Project: Blasphemy
Project: Blasphemy
I was thinking, then, what to do with the shell that would result.
Later, I was thinking about how I'd never had a Small Block Chevy powered car to romp around in, and ten years from now, who knows if you'll even be able to.
Put 2 and 2 together, and you get Project Blasphemy.
I've been around hot rods and all since I was born - my dad was a motorhead, and while most kids going to elementary school in the 80's were getting dropped off in a Jap compact, I was getting dropped off in the 65 Nova SS that my mom, really, had no business driving (don't ask, I still get flashbacks). It's part of me, good or bad, the Small Block Chevy.
Since old Chevys are getting expensive (especially when you consider that I've had a few modified Civics and an SE-R and I know a thing or two about handling, and there's quite a bit of upgrading to get those old cars to dance), and, theoretically I'd be stuck with this 300D with no powertrain, and all of that paperwork saying it's a Diesel and thus wouldn't need to be smogged or inspected here in Kalifornia, it just makes a lot of sense to me. But what's in it for you guys? This is a diesel forum, after all, and here I am talking like a Gasshole
.Well, for one thing, since many are in the planning stages in their projects and most are midway (I don't hear, so far, anyone claiming they'd found the 'far-point' of the 617a), it would be useful to have an apples-to-apples comparison with what, like American cars or not, is one of the world's performance motor benchmarks; the Chevy 350. They're cheap, plentiful, easy to work on, I know for a fact that they've already been swapped into these cars and earlier ones, and you can usually find a TH350 to back it up for almost nothing, and it makes the swap real easy. (Usually, I'm all for a 5 or (God, are you listening to me?
) 6 speed manual, but this has to be a cheap project for me.)Any 350 can be made to make at least 250 hp and about 300 lb ft with stock components available in any junkyard, even with smog heads and a shit cam. Since I'm not made of money, I'll try to find the best motor for the money I can, hopefully a lightly modded (Holley carb and an intake, HEI, basic stuff) used 350 can be found for about 500 bucks, but a Quadrajet would work too. I have a TPI intake sitting around (found it on the sidewalk on trash day, how f-n sweet is that?) that I could eventually work towards installing, and if that happens, anyone seen that Hot Rod (or Car Craft) article a few years back - black 80's Firebird, stock 70's 350 truck block with TPI on it, twin turbos (stock Volvo 740), something like 650 hp - I remember him saying something like 'you can feel the mains squirm a little bit under full boost, but nothing's broken yet!' Wasn't even a four-bolt block. Really, if I wanted to go full-tilt, or even halfway, there's no way the OM617a will be able to keep up, but it would be fun to see how far it would go. (Anyone out there with deep pockets to prove me wrong?)
Basically, it comes down to this (for you guys - I have my own reasons) - eventually, it gets up and running, dyno'd, and taken to the track for a 1/4 mile time. I'm thinking it shouldn't be hard to get 13's. And you guys (and eventually me) will get to say 'it might be a Diesel, but it gets up and goes like it's got a V8 under the hood, and I can prove it!'
Some of you, I'm sure, are here for other reasons than undying loyalty to all things Diesel, let Gas be damned, and if you're just after pure performance, I'm sure that this swap will put a grin on your face - the 300D weighs about as much as a Camaro (less than a new one!) and might even weigh less with the SBC than the diesel (don't forget the injection pump, beefier block and just about everything else, and the 50lbs of turbo hanging off of the passenger side - curious, anyone got an assembled weight of a 617a to compare?). Handling would be nearly identical, even assuming the SBC was slightly heavier (which can be fixed in any number of ways, from aluminum heads to a LSX swap).
I plan on keeping it stock looking on the outside except for the wheels, I'm going to find some conservative later model wheels in about 16's or so to fit. Paint it white and keep the exhaust quiet and John Law won't have a clue. Even if, you could always throw some appropriate (or look-alike) parts on it and say, 'well, yes sir, it's a Chevy, but it's a 6.5l Diesel swap, I swear!' And who knows, if I've had my fun for awhile and it becomes a hassle, the mounts and most of the rest would indeed facilitate a 6.5, and while it's not the refined piece the MB motor is, they move large trucks very well, and in this car, well, lets just say it'd be interesting. Might need to convert it to a 9 inch for that, though.
There's a thread on another site about this here. For those who really think 'it should say all M-B', to quote one guy with a 500SEL donor car, 'MAN there's a lot of wires!' Screw that - Holley/Q-Jet, run like what? Three wires for the ignition? Adapt the MB shifter to the TH350, fab up some mounts? NEXT!
"Corvette engine may be faster, more reliable, cheaper, easier to maintain, easier to find parts, BUT .......... Nah!"
Here's a pic of the guy who put the 500SEL motor into the W123:
![[Image: 101802d1161107615-blkchambers-280ce-5-0-img_2569.jpg]](http://www.benzworld.org/forums/attachments/w123-e-ce-d-cd-td/101802d1161107615-blkchambers-280ce-5-0-img_2569.jpg)
I'm looking for a picture of the 350 in a W123, I saw a previous gen sedan with it done for sale a few years back, I should have acted like I had the cash and test drove it
.However that motor is quite a bit larger (on the outside, at least
) than a SBC, but it does illustrate the point that one would fit.
CID Vicious
05-29-2009, 04:53 PM #1Well, I am glad to have found a place where 'Mercedes Turbodiesel Performance' isn't a new idea, mostly because I can't really afford to be much of a test mule. As the dough factor allows, I'll be looking for a 300D turbo (hopefully with a blown trans) to swap the motor into my 240D manual.
I was thinking, then, what to do with the shell that would result.
Later, I was thinking about how I'd never had a Small Block Chevy powered car to romp around in, and ten years from now, who knows if you'll even be able to.
Put 2 and 2 together, and you get Project Blasphemy.
I've been around hot rods and all since I was born - my dad was a motorhead, and while most kids going to elementary school in the 80's were getting dropped off in a Jap compact, I was getting dropped off in the 65 Nova SS that my mom, really, had no business driving (don't ask, I still get flashbacks). It's part of me, good or bad, the Small Block Chevy.
Since old Chevys are getting expensive (especially when you consider that I've had a few modified Civics and an SE-R and I know a thing or two about handling, and there's quite a bit of upgrading to get those old cars to dance), and, theoretically I'd be stuck with this 300D with no powertrain, and all of that paperwork saying it's a Diesel and thus wouldn't need to be smogged or inspected here in Kalifornia, it just makes a lot of sense to me. But what's in it for you guys? This is a diesel forum, after all, and here I am talking like a Gasshole .
Well, for one thing, since many are in the planning stages in their projects and most are midway (I don't hear, so far, anyone claiming they'd found the 'far-point' of the 617a), it would be useful to have an apples-to-apples comparison with what, like American cars or not, is one of the world's performance motor benchmarks; the Chevy 350. They're cheap, plentiful, easy to work on, I know for a fact that they've already been swapped into these cars and earlier ones, and you can usually find a TH350 to back it up for almost nothing, and it makes the swap real easy. (Usually, I'm all for a 5 or (God, are you listening to me? ) 6 speed manual, but this has to be a cheap project for me.)
Any 350 can be made to make at least 250 hp and about 300 lb ft with stock components available in any junkyard, even with smog heads and a shit cam. Since I'm not made of money, I'll try to find the best motor for the money I can, hopefully a lightly modded (Holley carb and an intake, HEI, basic stuff) used 350 can be found for about 500 bucks, but a Quadrajet would work too. I have a TPI intake sitting around (found it on the sidewalk on trash day, how f-n sweet is that?) that I could eventually work towards installing, and if that happens, anyone seen that Hot Rod (or Car Craft) article a few years back - black 80's Firebird, stock 70's 350 truck block with TPI on it, twin turbos (stock Volvo 740), something like 650 hp - I remember him saying something like 'you can feel the mains squirm a little bit under full boost, but nothing's broken yet!' Wasn't even a four-bolt block. Really, if I wanted to go full-tilt, or even halfway, there's no way the OM617a will be able to keep up, but it would be fun to see how far it would go. (Anyone out there with deep pockets to prove me wrong?)
Basically, it comes down to this (for you guys - I have my own reasons) - eventually, it gets up and running, dyno'd, and taken to the track for a 1/4 mile time. I'm thinking it shouldn't be hard to get 13's. And you guys (and eventually me) will get to say 'it might be a Diesel, but it gets up and goes like it's got a V8 under the hood, and I can prove it!'
Some of you, I'm sure, are here for other reasons than undying loyalty to all things Diesel, let Gas be damned, and if you're just after pure performance, I'm sure that this swap will put a grin on your face - the 300D weighs about as much as a Camaro (less than a new one!) and might even weigh less with the SBC than the diesel (don't forget the injection pump, beefier block and just about everything else, and the 50lbs of turbo hanging off of the passenger side - curious, anyone got an assembled weight of a 617a to compare?). Handling would be nearly identical, even assuming the SBC was slightly heavier (which can be fixed in any number of ways, from aluminum heads to a LSX swap).
I plan on keeping it stock looking on the outside except for the wheels, I'm going to find some conservative later model wheels in about 16's or so to fit. Paint it white and keep the exhaust quiet and John Law won't have a clue. Even if, you could always throw some appropriate (or look-alike) parts on it and say, 'well, yes sir, it's a Chevy, but it's a 6.5l Diesel swap, I swear!' And who knows, if I've had my fun for awhile and it becomes a hassle, the mounts and most of the rest would indeed facilitate a 6.5, and while it's not the refined piece the MB motor is, they move large trucks very well, and in this car, well, lets just say it'd be interesting. Might need to convert it to a 9 inch for that, though.
There's a thread on another site about this here. For those who really think 'it should say all M-B', to quote one guy with a 500SEL donor car, 'MAN there's a lot of wires!' Screw that - Holley/Q-Jet, run like what? Three wires for the ignition? Adapt the MB shifter to the TH350, fab up some mounts? NEXT!
"Corvette engine may be faster, more reliable, cheaper, easier to maintain, easier to find parts, BUT .......... Nah!"
Here's a pic of the guy who put the 500SEL motor into the W123:
I'm looking for a picture of the 350 in a W123, I saw a previous gen sedan with it done for sale a few years back, I should have acted like I had the cash and test drove it
.However that motor is quite a bit larger (on the outside, at least
) than a SBC, but it does illustrate the point that one would fit.
ForcedInduction
05-29-2009, 09:13 PM
#2
350 swaps are dime for two dozen. If you're going to go that route at least do something new, a 502 or 6.5L diesel for example.
(05-29-2009, 09:13 PM)ForcedInduction 350 swaps are dime for two dozen. If you're going to go that route at least do something new, a 502 or 6.5L diesel for example.
There are a couple of older Merc's around here with 350 swaps. Those cars are freakin' awesome. Drift car on the cheap. Diesels are a little cooler in my book however. I say do what you want. Take pictures along the way! If you need some help welding up the rear diff. let me know. I've got it down.
Lincolnlock
05-30-2009, 01:15 AM #3(05-29-2009, 09:13 PM)ForcedInduction 350 swaps are dime for two dozen. If you're going to go that route at least do something new, a 502 or 6.5L diesel for example.
There are a couple of older Merc's around here with 350 swaps. Those cars are freakin' awesome. Drift car on the cheap. Diesels are a little cooler in my book however. I say do what you want. Take pictures along the way! If you need some help welding up the rear diff. let me know. I've got it down.
) and he said what I like to hear - these were designed (and perhaps one of the last cars to be so designed before planned obsolescence became the new business model) to be permanent cars, and are simple enough for me to keep running indefinitely. Plus, I have an interest in SVO, which no gas motor is going to accomplish. The SBC offers almost infinite possibilities for whatever kind of power you might want - the 5.3l LS truck motor that gets 20 mpg in a 5k lb tall bodied pickup would likely get 30 or better in a properly setup 123 (while having 300 hp/lb ft on tap). I have always wanted to build a 302 clone, actually - not the Ford, the original Z/28 road race motor. All that's really standing in the way is the 750 bucks for Jesel/Comp Cams shaft rocker assembly, plus a pile of other cash. A mean point (and a mean motor) is a properly set up 327, like a 350 that likes to rev more with a hybrid Italian/American exhaust note, like a 350's mixed with something with a Prancing Horse on the valve cover.
There's even a company offering (stupidly expensive) 32v SOHC aluminum heads that allow something like 8k plus RPM with no exotic valve components.
There's the 383, cheapest big power motor out there, big torque, been done to death but there's a good reason for it. Then there's an 'inverted 383', a 400 block with the 350's crank, better bore/stroke ratio for wanting to rev and way-huge bores. And that's all just naturally aspirated :-).
Frankly, I know the SBC has been done but I don't have any interest in the MB gas motors - too much expense and headache. I admire the guy who did it all MB, but it's more "MB enthusisast" and less "21st Century Hot Rodder", which would be more my style. I had to look farther afield than an old Chevy, although if I all of a sudden become able I'd sure love to get a 9C1 Caprice with an LT1, first gen Camaro (even a 75-79 Nova) and get it to handle as good as it accelerates, but that's money. Better to just swap a V8 into a capable chassis. The MB offers a unique opportunity here in Kalifornia and as a sleeper as even the 617a cars aren't fast by anyone's standards in stock form, and it's only seemingly occurred in recent years to modify them. The MB gas motors, you'd have to really want one of those to go through the headache, and while they're great and all I'd rather build my own, and it's not hard to eclipse a 6.3 with a 383 for less money, even EFI'd.
Other cars which would easily work for pure driving enjoyment that I'm looking at for SBC swaps are the early 80's RWD Celica GTs (engine mounts, exhaust, and a 500 dollar bellhousing/clutch kit, and a Chevy II oil pan are all you need to install a SBC in this car, five-linked solid axle for dual purpose use as a drag/road car, no driveshaft mods required), and the second gen RX7, which has spawned it's own scene of hybrids of the most un-Prius sort. The Celica formula also works for second-gen Supras, same slick 5 speed gearbox that takes 400 lb ft of torque (vs about 250 for a WC T5) but with a proper multilink rear suspension, about 800 lbs heavier than the Celica, though.
None of those cars would be able to slink by the cops unnoticed though, nor carry 3 passengers and a trunk full of gear in comfort though, they don't have the suspension design like the 123 that allows for easy coil-cutting the right way instead of buying springs, things like that. Plus, these cars strike me as almost Bizarro-world old American cars. The 123 in particular is like an idealized Checker Cab, refined and nice but still 'Taxi Tough'.
Anyway, I'm looking into this but I have quite a bit of work to do on the 240D as it is right now just to keep it running (you'd either laugh or cry at how I've been driving around a ~185k mile D for four months, but sadly it's been necessary - any other time in my life and all of the basics would be more than covered). I happen to like a jolt of reality in my car-fantasy brew, and I like the practicality of this idea, as it would be a way to keep old MBs running for a few more decades (along with some RWD Jap motors, Supra sixes would be especially good I'd think). Unfortunately the reality is that these were designed as luxury cars and the 'speed' versions even more so, lots of little things that constantly need attention unless you've got a manual windows 240D with regualar HVAC (that still doesn't work anyway). Granted, neither a Chevy or a Toyota motor swapped in would be trouble-free but the Chevy can be worked on by any knuckle-dragging redneck - something you couldn't say about a 3.5, 4.5, 5.0, 6.3, etc. The Toyota would be for those who need something a little more high-tech and want a six. Hard to beat the prices of Jap Junkyard motors with ~40k on them.
I'll update this as I can. Feel free to discuss, if anyone knows of any companies that make stuff for this swap I'm all ears but I'll likely want to fab up my own mounts - so I can eventually maybe make them for others to use.
(05-29-2009, 09:13 PM)ForcedInduction 350 swaps are dime for two dozen. If you're going to go that route at least do something new, a 502 or 6.5L diesel for example.
Well, the 350 could be seen as a bridge to that 6.5l, for example. If it'll live behind a 350 it has a chance of dealing with a turbo'd 6.5l. I used to drive a shorty school bus and those engines have f-n amazing torque. The sticker from the bus factory said it was tuned for 250hp...and 650lb-ft of torque! Frankly I think it'd shatter any stock MB pumpkin from that era, assuming it could even hook! I think it'd need a 12 bolt or 9 inch rear (cheap way to go is the 8.8 Ford rear, which is really a copy of the 12 bolt anyway).
