om606 tuning
om606 tuning
01-02-2010, 09:52 PM
#1
want too buy a om606 engine,i want about 400-500 hp from this engine, where du send the dieselpump? is this engine durable for this output?
many other things that should / must be replaced?
What turbo too use?
thanks
nofun racing
01-02-2010, 09:52 PM #1Hello, new on this forum, an wonder on something,
want too buy a om606 engine,i want about 400-500 hp from this engine, where du send the dieselpump? is this engine durable for this output?
many other things that should / must be replaced?
What turbo too use?
thanks
01-02-2010, 10:21 PM
#2
The 606 is capable of that power output, put you're talking a race motor more than a street motor. I have no idea about the durability of said motor at that power level, but considering that it's about 3x the original output, durability is going to go downhill. Period. Mercedes could have put these engines out with serious power but they wanted durability and mileage, so that's the way they were tuned. Somewhere in the middle would be an ideal compromise.
Cost no option and without regard to reliability, you could do far worse in the diesel world, especially in the 3L and under category. You have a better starting point than most of us do with a 61X. Get ahold of Myna in Finland and get a cost for their pump mod, pick your turbo and let us know how it goes.
CID Vicious
01-02-2010, 10:21 PM #2Being in Europe, you have better options than we do.
The 606 is capable of that power output, put you're talking a race motor more than a street motor. I have no idea about the durability of said motor at that power level, but considering that it's about 3x the original output, durability is going to go downhill. Period. Mercedes could have put these engines out with serious power but they wanted durability and mileage, so that's the way they were tuned. Somewhere in the middle would be an ideal compromise.
Cost no option and without regard to reliability, you could do far worse in the diesel world, especially in the 3L and under category. You have a better starting point than most of us do with a 61X. Get ahold of Myna in Finland and get a cost for their pump mod, pick your turbo and let us know how it goes.
01-03-2010, 06:43 AM
#3
Anything more than ~300hp is going to require significant internal strengthening.
ForcedInduction
01-03-2010, 06:43 AM
#3
The Finns spend in the neighborhood of $10,000 to get 500hp from a 606. That involves a Myna injection pump, custom connecting rods, heavy head porting, custom exhaust header, a large turbo, a large intercooler, stronger transmission internals and various little "inside secrets" I'm sure they tell nobody about since they race their cars.
Anything more than ~300hp is going to require significant internal strengthening.
01-03-2010, 06:51 AM
#4
Send pun on Mynä-Diesel. I have on OM605 466hp and its a daily driver.
Holset Super HX40 is good for 400hp and spools nice on 606.
I have Master Power kompressor 65mm and turbine 69mm.
And buy a original turboengine. If engine is good shape you dont need do anything else it just bolt good pump and big turbo it.
OM606 on 400hp is good on street use not only race.
Send pun on Mynä-Diesel. I have on OM605 466hp and its a daily driver.
Holset Super HX40 is good for 400hp and spools nice on 606.
I have Master Power kompressor 65mm and turbine 69mm.
And buy a original turboengine. If engine is good shape you dont need do anything else it just bolt good pump and big turbo it.
01-04-2010, 03:44 PM
#5
(01-03-2010, 06:51 AM)jeemu OM606 on 400hp is good on street use not only race.
Send pun on Mynä-Diesel. I have on OM605 466hp and its a daily driver.
Holset Super HX40 is good for 400hp and spools nice on 606.
I have Master Power kompressor 65mm and turbine 69mm.
And buy a original turboengine. If engine is good shape you dont need do anything else it just bolt good pump and big turbo it.
Jeemu, could this be possible on an om613 (3.2 cdi)
(01-03-2010, 06:51 AM)jeemu OM606 on 400hp is good on street use not only race.
Send pun on Mynä-Diesel. I have on OM605 466hp and its a daily driver.
Holset Super HX40 is good for 400hp and spools nice on 606.
I have Master Power kompressor 65mm and turbine 69mm.
And buy a original turboengine. If engine is good shape you dont need do anything else it just bolt good pump and big turbo it.
