Hitting up the magazines
Hitting up the magazines
Grassroots Motorsports, Sport Compact Car (we're no porkier than a third or fourth generation Supra!), European Car, hell, even Hot Rod or Car Craft might bite, both at a hot rodded diesel and something like my 'Project Blasphemy' - these cars are something different, affordable, simply better than any American car made at the time barring (maybe) the C4 Vette, and a lot of options for personalization and different needs - all out performance, daily driver, highway cruising high-miler, or just a timeless classic with some spice. I've seen the Volvos get written up in passing by some of those mags, and they're not really in the same league as our cars, though they have a better aftermarket. The perception is that no one is into these cars, and even though I'd been looking at them for a decade, it's only recently that I bought one, drove it stock for awhile, and then began making modifications. If I could call up a spring company, or a swaybar manufacturer, or Garret Turbo, and go, he, it's XYZ Magazine and we need a custom part for a 300D, they'd make it because it'd be exposure for them (a small forum like this doesn't even count in comparison) offering a unique product for a niche vehicle. If people can see what the cars can do, then the scene grows and the Finns wouldn't be the only people drifting these cars with white smoke coming out of the tailpipe.
A good example is the 240SX: that car was an also-ran essentially until SCC built one and people saw what one was like with an SR20DET, and that they were equally good in grip or drift racing, and at the time they could be had for nothing - now clapped out automatic SOHC 240SXs seemingly can't be touched for under 1500 bucks, the price I paid for BOTH of the Benz's in my driveway right now. Hell, that same car pretty much started the 'flat black on imports' trend, too. All from one project car. The W123 might or might not be comparable to a more modern, multilink IRS chassis, but it's at a certain sweet spot of ability and simplicity that I think almost any gearhead would appreciate, especially when they see the car they could be driving instead of the V6 78 Malibu that still needs a motor swap to be fun for the same (even more!) money. G-bodies are becoming less cheap as their availability dwindles, when people see that they can have a reliable, nice car for the same money as a clapped out American beater that wasn't much to write home about when it was new, and hasn't held up very well, it'd be a no-brainer. Want your old 70's tank to actually turn? Making a GM car behave would probably take as much in aftermarket parts as it would take to buy a running and driving W123, and it'll still never have the same German steering feel, still won't be IRS, still won't have a chassis worth a damn, and that's GM, cream of the crap - Ford and Mopar chassis (especially the latter) are worse.
I think that one of those magazines, or maybe some others I'm not thinking of, would bite, and that it could only grow the scene. Think about it: what if we got one magazine to do one project car, and those few articles generated, say, an affordable IP mod to make it a 'budget Myna' courtesy of a shop that wouldn't give a forum of enthusiasts the time of day, but would certainly answer a call from Primedia. Or resulted in something we're not already working on ourselves, like aftermarket sway bars. Transmission adapters that actually get built, not just talked about on a website for five years, dyno testing for our engines which isn't often done. Finding out how much the cutting of X amount of coils increases the stiffness of a factory spring. Lots of things that are cake for a magazine to do, but a lot of work, investment, and labor of love for someone to do on their own. These cars weren't often modified in the first 20 years of their life due to A) lack of interest in people who were interested in that era of Mercedes, and B) the fact that the cars were very expensive when new - 5k dollars more than a new Vette at the time. Wonder what an 81 Vette is worth nowadays?
Bet I can build two Blasphemies that would handle, ride, steer, accelerate, and brake better than what an average C3 Vette would cost, not to mention have a trunk, back seat, and four doors. That's a lot of appeal to a lot of people, whether you're a speed freak like me or someone who can't afford a Prius and understands that they're really not good for the environment anyway, quite a bit worse than driving a solid old car that can run on biodiesel and who's manufacturing impact has been absorbed as of decades ago, whereas nickel is being strip-mined right now to meet the demand for hybrid batteries, and the mines are toxic dead zones after they're exhausted. Just want a reliable, safe car that won't cost more than $3k, now that you've decided you don't want a car payment?
So what do you think, I think if we came up with a kind of 'press kit' like one would for a musical act, and sent it around through the right channels, that we'd eventually hit paydirt. Some write ups of modded W123s from the US and some nice imported pics and vids from Europe to see what they've been turned into on their native soil.
CID Vicious
12-29-2009, 05:22 AM #1You know, an idea in general for all of us who are interested in these cars and motors - why don't we get up an email campaign for one of these magazines to take a W123 and do X, Y, and Z to it. Show them some examples of what's been done and where we're going, even though we're mostly just grassroots enthusiasts.
Grassroots Motorsports, Sport Compact Car (we're no porkier than a third or fourth generation Supra!), European Car, hell, even Hot Rod or Car Craft might bite, both at a hot rodded diesel and something like my 'Project Blasphemy' - these cars are something different, affordable, simply better than any American car made at the time barring (maybe) the C4 Vette, and a lot of options for personalization and different needs - all out performance, daily driver, highway cruising high-miler, or just a timeless classic with some spice. I've seen the Volvos get written up in passing by some of those mags, and they're not really in the same league as our cars, though they have a better aftermarket. The perception is that no one is into these cars, and even though I'd been looking at them for a decade, it's only recently that I bought one, drove it stock for awhile, and then began making modifications. If I could call up a spring company, or a swaybar manufacturer, or Garret Turbo, and go, he, it's XYZ Magazine and we need a custom part for a 300D, they'd make it because it'd be exposure for them (a small forum like this doesn't even count in comparison) offering a unique product for a niche vehicle. If people can see what the cars can do, then the scene grows and the Finns wouldn't be the only people drifting these cars with white smoke coming out of the tailpipe.
A good example is the 240SX: that car was an also-ran essentially until SCC built one and people saw what one was like with an SR20DET, and that they were equally good in grip or drift racing, and at the time they could be had for nothing - now clapped out automatic SOHC 240SXs seemingly can't be touched for under 1500 bucks, the price I paid for BOTH of the Benz's in my driveway right now. Hell, that same car pretty much started the 'flat black on imports' trend, too. All from one project car. The W123 might or might not be comparable to a more modern, multilink IRS chassis, but it's at a certain sweet spot of ability and simplicity that I think almost any gearhead would appreciate, especially when they see the car they could be driving instead of the V6 78 Malibu that still needs a motor swap to be fun for the same (even more!) money. G-bodies are becoming less cheap as their availability dwindles, when people see that they can have a reliable, nice car for the same money as a clapped out American beater that wasn't much to write home about when it was new, and hasn't held up very well, it'd be a no-brainer. Want your old 70's tank to actually turn? Making a GM car behave would probably take as much in aftermarket parts as it would take to buy a running and driving W123, and it'll still never have the same German steering feel, still won't be IRS, still won't have a chassis worth a damn, and that's GM, cream of the crap - Ford and Mopar chassis (especially the latter) are worse.
I think that one of those magazines, or maybe some others I'm not thinking of, would bite, and that it could only grow the scene. Think about it: what if we got one magazine to do one project car, and those few articles generated, say, an affordable IP mod to make it a 'budget Myna' courtesy of a shop that wouldn't give a forum of enthusiasts the time of day, but would certainly answer a call from Primedia. Or resulted in something we're not already working on ourselves, like aftermarket sway bars. Transmission adapters that actually get built, not just talked about on a website for five years, dyno testing for our engines which isn't often done. Finding out how much the cutting of X amount of coils increases the stiffness of a factory spring. Lots of things that are cake for a magazine to do, but a lot of work, investment, and labor of love for someone to do on their own. These cars weren't often modified in the first 20 years of their life due to A) lack of interest in people who were interested in that era of Mercedes, and B) the fact that the cars were very expensive when new - 5k dollars more than a new Vette at the time. Wonder what an 81 Vette is worth nowadays?