I've been against big blocks since I was a kid, I could equal the power of a 502 for less cost by going with some junkyard turbos and the EFI manifold I already have. There's an awful lot of room and inlets available for turbo placement, I've found
. Might have to ditch the fog lights and put up some stone-catchers in their place if I go with that. Big blocks would be cool if I was a drag only kind of guy, but I'm not - a big block V8 is what people think of when they think of a 500lb 4mpg torque beast that doesn't want to rev and makes the car stupidly nose heavy. Check out STS Turbo - there's a way to turbo a 123 (probably mean deleting the spare tire well) out back, and the 'boosted' pipe to the throttle body running under the car acts as an intercooler, and all the extra weight is in the rear of the car, not the front. I just need to make friends with a guy who does exhaust . SBC's can be built to rev (NASCAR (I hate making references to that) V8's rev to about 9000 rpm in full race tilt with 358 cubes), they're light compared to a lot of motors (5.0l Fords are lighter still, but they also split in half around 450hp with a stock block), are dirt cheap, common as hell and they make every damn thing imaginable for it. Not the best reference for sure, but they even did an ill-advised diesel with it (I wonder if there's an aftermarket solution to their weakness from the hot rod section - block filling, cap girdle, rods, crank?). With the hood closed and the throttle whacked open I'm not going to care, frankly
. If I went with a 'cooler' engine, even an LS, it simply couldn't get done - cost and complexity vs. actual results. Remember, my initial goal is a swapped in stockish SBC with abut 250 hp - not the hardest target to hit, even with a 305 (which I'd probably pass over in favor of anything except a 265 or a 307). Forced Induction, where are you located? I just moved near Palmdale, CA, and while it looks like you could be kinda local, the pics I've seen could be from anywhere in the Southwest.
CID Vicious
05-30-2009, 02:28 PM #4Ideally, I want to do both. The V8 car is for fun, the diesel is my keeper. I worked with a guy who was factory trained at the time these cars came out (tales of jumping new, stick 240Ds around this road in Connecticut ) and he said what I like to hear - these were designed (and perhaps one of the last cars to be so designed before planned obsolescence became the new business model) to be permanent cars, and are simple enough for me to keep running indefinitely. Plus, I have an interest in SVO, which no gas motor is going to accomplish.
The SBC offers almost infinite possibilities for whatever kind of power you might want - the 5.3l LS truck motor that gets 20 mpg in a 5k lb tall bodied pickup would likely get 30 or better in a properly setup 123 (while having 300 hp/lb ft on tap). I have always wanted to build a 302 clone, actually - not the Ford, the original Z/28 road race motor. All that's really standing in the way is the 750 bucks for Jesel/Comp Cams shaft rocker assembly, plus a pile of other cash. A mean point (and a mean motor) is a properly set up 327, like a 350 that likes to rev more with a hybrid Italian/American exhaust note, like a 350's mixed with something with a Prancing Horse on the valve cover.
There's even a company offering (stupidly expensive) 32v SOHC aluminum heads that allow something like 8k plus RPM with no exotic valve components.
There's the 383, cheapest big power motor out there, big torque, been done to death but there's a good reason for it. Then there's an 'inverted 383', a 400 block with the 350's crank, better bore/stroke ratio for wanting to rev and way-huge bores. And that's all just naturally aspirated :-).
Frankly, I know the SBC has been done but I don't have any interest in the MB gas motors - too much expense and headache. I admire the guy who did it all MB, but it's more "MB enthusisast" and less "21st Century Hot Rodder", which would be more my style. I had to look farther afield than an old Chevy, although if I all of a sudden become able I'd sure love to get a 9C1 Caprice with an LT1, first gen Camaro (even a 75-79 Nova) and get it to handle as good as it accelerates, but that's money. Better to just swap a V8 into a capable chassis. The MB offers a unique opportunity here in Kalifornia and as a sleeper as even the 617a cars aren't fast by anyone's standards in stock form, and it's only seemingly occurred in recent years to modify them. The MB gas motors, you'd have to really want one of those to go through the headache, and while they're great and all I'd rather build my own, and it's not hard to eclipse a 6.3 with a 383 for less money, even EFI'd.
Other cars which would easily work for pure driving enjoyment that I'm looking at for SBC swaps are the early 80's RWD Celica GTs (engine mounts, exhaust, and a 500 dollar bellhousing/clutch kit, and a Chevy II oil pan are all you need to install a SBC in this car, five-linked solid axle for dual purpose use as a drag/road car, no driveshaft mods required), and the second gen RX7, which has spawned it's own scene of hybrids of the most un-Prius sort. The Celica formula also works for second-gen Supras, same slick 5 speed gearbox that takes 400 lb ft of torque (vs about 250 for a WC T5) but with a proper multilink rear suspension, about 800 lbs heavier than the Celica, though.
None of those cars would be able to slink by the cops unnoticed though, nor carry 3 passengers and a trunk full of gear in comfort though, they don't have the suspension design like the 123 that allows for easy coil-cutting the right way instead of buying springs, things like that. Plus, these cars strike me as almost Bizarro-world old American cars. The 123 in particular is like an idealized Checker Cab, refined and nice but still 'Taxi Tough'.
Anyway, I'm looking into this but I have quite a bit of work to do on the 240D as it is right now just to keep it running (you'd either laugh or cry at how I've been driving around a ~185k mile D for four months, but sadly it's been necessary - any other time in my life and all of the basics would be more than covered). I happen to like a jolt of reality in my car-fantasy brew, and I like the practicality of this idea, as it would be a way to keep old MBs running for a few more decades (along with some RWD Jap motors, Supra sixes would be especially good I'd think). Unfortunately the reality is that these were designed as luxury cars and the 'speed' versions even more so, lots of little things that constantly need attention unless you've got a manual windows 240D with regualar HVAC (that still doesn't work anyway). Granted, neither a Chevy or a Toyota motor swapped in would be trouble-free but the Chevy can be worked on by any knuckle-dragging redneck - something you couldn't say about a 3.5, 4.5, 5.0, 6.3, etc. The Toyota would be for those who need something a little more high-tech and want a six. Hard to beat the prices of Jap Junkyard motors with ~40k on them.
I'll update this as I can. Feel free to discuss, if anyone knows of any companies that make stuff for this swap I'm all ears but I'll likely want to fab up my own mounts - so I can eventually maybe make them for others to use.
(05-29-2009, 09:13 PM)ForcedInduction 350 swaps are dime for two dozen. If you're going to go that route at least do something new, a 502 or 6.5L diesel for example.
Well, the 350 could be seen as a bridge to that 6.5l, for example. If it'll live behind a 350 it has a chance of dealing with a turbo'd 6.5l. I used to drive a shorty school bus and those engines have f-n amazing torque. The sticker from the bus factory said it was tuned for 250hp...and 650lb-ft of torque! Frankly I think it'd shatter any stock MB pumpkin from that era, assuming it could even hook! I think it'd need a 12 bolt or 9 inch rear (cheap way to go is the 8.8 Ford rear, which is really a copy of the 12 bolt anyway).
I've been against big blocks since I was a kid, I could equal the power of a 502 for less cost by going with some junkyard turbos and the EFI manifold I already have. There's an awful lot of room and inlets available for turbo placement, I've found
. Might have to ditch the fog lights and put up some stone-catchers in their place if I go with that. Big blocks would be cool if I was a drag only kind of guy, but I'm not - a big block V8 is what people think of when they think of a 500lb 4mpg torque beast that doesn't want to rev and makes the car stupidly nose heavy. Check out STS Turbo - there's a way to turbo a 123 (probably mean deleting the spare tire well) out back, and the 'boosted' pipe to the throttle body running under the car acts as an intercooler, and all the extra weight is in the rear of the car, not the front. I just need to make friends with a guy who does exhaust . SBC's can be built to rev (NASCAR (I hate making references to that) V8's rev to about 9000 rpm in full race tilt with 358 cubes), they're light compared to a lot of motors (5.0l Fords are lighter still, but they also split in half around 450hp with a stock block), are dirt cheap, common as hell and they make every damn thing imaginable for it. Not the best reference for sure, but they even did an ill-advised diesel with it (I wonder if there's an aftermarket solution to their weakness from the hot rod section - block filling, cap girdle, rods, crank?). With the hood closed and the throttle whacked open I'm not going to care, frankly
. If I went with a 'cooler' engine, even an LS, it simply couldn't get done - cost and complexity vs. actual results. Remember, my initial goal is a swapped in stockish SBC with abut 250 hp - not the hardest target to hit, even with a 305 (which I'd probably pass over in favor of anything except a 265 or a 307). Forced Induction, where are you located? I just moved near Palmdale, CA, and while it looks like you could be kinda local, the pics I've seen could be from anywhere in the Southwest.
GREASY_BEAST
05-30-2009, 06:12 PM #5Freakin' awesome! I've been waiting for someone to document a 350 swap! Someone said a 302 Ford would go in easier, but I'd rather do the SBC, personally. I'm not sure what you are going to have to do about the steering gear... The stock placement of the steering box might have to go... Maybe it fits, who knows. Also, the MB diesel oil pan is a weirdo as you know.. Good luck, keep us posted!
keepin' it all MB! yeah, so what? 30 wires and I get fuel injection, CELs, etc. oh, and its all aluminum, so it weighs less than my 2.4L and manual trans!
still I love to see V8 swaps into old mercs whether you keep it real (MB) or small block it'!
1976 W115 medium red/tan 240D (undergoing M117 heart transplant)
1989 BMW E30 327iC SETA 5MT
1987 white/black 190D Turbo Diesel - Recaro 16V seats, Monoblocks, 11PSI.
2009 white/black C63 ///AMG
1987 BMW E30 325E M50B25NV 24V swap 5MT. 5 lug.
1999 white/grey ML430
1991 BMW E30 318i 5MT (Beater)
1990 BMW E34 525i 5MT
1997 red/black/black SL600
I also would be interested for some specific measurements, I have a similar hair up my butt, but I am keeping my 190 TurboDiesel and swapping in a MB 5.5l 16V V8 and trans from a 89' 560 SEL into my 76' 240D (W115)
keepin' it all MB! yeah, so what? 30 wires and I get fuel injection, CELs, etc. oh, and its all aluminum, so it weighs less than my 2.4L and manual trans!
still I love to see V8 swaps into old mercs whether you keep it real (MB) or small block it'!
1976 W115 medium red/tan 240D (undergoing M117 heart transplant)
1989 BMW E30 327iC SETA 5MT
1987 white/black 190D Turbo Diesel - Recaro 16V seats, Monoblocks, 11PSI.
2009 white/black C63 ///AMG
1987 BMW E30 325E M50B25NV 24V swap 5MT. 5 lug.
1999 white/grey ML430
1991 BMW E30 318i 5MT (Beater)
1990 BMW E34 525i 5MT
1997 red/black/black SL600
-Putting a Ford Windsor, Cleveland, or M would be much easier because of the front oil sump.
-I don't think a stock Ford 8.8 is as strong as the a stock GM 12 bolt. But with a Rear End Cover Girdle and 31-spline axles it is stronger and yet still be cheaper.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
05-31-2009, 01:51 AM #7This is a good project I'll keep tabs on.
-Putting a Ford Windsor, Cleveland, or M would be much easier because of the front oil sump.
-I don't think a stock Ford 8.8 is as strong as the a stock GM 12 bolt. But with a Rear End Cover Girdle and 31-spline axles it is stronger and yet still be cheaper.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
The 289/302 is a lighter engine than the SBC by some but ask a Mustang guy why they have 'Ford Motorsports' blocks in the first place - NA or forced induction, over 450 (some would say more like 425) hp/tq and the block is prone to cracking down the centerline. Having even this horsepower level is a distant dream right now but the Chevy doesn't have this problem. I think with a low-profile cap and rotor (used on TPI's anyway, come to think) you'd be able to move the Chevy almost as far back as the Ford. And I just ain't a Ford guy.
Little side story, my cousin's an ace heavy body guy and painter back east, into Mustangs. We're kind of a Chevy family and he doesn't really like other Fords, but he has a thing for the Fox 5.0s. He was in the driveway of the house cussing up a storm, and I found out it was because he couldn't get the hatch open on the Mustang. He takes the body and interiors apart of every make and model car you can think of for a living, and this is frustrating him that he can't get his hatch open.
"I just don't know what it is, man, it was fine and now neither the key or the hatch release button work. F***, I just don't know what it is."
Being a smart ass, I waited a second and said, "Hey, I think I know what the problem is."
"What? What is it?" He looked like he thought I'd really figured it out. I had him hooked.
So I just pointed, and smiled. At the blue oval on the hatch.
"There it is, look, you've got these things all over your car - this thing is f***ed!"
But hell man, someone probably has the same story in photonegative, pointing to a bow tie on a Camaro and saying the same thing. Honestly, if you're a Ford guy getting a donor 5.0 stick car is a really easy way to get a legal V8 with a half-decent 5 speed in a foreign chassis, they make all the swap parts for a GenII RX7 and you'd have a badass car for not much. It actually pisses me off, how hard it can be to get a stick behind a SBC! The Borg Warner T-5 is an ill match for a 350, there's a reason when they got the TPI's bugs worked out that you couldn't get F-Bodies with a 350/stick for awhile - the T5 will break behind the torque of the 350. The 305 and 302 don't produce as much torque in stock or mild modded form, and the Mustang guys eventually go Tremec if they want serious power with a stick anyway.
That's why I looked into the Toyota box, which might end up being part of the equation by the time I get down to it. The 123 has a factory clutch pedal (unlike, say, my 9C1 Caprice that I had), and some kind of driveshaft fab will be necessary anyway. I might even remove the flex discs and center bearing and just go with a one-piece, I don't know. Theoretically I could keep the front end of a Celica or Supra driveshaft and have the rear modded to mate to the M-B pumpkin. Flex discs are great from a NVH standpoint but I think u-joints are cheaper to replace in the long run.
I'm glad to see there's some open mindedness here, I used to get into long debates with the RX7 guys who got all twisted over a non-Jap (non-rotor, really) motor going into those cars - not that the guys who had a car that could hang with a Vette for a third of the price were complaining.
Another favorite blasphemer over the years is Bill Strong with his his MkI Northstar-powered Toyota MR2 (www.mr2oc.com), which is an inspired piece of modern day hot rodding and home fabrication.
Kind of the same idea inverted, I was wondering what do with that perfectly good, low mile 616 I have...I wonder how it'd do in a Baja Bug. The motor does well with a car with sissy gears 1400 lbs heavier than a Baja would be, with 4:11s in a stock gearbox. The 1600DP only put out 65hp and probably matching torque, and the 616 beats it handily in both departments. You always see a mostly complete Baja Bug going for a few hundred bones...and no motor. VW motors can be tuned to sick outputs but are kind of expensive now in comparison with their output (hp/dollar). And with the exception of turbocharging (not the best idea with an aircooled motor in a desert) none of the stroker motors or high-end breathing upgrades are going to deliver low-end torque like the 616, and it would probably return mileage near 40mpg.
Or a fenderless 'Rat Bug' with the same motor hanging out the back, maybe even my old man's trike if I ever get it out from back east.
One project spawns another - better than just spawning another parts car, I say.
- CID
(05-31-2009, 01:51 AM)DeliveryValve This is a good project I'll keep tabs on.
-Putting a Ford Windsor, Cleveland, or M would be much easier because of the front oil sump.
-I don't think a stock Ford 8.8 is as strong as the a stock GM 12 bolt. But with a Rear End Cover Girdle and 31-spline axles it is stronger and yet still be cheaper.
Thanks.
The SBC came with a front oil sump in it's Chevy II/GenI Nova guise. Need a front sump? Order a Chevy II Oil Pan and pickup tube.
The stock 8.8 probably isn't but it's light years better than a 10 bolt, it's starting to get swapped more often into non-Fords, and you're probably right - modded, stronger for cheaper. The 4x4 crowd are starting to wake up to Toyota axles too, they live in a Tacoma off road with everything from Toyota 22Rs and V6's with superchargers to SBCs. Get one off of a Celica GT and it's set up for a 5 link with disc brakes.
Old hot rods, I think, were cool because you'd have an old 30's Ford running a 283 and T10 with a Chrysler carb and probably some old Studebaker parts mixed in there, with some swap meet gauges and a few homemade parts. Even the Jap geeks end up using some 4.6l Cobra parts to get more out of their twin turbo 300ZX, from another time, place, and mindset entirely - Nissan parts simply didn't work as good for the application.