Jeemu, could this be possible on an om613 (3.2 cdi)
01-04-2010, 04:42 PM
#6
(01-04-2010, 03:44 PM)jurmmWhat? Take 400hp?(01-03-2010, 06:51 AM)jeemu OM606 on 400hp is good on street use not only race.
Send pun on Mynä-Diesel. I have on OM605 466hp and its a daily driver.
Holset Super HX40 is good for 400hp and spools nice on 606.
I have Master Power kompressor 65mm and turbine 69mm.
And buy a original turboengine. If engine is good shape you dont need do anything else it just bolt good pump and big turbo it.
Jeemu, could this be possible on an om613 (3.2 cdi)
(01-04-2010, 03:44 PM)jurmmWhat? Take 400hp?(01-03-2010, 06:51 AM)jeemu OM606 on 400hp is good on street use not only race.
Send pun on Mynä-Diesel. I have on OM605 466hp and its a daily driver.
Holset Super HX40 is good for 400hp and spools nice on 606.
I have Master Power kompressor 65mm and turbine 69mm.
And buy a original turboengine. If engine is good shape you dont need do anything else it just bolt good pump and big turbo it.
Jeemu, could this be possible on an om613 (3.2 cdi)
01-04-2010, 04:45 PM
#7
ForcedInduction
01-04-2010, 04:45 PM
#7
The IDI and CDI engines are completely different. Running on Diesel is the only thing they really have in common.
01-04-2010, 06:00 PM
#8
(01-04-2010, 04:45 PM)ForcedInduction The IDI and CDI engines are completely different. Running on Diesel is the only thing they really have in common.That is right. Internals these cdi engines is heavyer than om60x engines but those engines havent anything else same than both run diesel.
01-04-2010, 09:35 PM
#9
(01-04-2010, 06:00 PM)jeemu(01-04-2010, 04:45 PM)ForcedInduction The IDI and CDI engines are completely different. Running on Diesel is the only thing they really have in common.That is right. Internals these cdi engines is heavyer than om60x engines but those engines havent anything else same than both run diesel.
When you say heavier, do you mean stronger?
Jeemu, could this be possible on an om613 (3.2 cdi)
What? Take 400hp?
Can it?
(01-04-2010, 06:00 PM)jeemu(01-04-2010, 04:45 PM)ForcedInduction The IDI and CDI engines are completely different. Running on Diesel is the only thing they really have in common.That is right. Internals these cdi engines is heavyer than om60x engines but those engines havent anything else same than both run diesel.
When you say heavier, do you mean stronger?
Jeemu, could this be possible on an om613 (3.2 cdi)
What? Take 400hp?
Can it?
01-04-2010, 09:48 PM
#10
ForcedInduction
01-04-2010, 09:48 PM
#10
I've seen that a 2.0L CDI can only make about 250hp before it couldn't flow any more air with a single turbo to make more power. That means a 3.2L should be capable of around 375hp before needing compound turbos. Can the engine and drivetrain take it? I don't know, but I'm sure you'll find out.
01-05-2010, 10:45 AM
#11
(01-04-2010, 09:48 PM)ForcedInduction I've seen that a 2.0L CDI can only make about 250hp before it couldn't flow any more air with a single turbo to make more power. That means a 3.2L should be capable of around 375hp before needing compound turbos. Can the engine and drivetrain take it? I don't know, but I'm sure you'll find out.Thin here is taken 200cdi (2.15ltr) 270hp so 320cdi (3.2ltr)
can take over 400hp, but what i know that dont come easy. Need plenty time, money and knowledge.
(01-04-2010, 09:48 PM)ForcedInduction I've seen that a 2.0L CDI can only make about 250hp before it couldn't flow any more air with a single turbo to make more power. That means a 3.2L should be capable of around 375hp before needing compound turbos. Can the engine and drivetrain take it? I don't know, but I'm sure you'll find out.Thin here is taken 200cdi (2.15ltr) 270hp so 320cdi (3.2ltr)
can take over 400hp, but what i know that dont come easy. Need plenty time, money and knowledge.
01-05-2010, 03:42 PM
#12
As jeemu said, original turbo 606 is good for around 400hp without opening the engine. The internals are strong enough. Mine is as it left the factory ~180k miles ago, no problems so far with 388hp.