Bet I can build two Blasphemies that would handle, ride, steer, accelerate, and brake better than what an average C3 Vette would cost, not to mention have a trunk, back seat, and four doors. That's a lot of appeal to a lot of people, whether you're a speed freak like me or someone who can't afford a Prius and understands that they're really not good for the environment anyway, quite a bit worse than driving a solid old car that can run on biodiesel and who's manufacturing impact has been absorbed as of decades ago, whereas nickel is being strip-mined right now to meet the demand for hybrid batteries, and the mines are toxic dead zones after they're exhausted. Just want a reliable, safe car that won't cost more than $3k, now that you've decided you don't want a car payment?
So what do you think, I think if we came up with a kind of 'press kit' like one would for a musical act, and sent it around through the right channels, that we'd eventually hit paydirt. Some write ups of modded W123s from the US and some nice imported pics and vids from Europe to see what they've been turned into on their native soil.
When I finish my E300, I'm going to do an A-Z writeup and photoshoot on it documenting the mods and performance specs. I'll try to peddle it to Diesel Power or some such US mag. I'm hoping that some of these mags are looking for something different to run instead of the same old black smoke and tractor pulls...
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
I've done a couple of US articles/photoshoots for Australian Muscle Car Magazine. I also have a fair number of connections to the truck community.
When I finish my E300, I'm going to do an A-Z writeup and photoshoot on it documenting the mods and performance specs. I'll try to peddle it to Diesel Power or some such US mag. I'm hoping that some of these mags are looking for something different to run instead of the same old black smoke and tractor pulls...
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
I think that Forced did the best thing already. Forced took his MB to the drag strip during a truck event that I am sure was well covered my Diesel Power and some of the other popular magazines. If you build an older MB diesel to surpise and show up at one of the large diesel truck events there is a possibility that you might get some attention.
The diesel truck magazines were actually the ones I was least interested in pursuing. If those magazines knew what was what you'd see a lot more lightweight (for a truck) single cab 2wd pickups with either a 6BT swap or, even better, the Isuzu NPR engine. I can kind of dig the idea of a fast, 7k lb plus dually getting up and going, but if I want a stupidly overweight chassis that will be a pig in anything but a straight line, I still might try something more flyweight, like a 70's Caddy or Centurion
. They're into big trucks, its like diesel power almost seems like a second consideration. Ideally, SCC would get ahold of it. It was great being able to chat with Mike Kojima back when I had my SE-R on the SR20 forums. I like their 'supergeek' approach and they'd completely dig the fundamentals and the whole sleeper approach; for all of the W123s out there, how many have whooped someone's ass at a stoplight? A handful, nothing compared to the millions of cars out there. Hundredth monkey syndrome - show them it can be done, and watch people pick it up. Most people don't want to be a pioneer, which is why Mustangs continue to be popular - it's hardly the best car in the world, but it's a known quantity and everything and anything has already been done to those cars, while with ours, it takes some searching just to find people who've done so much as do a little lowering and add some wheels, which is really nothing in the world of mods, just a beginning step.
I kind of doubt that the OM617 will end up being the motor of choice, but instead later model OMs, TDIs, and NPR engines could be legally swapped anywhere with practically zero hassle - which is way better than doing a gas conversion to a T and still getting shit from the CARB rep. It's one of the reasons people still build 510s, because you can bypass the legality BS and just go for it.
CID Vicious
12-29-2009, 05:29 PM #6I've seen the muscle car mags express interest in diesel cars; Car Craft would probably bite just on the chassis as a motor swap candidate; Grassroots Motorsport would probably bite, especially if one was entered as a $2010 Challenge competitor. Sport Compact Car has toyed with the idea of diesels but they're not much on VWs and like RWD cars. FWIW, the import magazines are getting more open minded, last I checked there was a lot of cars like V8 swapped RX7s getting attention in that scene; even a jaded import nut can't deny the charm of an LS1, all the power you'd ever need in a compact package lighter than most DOHC V6s. If they'll write about American V8s, they'll write about our cars, they just have to know how good they really are. I mean, unless you'd seen one modified, it's easy to pass our cars by as just a better built Cadillac - nice, comfortable, but not the choice for backroad burning. And, frankly, while that seems to be what Mercedes had intended the emphasis to be on, that doesn't mean that they don't deliver the goods. On the other hand, they seem to defy both physics (cars with my 240D's power to weight ratio shouldn't be fun to drive, period) and resale values. Both of which are fine by me.
The diesel truck magazines were actually the ones I was least interested in pursuing. If those magazines knew what was what you'd see a lot more lightweight (for a truck) single cab 2wd pickups with either a 6BT swap or, even better, the Isuzu NPR engine. I can kind of dig the idea of a fast, 7k lb plus dually getting up and going, but if I want a stupidly overweight chassis that will be a pig in anything but a straight line, I still might try something more flyweight, like a 70's Caddy or Centurion . They're into big trucks, its like diesel power almost seems like a second consideration.
Ideally, SCC would get ahold of it. It was great being able to chat with Mike Kojima back when I had my SE-R on the SR20 forums. I like their 'supergeek' approach and they'd completely dig the fundamentals and the whole sleeper approach; for all of the W123s out there, how many have whooped someone's ass at a stoplight? A handful, nothing compared to the millions of cars out there. Hundredth monkey syndrome - show them it can be done, and watch people pick it up. Most people don't want to be a pioneer, which is why Mustangs continue to be popular - it's hardly the best car in the world, but it's a known quantity and everything and anything has already been done to those cars, while with ours, it takes some searching just to find people who've done so much as do a little lowering and add some wheels, which is really nothing in the world of mods, just a beginning step.
I kind of doubt that the OM617 will end up being the motor of choice, but instead later model OMs, TDIs, and NPR engines could be legally swapped anywhere with practically zero hassle - which is way better than doing a gas conversion to a T and still getting shit from the CARB rep. It's one of the reasons people still build 510s, because you can bypass the legality BS and just go for it.
I had a column ("Burnin' Rubber") in Diesel Power magazine starting with the first issue and running out just over a year when their staff writers could take over. It was a lot of fun writing about sanctioned diesel motorsports events, etc.
Towards the end of my tenure at DP, I met Kevin Wilson at an event - he is the man behind Diesel World magazine and he echoed the same sentiments I dealt with at Diesel Power: the feature vehicles need to be really visually appealing to make it onto the printed page. The whole ordeal needs to be at least an 8 or 9 out of 10...not a 6 or 7 like most daily drivers and budget conscious builds. I fought and won a couple of times, however - I got some good running 'farm trucks' piloted by hot shoes into the magazine more than once.
DP is definitely more 8-lug centric, while DW definitely seems open to 4 and 5-lug vehicles.
With all of that behind us - you can bet your bottom dollar that if some diesel rig is created, happens to bear a 3-pointed-star emblem and runs an 11 or 10-second 1/4-mile...it'll get into a magazine.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
12-30-2009, 01:15 PM #7This is a great idea!
I had a column ("Burnin' Rubber") in Diesel Power magazine starting with the first issue and running out just over a year when their staff writers could take over. It was a lot of fun writing about sanctioned diesel motorsports events, etc.