There is no perfect car company, they all suck in one way or another - try turning on your AC and see if you don't agree. I mean, yeah, SBC swaps have been done, but is there any MB more common than those with MB engines? If I lived in Europe it would probably make more sense, but I don't. I applaud someone who does it because it's what he/she wants to do, but I like Chevy's and this is kind of my way of having my cake and eating it too, when I should feel lucky to have some two-day-old cornbread to choke down.
Mostly my inspiration has come from Grassroots Motorsports $200X Challenge. It's hard enough to find anything but a basket case to start with sometimes for that kind of money, much less show up and be ready to run-what-you-brung. The cars and mods have been hugely inventive and oftentimes pretty damn fast considering that you're talking about the same investment as a down payment on a friggin' Kia. We'd all like to be Chip Foose or the head honcho at AMG but I'm assuming that a new AMG or three pointed star is probably out of the reach of most of us. And really, I'm not always convinced that for the money and time that I couldn't come up with something I'd like better than just signing on the bottom line and driving away. And there's something to be said for coming up with your own formula. Rat Rods might not be your thing but I'm sure their owners get their grins just the same.
They're probably wondering what the hell that oddly satisfied look on the face of a 240D driver comes from - that car is slow, ain't no Civic when it comes to handling and has a rather conservative appearance, and what the hell, it's STOCK! The 240D is a piece of driving zen when it's in it's element and I rather enjoy it even as it is. Passing by people with 3x the hp in LA traffic because you actually know how to drive and the MB engineers weren't dunces, after all, has it's own satisfaction. Get in the Rat Rod and head for Phoenix and see how cool you feel (or look!). Probably look like you rolled downhill in a barrel the whole way, and feel worse.
I'd hope to see someone get a hair up their ass and post a W123 with a 6cyl 3.0 diesel and a variable vane turbo in the 12s, just to shut up 'the Chevy V8 guy'. Maybe I'll get lucky and find a car with one of those motors hammered in the rear for cheap from a guy that doesn't know the motor's worth 3k sitting on a stand. I'd like to see Hot Rod or Car Craft go 'hey, these things are different, really nice cars, not that far removed from what we like about old domestics and they can be fast too - and the aftermarket doesn't even exist for these cars yet. And they're not Japanese.' The 6/3.0 would probably be a reality for most people before a Duramax into an Impala would be. And being a sequestered, lonely corner of the car-nut world doesn't help any of us out - wouldn't it nice if you wandered in to this forum or one like it, and it was like 'You want 300hp out of a MB diesel? Humph - here's the sticky, come back when you want to do something kind of hard.' I sometimes wish I'd just buy a Mustang, Camaro, DSM Mistubishi, or something like that, no real mystery because it's been done to the point where you know what the car will do before you even get the parts out of the box. Not the most creative path but it does save a ton of trouble.
Sorry for the long posts if they bother you, I like to write and I don't think I'm all that bad at it, and I don't dig the "FAIL!" or Twitter standard all that much. The internet isn't a toddler anymore, show some depth if you can, y'know? Think of it this way; maybe we could cobble together a 'Super Turbo Diesel' kind of online mag together. There's a lot of these cars out there, and I think more people would be into them if they saw others getting results out of them. Over at Benzworld.org diesels seem relegated to second class citizens in terms of performance, and it doesn't seem to add up correctly to me. No one used to think a Civic was worth throwing a few bucks at to go fast either (not even in Japan, where Honda really isn't all that big of a player in local motorsports compared to Nissan, Subaru, and other companies).
If people knew that they could run SVO or Biodiesel in a car that gets up and goes comparable to a six or eight cylinder gas car, with near 30mpg, I think it'd find it's audience. Diesel truck guys who need something capable of navigating crap roads easily and having diesel power, but more appropriate for the wife and kids. There's lots that solely sell diesel Mercedes cars here in LA, none of them modded to go faster. I think people would dig them, and an aftermarket and associated knowledge base would follow. You'd be surprised - I've seen people adapting Subaru boxer 4 heads to VW 1600s (well, a 1998cc, to be precise), aluminum heads for Dodge slant-6's, Hayabusa-based V8's - who's to say someone wouldn't develop a better IDI head (crossflow, for example) for the OM617a? Think GM designed all of those sick SBC parts? Nope, car nuts like us.
Again, sorry for the verbage, but I kind of like the idea of finding a platform with really good potential that hasn't necessarily been explored yet. Get's my geek gears in overdrive.
- CID
CID Vicious
05-31-2009, 02:21 PM #8The stock steering box worked for the M-B 5.0, and it appears to be a larger engine than the SBC. I'm trying to get a welder together so I can learn on a few projects around the house here (owner wants a custom gate in front, and since he doesn't know how to weld either and wants to learn...), even if the 350 goes in and the exhaust is a problem, that's what they make cheap universal build-your-own-header kits for.
The 289/302 is a lighter engine than the SBC by some but ask a Mustang guy why they have 'Ford Motorsports' blocks in the first place - NA or forced induction, over 450 (some would say more like 425) hp/tq and the block is prone to cracking down the centerline. Having even this horsepower level is a distant dream right now but the Chevy doesn't have this problem. I think with a low-profile cap and rotor (used on TPI's anyway, come to think) you'd be able to move the Chevy almost as far back as the Ford. And I just ain't a Ford guy.
Little side story, my cousin's an ace heavy body guy and painter back east, into Mustangs. We're kind of a Chevy family and he doesn't really like other Fords, but he has a thing for the Fox 5.0s. He was in the driveway of the house cussing up a storm, and I found out it was because he couldn't get the hatch open on the Mustang. He takes the body and interiors apart of every make and model car you can think of for a living, and this is frustrating him that he can't get his hatch open.
"I just don't know what it is, man, it was fine and now neither the key or the hatch release button work. F***, I just don't know what it is."
Being a smart ass, I waited a second and said, "Hey, I think I know what the problem is."
"What? What is it?" He looked like he thought I'd really figured it out. I had him hooked.
So I just pointed, and smiled. At the blue oval on the hatch.
"There it is, look, you've got these things all over your car - this thing is f***ed!"
But hell man, someone probably has the same story in photonegative, pointing to a bow tie on a Camaro and saying the same thing. Honestly, if you're a Ford guy getting a donor 5.0 stick car is a really easy way to get a legal V8 with a half-decent 5 speed in a foreign chassis, they make all the swap parts for a GenII RX7 and you'd have a badass car for not much. It actually pisses me off, how hard it can be to get a stick behind a SBC! The Borg Warner T-5 is an ill match for a 350, there's a reason when they got the TPI's bugs worked out that you couldn't get F-Bodies with a 350/stick for awhile - the T5 will break behind the torque of the 350. The 305 and 302 don't produce as much torque in stock or mild modded form, and the Mustang guys eventually go Tremec if they want serious power with a stick anyway.
That's why I looked into the Toyota box, which might end up being part of the equation by the time I get down to it. The 123 has a factory clutch pedal (unlike, say, my 9C1 Caprice that I had), and some kind of driveshaft fab will be necessary anyway. I might even remove the flex discs and center bearing and just go with a one-piece, I don't know. Theoretically I could keep the front end of a Celica or Supra driveshaft and have the rear modded to mate to the M-B pumpkin. Flex discs are great from a NVH standpoint but I think u-joints are cheaper to replace in the long run.
I'm glad to see there's some open mindedness here, I used to get into long debates with the RX7 guys who got all twisted over a non-Jap (non-rotor, really) motor going into those cars - not that the guys who had a car that could hang with a Vette for a third of the price were complaining.
Another favorite blasphemer over the years is Bill Strong with his his MkI Northstar-powered Toyota MR2 (www.mr2oc.com), which is an inspired piece of modern day hot rodding and home fabrication.
Kind of the same idea inverted, I was wondering what do with that perfectly good, low mile 616 I have...I wonder how it'd do in a Baja Bug. The motor does well with a car with sissy gears 1400 lbs heavier than a Baja would be, with 4:11s in a stock gearbox. The 1600DP only put out 65hp and probably matching torque, and the 616 beats it handily in both departments. You always see a mostly complete Baja Bug going for a few hundred bones...and no motor. VW motors can be tuned to sick outputs but are kind of expensive now in comparison with their output (hp/dollar). And with the exception of turbocharging (not the best idea with an aircooled motor in a desert) none of the stroker motors or high-end breathing upgrades are going to deliver low-end torque like the 616, and it would probably return mileage near 40mpg.
Or a fenderless 'Rat Bug' with the same motor hanging out the back, maybe even my old man's trike if I ever get it out from back east.
One project spawns another - better than just spawning another parts car, I say.
- CID
(05-31-2009, 01:51 AM)DeliveryValve This is a good project I'll keep tabs on.
-Putting a Ford Windsor, Cleveland, or M would be much easier because of the front oil sump.
-I don't think a stock Ford 8.8 is as strong as the a stock GM 12 bolt. But with a Rear End Cover Girdle and 31-spline axles it is stronger and yet still be cheaper.
Thanks.
The SBC came with a front oil sump in it's Chevy II/GenI Nova guise. Need a front sump? Order a Chevy II Oil Pan and pickup tube.
The stock 8.8 probably isn't but it's light years better than a 10 bolt, it's starting to get swapped more often into non-Fords, and you're probably right - modded, stronger for cheaper. The 4x4 crowd are starting to wake up to Toyota axles too, they live in a Tacoma off road with everything from Toyota 22Rs and V6's with superchargers to SBCs. Get one off of a Celica GT and it's set up for a 5 link with disc brakes.
Old hot rods, I think, were cool because you'd have an old 30's Ford running a 283 and T10 with a Chrysler carb and probably some old Studebaker parts mixed in there, with some swap meet gauges and a few homemade parts. Even the Jap geeks end up using some 4.6l Cobra parts to get more out of their twin turbo 300ZX, from another time, place, and mindset entirely - Nissan parts simply didn't work as good for the application.
There is no perfect car company, they all suck in one way or another - try turning on your AC and see if you don't agree. I mean, yeah, SBC swaps have been done, but is there any MB more common than those with MB engines? If I lived in Europe it would probably make more sense, but I don't. I applaud someone who does it because it's what he/she wants to do, but I like Chevy's and this is kind of my way of having my cake and eating it too, when I should feel lucky to have some two-day-old cornbread to choke down.
Mostly my inspiration has come from Grassroots Motorsports $200X Challenge. It's hard enough to find anything but a basket case to start with sometimes for that kind of money, much less show up and be ready to run-what-you-brung. The cars and mods have been hugely inventive and oftentimes pretty damn fast considering that you're talking about the same investment as a down payment on a friggin' Kia. We'd all like to be Chip Foose or the head honcho at AMG but I'm assuming that a new AMG or three pointed star is probably out of the reach of most of us. And really, I'm not always convinced that for the money and time that I couldn't come up with something I'd like better than just signing on the bottom line and driving away. And there's something to be said for coming up with your own formula. Rat Rods might not be your thing but I'm sure their owners get their grins just the same.
They're probably wondering what the hell that oddly satisfied look on the face of a 240D driver comes from - that car is slow, ain't no Civic when it comes to handling and has a rather conservative appearance, and what the hell, it's STOCK! The 240D is a piece of driving zen when it's in it's element and I rather enjoy it even as it is. Passing by people with 3x the hp in LA traffic because you actually know how to drive and the MB engineers weren't dunces, after all, has it's own satisfaction. Get in the Rat Rod and head for Phoenix and see how cool you feel (or look!). Probably look like you rolled downhill in a barrel the whole way, and feel worse.
I'd hope to see someone get a hair up their ass and post a W123 with a 6cyl 3.0 diesel and a variable vane turbo in the 12s, just to shut up 'the Chevy V8 guy'. Maybe I'll get lucky and find a car with one of those motors hammered in the rear for cheap from a guy that doesn't know the motor's worth 3k sitting on a stand. I'd like to see Hot Rod or Car Craft go 'hey, these things are different, really nice cars, not that far removed from what we like about old domestics and they can be fast too - and the aftermarket doesn't even exist for these cars yet. And they're not Japanese.' The 6/3.0 would probably be a reality for most people before a Duramax into an Impala would be. And being a sequestered, lonely corner of the car-nut world doesn't help any of us out - wouldn't it nice if you wandered in to this forum or one like it, and it was like 'You want 300hp out of a MB diesel? Humph - here's the sticky, come back when you want to do something kind of hard.' I sometimes wish I'd just buy a Mustang, Camaro, DSM Mistubishi, or something like that, no real mystery because it's been done to the point where you know what the car will do before you even get the parts out of the box. Not the most creative path but it does save a ton of trouble.
Sorry for the long posts if they bother you, I like to write and I don't think I'm all that bad at it, and I don't dig the "FAIL!" or Twitter standard all that much. The internet isn't a toddler anymore, show some depth if you can, y'know? Think of it this way; maybe we could cobble together a 'Super Turbo Diesel' kind of online mag together. There's a lot of these cars out there, and I think more people would be into them if they saw others getting results out of them. Over at Benzworld.org diesels seem relegated to second class citizens in terms of performance, and it doesn't seem to add up correctly to me. No one used to think a Civic was worth throwing a few bucks at to go fast either (not even in Japan, where Honda really isn't all that big of a player in local motorsports compared to Nissan, Subaru, and other companies).
If people knew that they could run SVO or Biodiesel in a car that gets up and goes comparable to a six or eight cylinder gas car, with near 30mpg, I think it'd find it's audience. Diesel truck guys who need something capable of navigating crap roads easily and having diesel power, but more appropriate for the wife and kids. There's lots that solely sell diesel Mercedes cars here in LA, none of them modded to go faster. I think people would dig them, and an aftermarket and associated knowledge base would follow. You'd be surprised - I've seen people adapting Subaru boxer 4 heads to VW 1600s (well, a 1998cc, to be precise), aluminum heads for Dodge slant-6's, Hayabusa-based V8's - who's to say someone wouldn't develop a better IDI head (crossflow, for example) for the OM617a? Think GM designed all of those sick SBC parts? Nope, car nuts like us.
Again, sorry for the verbage, but I kind of like the idea of finding a platform with really good potential that hasn't necessarily been explored yet. Get's my geek gears in overdrive.
- CID
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDsRa4eT7co
GREASY_BEAST
05-31-2009, 06:36 PM #9Check this out for a custom head (They did an OM603 too):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDsRa4eT7co
CID Vicious
09-21-2009, 10:19 PM #11Not at all, sir. How's that combo working out for you? Always wondered how these would do in a full size pickup. I myself am planning on an 80's Toyota pickup with the five speed as a recipient for my 240D's OM616 four cylinder. Should be an excellent little light pickup that gets high 30's on the highway, perfect for picking up deals in the middle of nowhere. Almost a thousand pounds lighter than the donor car, and it will be just the thing to get me to swap in a turbo five cylinder.
'78 300D, OM617.912: 4spd manual, TB03 at 10PSI, 26*BTDC, DV's turned, HVAC, emissions system removed, e-fan, short ram, 3" downpipe to straight exhaust, W126 Bendix brakes, MR2 Spyder seats. 2890lbs
I would love a 350 benz, but I need at least one car that does better than 12mpg. I've got a '85 c20 and a '76 crew cab c30 to waste gas with.
'78 300D, OM617.912: 4spd manual, TB03 at 10PSI, 26*BTDC, DV's turned, HVAC, emissions system removed, e-fan, short ram, 3" downpipe to straight exhaust, W126 Bendix brakes, MR2 Spyder seats. 2890lbs
The key to getting good mileage out of a V8 is overdrive, period. Even carb'd big blocks can hit 20 mpg in a car with a five speed OD. An EFI SBC would be able to get around 25mpg, which an LT1 powered Caprice could get on the highway. The ligher 240D with much less rolling resistance would easily match that 3900+lb whale's mileage if not better it.
I have a TPI manifold that could be the basis for a very simple Megasquirt based EFI system. Once I got a mild NA motor running, if I want to get serious I flip the stock exhaust manifolds over, add turbo flanges, and make enough power and torque to make a Finn blush.
I just happen to have half of the equation: a W58 transmission from a Celica Supra. I'm going to get a stock Supra or Celica driveshaft, have the back end modified to use the Dodge U-Joints and put aside the 616, four speed and stock driveshaft. I'd leave the outside totally stock, especially the badges. We were passing the previous generation M3 on the way into the city (so fun in the downhill sections, and the 616 is running a cold air intake now because the stock filter didn't want to seal properly, so I adapted it to the 616 in the interest of better filtration).
Man, what fun it would be to have the car mostly stock looking on the outside, just get in front of the M3 and leave his ass. "WTF? 240D's don't do that!" No, but 570E's do!