Single turbo was problem because a VNT turbo was used. A single big Holset can supply enough air for even 320CDI, but is there any sense.. those don't even rev as high up as OM60x. But for sure you can get around 100hp/liter. The biggest problem (afaik) is finding injectors that flow enough for high hp AND run nicely on part throttle/idle.
As jeemu said, original turbo 606 is good for around 400hp without opening the engine. The internals are strong enough. Mine is as it left the factory ~180k miles ago, no problems so far with 388hp.
01-05-2010, 04:16 PM
#13
(01-05-2010, 03:42 PM)muuris Single turbo was problem because a VNT turbo was used. A single big Holset can supply enough air for even 320CDI, but is there any sense.. those don't even rev as high up as OM60x. But for sure you can get around 100hp/liter. The biggest problem (afaik) is finding injectors that flow enough for high hp AND run nicely on part throttle/idle.
As jeemu said, original turbo 606 is good for around 400hp without opening the engine. The internals are strong enough. Mine is as it left the factory ~180k miles ago, no problems so far with 388hp.
What turbo you use, and pump is electrical, or mechanical?
G300TD(OM606.964) & 250GD(OM605.960)Trophy raid
(01-05-2010, 03:42 PM)muuris Single turbo was problem because a VNT turbo was used. A single big Holset can supply enough air for even 320CDI, but is there any sense.. those don't even rev as high up as OM60x. But for sure you can get around 100hp/liter. The biggest problem (afaik) is finding injectors that flow enough for high hp AND run nicely on part throttle/idle.
As jeemu said, original turbo 606 is good for around 400hp without opening the engine. The internals are strong enough. Mine is as it left the factory ~180k miles ago, no problems so far with 388hp.
What turbo you use, and pump is electrical, or mechanical?
G300TD(OM606.964) & 250GD(OM605.960)Trophy raid
01-06-2010, 03:27 PM
#15
Someone who knows how much myna takes to fix the diesel pump?
kompresion what should I go for?
Holseth turbo as it is best to use? hx45 or hx50
nofun racing
01-06-2010, 03:27 PM #15thanks guys, considering buying om606 fa W124 (without turbo) believe it is the best for me, when the pistons to rods replaced with some custom, the top being delivered to my friend www.voldenracing.no for porting, nothing should be done when everything is up?
Someone who knows how much myna takes to fix the diesel pump?
kompresion what should I go for?
Holseth turbo as it is best to use? hx45 or hx50
01-06-2010, 06:04 PM
#16
(01-06-2010, 03:27 PM)nofun racing thanks guys, considering buying om606 fa W124 (without turbo) believe it is the best for me, when the pistons to rods replaced with some custom, the top being delivered to my friend www.voldenracing.no for porting, nothing should be done when everything is up?Not recommend on N/A engine to make a ST.
Someone who knows how much myna takes to fix the diesel pump?
kompresion what should I go for?
Holseth turbo as it is best to use? hx45 or hx50
Rods are weak. I have build one ST engine on N/A and that is broken as well.
I had standard pistons and H-Profil rods. Pistons last ok but piston pin not.
That is 26mm in N/A and 28mm in tbo engine. I dynod 466hp and block was only thing what s not broken.
(01-06-2010, 03:27 PM)nofun racing thanks guys, considering buying om606 fa W124 (without turbo) believe it is the best for me, when the pistons to rods replaced with some custom, the top being delivered to my friend www.voldenracing.no for porting, nothing should be done when everything is up?Not recommend on N/A engine to make a ST.
Someone who knows how much myna takes to fix the diesel pump?
kompresion what should I go for?
Holseth turbo as it is best to use? hx45 or hx50
Rods are weak. I have build one ST engine on N/A and that is broken as well.
I had standard pistons and H-Profil rods. Pistons last ok but piston pin not.
That is 26mm in N/A and 28mm in tbo engine. I dynod 466hp and block was only thing what s not broken.
01-06-2010, 06:16 PM
#17
Attached Files
Image(s)ForcedInduction
01-06-2010, 06:16 PM
#17
Thats right. Unless you plan to tear it apart and replace all the internals, the non-turbo engines should be avoided for power/performance applications.