Towards the end of my tenure at DP, I met Kevin Wilson at an event - he is the man behind Diesel World magazine and he echoed the same sentiments I dealt with at Diesel Power: the feature vehicles need to be really visually appealing to make it onto the printed page. The whole ordeal needs to be at least an 8 or 9 out of 10...not a 6 or 7 like most daily drivers and budget conscious builds. I fought and won a couple of times, however - I got some good running 'farm trucks' piloted by hot shoes into the magazine more than once.
DP is definitely more 8-lug centric, while DW definitely seems open to 4 and 5-lug vehicles.
With all of that behind us - you can bet your bottom dollar that if some diesel rig is created, happens to bear a 3-pointed-star emblem and runs an 11 or 10-second 1/4-mile...it'll get into a magazine.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
Quote:The whole ordeal needs to be at least an 8 or 9 out of 10...not a 6 or 7 like most daily drivers and budget conscious builds.Not quite. I've seen some pretty amateurish builds and scruffy looking trucks in DP's articles.
We don't need to be in a full article, even a square in the "Reader's Rides" section would be nice.
ForcedInduction
12-30-2009, 05:35 PM
#8
Quote:The whole ordeal needs to be at least an 8 or 9 out of 10...not a 6 or 7 like most daily drivers and budget conscious builds.Not quite. I've seen some pretty amateurish builds and scruffy looking trucks in DP's articles.
We don't need to be in a full article, even a square in the "Reader's Rides" section would be nice.
Something like a cherry common-rail W211 running 12's or 13's with no smoke would be a GREAT cover story. (insert drooling emoticon here...)
Beers,
Matt
(12-30-2009, 05:35 PM)ForcedInduction Not quite. I've seen some pretty amateurish builds and scruffy looking trucks in DP's articles.
They must have really lowered their standards in the past few years - this certainly wasn't the case in '05ish.
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
12-30-2009, 05:40 PM #9I'm setting the bar high - if we get turned down for a multi-page feature, we'll go from there. We've got connections, now we just need to build something!
Something like a cherry common-rail W211 running 12's or 13's with no smoke would be a GREAT cover story. (insert drooling emoticon here...)
Beers,
Matt
(12-30-2009, 05:35 PM)ForcedInduction Not quite. I've seen some pretty amateurish builds and scruffy looking trucks in DP's articles.
They must have really lowered their standards in the past few years - this certainly wasn't the case in '05ish.
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
Frankly, from what I've seen so far, 1/4 mile performance wouldn't be what I'd lead with. However, with the right (very cheap) mods, you can have a very fun to drive, comfortable, quick and good handling diesel sports sedan. Basically, a MB-built, diesel powered BMW. Just because, as one magazine puts it, 'When MB tries to build a Bimmer, it fails. When BMW tries to build a Benz, it also fails', that we're stuck with the same curse.
SCC and Grassroots are people who appreciate a 'real world driver's car', that 1/4 miles times are great but a 12 second timeslip isn't necessary to burn up a canyon road and get a nice, ear to ear shit eatin' grin going. I've got cut front springs, a cone filter/intake and 205/70/14s, a 3300lb car with two people and a ton of crap in the trunk, and it was still a great canyon runner. You don't need 300+ hp in a tight canyon to go at the the limit - some of those corners you're taking at, like, 35 and it's all you can do to keep your ass in that luxo-bucket.
For the drag strip, we need a dedicated car - stripped, lightened, welded up diff as steep as we can get, and maybe some cut DVs for a demonstration run or two - if the 'big dogs' like smoke, we can give it to 'em, get some attention and see if we can find a shop willing to put some time into getting over this IP hurdle. If we can't make all of the horsepower we want, we need to get as light as possible. That's one of the huge advantages we have over a full sized pickup - you can't get a diesel in a full sized pickup that's worth a damn without having to start out with a 5000lb vehicle. 1700 lbs lighter as delivered from the factory isn't insignificant, regardless of the motor.
Another option might be to swap out the OM for an NPR 3.9 or (dreaming big here) a Duramax. A street legal, back-halved Duramax powered 300D, this one full interior/AC/power everything would make a pretty huge impression. I saw a SN95 Mustang running a Duramax, and aside from fast times at the drag strip, a side benefit was 38mpg highway. However, in California that Mustang would be really hard to make legal. In our cars, it's a non-issue.
Keep in mind that aside from engine development, we also need chassis support. Car Craft and Hot Rod would be interested in a DM powered W123, but they'd also be interested in a Project Blasphemy clone. Car Craft especially, HR seems like it doesn't car about anything that isn't carved out of mirror-polished billet. Car Craft would jump over a car that's as fast as a Camaro yet has a full size trunk and comparatively cavernous back seat, that could drive on the street with a V8 swap without having to so much as see an inspector (no bigger or smaller a deal than hollowing out cats or pulling your IROC's TPI for a four barrel), and one that's still a safe car by today's standards, and something that has the badge cache of a Benz - you could V8 a Cressida too, but no one other than a die hard 'yota nut would care. Even in the beater realm, a W123 is a car many aspire to own, and it's a true classic. Picture a 'man's Beetle' where the millions that were built weren't chopped up into weird kit cars or tossed away like an empty beer can, where the were probably babied for almost all of their 300k+ miles (instead of being abused before they got out of the dealer lot like a factory muscle car), where you could have a running, driving car for less than the parts to convert an old solid axle car to IRS, much less the equipment and know-how to make it work.
In other words, once the value of these cars as an enthusiast's choice is made apparent, we won't have to worry about being the only guys west of Ireland wrenching on these things. Maybe everyone doesn't get all tight in the pants thinking about a V8 powered 123, pure diesel heads; I can understand that. But picture those 'Blasphemers' creating a demand for a company to make some affordable sway bars for our cars, or a coil over kit, etc. Why doesn't Advanced Apapters have anything on the shelf for even our motors, though they're more popular than our cars are for modified rides?
Because of the perception that 'no one is into these cars'. That kept me away for half of a decade, because I can't afford to throw away $$$$ on crap that doesn't work, or that makes me feel better about 'customizing' my car even though I've made it less than it was stock. I like known quantities, like the SBC, and the SBC is a known quantity because of people like the senior Edelbrock who took the time to develop that motor. Without the aftermarket support, the SBC is just another junkyard choice amongst many. We need a Vic Edelbrock. And we need to change the idea that 'no one makes these cars go fast' because it's simply not true.
The difference between our cars and, say, a 240SX, is that the automotive performance community at large has recognized the potential of a 240SX.
CID Vicious
12-30-2009, 06:21 PM #10My personal opinion on MB W123 diesel performance:
Frankly, from what I've seen so far, 1/4 mile performance wouldn't be what I'd lead with. However, with the right (very cheap) mods, you can have a very fun to drive, comfortable, quick and good handling diesel sports sedan. Basically, a MB-built, diesel powered BMW. Just because, as one magazine puts it, 'When MB tries to build a Bimmer, it fails. When BMW tries to build a Benz, it also fails', that we're stuck with the same curse.
SCC and Grassroots are people who appreciate a 'real world driver's car', that 1/4 miles times are great but a 12 second timeslip isn't necessary to burn up a canyon road and get a nice, ear to ear shit eatin' grin going. I've got cut front springs, a cone filter/intake and 205/70/14s, a 3300lb car with two people and a ton of crap in the trunk, and it was still a great canyon runner. You don't need 300+ hp in a tight canyon to go at the the limit - some of those corners you're taking at, like, 35 and it's all you can do to keep your ass in that luxo-bucket.