I'm looking at doing a super turbo, and the cost is similar to just doing what I really want to do. The 616 can always go back in, turbocharged if anything, or I can use it for an old Hi-Lux or LUV.
I was toying with the idea of getting a Celica Supra for cheap, know of one locally, but I don't need another car so much and I like the 123 very much, the engine just needs to grow some cajones. The 'double the cylinder count and gas conversion' should do the trick
Now that the 300D springs with 2 coils missing are in, the car just looks and feels so much more 'proper' - BMW like, I'd say. The stock stance makes a lot of sense in a lot of ways but it just doesn't stoke my car lust very much, and isn't the best for cornering either. Now I've got 205 70 14s on Bundts, the rear springs are about to get swapped for 300D units. I don't know how many coils yet, maybe 1.5 - I like the little bit of rake the car has now, I want it to be stiffer in the back though.
I wonder how much the 15s add to the value of the 300D for resale, though...I'd like to keep the 15x7s, kind of hard to find wheels that wide, run the stock 80's Camaro/Firebird size tires. Four door German built IRS Camaro? That's kind of the idea!
Only it would be even lighter...MR2 seats, Civic/Miata battery, fiberglass sunroof panel replacement with removed tracks, motor, cable, etc., lexan side windows, deleted AC and Cruise, eventually euro bumpers. Maybe fiberglass decoys to replace the stock units? Hehe...
So this would be an outwardly mostly stock appearing car (less so with the 15x7s, which I'm not sure I'd go with...maybe the 190E wheels with spacers), with the typical suspension, rolling stock, and brake upgrades, just running about 250hp 350lb ft minimum with a stock 350. Maybe I can score a 5.3l LS but that kind of complicates things and multiplies the cost. Besides, it would almost be a 'period' swap this way, something some bored rich guy built when he realized he was smog exempt, and that as a red blooded American you deserve a V8 powered rocket at least once in your life, at least if you're a car nut.
So now I have to find an AX15 bellhousing out of an older 2.5l powered Jeep, figure out the clutch disc and pressure plate I'll need and source the motor. The Supra was going to cost me 400 bucks plus the labor of a motor swap, new tires, god knows what else on a car that's been sitting for a long time, about 3k lbs but only about 150hp, 160 lb-ft, and it needs to be smogged. As long as the exhaust is kept quiet the illusion should be complete. At some future point if I lose my nerve I can always find an LT1 or LS1 to swap in place and it'll still be fast as hell and smog legal, too.
The W58 has to be positioned where the shifter will be in the proper place. I'm not worried about weight distribution as I'm pretty sure it's not any heavier (and with aluminum heads, certainly lighter) than a 617a, and MB looks like they essentially made every motor line up to the same point in the front anyway. So the good handling of the 123 will not be negatively affected by the V8 being forward of where it would otherwise be optimally placed. It looks like, irony of ironies, that the W58 wouldn't work at all for a 617a in a 123 - but it might work for a 616, and would make for an interesting option (turbo'd 616 with the five speed behind it might make it an interesting alternative to the 617a/four speed formula.
I figure if I'm not intent on running this car on WVO and I'm not worried about EMP from either human or solar activity, then if I want to get my jollies with a minimum of work and investment, this is the way to go. The 616 can be recycled in a light truck with the four speed behind it, or anything else I can find for cheap - Falcon Ranchero? Datsun 510? I still want to turbocharge that 616, too.
If I want the power of the SBC and the benefits of diesel in the car again, well, let's see...6.2? 6.5 Turbo? NPR Turbodiesel? The latter has a readily available adapter to GM transmissions, which would bolt to the already altered W58.
CID Vicious
12-23-2009, 01:41 AM #13See, if you do the V8 right, and know how to drive it, you can get good gas mileage, especially in relation to the horsepower on tap.
The key to getting good mileage out of a V8 is overdrive, period. Even carb'd big blocks can hit 20 mpg in a car with a five speed OD. An EFI SBC would be able to get around 25mpg, which an LT1 powered Caprice could get on the highway. The ligher 240D with much less rolling resistance would easily match that 3900+lb whale's mileage if not better it.
I have a TPI manifold that could be the basis for a very simple Megasquirt based EFI system. Once I got a mild NA motor running, if I want to get serious I flip the stock exhaust manifolds over, add turbo flanges, and make enough power and torque to make a Finn blush.
I just happen to have half of the equation: a W58 transmission from a Celica Supra. I'm going to get a stock Supra or Celica driveshaft, have the back end modified to use the Dodge U-Joints and put aside the 616, four speed and stock driveshaft. I'd leave the outside totally stock, especially the badges. We were passing the previous generation M3 on the way into the city (so fun in the downhill sections, and the 616 is running a cold air intake now because the stock filter didn't want to seal properly, so I adapted it to the 616 in the interest of better filtration).
Man, what fun it would be to have the car mostly stock looking on the outside, just get in front of the M3 and leave his ass. "WTF? 240D's don't do that!" No, but 570E's do!
I'm looking at doing a super turbo, and the cost is similar to just doing what I really want to do. The 616 can always go back in, turbocharged if anything, or I can use it for an old Hi-Lux or LUV.
I was toying with the idea of getting a Celica Supra for cheap, know of one locally, but I don't need another car so much and I like the 123 very much, the engine just needs to grow some cajones. The 'double the cylinder count and gas conversion' should do the trick
Now that the 300D springs with 2 coils missing are in, the car just looks and feels so much more 'proper' - BMW like, I'd say. The stock stance makes a lot of sense in a lot of ways but it just doesn't stoke my car lust very much, and isn't the best for cornering either. Now I've got 205 70 14s on Bundts, the rear springs are about to get swapped for 300D units. I don't know how many coils yet, maybe 1.5 - I like the little bit of rake the car has now, I want it to be stiffer in the back though.
I wonder how much the 15s add to the value of the 300D for resale, though...I'd like to keep the 15x7s, kind of hard to find wheels that wide, run the stock 80's Camaro/Firebird size tires. Four door German built IRS Camaro? That's kind of the idea!
Only it would be even lighter...MR2 seats, Civic/Miata battery, fiberglass sunroof panel replacement with removed tracks, motor, cable, etc., lexan side windows, deleted AC and Cruise, eventually euro bumpers. Maybe fiberglass decoys to replace the stock units? Hehe...
So this would be an outwardly mostly stock appearing car (less so with the 15x7s, which I'm not sure I'd go with...maybe the 190E wheels with spacers), with the typical suspension, rolling stock, and brake upgrades, just running about 250hp 350lb ft minimum with a stock 350. Maybe I can score a 5.3l LS but that kind of complicates things and multiplies the cost. Besides, it would almost be a 'period' swap this way, something some bored rich guy built when he realized he was smog exempt, and that as a red blooded American you deserve a V8 powered rocket at least once in your life, at least if you're a car nut.
So now I have to find an AX15 bellhousing out of an older 2.5l powered Jeep, figure out the clutch disc and pressure plate I'll need and source the motor. The Supra was going to cost me 400 bucks plus the labor of a motor swap, new tires, god knows what else on a car that's been sitting for a long time, about 3k lbs but only about 150hp, 160 lb-ft, and it needs to be smogged. As long as the exhaust is kept quiet the illusion should be complete. At some future point if I lose my nerve I can always find an LT1 or LS1 to swap in place and it'll still be fast as hell and smog legal, too.
The W58 has to be positioned where the shifter will be in the proper place. I'm not worried about weight distribution as I'm pretty sure it's not any heavier (and with aluminum heads, certainly lighter) than a 617a, and MB looks like they essentially made every motor line up to the same point in the front anyway. So the good handling of the 123 will not be negatively affected by the V8 being forward of where it would otherwise be optimally placed. It looks like, irony of ironies, that the W58 wouldn't work at all for a 617a in a 123 - but it might work for a 616, and would make for an interesting option (turbo'd 616 with the five speed behind it might make it an interesting alternative to the 617a/four speed formula.
I figure if I'm not intent on running this car on WVO and I'm not worried about EMP from either human or solar activity, then if I want to get my jollies with a minimum of work and investment, this is the way to go. The 616 can be recycled in a light truck with the four speed behind it, or anything else I can find for cheap - Falcon Ranchero? Datsun 510? I still want to turbocharge that 616, too.
If I want the power of the SBC and the benefits of diesel in the car again, well, let's see...6.2? 6.5 Turbo? NPR Turbodiesel? The latter has a readily available adapter to GM transmissions, which would bolt to the already altered W58.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=763645
did someone say weld up the diff?
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=763645
CID Vicious
12-23-2009, 04:20 AM #15Yeah, y'know, but you need that heavy duty clutch and driveshaft for it to work!
(12-23-2009, 04:20 AM)CID Vicious Yeah, y'know, but you need that heavy duty clutch and driveshaft for it to work!
I've been running a welded diff for more than a year. It wears tires a little weird but it does a pretty good drift car imitation.
Lincolnlock
12-28-2009, 08:41 PM #16(12-23-2009, 04:20 AM)CID Vicious Yeah, y'know, but you need that heavy duty clutch and driveshaft for it to work!
I've been running a welded diff for more than a year. It wears tires a little weird but it does a pretty good drift car imitation.
.I'd be willing to find a spare diff and weld up one. Just swap them out when I feel like getting frisky for awhile, and when I want to drive like a sane man again, swap the open back in. Maybe even weld the 240D diff (I've heard the manual 240D could have been equipped with a 3.72, and has at least a 3.46, I could get a 3.06 or even higher diff for long trips and getting better gas mileage. Since the gears go as high (numerically low) as 2.04 I believe, I could get the same mileage as a 300D or better as long as I wasn't getting on the gas, and it still would be faster than a modded 617a
. Those high gears could be real useful if the 'whole hog' twin turbo setup was ever installed, which it could since the cost of a pair of junkyard T3s, rails, injectors, a few sensors and a Megasquirt system wouldn't be much at all considering the stupid power we'd be talking about. I don't really care about brands all that much - on paper, I'm much more of a BMW guy but I know there's no way I could have bought any Bimmer for 700 bucks and have it drive through LA, the desert and up and down mountains absolutely flawlessly for almost a year with no real investment in maintenance - a pre filter for the fuel, a new stock air filter, oil change, and the biggest one of all (which doesn't have to be done again for a good long while) is the set of axles. There's no such Bimmer and if there is I wouldn't be lucky enough to be the guy to get it. Now that I've seen what a W123 can do with very minimal mods, and how cheap the cars are to obtain, and the built in junkyard upgrade paths, I'll not be looking at other cars for awhile - for the price of a VTEC Civic I could have a rip-snorting V8123. If you're not a terminal speed addict, even better, because even with the stock horsepower, the car is simply perfectly adequate and very satisfying. However, I'm just dumb enough to want more.
Now that the 240D's springs have been swapped with the 300D's in the front and been relieved of two coils, and the steel front/aluminum 'steel look' back with Wal Mart 185 width tires have been set aside for spares in favor of 205 widths on Bundts, the car is simply brilliant in the canyons. I cobbled up a cold air intake and now, combined with the removed butterfly, I'm caught much less flat-footed coming out of tight corners. It's not dramatic, but the car is much more relaxed at highway speeds too, it's simply not having to work as hard as it did before. I've emptied every single thing out of the car when the exhaust was just out to the resonator and the stock filter was in place and the resulting performance gain wasn't as dramatic as this car is with a fix-a-pipe and cherry bomb turbo muffler added to the exhaust, a 180lb passenger, jack, spare, extra fuel, spare fluids, tool box, etc. I wasn't expecting anything other than a rather pleasant intake growl (achieved) and more reliable filtration (the stock box was constantly coming loose at idle, only to be sucked down onto the TB opening when the accelerator was pushed in. Living in a desert, I decided that the 'inferior' filtration of a K&N style filter was still superior to a stock paper filter that didn't want to stay put, especially in this dusty, windy desert. I like the rings and my compression just where they are, which I'm assuming is healthy because the motor is willing and if it was low it would be truly gutless. If I didn't know anything about 240Ds and drove this one, and someone said it had 100hp, I'd believe them, seeing as how it must be some 3600lbs with me aboard. On paper, a stock 1600DP Beetle should be able to run away from me (same power, much lighter, steeper gears) but I doubt one would - then again, as one says, the hp charts don't tell the whole story with diesels.
I'm thinking of turbocharging the 616 anyway, and that's probably going to be the next step since I'm thinking it's going to be about 1500 bucks to get the V8 (assuming I wait for a nice, low priced complete one), the bellhousing, clutch parts, and the driveshaft mods done, not including the exhaust, which is going to have to be 'Vewy, Vewy Quiet' so as to not give away our little secret to The Man. Nor to the chump in the next lane...I was actually thinking that a cheap way of achieving this would be with a pair of 300D mufflers. They're straight through, perforated, and very quiet in the 300D at least, and look stock (because they are!).
I'll know when I have a price total for stage one, which is just the turbo install, then stage two, which will be a full 300D turbo exhaust swap (minus the resonator). I'm thinking that this can be achieved for under 500 bucks, probably significantly under. If it isn't then it's going to be straight to V8.
The driveline is going to be a Celica Supra driveshaft with the rear portion modified to accept the Dodge mount that adapts a U-Joint to our differentials. Out come the flex discs and center bearing, and put aside - done right the car could be returned to 616 power in a weekend of hard wrenching. The only bitch is the shifter section would have to be cut out of the tunnel, but it could always be welded back in.
I have the W58 trans and it looks like it will be easy to adapt to the W123, or more so than most have speculated. Simply put, the Benz isn't all that different in layout than any other RWD car of the era. Their driveshaft setup is fairly unique, but we're getting rid of that nonsense in favor of a simpler and more direct setup. Basically I'm going to remove the 616 and MB four speed, then slide the W58 up until the shifter is where it should be, which will be a little more aft than the stock setup (I'm 6'2" and while the stock setup is nice, about an inch or so towards the back would be perfect for me). The front edge of the bellhousing is marked and then the engine and trans go in as a unit, they're lined up, a hole is cut for the shifter in the right spot and the engine mounts are fabbed up, then a solution for the trans mount is figured out. I'm not worried all that much about getting the engine as far back as possible because the car certainly doesn't do badly with an OM61X in it's nose, and an aluminum headed SBC (or an iron headed one with the battery relocated) would probably match or be lighter than what's already there, and from my eyeball approximation the engine would still be closer to the firewall than the 616 currently is. Should also be lower center of gravity, being a V setup, but even if there's a small handling trade-off...screw it.
I think the W58 and related transimissions could work with either the 616 or 617, perhaps both depending on the final shifter position. I've been lazy and haven't gotten the measuring tape out but I might tomorrow. By eyeball it should work with at least one of the motors (if it turns out to be the 616, then maybe turboing one won't seem so silly to some members).
Interesting note about the W58; despite having a .78 overdrive gear, the W58 almost qualifies as a close ratio transmission and is often mentioned as though it is. Seems to be a pretty good compromise, keeping the better highway rpms of the OD gear but without any chasms between gears. A 2.3 16v tranny, on the other hand, is a 'true' close ratio but 5th is 1:1, so there's no mpg/rpm benefit from it, though you would get from a standstill to top speed faster.
Some of the rationale for this project: think about making a kind of 'ultimate classic'. For me, that means something with a SBC, quite obviously, and just like Brock Samson's illegitimate son, I too am barred from driving an automatic due to my lack of a vagina ;-). I've always been more concentrated on road capabilities than drag strip flash - never saw the Hazzard brothers beat the Sheriff in a drag race, always on a 'real' road in 'real' conditions. Never drew pizza cutters on my cars even as a kid. So I want a classic that handles and brakes, too. IRS. Oh, and if the unmentionable should happen, I'd like a decent chance of walking away from the accident, and I want it to be dead reliable, too. Since I have no need to advertise my power, I prefer sleepers, and it's been awhile since any American car built before 1985 just blended right into traffic. I'd like a fairly spacious, well laid out and comfortable interior, too, a blend of modern and classic, which surely would be a custom job...
Oh, and the gas mileage can't dip below 25mpg highway when I need to stretch the paycheck. Fuel consumption is the price of horsepower (unless you've got a well tuned turbodiesel), but do you want to save fuel, or money? Efficiency comes with a price, and efficiency AND power is just plain expensive. At least when you're using that power, loafing a V8 in OD is actually pretty efficient, and even skipping gears in a V8 powered car to save fuel is more relaxing in traffic than driving the snot out of a stock 240D trying to not get rear ended by pissed off Geo Metro drivers who think you're too slow, not to mention everyone else on the road. Oh, and while I'd like to eventually become California compliant, I'd like to be able to, you know, shake the car down in some preliminary test drives (which could take years
) before taking the car to the CARB ref, so I don't want to have to inspect it until I want to, either.If the car mentioned in the preceding paragraph isn't the car I've been talking about in this thread, good luck robbing enough banks to get something that fits the bill. Don't think so? Then you probably:
A) Own a shop.
