and possibly has upto 10 hp more but I won't be running without the stop screw if it can break the pump.
Also while adjusting the pump I had to back off the torque control screw multiple times due to hanging revs and I guess I could try turning it back in until issues arise. The only problem I have with these adjustments is that there are no numbers anywhere how these adjustments really effect. Like if I turn the torque control screw in 1/8 turns could it increase the fuel curve cutoff rpm by 100 or 500 rpm? I have no idea how sensitive this screw is.
07-05-2023, 01:24 AM
#6
(07-04-2023, 07:31 PM)Echo575 Like if I turn the torque control screw in 1/8 turns could it increase the fuel curve cutoff rpm by 100 or 500 rpm? I have no idea how sensitive this screw is.
Well he starts off by removing a shim from the torque capsule, increasing the gap from 0.6 to about 1.5 , but I have no idea how it will affect things . If you want to extend the full fuel rpm the safer option would be to lower the rpm limit to see how sensitive it is, and just expect it to be linear . At any rate having easy access to the stop lever wold be good .
(07-04-2023, 07:31 PM)Echo575 Like if I turn the torque control screw in 1/8 turns could it increase the fuel curve cutoff rpm by 100 or 500 rpm? I have no idea how sensitive this screw is.
Well he starts off by removing a shim from the torque capsule, increasing the gap from 0.6 to about 1.5 , but I have no idea how it will affect things . If you want to extend the full fuel rpm the safer option would be to lower the rpm limit to see how sensitive it is, and just expect it to be linear . At any rate having easy access to the stop lever wold be good .
07-17-2023, 02:59 PM
#7
(07-05-2023, 01:24 AM)Niko(07-04-2023, 07:31 PM)Echo575 Like if I turn the torque control screw in 1/8 turns could it increase the fuel curve cutoff rpm by 100 or 500 rpm? I have no idea how sensitive this screw is.
Well he starts off by removing a shim from the torque capsule, increasing the gap from 0.6 to about 1.5 , but I have no idea how it will affect things . If you want to extend the full fuel rpm the safer option would be to lower the rpm limit to see how sensitive it is, and just expect it to be linear . At any rate having easy access to the stop lever wold be good .
I did the adjustments and have come to a conclusion.
Some good news and perhaps bad also. I checked the rack travel by running the engine without the rack cover and the rack goes almost as far as it goes when pushing it with my finger. Removing the throttle stop allows for maximum rack travel.
I verified it by revving it from the rack with my finger, and with the throttle lever it has the same travel which is maxed out because the rack physically can't come out any further.
I'm sure you can still do some trickery to get more fuel out of the 5.5mm elements but considering the long injection duration, it probably isn't worth it.
The good news are that now I know what the 5.5mm elements are capable of. The bad that I have to get bigger elements if I want anymore power.
The rack also seems to start falling back after about 2500 rpm probably due to the torque control screw setting being what it is. I would post a video of me revving it from the rack where I show that the throttle lever moves the rack the same amount as using your finger to rev it while the engine runs, but I figure nobody wants to see that.
Currently with my HE221W black smoke completely stops at 0.8 bar. It's about 0.7 bar with the throttle stop in place. I know the throttle stop is there for a reason but my pump didn't blow up from it at least yet. I have increased the max rpm by around 300 and no load rpm is about 5500 rpm right now. The car pulls strongly to about 4000 but I have seen the rpms reach 4800 in first and second gear. I'm very annoyed by having a 3.46 diff ratio and no overdrive transmission. The acceleration suffers from the weird gearing and the engine roars at 3000 rpm going 60 mph
(07-05-2023, 01:24 AM)Niko(07-04-2023, 07:31 PM)Echo575 Like if I turn the torque control screw in 1/8 turns could it increase the fuel curve cutoff rpm by 100 or 500 rpm? I have no idea how sensitive this screw is.
Well he starts off by removing a shim from the torque capsule, increasing the gap from 0.6 to about 1.5 , but I have no idea how it will affect things . If you want to extend the full fuel rpm the safer option would be to lower the rpm limit to see how sensitive it is, and just expect it to be linear . At any rate having easy access to the stop lever wold be good .
I did the adjustments and have come to a conclusion.
Some good news and perhaps bad also. I checked the rack travel by running the engine without the rack cover and the rack goes almost as far as it goes when pushing it with my finger. Removing the throttle stop allows for maximum rack travel.
I verified it by revving it from the rack with my finger, and with the throttle lever it has the same travel which is maxed out because the rack physically can't come out any further.
I'm sure you can still do some trickery to get more fuel out of the 5.5mm elements but considering the long injection duration, it probably isn't worth it.
The good news are that now I know what the 5.5mm elements are capable of. The bad that I have to get bigger elements if I want anymore power.
The rack also seems to start falling back after about 2500 rpm probably due to the torque control screw setting being what it is. I would post a video of me revving it from the rack where I show that the throttle lever moves the rack the same amount as using your finger to rev it while the engine runs, but I figure nobody wants to see that.
Currently with my HE221W black smoke completely stops at 0.8 bar. It's about 0.7 bar with the throttle stop in place. I know the throttle stop is there for a reason but my pump didn't blow up from it at least yet. I have increased the max rpm by around 300 and no load rpm is about 5500 rpm right now. The car pulls strongly to about 4000 but I have seen the rpms reach 4800 in first and second gear. I'm very annoyed by having a 3.46 diff ratio and no overdrive transmission. The acceleration suffers from the weird gearing and the engine roars at 3000 rpm going 60 mph
07-20-2023, 03:33 AM
#9
(07-19-2023, 01:52 PM)Niko The 5.5 element has a cut to limit the maximum fuel . 6mm from edc pumps don't have those . But if oou want to maximize your turbo you're in the 7.5 8mm elements .
I have a set of 6mm elements I don't need, if you're interested .
Yeah, I guess I would have to change the elements. My car was an automatic and I put a 4 speed manual in it last week. I fear I couldn't take any advantage of the 7.5mm elements because the clutch would certainly slip. The 6mm could allow for 150 hp without the injection duration being too long? Also we have an issue that we live in different countries so me obtaining the 6mm elements from you would be difficult most likely.
Would these 6mm elements fit an om617 M pump?
This post was last modified: 07-20-2023, 03:36 AM by Echo575.
(07-19-2023, 01:52 PM)Niko The 5.5 element has a cut to limit the maximum fuel . 6mm from edc pumps don't have those . But if oou want to maximize your turbo you're in the 7.5 8mm elements .
I have a set of 6mm elements I don't need, if you're interested .
Yeah, I guess I would have to change the elements. My car was an automatic and I put a 4 speed manual in it last week. I fear I couldn't take any advantage of the 7.5mm elements because the clutch would certainly slip. The 6mm could allow for 150 hp without the injection duration being too long? Also we have an issue that we live in different countries so me obtaining the 6mm elements from you would be difficult most likely.
Would these 6mm elements fit an om617 M pump?
07-20-2023, 08:40 AM
#10
Bigger elements are you only way to increase fuel.
Cutting collars does NOT increase fuel, it creates post-injection from the pressure wave in the fuel line popping open the nozzle again. This is uncontrolled injection quantity that happens late in the combustion cycle. It makes far more smoke and heat than power.
Bigger elements are you only way to increase fuel.
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