For the drag strip, we need a dedicated car - stripped, lightened, welded up diff as steep as we can get, and maybe some cut DVs for a demonstration run or two - if the 'big dogs' like smoke, we can give it to 'em, get some attention and see if we can find a shop willing to put some time into getting over this IP hurdle. If we can't make all of the horsepower we want, we need to get as light as possible. That's one of the huge advantages we have over a full sized pickup - you can't get a diesel in a full sized pickup that's worth a damn without having to start out with a 5000lb vehicle. 1700 lbs lighter as delivered from the factory isn't insignificant, regardless of the motor.
Another option might be to swap out the OM for an NPR 3.9 or (dreaming big here) a Duramax. A street legal, back-halved Duramax powered 300D, this one full interior/AC/power everything would make a pretty huge impression. I saw a SN95 Mustang running a Duramax, and aside from fast times at the drag strip, a side benefit was 38mpg highway. However, in California that Mustang would be really hard to make legal. In our cars, it's a non-issue.
Keep in mind that aside from engine development, we also need chassis support. Car Craft and Hot Rod would be interested in a DM powered W123, but they'd also be interested in a Project Blasphemy clone. Car Craft especially, HR seems like it doesn't car about anything that isn't carved out of mirror-polished billet. Car Craft would jump over a car that's as fast as a Camaro yet has a full size trunk and comparatively cavernous back seat, that could drive on the street with a V8 swap without having to so much as see an inspector (no bigger or smaller a deal than hollowing out cats or pulling your IROC's TPI for a four barrel), and one that's still a safe car by today's standards, and something that has the badge cache of a Benz - you could V8 a Cressida too, but no one other than a die hard 'yota nut would care. Even in the beater realm, a W123 is a car many aspire to own, and it's a true classic. Picture a 'man's Beetle' where the millions that were built weren't chopped up into weird kit cars or tossed away like an empty beer can, where the were probably babied for almost all of their 300k+ miles (instead of being abused before they got out of the dealer lot like a factory muscle car), where you could have a running, driving car for less than the parts to convert an old solid axle car to IRS, much less the equipment and know-how to make it work.
In other words, once the value of these cars as an enthusiast's choice is made apparent, we won't have to worry about being the only guys west of Ireland wrenching on these things. Maybe everyone doesn't get all tight in the pants thinking about a V8 powered 123, pure diesel heads; I can understand that. But picture those 'Blasphemers' creating a demand for a company to make some affordable sway bars for our cars, or a coil over kit, etc. Why doesn't Advanced Apapters have anything on the shelf for even our motors, though they're more popular than our cars are for modified rides?
Because of the perception that 'no one is into these cars'. That kept me away for half of a decade, because I can't afford to throw away $$$$ on crap that doesn't work, or that makes me feel better about 'customizing' my car even though I've made it less than it was stock. I like known quantities, like the SBC, and the SBC is a known quantity because of people like the senior Edelbrock who took the time to develop that motor. Without the aftermarket support, the SBC is just another junkyard choice amongst many. We need a Vic Edelbrock. And we need to change the idea that 'no one makes these cars go fast' because it's simply not true.
The difference between our cars and, say, a 240SX, is that the automotive performance community at large has recognized the potential of a 240SX.
GREASY_BEAST
12-31-2009, 11:02 AM #11That would be cool to get a W123 written up! If I were to do a Duramax in a Benz (if it would fit..) it would be in a W126 SDL or maybe a newer SDL. Big engine, big car. How much does the NPR engine weight and how big is it?
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
12-31-2009, 03:00 PM #12How about a Mercedes w114/w115 with a BMW turbo diesel??? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGwBWBGitpA
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
(12-30-2009, 06:21 PM)CID Vicious The difference between our cars and, say, a 240SX, is that the automotive performance community at large has recognized the potential of a 240SX.
Do we really want the automotive performance community to recognize the potential of MB diesels and then start seeking them out?
We have a hard enough time finding parts as it is...nevermind what would happen if everybody and their brother went boneyard shopping for old MB diesel goodies...
If Japanese car tuners are 'Ricers' - will we all be 'Krauts' or 'Bratwursts'?
Biers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
12-31-2009, 03:22 PM #13(12-30-2009, 06:21 PM)CID Vicious The difference between our cars and, say, a 240SX, is that the automotive performance community at large has recognized the potential of a 240SX.
Do we really want the automotive performance community to recognize the potential of MB diesels and then start seeking them out?
We have a hard enough time finding parts as it is...nevermind what would happen if everybody and their brother went boneyard shopping for old MB diesel goodies...
If Japanese car tuners are 'Ricers' - will we all be 'Krauts' or 'Bratwursts'?
Biers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
I'd say that if one could squeeze a 6.3 into the W123, then a D-Max would fit. I could very well be wrong. Not to say it wouldn't be HEAVY, but it'd definitely be a beast with a lot of potential. As a drag-strip car, the D-Max is a slam dunk, but I'm picturing at least 5k involved in getting one to swap in. Even a 6.5l turbo from the old days would be quite neat - only around 250hp, but around 650lb-ft. I've been seeing those motors going for pretty cheap lately, not with a turbo kit though.
I'm not surprised that an SN95 Mustang can swallow a D-Max, the 4.6 mod motor is as big as an old 460 or 454 externally. (Ford engineering - small displacement motor in a big displacement package!). I'd say that if the S class can be avoided, it should be, though, it's just adding weight to the same basic package. If the 123 engine bay can accommodate the swap, its the better choice.
Really, with the Isuzu motor's potential and small packaging, I'd go with that over a D-Max. Keep the handling right where it is (the D-Max turns the W123 into a straight line car, at least in my mental sketchbook) and still have the potential to have wicked power AND higher mpg. To give you an idea, there's guys running around with a full sized pickup with an NPR swap getting better mpg than a VGT'd 300D. For the price of a D-Max you could easily pick up a T56 and a GM adapter kit, along with a turbo upgrade and the little things like a clutch and an exhaust system.
Of course, I shouldn't be too hard on the OM motors, I think they suffer more from a lack of development than a lack of potential. I could see an OM being such an easily tunable beast that there'd be no good reason for a swap at all - but we're not there yet. I will say this: Blasphemy is mostly on the drawing board because, as a guy who's so broke I should ban myself from this and all other automotive forums, a 617a swap and/or manual swap on a 300D, plus upgrading the motor, and then seeing an 18 second quarter in one of the most developed cars I know of wasn't all too encouraging. And it'll be hard to get the 'big dogs' interested in a car that, even with a bunch of mods can get whipped by a stock SOHC VTEC Honda with a cone filter. Not to slag another's efforts, and not to say that those efforts won't pay off a little further down the line, but if we can't, say, match the 1/4 mile time of a stock 80's F-Body or Mustang with a modified OM, we need to look elsewhere, at least for getting attention for our cars.
Our cars are so much of a total package - classic looks, solidly built, excellent handling for the age, comfortable, safe, practical - FAST is what needs to be added to that list. Or we need to bark up the trees where dyno sheets and 1/4 mile timeslips aren't the only performance currency. Some magazines appreciate the fact that not everyone has 5k to blow on a turbo setup or 15k for an all out engine build, and that some people want a car that can bring the kids to school, haul the groceries and still burn down a back road. Oh, and we don't want no $10k+ late model, either, we want to buy it for a decent price and invest in some goodies. We want a ton of them around for spare parts, so oddities like the XR4TI need not apply. Reliable, so that eliminates the Bimmers and Jags. Built like a tank, so that eliminates the Japanese cars.