B) Kiss the ass of someone who owns a shop (ie work in one)
C) Blow someone who owns a shop
D) Provide blow for someone who owns a shop
or E), you just really haven't looked at how much of a money-pit a 'custom' car is. I saw a Lark VI like I used to have converted to Corvette suspension with a Corvette drivetrain (LSx, Camaro T56 and a C4 pumpkin), custom 'modern' interior, new bodywork and fat rolling stock - he could have restored the Lark and bought a new Vette for less than he invested, let's just say that.
Bolting a 350/W58 into a W123 accomplishes all of the above (er, two paragraphs up) and should cost less than 3k all told. A bonus is the generation of a 'spare' 616, four speed and driveshaft waiting to convert some weird old car into something useful (I'm looking at you, Chevy II or El Camino), economical and practical, while the 240D becomes the Hulk in Urkel's clothing. (Sort of, once the stance is adjusted and some at least 205 width tires are installed it looks more like something your mullet headed cousin would drive instead of your combover sporting grandfather.) It also allows those of us not intent on following the 617a hot-rodding will o' the wisp wherever it goes to explore what the W123 is really capable of, and some real power will reveal all.
Another thing is risk: I have no idea whether I'll be able to make a 617a powered 123 truly fast within a reasonable budget. I could blow through a couple grand on a 'grand experiment' that wouldn't quite have the same level of payout. With the Chevy, it's a slam dunk, and if I want get complicated, the hardest thing is going to be keeping whatever's behind a twin turbo V8 from turning into a transmission- or differential-shaped jigsaw puzzle on the pavement. Actually, it would be simple enough - never make enough traction to hook hard. Or find a set of mid to low 2.xx gears.
8 spark plugs and a bowtie on the rocker cover - the permanent fix for an 'understeer-prone' chassis
. Anyway, this would be long by a magazine article's standards, and I know that it's War and Peace by forum standards, so I'll cut this off for now. Look for my late model cold air intake for my 240D with EGR (you pre-EGR guys have it too easy!), cheap and easy metal grille (and it's not even as cheesy as you're thinking it is right now), turbo 616 (as it happens), the 300D/240D swap and cut results, lightweight sunroof panel replacement (plus removal of all stock tracks, motor, etc), and Lexan side windows. I've already removed my cruise control and EGR linkages, condenser and collector for the AC, the compressor is next on the chopping block. Now that I have a few (and I do mean few) bucks to toss around I'll try some stuff out and post the results. I have to say, so far, the 240D has proven more 'tunable' than I expected, and even if I have to stop at cut springs and a CAI with some lightening work done, I'd be happy enough with my 'luxo-four-door-Miata', but the 300D's proceeds might give me enough capital to get some of this stuff off of the page and onto the street. Until then...
yeah, I finally shut up, big whoop, wanna fight about it?
CID Vicious
12-29-2009, 04:06 AM #17Sorry, I thought you were giving me a little 'wink wink' since the guy in the thread appears to have welded his ring and pinion together, rather than his spider gears. I don't know whether it's a real fuckup or just a guy who'll go the distance for a great internet joke, but either way it's kuh-lassic .
I'd be willing to find a spare diff and weld up one. Just swap them out when I feel like getting frisky for awhile, and when I want to drive like a sane man again, swap the open back in. Maybe even weld the 240D diff (I've heard the manual 240D could have been equipped with a 3.72, and has at least a 3.46, I could get a 3.06 or even higher diff for long trips and getting better gas mileage. Since the gears go as high (numerically low) as 2.04 I believe, I could get the same mileage as a 300D or better as long as I wasn't getting on the gas, and it still would be faster than a modded 617a . Those high gears could be real useful if the 'whole hog' twin turbo setup was ever installed, which it could since the cost of a pair of junkyard T3s, rails, injectors, a few sensors and a Megasquirt system wouldn't be much at all considering the stupid power we'd be talking about.
I don't really care about brands all that much - on paper, I'm much more of a BMW guy but I know there's no way I could have bought any Bimmer for 700 bucks and have it drive through LA, the desert and up and down mountains absolutely flawlessly for almost a year with no real investment in maintenance - a pre filter for the fuel, a new stock air filter, oil change, and the biggest one of all (which doesn't have to be done again for a good long while) is the set of axles. There's no such Bimmer and if there is I wouldn't be lucky enough to be the guy to get it. Now that I've seen what a W123 can do with very minimal mods, and how cheap the cars are to obtain, and the built in junkyard upgrade paths, I'll not be looking at other cars for awhile - for the price of a VTEC Civic I could have a rip-snorting V8123. If you're not a terminal speed addict, even better, because even with the stock horsepower, the car is simply perfectly adequate and very satisfying. However, I'm just dumb enough to want more.
Now that the 240D's springs have been swapped with the 300D's in the front and been relieved of two coils, and the steel front/aluminum 'steel look' back with Wal Mart 185 width tires have been set aside for spares in favor of 205 widths on Bundts, the car is simply brilliant in the canyons. I cobbled up a cold air intake and now, combined with the removed butterfly, I'm caught much less flat-footed coming out of tight corners. It's not dramatic, but the car is much more relaxed at highway speeds too, it's simply not having to work as hard as it did before. I've emptied every single thing out of the car when the exhaust was just out to the resonator and the stock filter was in place and the resulting performance gain wasn't as dramatic as this car is with a fix-a-pipe and cherry bomb turbo muffler added to the exhaust, a 180lb passenger, jack, spare, extra fuel, spare fluids, tool box, etc. I wasn't expecting anything other than a rather pleasant intake growl (achieved) and more reliable filtration (the stock box was constantly coming loose at idle, only to be sucked down onto the TB opening when the accelerator was pushed in. Living in a desert, I decided that the 'inferior' filtration of a K&N style filter was still superior to a stock paper filter that didn't want to stay put, especially in this dusty, windy desert. I like the rings and my compression just where they are, which I'm assuming is healthy because the motor is willing and if it was low it would be truly gutless. If I didn't know anything about 240Ds and drove this one, and someone said it had 100hp, I'd believe them, seeing as how it must be some 3600lbs with me aboard. On paper, a stock 1600DP Beetle should be able to run away from me (same power, much lighter, steeper gears) but I doubt one would - then again, as one says, the hp charts don't tell the whole story with diesels.
I'm thinking of turbocharging the 616 anyway, and that's probably going to be the next step since I'm thinking it's going to be about 1500 bucks to get the V8 (assuming I wait for a nice, low priced complete one), the bellhousing, clutch parts, and the driveshaft mods done, not including the exhaust, which is going to have to be 'Vewy, Vewy Quiet' so as to not give away our little secret to The Man. Nor to the chump in the next lane...I was actually thinking that a cheap way of achieving this would be with a pair of 300D mufflers. They're straight through, perforated, and very quiet in the 300D at least, and look stock (because they are!).
I'll know when I have a price total for stage one, which is just the turbo install, then stage two, which will be a full 300D turbo exhaust swap (minus the resonator). I'm thinking that this can be achieved for under 500 bucks, probably significantly under. If it isn't then it's going to be straight to V8.
The driveline is going to be a Celica Supra driveshaft with the rear portion modified to accept the Dodge mount that adapts a U-Joint to our differentials. Out come the flex discs and center bearing, and put aside - done right the car could be returned to 616 power in a weekend of hard wrenching. The only bitch is the shifter section would have to be cut out of the tunnel, but it could always be welded back in.
I have the W58 trans and it looks like it will be easy to adapt to the W123, or more so than most have speculated. Simply put, the Benz isn't all that different in layout than any other RWD car of the era. Their driveshaft setup is fairly unique, but we're getting rid of that nonsense in favor of a simpler and more direct setup. Basically I'm going to remove the 616 and MB four speed, then slide the W58 up until the shifter is where it should be, which will be a little more aft than the stock setup (I'm 6'2" and while the stock setup is nice, about an inch or so towards the back would be perfect for me). The front edge of the bellhousing is marked and then the engine and trans go in as a unit, they're lined up, a hole is cut for the shifter in the right spot and the engine mounts are fabbed up, then a solution for the trans mount is figured out. I'm not worried all that much about getting the engine as far back as possible because the car certainly doesn't do badly with an OM61X in it's nose, and an aluminum headed SBC (or an iron headed one with the battery relocated) would probably match or be lighter than what's already there, and from my eyeball approximation the engine would still be closer to the firewall than the 616 currently is. Should also be lower center of gravity, being a V setup, but even if there's a small handling trade-off...screw it.
I think the W58 and related transimissions could work with either the 616 or 617, perhaps both depending on the final shifter position. I've been lazy and haven't gotten the measuring tape out but I might tomorrow. By eyeball it should work with at least one of the motors (if it turns out to be the 616, then maybe turboing one won't seem so silly to some members).
Interesting note about the W58; despite having a .78 overdrive gear, the W58 almost qualifies as a close ratio transmission and is often mentioned as though it is. Seems to be a pretty good compromise, keeping the better highway rpms of the OD gear but without any chasms between gears. A 2.3 16v tranny, on the other hand, is a 'true' close ratio but 5th is 1:1, so there's no mpg/rpm benefit from it, though you would get from a standstill to top speed faster.
Some of the rationale for this project: think about making a kind of 'ultimate classic'. For me, that means something with a SBC, quite obviously, and just like Brock Samson's illegitimate son, I too am barred from driving an automatic due to my lack of a vagina ;-). I've always been more concentrated on road capabilities than drag strip flash - never saw the Hazzard brothers beat the Sheriff in a drag race, always on a 'real' road in 'real' conditions. Never drew pizza cutters on my cars even as a kid. So I want a classic that handles and brakes, too. IRS. Oh, and if the unmentionable should happen, I'd like a decent chance of walking away from the accident, and I want it to be dead reliable, too. Since I have no need to advertise my power, I prefer sleepers, and it's been awhile since any American car built before 1985 just blended right into traffic. I'd like a fairly spacious, well laid out and comfortable interior, too, a blend of modern and classic, which surely would be a custom job...
Oh, and the gas mileage can't dip below 25mpg highway when I need to stretch the paycheck. Fuel consumption is the price of horsepower (unless you've got a well tuned turbodiesel), but do you want to save fuel, or money? Efficiency comes with a price, and efficiency AND power is just plain expensive. At least when you're using that power, loafing a V8 in OD is actually pretty efficient, and even skipping gears in a V8 powered car to save fuel is more relaxing in traffic than driving the snot out of a stock 240D trying to not get rear ended by pissed off Geo Metro drivers who think you're too slow, not to mention everyone else on the road. Oh, and while I'd like to eventually become California compliant, I'd like to be able to, you know, shake the car down in some preliminary test drives (which could take years ) before taking the car to the CARB ref, so I don't want to have to inspect it until I want to, either.
If the car mentioned in the preceding paragraph isn't the car I've been talking about in this thread, good luck robbing enough banks to get something that fits the bill. Don't think so? Then you probably:
A) Own a shop.
B) Kiss the ass of someone who owns a shop (ie work in one)
C) Blow someone who owns a shop
D) Provide blow for someone who owns a shop
or E), you just really haven't looked at how much of a money-pit a 'custom' car is. I saw a Lark VI like I used to have converted to Corvette suspension with a Corvette drivetrain (LSx, Camaro T56 and a C4 pumpkin), custom 'modern' interior, new bodywork and fat rolling stock - he could have restored the Lark and bought a new Vette for less than he invested, let's just say that.
Bolting a 350/W58 into a W123 accomplishes all of the above (er, two paragraphs up) and should cost less than 3k all told. A bonus is the generation of a 'spare' 616, four speed and driveshaft waiting to convert some weird old car into something useful (I'm looking at you, Chevy II or El Camino), economical and practical, while the 240D becomes the Hulk in Urkel's clothing. (Sort of, once the stance is adjusted and some at least 205 width tires are installed it looks more like something your mullet headed cousin would drive instead of your combover sporting grandfather.) It also allows those of us not intent on following the 617a hot-rodding will o' the wisp wherever it goes to explore what the W123 is really capable of, and some real power will reveal all.
Another thing is risk: I have no idea whether I'll be able to make a 617a powered 123 truly fast within a reasonable budget. I could blow through a couple grand on a 'grand experiment' that wouldn't quite have the same level of payout. With the Chevy, it's a slam dunk, and if I want get complicated, the hardest thing is going to be keeping whatever's behind a twin turbo V8 from turning into a transmission- or differential-shaped jigsaw puzzle on the pavement. Actually, it would be simple enough - never make enough traction to hook hard. Or find a set of mid to low 2.xx gears.
8 spark plugs and a bowtie on the rocker cover - the permanent fix for an 'understeer-prone' chassis .
Anyway, this would be long by a magazine article's standards, and I know that it's War and Peace by forum standards, so I'll cut this off for now. Look for my late model cold air intake for my 240D with EGR (you pre-EGR guys have it too easy!), cheap and easy metal grille (and it's not even as cheesy as you're thinking it is right now), turbo 616 (as it happens), the 300D/240D swap and cut results, lightweight sunroof panel replacement (plus removal of all stock tracks, motor, etc), and Lexan side windows. I've already removed my cruise control and EGR linkages, condenser and collector for the AC, the compressor is next on the chopping block. Now that I have a few (and I do mean few) bucks to toss around I'll try some stuff out and post the results. I have to say, so far, the 240D has proven more 'tunable' than I expected, and even if I have to stop at cut springs and a CAI with some lightening work done, I'd be happy enough with my 'luxo-four-door-Miata', but the 300D's proceeds might give me enough capital to get some of this stuff off of the page and onto the street. Until then...
yeah, I finally shut up, big whoop, wanna fight about it?
A 90's era (after the roller lifters were added) 351W really would be the better choice here:
1)front sump pan already there. No need for a rare, expensive, early Nova pan or aftermarket pan or homemade pan. (And don't forget the oil pick-up issues that go with it too!)
2)Front mounted distributor. I know you don't think that's a big deal now but you will when you are older.
3)It really is a great engine. Just because you were raised on SBCs doesn't mean you can't improve your station in life!
4)That Toyota trans might actually work better with a Ford bellhousing.... look into it! IF it doesn't, Ford B/W W/C T-5s are way more common and cheaper than W/C trannys for GMs are. Heck, I've got three of them myself!
Be sure to run some aftermarket alum heads though (which you were already thinking about doing anyway).
Some corrections:
1)That ill fated GM diesel you spoke of, you didn't mention by name but you were speaking of the 5.7 right? That was based on the Oldsmobile 350, not the Chevy 350. Lots of misinformation floating around on that one but trust me on this.
2)The 2.5 Jeep never got the AX15, only the 4.0 did. The 2.5 got a junior AX5. Also, even though the 2.5 and 4.0 are very related, they have different bellhousing bolt patterns with the 4.0 having the same pattern as a AMC V-8 and the 2.5 having the same pattern as a 60 degree GM V-6 (Please don't ask why, I'm too slow a typer to explain.) I have a AX15 and bellhousing that I would probably sell sitting behind that hybrid 4.0/4.2 that I spoke of on that other thread but it is a 4WD version though.
3) The "Hazard Brothers" were actually the "Duke" cousins who were from Hazard county.
Regarding choking down "two day old cornbread": Just crumble it into a glass of milk and eat it with a spoon! Now that's good eatin'!
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
CID, I enjoyed your other thread so I though I'd read this one too. And thanks for the welcome!
A 90's era (after the roller lifters were added) 351W really would be the better choice here:
1)front sump pan already there. No need for a rare, expensive, early Nova pan or aftermarket pan or homemade pan. (And don't forget the oil pick-up issues that go with it too!)
2)Front mounted distributor. I know you don't think that's a big deal now but you will when you are older.
3)It really is a great engine. Just because you were raised on SBCs doesn't mean you can't improve your station in life!
4)That Toyota trans might actually work better with a Ford bellhousing.... look into it! IF it doesn't, Ford B/W W/C T-5s are way more common and cheaper than W/C trannys for GMs are. Heck, I've got three of them myself!
Be sure to run some aftermarket alum heads though (which you were already thinking about doing anyway).