Attached Files
Image(s)
01-06-2010, 06:41 PM
#18
(01-06-2010, 06:16 PM)ForcedInduction Thats right. Unless you plan to tear it apart and replace all the internals, the non-turbo engines should be avoided for power/performance applications.Those are my pictures
. I have now tbo internals.![[Image: img2327958.jpg]](http://kuvablogi.com/nayta/thmb/img2327958.jpg)
Here is one picture where is h-profil, tbo and N/A rod
That H-Profil is a Parner what i use before those and pistons broke.
Rod in the middle is om605/6 tbo original. I use those
Last is 605/6 N/A rods.
Here is some photos on piston pins on tbo vs N/A
tbo on left and N/A on the right
![[Image: img2417083.jpg]](http://kuvablogi.com/nayta/thmb/img2417083.jpg)
![[Image: img2417084.jpg]](http://kuvablogi.com/nayta/thmb/img2417084.jpg)
When i weighted those so tbo pin weight 248g and N/A 151g
And tbo piston weight 563g and N/A piston 521g
This post was last modified: 01-06-2010, 07:08 PM by jeemu.
(01-06-2010, 06:16 PM)ForcedInduction Thats right. Unless you plan to tear it apart and replace all the internals, the non-turbo engines should be avoided for power/performance applications.Those are my pictures
. I have now tbo internals. Here is one picture where is h-profil, tbo and N/A rod
That H-Profil is a Parner what i use before those and pistons broke.
Rod in the middle is om605/6 tbo original. I use those
Last is 605/6 N/A rods.
Here is some photos on piston pins on tbo vs N/A
tbo on left and N/A on the right
When i weighted those so tbo pin weight 248g and N/A 151g
And tbo piston weight 563g and N/A piston 521g
01-07-2010, 11:45 AM
#19
(01-06-2010, 03:27 PM)nofun racing Someone who knows how much myna takes to fix the diesel pump?
kompresion what should I go for?
Prepare yourself for around 1200 eur for the pump.
No need to alter the compression ratio, unless you are running serious boost (++3 bars). The head gasket and cold starts will also be issues then
400 hp comes with as little boost as 1,5 bars, although there will be lots of smoke. Up from there the required boost per gained hp (with increase of injection) rate is quite different; so you definitely can't get 560 hp with 2,5 bars..
(01-06-2010, 03:27 PM)nofun racing Someone who knows how much myna takes to fix the diesel pump?
kompresion what should I go for?
Prepare yourself for around 1200 eur for the pump.
No need to alter the compression ratio, unless you are running serious boost (++3 bars). The head gasket and cold starts will also be issues then
400 hp comes with as little boost as 1,5 bars, although there will be lots of smoke. Up from there the required boost per gained hp (with increase of injection) rate is quite different; so you definitely can't get 560 hp with 2,5 bars..
01-07-2010, 01:46 PM
#20
(01-05-2010, 03:42 PM)muuris The biggest problem (afaik) is finding injectors that flow enough for high hp AND run nicely on part throttle/idle.
Man - what I'd give to see someone really mess around with a 3.2L I6 CDI.
The common-rail 5.9L Cummins ISBe (and GM/Isuzu 6.6L Duramax) is capable of running very smooth at idle and low boost/low RPM with highly modified injector nozzles. The CDI engines share more in common with the common-rail Cummins ISBe's than the OM60x - so I'd venture to guess that they'd take well to modifications in a similar manner...provided the ECM didn't flake out from trying to get a good idle with so much fuel on tap.
It's downright amazing how smooth the ISBe/Duramax runs even with 1200hp (at the wheels) when running a few shots of N2O. 800hp on fuel alone is pretty common. Keep in mind the internals on a B-series Cummins are very stout.
The beauty of common-rail is that you don't really have to modify the high pressure fuel pump for more fuel - just add another belt driven unit as pump timing is unimportant.
Attached is a picture of ATS' 2nd belt-driven CP3 installed on a 6.6L Duramax V8.
Cheers,
Matt
Attached Files
Image(s)'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
01-07-2010, 01:46 PM #20(01-05-2010, 03:42 PM)muuris The biggest problem (afaik) is finding injectors that flow enough for high hp AND run nicely on part throttle/idle.