The W123 is already a dream come true if you don't care at all about acceleration. When the last half of that sentence no longer applies, the world will be waiting.
(12-31-2009, 03:22 PM)HoleshotHolset(12-30-2009, 06:21 PM)CID Vicious The difference between our cars and, say, a 240SX, is that the automotive performance community at large has recognized the potential of a 240SX.
Do we really want the automotive performance community to recognize the potential of MB diesels and then start seeking them out?
We have a hard enough time finding parts as it is...nevermind what would happen if everybody and their brother went boneyard shopping for old MB diesel goodies...
If Japanese car tuners are 'Ricers' - will we all be 'Krauts' or 'Bratwursts'?
Biers,
Matt
Eh, I've thought the same thing, but also consider this - go on Craigslist and look for Honda parts some time. Engines, wheels, suspensions, built shells, all manner of performance parts. The impression that these are cars to buy for as little as possible and then drive into the ground doesn't serve us, either - you'd be surprised at how reluctant people are to scrap a lowly Chevy Vega just because 'it'd make a good V8 swap'.
If people were all that hip, you wouldn't see our monobloc brake calipers on any junkyard car, and all of the PAP cars still had their injection pumps, turbos, vacuum pumps, etc. I'm near LA though, and there's almost a glut of these cars here. I know it's hardly like that everywhere.
Since we drive German tanks, I'd say Panzers would be as good a name as any ;-).
What do they call the Bimmer and VW enthusiasts? Besides, I wouldn't call a clean, low profile modded Civic 'rice' - an automatic D15 with a fart pipe and a 'custom intercooler-look air filter' with a big wing and light up windshield squirters certainly qualifies, though. My Civic had a rattle can paint job but it was still clean looking (I might not be the King of rattle can paint jobs, but I'm still a Great Prince) - shaved emblems, six spoke wheels with black centers and polished lips, had a 2 1/2" exhaust system but wasn't loud. That car was easily as fast as my near stock SE-R, which was a direct match for an Integra Type R in acceleration. Aside from being clean, nice, and lowered, it didn't draw attention to itself, which my SE-R accomplished as well:
![[Image: Picture093.jpg]](http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h151/mabusonline/SE-R/Picture093.jpg)
![[Image: Picture089.jpg]](http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h151/mabusonline/SE-R/Picture089.jpg)
Our cars, even 'tarted up' Euro style still have class. One of the things I like about Project Blasphemy is that I can have a car I'd love to drive every bit as much as hot Camaro, but I can go meet a woman's family for the first time and I don't look like I just tucked my mullet under my trucker hat
. It's still a Benz. Like any other car, the looks at the end are the choice of the owner. Sadly there's probably a 300D running around with 20" chrome wheels and an aluminum wing screwed to the trunklid, with undercarriage neon and enough wattage and speakers in the trunk to provide the front of house for Coachella next year, slow as hell too - personally I don't see that as splashing on my own sense of taste. These cars with a set of 15x7s and the front dropped look soooooo sweet, that old school air shock muscle car look. The only thing keeping me from leaving the 300D like that is that I'd feel like such a poser until it was fast enough to match the stance.
![[Image: Photo101.jpg]](http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h151/mabusonline/Photo101.jpg)
CID Vicious
12-31-2009, 03:52 PM #14The Isuzu 3.9l is an automotive style diesel four-cylinder. Unless it's ridiculously tall it would fit right where an OM would, I think Kiwibacon might have one. Apparently the the stock headgasket starts to leak at something like 60psi, and no need for a Myna. Crossflow head, too. Off the shelf adapters to GM transmissions. Crank right over like gasser, the glow plugs don't even kick in unless you're at 20 degrees or below.
I'd say that if one could squeeze a 6.3 into the W123, then a D-Max would fit. I could very well be wrong. Not to say it wouldn't be HEAVY, but it'd definitely be a beast with a lot of potential. As a drag-strip car, the D-Max is a slam dunk, but I'm picturing at least 5k involved in getting one to swap in. Even a 6.5l turbo from the old days would be quite neat - only around 250hp, but around 650lb-ft. I've been seeing those motors going for pretty cheap lately, not with a turbo kit though.
I'm not surprised that an SN95 Mustang can swallow a D-Max, the 4.6 mod motor is as big as an old 460 or 454 externally. (Ford engineering - small displacement motor in a big displacement package!). I'd say that if the S class can be avoided, it should be, though, it's just adding weight to the same basic package. If the 123 engine bay can accommodate the swap, its the better choice.
Really, with the Isuzu motor's potential and small packaging, I'd go with that over a D-Max. Keep the handling right where it is (the D-Max turns the W123 into a straight line car, at least in my mental sketchbook) and still have the potential to have wicked power AND higher mpg. To give you an idea, there's guys running around with a full sized pickup with an NPR swap getting better mpg than a VGT'd 300D. For the price of a D-Max you could easily pick up a T56 and a GM adapter kit, along with a turbo upgrade and the little things like a clutch and an exhaust system.
Of course, I shouldn't be too hard on the OM motors, I think they suffer more from a lack of development than a lack of potential. I could see an OM being such an easily tunable beast that there'd be no good reason for a swap at all - but we're not there yet. I will say this: Blasphemy is mostly on the drawing board because, as a guy who's so broke I should ban myself from this and all other automotive forums, a 617a swap and/or manual swap on a 300D, plus upgrading the motor, and then seeing an 18 second quarter in one of the most developed cars I know of wasn't all too encouraging. And it'll be hard to get the 'big dogs' interested in a car that, even with a bunch of mods can get whipped by a stock SOHC VTEC Honda with a cone filter. Not to slag another's efforts, and not to say that those efforts won't pay off a little further down the line, but if we can't, say, match the 1/4 mile time of a stock 80's F-Body or Mustang with a modified OM, we need to look elsewhere, at least for getting attention for our cars.
Our cars are so much of a total package - classic looks, solidly built, excellent handling for the age, comfortable, safe, practical - FAST is what needs to be added to that list. Or we need to bark up the trees where dyno sheets and 1/4 mile timeslips aren't the only performance currency. Some magazines appreciate the fact that not everyone has 5k to blow on a turbo setup or 15k for an all out engine build, and that some people want a car that can bring the kids to school, haul the groceries and still burn down a back road. Oh, and we don't want no $10k+ late model, either, we want to buy it for a decent price and invest in some goodies. We want a ton of them around for spare parts, so oddities like the XR4TI need not apply. Reliable, so that eliminates the Bimmers and Jags. Built like a tank, so that eliminates the Japanese cars.
The W123 is already a dream come true if you don't care at all about acceleration. When the last half of that sentence no longer applies, the world will be waiting.
(12-31-2009, 03:22 PM)HoleshotHolset(12-30-2009, 06:21 PM)CID Vicious The difference between our cars and, say, a 240SX, is that the automotive performance community at large has recognized the potential of a 240SX.
Do we really want the automotive performance community to recognize the potential of MB diesels and then start seeking them out?
We have a hard enough time finding parts as it is...nevermind what would happen if everybody and their brother went boneyard shopping for old MB diesel goodies...
If Japanese car tuners are 'Ricers' - will we all be 'Krauts' or 'Bratwursts'?