Some corrections:
1)That ill fated GM diesel you spoke of, you didn't mention by name but you were speaking of the 5.7 right? That was based on the Oldsmobile 350, not the Chevy 350. Lots of misinformation floating around on that one but trust me on this.
2)The 2.5 Jeep never got the AX15, only the 4.0 did. The 2.5 got a junior AX5. Also, even though the 2.5 and 4.0 are very related, they have different bellhousing bolt patterns with the 4.0 having the same pattern as a AMC V-8 and the 2.5 having the same pattern as a 60 degree GM V-6 (Please don't ask why, I'm too slow a typer to explain.) I have a AX15 and bellhousing that I would probably sell sitting behind that hybrid 4.0/4.2 that I spoke of on that other thread but it is a 4WD version though.
3) The "Hazard Brothers" were actually the "Duke" cousins who were from Hazard county.
Regarding choking down "two day old cornbread": Just crumble it into a glass of milk and eat it with a spoon! Now that's good eatin'!
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
.Eh, I'm a Chevy guy. The Nova pans aren't rare and can be had at any speed shop or catalog for peanuts - I found one for 78 bucks and it's upgraded, not a dinky stock GM pan from the 60's. I already have a TPI intake sitting in the shed, though this will likely only be used if I decide to go turbo with it - NA I'd mod an LT1 intake, way better than even an upgraded TPI. Plus if I want to I can get the Chevy to be a legal swap, with a 351 my options for legality are severely limited. And the 5.0l won't work for going from NA to Turbo - those things don't even need boost to crack down the centerline at 450hp. Notice GM doesn't make a 'Chevy Motorsports' block for the SBC - it doesn't need one. The 351W is a beefier block design that doesn't have this problem, but then there's no advantage over the Chevy besides a front mount distributor. They make small distributor caps for just this purpose and besides, the engine won't be up against the firewall anyway - this is dictated by where the shifter on the transmission is. Besides, the 123s handle fine with that 617 turbo in it's nose and I'm pretty sure they weigh as much or more as an iron headed SBC.
T5s are a waste of time in my book behind any engine worth thinking about. The W58 makes even a modified WCT5 seem inadequate, and besides, I already have it. The W58 is also damn close to being a close ratio transmission, even though it has a .78 OD fifth gear.
I believe it is the AX5, it's floating around my grey matter somewhere but it's one of the early Jeeps with the 2.5l Iron Duke, they used another 2.5 later that has the 60 degree GM V6 bell pattern. It might not even be an AX bell, I just know it's the Jeep, Iron Duke, four speed bell - the rear pattern is the same as on the W58, the front pattern is SBC. Worse comes to worse, Advance Adapters makes a conversion bell.
Going Chevy lets me go NPR later if I want to, and depending on how little I can get a good 4BD1T for, it might be what I go after, after all there's nothing illegal about the swap if I keep it diesel (sort of). The NPRs have an off the shelf kit to bolt up to...you guessed it...GM transmissions, or just transmissions with a GM pattern bellhousing.
Should I get lucky or rich, T56s for Chevies are easy to find, not so with the Fords.
Chevies can use off the shelf and cheap GM beehive springs, better MPG, better throttle response, better midrange power, less than a set of outdated dual springs.
Besides, GM and Ford guys can go at this debate all day long, they're both fine motors, I just don't dig blue ovals. Bad experiences, dyed in the wool Chevy fan since the womb I'm sure knowing my dad.
I was actually referring to the not-bad-but-not-great 6.2l and 6.5l engines. I know a 6.5 Turbo will move a shorty school bus with 30 or so fully grown brats around just fine, but I'd have to get one for free for it to be on the option list. Same with the Powerjoke, not a bad motor but hardly hard-on inducing. However, the 6.2/6.5 bolt in wherever there's a set of SBC mounts, so if I want to the option is already there. NA 6.2l with a 5 speed in a 123, intriguing...the 350 Olds diesel is just an embarrassing footnote in diesel history, I'd be better off keeping my OM616.
Also, since I haven't bought my motor yet, there's always the chance that I'll pony up the extra bones to go LS, and that, my friend, is where GM and Ford guys simply cannot come to an understanding. I happen to know a couple of methods for finding the truck LS motors for a song used, 5.3l has plenty of potential and is probably the most fuel efficient V8 of it's size available (5k lb full size Silverado gets 20mpg with the 5.3), the 6.0l, fuhgeddaboutit.
Going Ford doesn't leave me with as many options, and I don't like the modular motors at all - all of the power of a V6 with roughly the same gas mileage as a LS that has a liter more displacement, oh, and it's the size and weight of a 460, while the LS1 and it's variants are simply the meanest AND lightest motors you can find. OHC design V8s (and V6s!) can't touch the LS1's low weight and power output, and even the import crowd knows this now. I've heard rumors of Ford working on a ripoff version of the LSX design now that they see their mistake - GM, it turns out, was far less than stupid for not hopping on the 'gotta have an OHC' bandwagon.
I've seen the modular motors make decent power converted to a four barrel with other mods thrown at it, but EFI'd they seem to only make V6 beating horsepower with boost, which kind of defeats the purpose of going with a V8 in the first place - a Toyota Supra 7MGTE could be had for almost nothing and is better built than either engine, already comes with a good enough EFI system and a turbo (and is built for it) and bolts right up to my transmission if I want to be 'stuck with boost' for making power. In the old days, the Ford vs Chevy thing was a competition, but after 93 it was all over but the funeral. The one thing I will say is that the 4.6 is as common as dirt and aren't as hotly sought after as the LS, so they're easier to find and cheaper to obtain. But I'll also say this - if I'm going to have big block size and big block weight, I'll go with a big block, thanks.
To reiterate, someone could go with either brand's motor and be happy, I'm going with Chevy for the reasons listed. Someone could just as easily want an M3, 300ZXTT, SR20DET, etc and it'd still be a breeze to make power with and you'd have to hang the tail out at every possible opportunity (
) to have a cop want to check under your hood. The more modern motors can't be hooked up with just a few wires and a fuel line, though. If I had the money to do it right, I'd go full legal, LT1/LS1, but if you're going to be illegal anyway, may as well make it worth it. Anyway it's way too late and I've got work to do...well, later on today now. Nice chattin'.
CID Vicious
01-02-2010, 08:01 AM #19Oh, right. It's been years since I watched Dukes of Hazzard, probably not since getting shuttled off to school .
Eh, I'm a Chevy guy. The Nova pans aren't rare and can be had at any speed shop or catalog for peanuts - I found one for 78 bucks and it's upgraded, not a dinky stock GM pan from the 60's. I already have a TPI intake sitting in the shed, though this will likely only be used if I decide to go turbo with it - NA I'd mod an LT1 intake, way better than even an upgraded TPI. Plus if I want to I can get the Chevy to be a legal swap, with a 351 my options for legality are severely limited. And the 5.0l won't work for going from NA to Turbo - those things don't even need boost to crack down the centerline at 450hp. Notice GM doesn't make a 'Chevy Motorsports' block for the SBC - it doesn't need one. The 351W is a beefier block design that doesn't have this problem, but then there's no advantage over the Chevy besides a front mount distributor. They make small distributor caps for just this purpose and besides, the engine won't be up against the firewall anyway - this is dictated by where the shifter on the transmission is. Besides, the 123s handle fine with that 617 turbo in it's nose and I'm pretty sure they weigh as much or more as an iron headed SBC.
T5s are a waste of time in my book behind any engine worth thinking about. The W58 makes even a modified WCT5 seem inadequate, and besides, I already have it. The W58 is also damn close to being a close ratio transmission, even though it has a .78 OD fifth gear.
I believe it is the AX5, it's floating around my grey matter somewhere but it's one of the early Jeeps with the 2.5l Iron Duke, they used another 2.5 later that has the 60 degree GM V6 bell pattern. It might not even be an AX bell, I just know it's the Jeep, Iron Duke, four speed bell - the rear pattern is the same as on the W58, the front pattern is SBC. Worse comes to worse, Advance Adapters makes a conversion bell.
Going Chevy lets me go NPR later if I want to, and depending on how little I can get a good 4BD1T for, it might be what I go after, after all there's nothing illegal about the swap if I keep it diesel (sort of). The NPRs have an off the shelf kit to bolt up to...you guessed it...GM transmissions, or just transmissions with a GM pattern bellhousing.
Should I get lucky or rich, T56s for Chevies are easy to find, not so with the Fords.
Chevies can use off the shelf and cheap GM beehive springs, better MPG, better throttle response, better midrange power, less than a set of outdated dual springs.
Besides, GM and Ford guys can go at this debate all day long, they're both fine motors, I just don't dig blue ovals. Bad experiences, dyed in the wool Chevy fan since the womb I'm sure knowing my dad.
I was actually referring to the not-bad-but-not-great 6.2l and 6.5l engines. I know a 6.5 Turbo will move a shorty school bus with 30 or so fully grown brats around just fine, but I'd have to get one for free for it to be on the option list. Same with the Powerjoke, not a bad motor but hardly hard-on inducing. However, the 6.2/6.5 bolt in wherever there's a set of SBC mounts, so if I want to the option is already there. NA 6.2l with a 5 speed in a 123, intriguing...the 350 Olds diesel is just an embarrassing footnote in diesel history, I'd be better off keeping my OM616.
Also, since I haven't bought my motor yet, there's always the chance that I'll pony up the extra bones to go LS, and that, my friend, is where GM and Ford guys simply cannot come to an understanding. I happen to know a couple of methods for finding the truck LS motors for a song used, 5.3l has plenty of potential and is probably the most fuel efficient V8 of it's size available (5k lb full size Silverado gets 20mpg with the 5.3), the 6.0l, fuhgeddaboutit.
Going Ford doesn't leave me with as many options, and I don't like the modular motors at all - all of the power of a V6 with roughly the same gas mileage as a LS that has a liter more displacement, oh, and it's the size and weight of a 460, while the LS1 and it's variants are simply the meanest AND lightest motors you can find. OHC design V8s (and V6s!) can't touch the LS1's low weight and power output, and even the import crowd knows this now. I've heard rumors of Ford working on a ripoff version of the LSX design now that they see their mistake - GM, it turns out, was far less than stupid for not hopping on the 'gotta have an OHC' bandwagon.
I've seen the modular motors make decent power converted to a four barrel with other mods thrown at it, but EFI'd they seem to only make V6 beating horsepower with boost, which kind of defeats the purpose of going with a V8 in the first place - a Toyota Supra 7MGTE could be had for almost nothing and is better built than either engine, already comes with a good enough EFI system and a turbo (and is built for it) and bolts right up to my transmission if I want to be 'stuck with boost' for making power. In the old days, the Ford vs Chevy thing was a competition, but after 93 it was all over but the funeral. The one thing I will say is that the 4.6 is as common as dirt and aren't as hotly sought after as the LS, so they're easier to find and cheaper to obtain. But I'll also say this - if I'm going to have big block size and big block weight, I'll go with a big block, thanks.
To reiterate, someone could go with either brand's motor and be happy, I'm going with Chevy for the reasons listed. Someone could just as easily want an M3, 300ZXTT, SR20DET, etc and it'd still be a breeze to make power with and you'd have to hang the tail out at every possible opportunity () to have a cop want to check under your hood. The more modern motors can't be hooked up with just a few wires and a fuel line, though. If I had the money to do it right, I'd go full legal, LT1/LS1, but if you're going to be illegal anyway, may as well make it worth it.
Anyway it's way too late and I've got work to do...well, later on today now. Nice chattin'.
While your car may handle pretty good regardless of where you put that engine, I guarantee you it will handle even better if you put the engine farther back and cut a new hole for the shifter and make it work somehow. Great handling is one of your stated goals. That's where a front mounted dist. helps you. I was also referring to the fact that's it's easier to reach when you get older.
The Jeep 2.5 I.D. bell you're referring to has a SBC bell pattern on the block side and a Ford style SR4/T4/T5 pattern on the trans side. (I have one of those bells B.T.W.). The AMC based 2.5 (with the GM60 bell pattern) is the one that had the AX5 behind it. The AX15 has a similar pattern but it's not quite the same. I don't know which one is the same as the W58. After AMC dumped the 2.5 I.D. in favor of it's own 2.5, the 2.5 I.D. lived on for a few more years in the S10/S15 and that may be where you'll find the W58 compatible bell you want.
I'm not a Ford guy either...look at my sig. But I would take that Windsor over the SBC. I'm 48 and I've been messing with cars since before I could legally drive and I'm here to tell you the SBC ain't all that. The aftermarket is really who made that engine what it is, not Chevy. It just happened to be the right engine at the right time back in the ancient 50s and was able to ride that wave of momentum that carried it despite newer, better engines coming on the scene in subsequent years. Even Mark Donahue, the famous Trans Am racer, in his book "The Unfair Advantage" spent a lot of time bad mouthing the SBC! Chevy didn't win any more Trans Am championships after he left them either. Not until years later when the rules of the revamped Trans Am became so lax that the Chevy could once again fall back on it's aftermarket parts did it do well again. Same with NASCAR. Only when the rules started allowing a lot of aftermarket parts did the SBC start doing well. The old generation SBC is really the only point we disagree on BTW.
The LS based engine on the other hand, is a great engine and you would totally have my blessing if you went that route. A 5.3 would be sweet indeed! A good cross between fuel economy and power, just like you said. Plus you can set it back farther!You didn't see me trying to sell you on the Ford Mod motor. You're right! They are lame! Sad too! Pathetic really. But saying it's as heavy as a 460 is a bit of a reach. Yeah, it's a pig at 600 pounds for the iron block version but that's not as bad as 720 pounds for a 460. Not all OHC motors are lame however. I was trying to link you to a video of my DOHC 4.2 Benz at the drag strip when the computer bunked out on me. I'll have to try again some other time. Also the revamped 4.7 Mopar is mean! Same hp. and tq. as the best version of the bigger 5.3 Chevy and it's still only a two valve SOHC motor! Pretend you have money and go "test drive" a new Dakota with that 4.7! Mean!
For the record, I'm still very old school. Push rods and carbs for me Bay-Bee! Check my sig again! So if I say something positive about something new school, it must be cause it's real good!
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
I just spent an hour and a half typing you a nice long response only to have my lame G.D. computer lose it all. Here's the shorter version.
While your car may handle pretty good regardless of where you put that engine, I guarantee you it will handle even better if you put the engine farther back and cut a new hole for the shifter and make it work somehow. Great handling is one of your stated goals. That's where a front mounted dist. helps you. I was also referring to the fact that's it's easier to reach when you get older.
The Jeep 2.5 I.D. bell you're referring to has a SBC bell pattern on the block side and a Ford style SR4/T4/T5 pattern on the trans side. (I have one of those bells B.T.W.). The AMC based 2.5 (with the GM60 bell pattern) is the one that had the AX5 behind it. The AX15 has a similar pattern but it's not quite the same. I don't know which one is the same as the W58. After AMC dumped the 2.5 I.D. in favor of it's own 2.5, the 2.5 I.D. lived on for a few more years in the S10/S15 and that may be where you'll find the W58 compatible bell you want.
I'm not a Ford guy either...look at my sig. But I would take that Windsor over the SBC. I'm 48 and I've been messing with cars since before I could legally drive and I'm here to tell you the SBC ain't all that. The aftermarket is really who made that engine what it is, not Chevy. It just happened to be the right engine at the right time back in the ancient 50s and was able to ride that wave of momentum that carried it despite newer, better engines coming on the scene in subsequent years. Even Mark Donahue, the famous Trans Am racer, in his book "The Unfair Advantage" spent a lot of time bad mouthing the SBC! Chevy didn't win any more Trans Am championships after he left them either. Not until years later when the rules of the revamped Trans Am became so lax that the Chevy could once again fall back on it's aftermarket parts did it do well again. Same with NASCAR. Only when the rules started allowing a lot of aftermarket parts did the SBC start doing well. The old generation SBC is really the only point we disagree on BTW. The LS based engine on the other hand, is a great engine and you would totally have my blessing if you went that route. A 5.3 would be sweet indeed! A good cross between fuel economy and power, just like you said. Plus you can set it back farther!
You didn't see me trying to sell you on the Ford Mod motor. You're right! They are lame! Sad too! Pathetic really. But saying it's as heavy as a 460 is a bit of a reach. Yeah, it's a pig at 600 pounds for the iron block version but that's not as bad as 720 pounds for a 460. Not all OHC motors are lame however. I was trying to link you to a video of my DOHC 4.2 Benz at the drag strip when the computer bunked out on me. I'll have to try again some other time. Also the revamped 4.7 Mopar is mean! Same hp. and tq. as the best version of the bigger 5.3 Chevy and it's still only a two valve SOHC motor! Pretend you have money and go "test drive" a new Dakota with that 4.7! Mean!