Man - what I'd give to see someone really mess around with a 3.2L I6 CDI.
The common-rail 5.9L Cummins ISBe (and GM/Isuzu 6.6L Duramax) is capable of running very smooth at idle and low boost/low RPM with highly modified injector nozzles. The CDI engines share more in common with the common-rail Cummins ISBe's than the OM60x - so I'd venture to guess that they'd take well to modifications in a similar manner...provided the ECM didn't flake out from trying to get a good idle with so much fuel on tap.
It's downright amazing how smooth the ISBe/Duramax runs even with 1200hp (at the wheels) when running a few shots of N2O. 800hp on fuel alone is pretty common. Keep in mind the internals on a B-series Cummins are very stout.
The beauty of common-rail is that you don't really have to modify the high pressure fuel pump for more fuel - just add another belt driven unit as pump timing is unimportant.
Attached is a picture of ATS' 2nd belt-driven CP3 installed on a 6.6L Duramax V8.
Cheers,
Matt
Attached Files
Image(s)'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
01-10-2010, 10:26 AM
#21
I`m in norway too, and I have a `95 E300D, and wanted to convert it to turbo for use in my `91 300TDT, but It`s cheaper to get a 606A-engine from sweden og Germany, or maybe britain...
If you get a such engine from a W210, you have to change the pump, and turbo(WG actuator) to use in an older car.
I`m only thinking about getting 250+ stabile HP on the engine, but I allways like the opportunity for more power....
OM606 N/A have`nt got oil-sprayed pistons, neither a place to mount it, no Natrium-filled EX-valves, and weaker pistons and rods, the crank is the same, the rods are the same on 603/606 Turbo, but the pistons must be from 605/606 turbo-engine because of the pockets for valves and "nozzle".
I`m in norway too, and I have a `95 E300D, and wanted to convert it to turbo for use in my `91 300TDT, but It`s cheaper to get a 606A-engine from sweden og Germany, or maybe britain...
If you get a such engine from a W210, you have to change the pump, and turbo(WG actuator) to use in an older car.
I`m only thinking about getting 250+ stabile HP on the engine, but I allways like the opportunity for more power....
01-10-2010, 01:58 PM
#22
(01-10-2010, 10:26 AM)Einar OM606 N/A have`nt got oil-sprayed pistons, neither a place to mount it, no Natrium-filled EX-valves, and weaker pistons and rods, the crank is the same, the rods are the same on 603/606 Turbo, but the pistons must be from 605/606 turbo-engine because of the pockets for valves and "nozzle".All 606 engines is oil nozzles for pistons. And 606 not had natrium valves. 603 and 606 rods not same.
I`m in norway too, and I have a `95 E300D, and wanted to convert it to turbo for use in my `91 300TDT, but It`s cheaper to get a 606A-engine from sweden og Germany, or maybe britain...
If you get a such engine from a W210, you have to change the pump, and turbo(WG actuator) to use in an older car.
I`m only thinking about getting 250+ stabile HP on the engine, but I allways like the opportunity for more power....
(01-10-2010, 10:26 AM)Einar OM606 N/A have`nt got oil-sprayed pistons, neither a place to mount it, no Natrium-filled EX-valves, and weaker pistons and rods, the crank is the same, the rods are the same on 603/606 Turbo, but the pistons must be from 605/606 turbo-engine because of the pockets for valves and "nozzle".All 606 engines is oil nozzles for pistons. And 606 not had natrium valves. 603 and 606 rods not same.
I`m in norway too, and I have a `95 E300D, and wanted to convert it to turbo for use in my `91 300TDT, but It`s cheaper to get a 606A-engine from sweden og Germany, or maybe britain...
If you get a such engine from a W210, you have to change the pump, and turbo(WG actuator) to use in an older car.
I`m only thinking about getting 250+ stabile HP on the engine, but I allways like the opportunity for more power....
01-11-2010, 06:14 PM
#24
(01-11-2010, 04:44 PM)INC Why all Highpower OM606/605 engines use only mechanical pumps?
It's easier to install and tune. No need to install ECUs and all wirings to control electrical pump. Of course if you have the knowledge and tools it's much simpler to tune electrical pump with laptop, also cheaper.