Biers,
Matt
Eh, I've thought the same thing, but also consider this - go on Craigslist and look for Honda parts some time. Engines, wheels, suspensions, built shells, all manner of performance parts. The impression that these are cars to buy for as little as possible and then drive into the ground doesn't serve us, either - you'd be surprised at how reluctant people are to scrap a lowly Chevy Vega just because 'it'd make a good V8 swap'.
If people were all that hip, you wouldn't see our monobloc brake calipers on any junkyard car, and all of the PAP cars still had their injection pumps, turbos, vacuum pumps, etc. I'm near LA though, and there's almost a glut of these cars here. I know it's hardly like that everywhere.
Since we drive German tanks, I'd say Panzers would be as good a name as any ;-).
What do they call the Bimmer and VW enthusiasts? Besides, I wouldn't call a clean, low profile modded Civic 'rice' - an automatic D15 with a fart pipe and a 'custom intercooler-look air filter' with a big wing and light up windshield squirters certainly qualifies, though. My Civic had a rattle can paint job but it was still clean looking (I might not be the King of rattle can paint jobs, but I'm still a Great Prince) - shaved emblems, six spoke wheels with black centers and polished lips, had a 2 1/2" exhaust system but wasn't loud. That car was easily as fast as my near stock SE-R, which was a direct match for an Integra Type R in acceleration. Aside from being clean, nice, and lowered, it didn't draw attention to itself, which my SE-R accomplished as well:
Our cars, even 'tarted up' Euro style still have class. One of the things I like about Project Blasphemy is that I can have a car I'd love to drive every bit as much as hot Camaro, but I can go meet a woman's family for the first time and I don't look like I just tucked my mullet under my trucker hat
. It's still a Benz. Like any other car, the looks at the end are the choice of the owner. Sadly there's probably a 300D running around with 20" chrome wheels and an aluminum wing screwed to the trunklid, with undercarriage neon and enough wattage and speakers in the trunk to provide the front of house for Coachella next year, slow as hell too - personally I don't see that as splashing on my own sense of taste. These cars with a set of 15x7s and the front dropped look soooooo sweet, that old school air shock muscle car look. The only thing keeping me from leaving the 300D like that is that I'd feel like such a poser until it was fast enough to match the stance.
CID, I hear you bro, I know where you are coming from, I've been there, And I know where this could go cause I've seen it happen in the AMC world. We fought, prayed, and begged for some recognition and aftermarket support and then after many years of not being heard, it happened! Seemingly overnight, we had articles, build-ups, aftermarket parts, you name it. But try to find a decent AMC car to build for a poor man's price now. Us AMCers are now back in the same boat but for a different reason. You alluded to this kind of danger yourself when you noted how expensive 240SXs have become. Even knappy ones. I've been priced out of the very hobby I helped build! It sucks! I've got a hot injected 4.0/4.2 hybrid in my garage and nothing to put it in! I've got a few spare 401s too, same deal, nothing to put them in! (I'll sell the 4.0/4.2 but not the 401s.) The 4.0/4.2 is probably gonna end up in a Jeep but I still would rather put it in a AMC Spirit or AMC Concord (Please note: That's "Concord" not "Concorde", we're talking about a RWD AMC, not a FWD Chrysler.) One of the 401s is gonna end up in my Bricklin.
Even now, I can't find a decent W-124 OM603 car for an affordable price. It's crazy what people want for a 23 year old car that isn't even considered a classic! Meanwhile, a same year W-124 M-103 car in great condition can be had for a song! Please be careful what you wish for. Again, I've been there.
Regards, Eric
(Anybody know where I can score a nice 87 300D for cheap?)
I'm brand new here (my 1st post!) and I don't want to step on any toes.
CID, I hear you bro, I know where you are coming from, I've been there, And I know where this could go cause I've seen it happen in the AMC world. We fought, prayed, and begged for some recognition and aftermarket support and then after many years of not being heard, it happened! Seemingly overnight, we had articles, build-ups, aftermarket parts, you name it. But try to find a decent AMC car to build for a poor man's price now. Us AMCers are now back in the same boat but for a different reason. You alluded to this kind of danger yourself when you noted how expensive 240SXs have become. Even knappy ones. I've been priced out of the very hobby I helped build! It sucks! I've got a hot injected 4.0/4.2 hybrid in my garage and nothing to put it in! I've got a few spare 401s too, same deal, nothing to put them in! (I'll sell the 4.0/4.2 but not the 401s.) The 4.0/4.2 is probably gonna end up in a Jeep but I still would rather put it in a AMC Spirit or AMC Concord (Please note: That's "Concord" not "Concorde", we're talking about a RWD AMC, not a FWD Chrysler.) One of the 401s is gonna end up in my Bricklin.
Even now, I can't find a decent W-124 OM603 car for an affordable price. It's crazy what people want for a 23 year old car that isn't even considered a classic! Meanwhile, a same year W-124 M-103 car in great condition can be had for a song! Please be careful what you wish for. Again, I've been there.
Regards, Eric
(Anybody know where I can score a nice 87 300D for cheap?)
While the sudden popularity might drive up prices for cars, I somehow doubt it would be a complete and total shift like you experienced with AMC. The reason being for that is that AMC's heyday (unless you're looking for a 4x4 Eagle) was late 60's early 70's, so by the time people caught up to the cars as an alternative to the Big Three's muscle cars, most were already off the road and/or relegated to 'classic' status, in other words a weekend car more than someone's daily driver. AMC's were already a rare sight on the road - W123s are, sadly, available in every market I've checked (LA, Chicago and NY) for reasonable prices. (I'd wanted to start shipping clean Cali examples to other locales for profit, but the prices of local examples rendered it unworthy of pursuing).
Our cars were still being made not too long ago (more than a decade past the last AMX), and they represent MB's most successful model. It's their Beetle. Of all of the Benz's still on the road, the 123 still probably represents the bulk of them even though it's been out of production for 25 years. The cars were VERY expensive new and were probably garage kept for many years, only fairly recently did the price slide down to where these things are 'beater' status. The market never showed up for these cars new in this country because almost all of the models sold were diesels and because few people were going to plop down 5k more in early 80's dollars for a 240D (much less a fully loaded 300D) than a new Vette cost and then start throwing expensive parts at it. So the car was always a 'great if you don't care about horsepower' option. I'm sure there have been a few people who built them when they were new and expensive (probably 280Es) but nowadays they're kind of languishing.
I do kind of have an inclination to 'keep a lid on it' and keep all the goodness to myself - after all, for what I want to do, I need very little help from the aftermarket. However, people love the Beetles and you can still find them for nearly nothing, and they were treated with really none of the respect these cars are shown - no one just 'throws away' a Benz or carves it up for a kit car, or uses it for their winter beater to keep their 'good' car looking nice. But I could be wrong, and all of a sudden clapped out 300Ds could become $3k cars.
However, I think the general public will still be going for the more recent models since they come across as more modern cars. The later model diesels just weren't imported over here in huge numbers, though, and many people keep them. The perception of these cars as 'old and expensive' keeps a lot of people away, which is funny when you consider that they might go buy an early 90's Mitsubishi instead since it's 'Japanese and newer'. Joke's on them.
I saw a 124 wagon from the late 80's with a 60X going for 2k not too long ago. Turbodiesel, auto, looked like a clean car that'd been sitting. Even though the tags were so far out it was pretty much unregisterable in California, I almost got my boss to grab it as an investment anyway. But yeah, 2k for a car that would probably cost a grand to register and that'd been sitting for at least a couple of years.