For the record, I'm still very old school. Push rods and carbs for me Bay-Bee! Check my sig again! So if I say something positive about something new school, it must be cause it's real good!
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
There's a real good article up on Car Craft about the twin turbo Firebird. Pulling any old school V8 is real easy, if I go that route (which is so easy as to be very, very tempting) and puked up a rotating assembly all over the street, I'd actually be proud - annoyed, but proud. The aftermarket is, indeed, the maker of that engine, and that's why it rules. However, that guy proved that you don't need a whole bunch of expensive parts to achieve numbers and trap speeds anyone would be proud of.
I'd really, really like to go LS. But even a pedestrian 350 would be just fine. Once I got past the 'it's gotta rev higher, HIGHER!' phase (a Chevy 302 with all of the valvetrain parts necessary for 7500rpm is a fantasy motor of mine) I started getting real. A 350 could easily be all I need with some cheap parts, and I've had to pass on some really nice 350s already complete from carb to pan for under a grand with lots of aftermarket goodies, if I was patient I could nab quite the motor from someone who dropped some serious coin on a motor for a car his wife will never let him build. Or, start with something half decent, add some Vortecs, beehives, and a decent but mild cam, should hit the old 1hp/CI mark and 350hp in a W123 would be just fine with me. I like the later motors, but things like 200 dollar water pumps kind of scares me away. A carb conversion for an LS runs about 600 bucks for the intake and ignition controller, 'just add' carb for about a grand. The SBC has the advantage of there ALWAYS being one in the yard, and there's ALWAYS the parts to get it running again far from home, and they're ALWAYS cheap.
The only thing really in debate right now in my head is whether to look at going with the NPR 4BD1T instead. I could achieve similar power levels really easy (140hp/240tq, but that's with a T25!), keep the car legal (ish), still use the transmission I have and probably get TDI style mileage to boot. I'm starting to be convinced that it could even be cheaper, even considering the 600 dollar adapter kit.
The problem is that the 4BD1T is a goddamned front sump motor! Thanks Mercedes, for making my engine swapping life a living hell...at least the SBC has the option of converting to front sump. I'm going to get under there at some point and see what would have to be done to get the right clearance - almost every motor I come across, same story, modding the cross member would open up a plethora of swap options.
Ha, that's funny, when I read 'you'll appreciate that when you're older' I kind of processed it as 'when you grow up'. I'm 30 now, and I'm starting to feel what my dad was talking about when he had me start doing all the wrenching on our cars in high school. Though he had a really bad back, surgeries and all that. I'm in great shape in comparison and this cold weather is starting to make itself evident, like when I stripped the cruise control and EGR valve linkages.
I need a 100 pound Asian girl to walk on my back...and then, well, what will we do to pass the time?
CID Vicious
01-03-2010, 04:49 PM #21Yeah, I'm just an old school Chevy guy. I've always been kind of disappointed at the stock parts - the 5.0 HO walks all over it in this regard - but then, I could order up a Scat 383 rotator with forged rods and pistons and the associated rings and bearings for 800 bucks from summit.
There's a real good article up on Car Craft about the twin turbo Firebird. Pulling any old school V8 is real easy, if I go that route (which is so easy as to be very, very tempting) and puked up a rotating assembly all over the street, I'd actually be proud - annoyed, but proud. The aftermarket is, indeed, the maker of that engine, and that's why it rules. However, that guy proved that you don't need a whole bunch of expensive parts to achieve numbers and trap speeds anyone would be proud of.
I'd really, really like to go LS. But even a pedestrian 350 would be just fine. Once I got past the 'it's gotta rev higher, HIGHER!' phase (a Chevy 302 with all of the valvetrain parts necessary for 7500rpm is a fantasy motor of mine) I started getting real. A 350 could easily be all I need with some cheap parts, and I've had to pass on some really nice 350s already complete from carb to pan for under a grand with lots of aftermarket goodies, if I was patient I could nab quite the motor from someone who dropped some serious coin on a motor for a car his wife will never let him build. Or, start with something half decent, add some Vortecs, beehives, and a decent but mild cam, should hit the old 1hp/CI mark and 350hp in a W123 would be just fine with me. I like the later motors, but things like 200 dollar water pumps kind of scares me away. A carb conversion for an LS runs about 600 bucks for the intake and ignition controller, 'just add' carb for about a grand. The SBC has the advantage of there ALWAYS being one in the yard, and there's ALWAYS the parts to get it running again far from home, and they're ALWAYS cheap.
The only thing really in debate right now in my head is whether to look at going with the NPR 4BD1T instead. I could achieve similar power levels really easy (140hp/240tq, but that's with a T25!), keep the car legal (ish), still use the transmission I have and probably get TDI style mileage to boot. I'm starting to be convinced that it could even be cheaper, even considering the 600 dollar adapter kit.
The problem is that the 4BD1T is a goddamned front sump motor! Thanks Mercedes, for making my engine swapping life a living hell...at least the SBC has the option of converting to front sump. I'm going to get under there at some point and see what would have to be done to get the right clearance - almost every motor I come across, same story, modding the cross member would open up a plethora of swap options.
Ha, that's funny, when I read 'you'll appreciate that when you're older' I kind of processed it as 'when you grow up'. I'm 30 now, and I'm starting to feel what my dad was talking about when he had me start doing all the wrenching on our cars in high school. Though he had a really bad back, surgeries and all that. I'm in great shape in comparison and this cold weather is starting to make itself evident, like when I stripped the cruise control and EGR valve linkages.
I need a 100 pound Asian girl to walk on my back...and then, well, what will we do to pass the time?
Seriously, that's something else we agree on...Asian Women! But I took it one step further and married one!
Here's that link to "Benzer 3" at Fontana. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOpeNXP0sMw
BTW, they're having another street legal day this coming Sat. You should try to be there! I'm expecting my best E/Ts yet with Benzer 3 because the weather is cooler this time of year than it was when I ran my best E/T to date in that car. I'd link you but once again the computer is already acting up again. Just go to Auto Club Speedway.com, then go to the Auto club dragway page and look up "Street legal Drags". If you've got something you want to run, this Sat. will be a good time to do it because of the afore mentioned cool weather and the crowds will likely be thin due to the fact that they messed up and posted this date at practically the last minute and when they do that it always leads to a low turnout. Low turnout = more runs!
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
Something that will throw your back right back out again?
Seriously, that's something else we agree on...Asian Women! But I took it one step further and married one!
Here's that link to "Benzer 3" at Fontana. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOpeNXP0sMw
BTW, they're having another street legal day this coming Sat. You should try to be there! I'm expecting my best E/Ts yet with Benzer 3 because the weather is cooler this time of year than it was when I ran my best E/T to date in that car. I'd link you but once again the computer is already acting up again. Just go to Auto Club Speedway.com, then go to the Auto club dragway page and look up "Street legal Drags". If you've got something you want to run, this Sat. will be a good time to do it because of the afore mentioned cool weather and the crowds will likely be thin due to the fact that they messed up and posted this date at practically the last minute and when they do that it always leads to a low turnout. Low turnout = more runs!
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
Wait, I'm guessing its the one in the sig. Nice! If that has the tall gears in it, maybe it's time for a pumpkin swap. Your mileage would go to shit but I don't doubt you'd be in the 13s corrected with some 3.46s or better. Maybe even faster, I know Benz likes to give those V8 cars really tall final drives.
Oh, how's that 740TD? I used to have a 760TI wagon, sold it quick, needed the money but kind of regretted it. I roasted a late 70's Camaro in that thing once - powerbraked it and was far enough ahead to get in front of him and get on the 10 on ramp
. Poor sucker never saw it coming, and I think the only thing I got around to doing was fix the leaking oil filler cap and remove the airbox silencer and rear MAF screen, but the guy was saddled with a 305 powered smogger and those GenII F-Bodies weren't exactly light. Still, every import lover's dream, smacking down a 'muscle car' with a soccer mom mobile running a 'banger. Also the same lame story about beating a smogged to death American car, like the guy with the D15/Auto Civic who's so proud that he beat a sleeping stock Mustang driver with a disconnected spark plug, but hey, it is what it was, and I still won .
CID Vicious
01-04-2010, 04:55 AM #23Commented! What was the E.T. and trap speed? Stock?
Wait, I'm guessing its the one in the sig. Nice! If that has the tall gears in it, maybe it's time for a pumpkin swap. Your mileage would go to shit but I don't doubt you'd be in the 13s corrected with some 3.46s or better. Maybe even faster, I know Benz likes to give those V8 cars really tall final drives.
Oh, how's that 740TD? I used to have a 760TI wagon, sold it quick, needed the money but kind of regretted it. I roasted a late 70's Camaro in that thing once - powerbraked it and was far enough ahead to get in front of him and get on the 10 on ramp . Poor sucker never saw it coming, and I think the only thing I got around to doing was fix the leaking oil filler cap and remove the airbox silencer and rear MAF screen, but the guy was saddled with a 305 powered smogger and those GenII F-Bodies weren't exactly light. Still, every import lover's dream, smacking down a 'muscle car' with a soccer mom mobile running a 'banger. Also the same lame story about beating a smogged to death American car, like the guy with the D15/Auto Civic who's so proud that he beat a sleeping stock Mustang driver with a disconnected spark plug, but hey, it is what it was, and I still won .
2.24 gears BAY-BEE!!!!
That was the run right before I ran my best ever E/T (the 14.476 in the sig) with this car. That run was a 14.551 with me kissing the rev limiter on the last shift. The E/T does show up on the board right before the video ends. The car is essentially stock with some minor breathing mods (intake and exhaust) and a two month older (but one model year older) ECU for the fuel injection. Also removed both MAF screens which I'm sure most folks will disagree with. I did it cause there are actually THREE on that car. That seemed like two too many to me. I've done some trial and error with it to get it where it is now. My first run down the 1/4 with this car was a 15.3 . I have a thread about the car (with links) at 500Ecstasy, I'll post a link tomorrow. (I'll post a link to the time slip too.) That site is where I met GSXR, one of the guys who also hangs out here. He's been a big help to me with this car even though he originally said I'd never even see my original goal of 14.7 unless I ditched those gears. (He'll probably deny that now
). He's a stellar guy. He's actually the first dude on a very long list of dudes wanting me to loose those gears. You're the latest. The more people try to get me to loose those gears, the more determined I get to keep them. It's just my nature I guess. Maybe someday I'll change. It's a difficult life living the life of a hardhead! It's funny those are the very first two mods I did to my 740 turbo gas Volvo wagon: Airbox and rear MAF screen. Unfortunately this car has sat too long while I did other things and now I need to drain the old gas out before I do anything else.
The diesel Volvo is a really rough 304,000 mile beater that I dearly love but I don't get to use much cause the wife hates it but I am continuing to tinker with it and am planning on taking it to the track real soon to see if my mods have done any good. I'm shooting for a 16 of some sort. Sometimes, back when I had access to red dye diesel, I would show up for dates with my then future wife in that car. I didn't know at the time just how thin the ice was that I was treading on!
I don't know if this thing is on it's first engine or third! It's a stick too! Also good to have it around ready in case we ever have any EMP trouble! The wife will love it then!
Why did you get rid of the 9C1? Even a Chevy hater like me would dig that car! (Provided it was an LT1 one.)
You didn't say if you are gonna make it to the track this week-end.
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
Commented on your comment!
2.24 gears BAY-BEE!!!!
That was the run right before I ran my best ever E/T (the 14.476 in the sig) with this car. That run was a 14.551 with me kissing the rev limiter on the last shift. The E/T does show up on the board right before the video ends. The car is essentially stock with some minor breathing mods (intake and exhaust) and a two month older (but one model year older) ECU for the fuel injection. Also removed both MAF screens which I'm sure most folks will disagree with. I did it cause there are actually THREE on that car. That seemed like two too many to me. I've done some trial and error with it to get it where it is now. My first run down the 1/4 with this car was a 15.3 . I have a thread about the car (with links) at 500Ecstasy, I'll post a link tomorrow. (I'll post a link to the time slip too.) That site is where I met GSXR, one of the guys who also hangs out here. He's been a big help to me with this car even though he originally said I'd never even see my original goal of 14.7 unless I ditched those gears. (He'll probably deny that now). He's a stellar guy. He's actually the first dude on a very long list of dudes wanting me to loose those gears. You're the latest. The more people try to get me to loose those gears, the more determined I get to keep them. It's just my nature I guess. Maybe someday I'll change. It's a difficult life living the life of a hardhead!
It's funny those are the very first two mods I did to my 740 turbo gas Volvo wagon: Airbox and rear MAF screen. Unfortunately this car has sat too long while I did other things and now I need to drain the old gas out before I do anything else.
The diesel Volvo is a really rough 304,000 mile beater that I dearly love but I don't get to use much cause the wife hates it but I am continuing to tinker with it and am planning on taking it to the track real soon to see if my mods have done any good. I'm shooting for a 16 of some sort. Sometimes, back when I had access to red dye diesel, I would show up for dates with my then future wife in that car. I didn't know at the time just how thin the ice was that I was treading on!
I don't know if this thing is on it's first engine or third! It's a stick too! Also good to have it around ready in case we ever have any EMP trouble! The wife will love it then!
Why did you get rid of the 9C1? Even a Chevy hater like me would dig that car! (Provided it was an LT1 one.)
You didn't say if you are gonna make it to the track this week-end.
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
The 9C1...is on the list of cars I should have fought harder to keep. Got it for 400 bucks without a title, did the early title search and got the ball rolling and then lost my job and had to sell it. Still pisses me off, I live on Long Island at the time and I just had no end of losers coming out to buy a 400 dollar mechanical clone of an Impala SS for fuck's sake, and it took over a month to sell it. Ran fine, transmission in good shape, if it wasn't winter and my cousin's house didn't look like a pawn shop threw up in it (his dad's fault, not his) I would have just pulled the motor, trans, and harness but it wasn't feasible. Yeah, LT1, and mine was a municipal car, no LSD but a real decent tan interior and it wasn't beaten to death (well, maybe a little, it was a Taxi for a bit).
I haven't looked for one in awhile. Would be simpler and possibly cheaper to just find one than go through this nonsense, and of course, convert it to a W58.
Unfortunately, the LT1 is the red headed stepchild of the SBC family, vast improvement over the original design but only hung around for a few years before getting axed in favor of of the LS1. Optifuck ignition and a really, really expensive water pump kind of kill the enthusiasm but it's still a real decent motor. Aside from reverse flow cooling though I'd probably rather just mod the LT1 intake so it'll accept a TPI style HEI cap and rotor and use that intake on an SBC. Either the ignition or the water pump goes on a road trip and more likely than not I'm walking home...
Eh, screw that 9C1 idea. Cheapest one I found was 1800 bucks, swapped in LT1 (originally L99 4.3l) and primer black. (I'm sure the primer black adds that extra 800 bucks in value
) And considering the Kalifornia legality BS I'd have to go through, a non-LT1 car would almost be better - swing it in for inspection with the stock gear on, bring it home, in goes the Edelbrock/Holley and a meaner cam. You can carb an LT1 too but the intake is something like 400 bucks and you still end up with Optifuck. Or, just commit an act of Blasphemy and stick to the original plan
Check this out: http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/cto...73540.html
72 280 converted to SBC. I saw this car when it was sold originally, and the guy is smoking fucking crack if he thinks it's worth that with it hit in the ass. I'm pretty sure it was sold for under a G back when I saw it a few years ago, unless there's another white early 70s 280 running a small block. Oh, and that one wasn't DESTROYED.
Oh wait, he's just outside of downtown LA, chances of the owner smoking crack just went up exponentially
.I sometimes feel like email such 'tards and bitching them out when I notice things like that, but eh, not worth the agita for me.
Oh, and there's this little gem too. (Dammit Eric, now you've got ME looking at MB V8 cars!)
1978 MERCEDES 450SLC 2 DOOR - $1150 (2010 TAGS!!!!)
Date: 2010-01-03, 10:54AM PST
Reply to: sale-xkpzy-1535411426@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]
GOOD MOTOR& TRANI RUNS GOOD V8 AUTO 310 8724339 SMOG EXEMPT ALL ORIG
* Location: 2010 TAGS!!!!
* it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests
Oh yeah, 78 cars are totally smog exempt in Cali...fuckers....