Mercedes-Benz has implemented lot of safety measure in their ECU's, it has always been real pita to crack those things.
With mechanical pump you just send it to some pump shop (pp-diesel, mynä etc) and request them to install larger elements. That's it and you get around 200-500hp
- MB w126 300SD Superturbo (US) -83, Mods: OM617A with custom head work, Master Power Turbo 802332, PP-Diesel custom 7mm IP, China intercooler, KKD-Motorsport exhaust manifold, DIY intake manifold, Coolmist Waterinjection, DIY Supermeter display/datalog with PLX Wideband Lambda, Siekkinen custom 722.3 autotrans, Elbe Performance LSD, Green Filter cold air intake, straight 3" exhaust with two dual 2.5" outputs
- MB r129 500SL AMG (JDM) -94
Full AMG bodykit, full JDM features, modified ECU and exhaust
- MB w123 250E-TT (JDM) -85
Full 1JZ-GTE twinturbo conversion, full aircon, custom china cooler, custom IC-pipes, custom sport recaro interior, custom 3-piece JDM rims
(01-11-2010, 04:44 PM)INC Why all Highpower OM606/605 engines use only mechanical pumps?
It's easier to install and tune. No need to install ECUs and all wirings to control electrical pump. Of course if you have the knowledge and tools it's much simpler to tune electrical pump with laptop, also cheaper.
Mercedes-Benz has implemented lot of safety measure in their ECU's, it has always been real pita to crack those things.
With mechanical pump you just send it to some pump shop (pp-diesel, mynä etc) and request them to install larger elements. That's it and you get around 200-500hp
- MB w126 300SD Superturbo (US) -83, Mods: OM617A with custom head work, Master Power Turbo 802332, PP-Diesel custom 7mm IP, China intercooler, KKD-Motorsport exhaust manifold, DIY intake manifold, Coolmist Waterinjection, DIY Supermeter display/datalog with PLX Wideband Lambda, Siekkinen custom 722.3 autotrans, Elbe Performance LSD, Green Filter cold air intake, straight 3" exhaust with two dual 2.5" outputs
- MB r129 500SL AMG (JDM) -94
Full AMG bodykit, full JDM features, modified ECU and exhaust
- MB w123 250E-TT (JDM) -85
Full 1JZ-GTE twinturbo conversion, full aircon, custom china cooler, custom IC-pipes, custom sport recaro interior, custom 3-piece JDM rims
01-12-2010, 12:50 AM
#25
Since the computer only controls the rack position with a solenoid, its much easier to get rid of the computer and use a pump with a mechanical governor that does the same thing. No cost to tune since its just a few screws to turn.
The real advantage to computer control is the fuel curve can automatically adjust itself exactly to the airflow going through the engine, smoke from over-fueling can be eliminated.
This post was last modified: 01-12-2010, 12:54 AM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
01-12-2010, 12:50 AM
#25
With a computer you're still limited by the physical plunger size. So in addition to the cost of the mechanical pump upgrade you have to spend money to tune the computer too.
Since the computer only controls the rack position with a solenoid, its much easier to get rid of the computer and use a pump with a mechanical governor that does the same thing. No cost to tune since its just a few screws to turn.
The real advantage to computer control is the fuel curve can automatically adjust itself exactly to the airflow going through the engine, smoke from over-fueling can be eliminated.
01-12-2010, 10:26 AM
#26
In Finland it's mostly because of emissions. 1992 and newer cars can't be altered, even changing the air filter to different type may cause a rejection in annual inspection. When these newer OM605/6 turbo engines are installed in older bodies, it's much less complicated to use the mechanical pump than to adapt the ECU to older car.
02-18-2010, 10:10 PM
#28
where in america can you get these injection pumps tuned? specifically in the northeast. i'm in jersey and i have a 2.5 turbo i'm just looking to make it a little bit faster. does anyobody know of any place that will do that? i have a local german car shop in my town, but do you think he would have the know how to tune an injection pump the right way?
Users browsing this thread:
23 Guest(s)
23 Guest(s)
Users browsing this thread:
23 Guest(s)
23 Guest(s)