I haven't gotten to drive a 124, but I don't know that I'd pay the premium for one over a W123 - I got my 83 300D turbo for 800 bucks with chrome bundts, halfway decent paint and interior, nice stereo, everything more or less works, running and driving with some minor 800 dollar car problems. As a matter of fact I'm still waiting to see a 123 with a 60X/five speed, I'm sure they're out there but I haven't seen one so far.
The NPR motor kind of kills my enthusiasm for the MB engines, though, considering the .9l extra over our largest non-rod-bending OM, liner-style engine (meaning you can rebuild one without a machine shop), truly bulletproof rotator...and that you can get the engines for considerably cheaper than a late model OM, and that they can be adapted to GM transmissions. I believe the forum is www.4btswaps.com, there's an NPR section. One guy's got a late 60's F150 running Police Interceptor front suspension and brakes, IRS, and a twin turbo'd NPR into a T56. Of course, he works at a fabrication shop but other than the IRS the rest of the list didn't come across to me as major surgery (the Crown Vic suspension apparently bolts up). I'm mostly interested in the NPR as a swap candidate for an RV, so I quit going there after I did my initial research (damned auto porn!). I believe Kiwibacon has one, if he'd like to chime in on the feasibility of an NPR/123.
Here's from the forum sticky:
Cylinders: 4
Injection: direct
Injection pump: Bosch/Zexel type A inline pump on RHS (drivers perspective)
Bore: 4.0157in
Stroke 4.6457in
Valves: 8
Inlet manifold seperate casting RHS (drivers perspective).
Exhaust LHS (drivers perspective).
Weight: Approx 770lbs turbo. 744lbs NA (source Isuzu spec sheet from 1988)
Dimensions NA: 31.3in long x 27.8in wide x 29.7in tall.
Bellhousings: SAE #3 automotive (rare), SAE #3 industrial (rare), Landrover LT85/95 (rare), Isuzu truck pattern (most common).
Starting aids: Glowplugs and excess fuel.
Electrical: 12v in US market, 24v in rest of the world.
Turbochargers: IHI RHB6 (early), Garrett T25 wastegated (early), Garrett T25 freefloat with T3 flange or Garrett T25 wastegated with T3 flange.
Alternator: 12v or 24v depending on market, vacuum pump on rear. Located high on LHS (drivers perspective).
AC Compressor: if fitted below alternator on LHS (drivers perspective).
Power output NA: Varies but up to 104.6hp @ 3200rpm.
Torque output NA: Varies but up to 194ftlbs @ 1900rpm.
Power output Turbo: varies but up to 140.8hp @ approx 3000rpm.
Torque output Turbo: Varies but up to 243.4ftlbs @ approx 1800rpm.
Boost: Approx 13psi stock.
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7348
I'm posting a question thread asking if anyone knows if this has already been done.
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12233
CID Vicious
01-01-2010, 05:39 PM #17Hey 400Eric, welcome to the forum.
While the sudden popularity might drive up prices for cars, I somehow doubt it would be a complete and total shift like you experienced with AMC. The reason being for that is that AMC's heyday (unless you're looking for a 4x4 Eagle) was late 60's early 70's, so by the time people caught up to the cars as an alternative to the Big Three's muscle cars, most were already off the road and/or relegated to 'classic' status, in other words a weekend car more than someone's daily driver. AMC's were already a rare sight on the road - W123s are, sadly, available in every market I've checked (LA, Chicago and NY) for reasonable prices. (I'd wanted to start shipping clean Cali examples to other locales for profit, but the prices of local examples rendered it unworthy of pursuing).
Our cars were still being made not too long ago (more than a decade past the last AMX), and they represent MB's most successful model. It's their Beetle. Of all of the Benz's still on the road, the 123 still probably represents the bulk of them even though it's been out of production for 25 years. The cars were VERY expensive new and were probably garage kept for many years, only fairly recently did the price slide down to where these things are 'beater' status. The market never showed up for these cars new in this country because almost all of the models sold were diesels and because few people were going to plop down 5k more in early 80's dollars for a 240D (much less a fully loaded 300D) than a new Vette cost and then start throwing expensive parts at it. So the car was always a 'great if you don't care about horsepower' option. I'm sure there have been a few people who built them when they were new and expensive (probably 280Es) but nowadays they're kind of languishing.
I do kind of have an inclination to 'keep a lid on it' and keep all the goodness to myself - after all, for what I want to do, I need very little help from the aftermarket. However, people love the Beetles and you can still find them for nearly nothing, and they were treated with really none of the respect these cars are shown - no one just 'throws away' a Benz or carves it up for a kit car, or uses it for their winter beater to keep their 'good' car looking nice. But I could be wrong, and all of a sudden clapped out 300Ds could become $3k cars.
However, I think the general public will still be going for the more recent models since they come across as more modern cars. The later model diesels just weren't imported over here in huge numbers, though, and many people keep them. The perception of these cars as 'old and expensive' keeps a lot of people away, which is funny when you consider that they might go buy an early 90's Mitsubishi instead since it's 'Japanese and newer'. Joke's on them.
I saw a 124 wagon from the late 80's with a 60X going for 2k not too long ago. Turbodiesel, auto, looked like a clean car that'd been sitting. Even though the tags were so far out it was pretty much unregisterable in California, I almost got my boss to grab it as an investment anyway. But yeah, 2k for a car that would probably cost a grand to register and that'd been sitting for at least a couple of years.
I haven't gotten to drive a 124, but I don't know that I'd pay the premium for one over a W123 - I got my 83 300D turbo for 800 bucks with chrome bundts, halfway decent paint and interior, nice stereo, everything more or less works, running and driving with some minor 800 dollar car problems. As a matter of fact I'm still waiting to see a 123 with a 60X/five speed, I'm sure they're out there but I haven't seen one so far.
The NPR motor kind of kills my enthusiasm for the MB engines, though, considering the .9l extra over our largest non-rod-bending OM, liner-style engine (meaning you can rebuild one without a machine shop), truly bulletproof rotator...and that you can get the engines for considerably cheaper than a late model OM, and that they can be adapted to GM transmissions. I believe the forum is www.4btswaps.com, there's an NPR section. One guy's got a late 60's F150 running Police Interceptor front suspension and brakes, IRS, and a twin turbo'd NPR into a T56. Of course, he works at a fabrication shop but other than the IRS the rest of the list didn't come across to me as major surgery (the Crown Vic suspension apparently bolts up). I'm mostly interested in the NPR as a swap candidate for an RV, so I quit going there after I did my initial research (damned auto porn!). I believe Kiwibacon has one, if he'd like to chime in on the feasibility of an NPR/123.
Here's from the forum sticky:
Cylinders: 4
Injection: direct
Injection pump: Bosch/Zexel type A inline pump on RHS (drivers perspective)
Bore: 4.0157in
Stroke 4.6457in
Valves: 8
Inlet manifold seperate casting RHS (drivers perspective).
Exhaust LHS (drivers perspective).
Weight: Approx 770lbs turbo. 744lbs NA (source Isuzu spec sheet from 1988)
Dimensions NA: 31.3in long x 27.8in wide x 29.7in tall.
Bellhousings: SAE #3 automotive (rare), SAE #3 industrial (rare), Landrover LT85/95 (rare), Isuzu truck pattern (most common).
Starting aids: Glowplugs and excess fuel.
Electrical: 12v in US market, 24v in rest of the world.
Turbochargers: IHI RHB6 (early), Garrett T25 wastegated (early), Garrett T25 freefloat with T3 flange or Garrett T25 wastegated with T3 flange.
Alternator: 12v or 24v depending on market, vacuum pump on rear. Located high on LHS (drivers perspective).
AC Compressor: if fitted below alternator on LHS (drivers perspective).
Power output NA: Varies but up to 104.6hp @ 3200rpm.
Torque output NA: Varies but up to 194ftlbs @ 1900rpm.
Power output Turbo: varies but up to 140.8hp @ approx 3000rpm.
Torque output Turbo: Varies but up to 243.4ftlbs @ approx 1800rpm.
Boost: Approx 13psi stock.
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7348
I'm posting a question thread asking if anyone knows if this has already been done.
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12233
How is it everybody dosnt realize the potential of these cars...its all here now that we have Dervtuning and Tomnik supplying us with larger elements for our pumps..we finally have the speed/power factor, along with the already apperant comfort, style, handling, reliability, and the Mercedes Benz name to back it up.
..Now i can see both sides of this idea as far as these cars getting popular go's.
It would be way cool to keep these cars at a grassroots/underground kinda of level, so that way parts are cheap and plentiful in the yards, performance parts are still custom one-off mods, the community within these diesels stays tight knit, knowledgable, and friendly. Kind of like the golden days of hot rodding back in the 30s and 40s.
It would also be cool to see more of these modded Mercedes diesels driving the streets, starting car clubs and going to car shows, articles and write-ups in magazines. Specifically built performance products for suspension and drivetrain...but of course with the Mercedes name behind the car im sure these parts would without a doubt be expensive as shiit. The more people wanting the car means finding them in the yards is going to become more and more rare.
and i could see it easily becoming like that..like the AMC's.
That would SUCK if i couldnt afford to own my w123 anymore..and i dont think i want that to happen..even though i would still like to see some increase in popularity....
Im honestly surprised theres not some finnish magazine devoted to om60x engines
I think if one of us were to send in our cars to a magazine it should be Rudolf! As soon as he gets it how he wants it of course. I belive that car would have some serious potential getting into a mag.
The car is SUPER clean inside and out, so im sure once its in tippity toppty shape it will be astounding. I think a magazine would definetly bite.
Especially with some 16inch monoblocks, fresh paint, euro lights, lowered 2inches, and maybe some Lorinser bumpers and side skirts..or 500series bumpers and skirts!
1987 300D: EGR Delete, ARV Delete, Cold Air Intake...
With how many of these cars there are on the road i wonder how there arnt more of them in magazines with things how they are.
How is it everybody dosnt realize the potential of these cars...its all here now that we have Dervtuning and Tomnik supplying us with larger elements for our pumps..we finally have the speed/power factor, along with the already apperant comfort, style, handling, reliability, and the Mercedes Benz name to back it up.
..Now i can see both sides of this idea as far as these cars getting popular go's.
It would be way cool to keep these cars at a grassroots/underground kinda of level, so that way parts are cheap and plentiful in the yards, performance parts are still custom one-off mods, the community within these diesels stays tight knit, knowledgable, and friendly. Kind of like the golden days of hot rodding back in the 30s and 40s.
It would also be cool to see more of these modded Mercedes diesels driving the streets, starting car clubs and going to car shows, articles and write-ups in magazines. Specifically built performance products for suspension and drivetrain...but of course with the Mercedes name behind the car im sure these parts would without a doubt be expensive as shiit. The more people wanting the car means finding them in the yards is going to become more and more rare.
and i could see it easily becoming like that..like the AMC's.
That would SUCK if i couldnt afford to own my w123 anymore..and i dont think i want that to happen..even though i would still like to see some increase in popularity....
Im honestly surprised theres not some finnish magazine devoted to om60x engines
I think if one of us were to send in our cars to a magazine it should be Rudolf! As soon as he gets it how he wants it of course. I belive that car would have some serious potential getting into a mag.
The car is SUPER clean inside and out, so im sure once its in tippity toppty shape it will be astounding. I think a magazine would definetly bite.
Especially with some 16inch monoblocks, fresh paint, euro lights, lowered 2inches, and maybe some Lorinser bumpers and side skirts..or 500series bumpers and skirts!
1987 300D: EGR Delete, ARV Delete, Cold Air Intake...
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
10-01-2010, 02:39 PM #19Hey now! My '72 GM turns great. All it took was some Eibach springs and good shocks.
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
The first one is in the magazines project cars section. I guess they will be doing a w123 project car wich is already enough of a reason for me to subscribe!
The seconed one was in the readers rides section. It was a blue, bumperless, lowered on steelies 280E with a welded up diff.
TOO COOL!
The magazine also features some really cool rides. Its definetly one of my new favorites!!
http://retrocarsmag.com/
1987 300D: EGR Delete, ARV Delete, Cold Air Intake...
In this months issue of Modified Classics Retro Cars magazine, i found two w123s!
The first one is in the magazines project cars section. I guess they will be doing a w123 project car wich is already enough of a reason for me to subscribe!
The seconed one was in the readers rides section. It was a blue, bumperless, lowered on steelies 280E with a welded up diff.
TOO COOL!
The magazine also features some really cool rides. Its definetly one of my new favorites!!
http://retrocarsmag.com/
1987 300D: EGR Delete, ARV Delete, Cold Air Intake...
(10-08-2010, 02:33 PM)winmutt Mercedes Enthusiast would be the place I would look at.
One of the many i would consider definetly.
But it seems that magazine focuses more on stock or restored to original cars. Correct me if im wrong, i dont subscribe to that magazine, but i do try to look at them in the book store as often as possible.
1987 300D: EGR Delete, ARV Delete, Cold Air Intake...
(10-08-2010, 02:33 PM)winmutt Mercedes Enthusiast would be the place I would look at.
One of the many i would consider definetly.
But it seems that magazine focuses more on stock or restored to original cars. Correct me if im wrong, i dont subscribe to that magazine, but i do try to look at them in the book store as often as possible.
1987 300D: EGR Delete, ARV Delete, Cold Air Intake...
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
Mercedes Enthusiast always has an article on some crazy SOB like us and many times its diesel. They could do one on the "Super Turbo Diesel Crowd" and show some pics of cars from everywhere. Dunno, its just nice to know there's nutters in the UK too.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(10-08-2010, 03:34 PM)winmutt Mercedes Enthusiast always has an article on some crazy SOB like us and many times its diesel. They could do one on the "Super Turbo Diesel Crowd" and show some pics of cars from everywhere. Dunno, its just nice to know there's nutters in the UK too.
Damn..maybe i need to subscribe..
1987 300D: EGR Delete, ARV Delete, Cold Air Intake...
(10-08-2010, 03:34 PM)winmutt Mercedes Enthusiast always has an article on some crazy SOB like us and many times its diesel. They could do one on the "Super Turbo Diesel Crowd" and show some pics of cars from everywhere. Dunno, its just nice to know there's nutters in the UK too.
Damn..maybe i need to subscribe..
1987 300D: EGR Delete, ARV Delete, Cold Air Intake...
It's on page 28. If I can remember I'll scan it in.
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
There's an article on the 300D and it's "unusual five-cylinder diesel engine" in Vol. 39 No. 35 Sept. 16, 2010 of Old Cars Weekly News & marketplace
It's on page 28. If I can remember I'll scan it in.
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
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