CID Vicious
01-04-2010, 05:09 PM #25Yeah, the EMP thing...my buddy is a high end radio engineer, and there is the possibility of solar storms as well, and North America would be one of the hardest hit areas. I don't think I'd dig the SBC as much in such a situation, however semi-unlikely it might be.
The 9C1...is on the list of cars I should have fought harder to keep. Got it for 400 bucks without a title, did the early title search and got the ball rolling and then lost my job and had to sell it. Still pisses me off, I live on Long Island at the time and I just had no end of losers coming out to buy a 400 dollar mechanical clone of an Impala SS for fuck's sake, and it took over a month to sell it. Ran fine, transmission in good shape, if it wasn't winter and my cousin's house didn't look like a pawn shop threw up in it (his dad's fault, not his) I would have just pulled the motor, trans, and harness but it wasn't feasible. Yeah, LT1, and mine was a municipal car, no LSD but a real decent tan interior and it wasn't beaten to death (well, maybe a little, it was a Taxi for a bit).
I haven't looked for one in awhile. Would be simpler and possibly cheaper to just find one than go through this nonsense, and of course, convert it to a W58.
Unfortunately, the LT1 is the red headed stepchild of the SBC family, vast improvement over the original design but only hung around for a few years before getting axed in favor of of the LS1. Optifuck ignition and a really, really expensive water pump kind of kill the enthusiasm but it's still a real decent motor. Aside from reverse flow cooling though I'd probably rather just mod the LT1 intake so it'll accept a TPI style HEI cap and rotor and use that intake on an SBC. Either the ignition or the water pump goes on a road trip and more likely than not I'm walking home...
Eh, screw that 9C1 idea. Cheapest one I found was 1800 bucks, swapped in LT1 (originally L99 4.3l) and primer black. (I'm sure the primer black adds that extra 800 bucks in value ) And considering the Kalifornia legality BS I'd have to go through, a non-LT1 car would almost be better - swing it in for inspection with the stock gear on, bring it home, in goes the Edelbrock/Holley and a meaner cam. You can carb an LT1 too but the intake is something like 400 bucks and you still end up with Optifuck.
Or, just commit an act of Blasphemy and stick to the original plan
Check this out: http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/cto...73540.html
72 280 converted to SBC. I saw this car when it was sold originally, and the guy is smoking fucking crack if he thinks it's worth that with it hit in the ass. I'm pretty sure it was sold for under a G back when I saw it a few years ago, unless there's another white early 70s 280 running a small block. Oh, and that one wasn't DESTROYED.
Oh wait, he's just outside of downtown LA, chances of the owner smoking crack just went up exponentially
.I sometimes feel like email such 'tards and bitching them out when I notice things like that, but eh, not worth the agita for me.
Oh, and there's this little gem too. (Dammit Eric, now you've got ME looking at MB V8 cars!)
1978 MERCEDES 450SLC 2 DOOR - $1150 (2010 TAGS!!!!)
Date: 2010-01-03, 10:54AM PST
Reply to: sale-xkpzy-1535411426@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]
GOOD MOTOR& TRANI RUNS GOOD V8 AUTO 310 8724339 SMOG EXEMPT ALL ORIG
* Location: 2010 TAGS!!!!
* it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests
Oh yeah, 78 cars are totally smog exempt in Cali...fuckers....
It's best timeslip: http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a68/Riv...1177-2.jpg (The handwritten E/T is the corrected one for weather and altitude.)
Photo showing the car number matching the one on the timeslip: http://poolemanphotography.smugmug.com/g...9607_HH2Jz
Thread about the new 575.00 dollar 95 E420, (The next project. M-119 deals are out there! Go get one!) http://www.500ecstasy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6881 (and it's looks are in way better shape than my 93 400E's!)
The drag strip site: http://www.autoclubspeedway.com/Tickets-...vents.aspx
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
The main thread (with links) about the 400E's (and mine) journey to quicker E/Ts: http://www.500ecstasy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5998 Keep in mind this car is still totally smog legal!
It's best timeslip: http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a68/Riv...1177-2.jpg (The handwritten E/T is the corrected one for weather and altitude.)
Photo showing the car number matching the one on the timeslip: http://poolemanphotography.smugmug.com/g...9607_HH2Jz
Thread about the new 575.00 dollar 95 E420, (The next project. M-119 deals are out there! Go get one!) http://www.500ecstasy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6881 (and it's looks are in way better shape than my 93 400E's!)
The drag strip site: http://www.autoclubspeedway.com/Tickets-...vents.aspx
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
(01-04-2010, 05:09 PM)CID Vicious Oh wait, he's just outside of downtown LA, chances of the owner smoking crack just went up exponentially
esp. East of LA
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
SurfRodder
01-05-2010, 01:32 AM #27(01-04-2010, 05:09 PM)CID Vicious Oh wait, he's just outside of downtown LA, chances of the owner smoking crack just went up exponentially
esp. East of LA
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
It'd probably be worth more if they'd just left the 4.5 in it. (Assuming that's not just a badge job.)
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
There's something wrong with the right front area of that car too.
It'd probably be worth more if they'd just left the 4.5 in it. (Assuming that's not just a badge job.)
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
Unless the guy swapped the rear out for either a good solid axle setup or a later IRS design (unlikely) I wouldn't want the car anyway. Swing axles, hell, even the Beetle and Corvair builders ditch those things. And man, that car is far beyond 'tapped' in the rear. It's a parts car unless you're rich and it was your dead dad's or something, but then it wouldn't be on craigslist...
Ok, so here's a question: the W58 has a close enough bellhousing pattern to the OM61X to easily fabricate a 1/2" boiler plate adapter, to said motor. Does that get me anywhere near the ballpark of those M-119s? I HATE SLUSHBOXES. I'll deal with them, but I'd rather row my own any day of the week.
I must say your cheap-assed late model V8 Benz has my pragmatism in overload...particularly since I'm a lazy assed musician and would perhaps just rather buy what I'm trying to build (if not something better) and skip the whole headache. I'm not saying I'm doing it yet - I'm kind of a masochist like that.
What kind of mileage do those things get? Four speed auto, right? Does the W124 suspension take to spring cutting like the W123 cars?
Just in the interest of, um, a fair comparison to Blashphemy, y'know...
CID Vicious
01-06-2010, 03:10 PM #29I'm pretty sure it is. While LA is a big place with a lot of car nuts, every so often you see a one-off and this is likely to be one of them. I'd almost swear this is the car I passed on a couple of years ago, didn't have the 4.5 badges (I'd started working for the factory technician who had a 300SE 6.3 by that time, got the whole 'lesson' about that for mistaking the two), and if I was considering getting it, it was because it was under a grand.
Unless the guy swapped the rear out for either a good solid axle setup or a later IRS design (unlikely) I wouldn't want the car anyway. Swing axles, hell, even the Beetle and Corvair builders ditch those things. And man, that car is far beyond 'tapped' in the rear. It's a parts car unless you're rich and it was your dead dad's or something, but then it wouldn't be on craigslist...
Ok, so here's a question: the W58 has a close enough bellhousing pattern to the OM61X to easily fabricate a 1/2" boiler plate adapter, to said motor. Does that get me anywhere near the ballpark of those M-119s? I HATE SLUSHBOXES. I'll deal with them, but I'd rather row my own any day of the week.
I must say your cheap-assed late model V8 Benz has my pragmatism in overload...particularly since I'm a lazy assed musician and would perhaps just rather buy what I'm trying to build (if not something better) and skip the whole headache. I'm not saying I'm doing it yet - I'm kind of a masochist like that.
What kind of mileage do those things get? Four speed auto, right? Does the W124 suspension take to spring cutting like the W123 cars?
Just in the interest of, um, a fair comparison to Blashphemy, y'know...
Speaking of GSXR, it's about time for him to weigh in here!
Info about putting a manual behind an M-119 http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/show...p?t=113668
Yes, a four speed auto with a fairly low first gear and direct drive fourth. I like to milk the: "I've got those awful 2.24s back there!" thing but the truth is the overall ratios aren't as bad as you would think. Overall first gear ratio is 8.67 vs. 9.58 for that Dakota R/T or 9.425 for your 9C1 LT1 Chevy "B" body (3.06 X 3.08). I've already proven you don't need super low gears to be able to hold your own. If you could pull off a five or six speed swap then you'd be able to get away with putting lower gears in the back and still have a tall final drive ratio because of the overdrive(s)
The spring stuff: I know you can get away with MINOR cutting but I can't for the life of me remember where the thread is that proves it. Be aware though that most Benz guys are against any mods that aren't either: A) Totally factory because the Benz engineers were completely infallible
or B) Something that involves spending obscene amounts of money because if it's not expensive, it's not good. This is slowly changing though as more folks like us are invading the hobby. This is not to say the Benz guys aren't good guys cause they are, it's just that they can be a bit narrow visioned sometimes. You'll have to get used to that. After a while, you'll get to the point where you can tell the guys who know what they are talking about apart from the guys who don't.
I've never lowered any of my cars because I don't like slowing for speed bumps.
Really, these cars handle damn good on their own and the only upgrade I feel they need is a upgrade from 15s to 16s. That alone makes a huge difference.
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
I'm averaging about 20 MPG in mixed city/highway driving with a very heavy foot. I know my 2.24s are helping me here. GSXR maintains that a swap to 2.65s would help performance greatly without hurting fuel economy too much and he is in fact going to do said swap to his E420. (If he hasn't already).
Speaking of GSXR, it's about time for him to weigh in here!
Info about putting a manual behind an M-119 http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/show...p?t=113668
Yes, a four speed auto with a fairly low first gear and direct drive fourth. I like to milk the: "I've got those awful 2.24s back there!" thing but the truth is the overall ratios aren't as bad as you would think. Overall first gear ratio is 8.67 vs. 9.58 for that Dakota R/T or 9.425 for your 9C1 LT1 Chevy "B" body (3.06 X 3.08). I've already proven you don't need super low gears to be able to hold your own. If you could pull off a five or six speed swap then you'd be able to get away with putting lower gears in the back and still have a tall final drive ratio because of the overdrive(s)
The spring stuff: I know you can get away with MINOR cutting but I can't for the life of me remember where the thread is that proves it. Be aware though that most Benz guys are against any mods that aren't either: A) Totally factory because the Benz engineers were completely infallible or B) Something that involves spending obscene amounts of money because if it's not expensive, it's not good.
This is slowly changing though as more folks like us are invading the hobby. This is not to say the Benz guys aren't good guys cause they are, it's just that they can be a bit narrow visioned sometimes. You'll have to get used to that. After a while, you'll get to the point where you can tell the guys who know what they are talking about apart from the guys who don't.
I've never lowered any of my cars because I don't like slowing for speed bumps.
Really, these cars handle damn good on their own and the only upgrade I feel they need is a upgrade from 15s to 16s. That alone makes a huge difference.
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
Ironically, the 240D spring is stiffer now with a coil cut off than it would have been stock, but the couple of people running the 240D spring stock haven't reported this behavior. The car, being lowered, should be on the bump stops before the springs coil bind. So I'm going to investigate.
This is usually the step the 'high end bench racers' refuse to take. I happen to work for an aerospace engineer and I can tell you, people with that mentality - although they're certainly the people you want around if you absolutely, positively want it done right - aren't exactly the first to say 'let's just try it and see if it works'. Now I have a set of 300D front springs with two coils cut in the front of the 240D; ideal, as it's lowered but not ridiculously so, and way stiffer. Now I might have to get some stockers for the front of the 300D, but at least the next guy who wants to try it knows. What I've noticed is that, while the engineer mentality can and does keep people from hacking their car to bits for no good reason, it doesn't necessarily add to the overall knowledge of the task at hand. For instance: someone could have said 'that Chevy V8, it's good stock but you won't get much more out of it' when it was new. Someone screwed around with it, and lo and behold...in this case, if someone was thinking of using a 240D spring as an alternative to cutting for a 300D, I have some real-world info on that, not just another opinion.
I haven't read through that whole thing but I did come across that article on altering the signals from various sensors for power gains. Very interesting, I'll continue combing through it, though I just found a cheap Chevy truck with a 350 that I'm currently waiting to hear back from the boss about. Running and driving, tags out of date, cheap. They come up all the time, so I'm not worried about missing out on this one. The thing about the Chevy is, I've come across the parts for free a lot of times (that TPI intake was sitting on the sidewalk in Venice waiting for me!), cams, intakes, heads. The appeal of that vs. the appeal of superior initial engineering, the trade off being that ANYTHING you'd want to do to a SBC (twin turbo? OHC/32v conversion? Running off of rare Ganymedian chrystals? Well not that last one...YET!) has been done to it before. Being a pioneer is cool - but it's also a pain in the ass!
One of the things about the 400E so far that I've noticed is that it's a 'cammy' motor. It's a great design for many purposes, but ironically fuel economy isn't exactly one of them. You'd figure a 32v 4.2l V8 in a 3600lb car would get better mileage than a 9C1, 5.7l OHV 4000lb car would. But it doesn't seem like it does, at least not any kind of difference to shout from the rooftops. 17city, 26hwy for the Chevy. That same motor would get the same or better in my car, even better with the 5 speed. Torque peaks. It takes a bit of work (depending on your starting point) but the Chevy will rev just as high, too. That's one of the factors so far in my continued exploration of this project, is that one wouldn't necessarily give much up in the mpg department in normal driving. Of course, keeping the foot in line is another story altogether
. Of course, at the time MB wasn't about to revamp its bread and butter automatic to add overdrive either. Being 'saddled' with either car, I'd probably want the 400E more from a driver's standpoint, and since the 9C1s aren't getting any cheaper or easier to find...it's hard to have the choice between the two for the same money and go with the Chevy, unless you want to tow 5000 lbs and want the biggest back seat I've ever seen in a car. Six of one, half a dozen of the other...
For all of the Benz people who've talked about the Toyota five speeds I'm exactly the only guy I know of that has one, that's set one down next to a W123 and eyeballed it. Which is kind of funny, I haven't been to a yard since Thanksgiving, and there's people who go all of the time, one wonders why someone didn't whip out a tape measure a long time ago.
One can assume 'this is going to work' because you want it to;
One can assume 'this isn't going to to work' because you're afraid of failing;
Both are assumptions until proven otherwise.
"If you never fail, it's a sign you're playing it safe." - Woody Allen.
Hah! Speaking of dudes who like Asian broads (and their daughters!)...
CID Vicious
01-07-2010, 10:55 AM #31Oh, yeah, I'm prepared for such things. Even on the W123's there's this attitude of 'you can't possibly be thinking about cutting springs'. Um, yeah, I am, I did, and it's probably the best investment I've made in the car thus far. I might have to go get another pair of stock 300D springs for the 300D though - really easy to get the front on the bumpstops now that it's settled. I'm going to have a friend sit on the front while I peek through the wheel and see if it's really coil bound, or whether I can maybe trim the stops a bit.
Ironically, the 240D spring is stiffer now with a coil cut off than it would have been stock, but the couple of people running the 240D spring stock haven't reported this behavior. The car, being lowered, should be on the bump stops before the springs coil bind. So I'm going to investigate.
This is usually the step the 'high end bench racers' refuse to take. I happen to work for an aerospace engineer and I can tell you, people with that mentality - although they're certainly the people you want around if you absolutely, positively want it done right - aren't exactly the first to say 'let's just try it and see if it works'. Now I have a set of 300D front springs with two coils cut in the front of the 240D; ideal, as it's lowered but not ridiculously so, and way stiffer. Now I might have to get some stockers for the front of the 300D, but at least the next guy who wants to try it knows. What I've noticed is that, while the engineer mentality can and does keep people from hacking their car to bits for no good reason, it doesn't necessarily add to the overall knowledge of the task at hand. For instance: someone could have said 'that Chevy V8, it's good stock but you won't get much more out of it' when it was new. Someone screwed around with it, and lo and behold...in this case, if someone was thinking of using a 240D spring as an alternative to cutting for a 300D, I have some real-world info on that, not just another opinion.
I haven't read through that whole thing but I did come across that article on altering the signals from various sensors for power gains. Very interesting, I'll continue combing through it, though I just found a cheap Chevy truck with a 350 that I'm currently waiting to hear back from the boss about. Running and driving, tags out of date, cheap. They come up all the time, so I'm not worried about missing out on this one. The thing about the Chevy is, I've come across the parts for free a lot of times (that TPI intake was sitting on the sidewalk in Venice waiting for me!), cams, intakes, heads. The appeal of that vs. the appeal of superior initial engineering, the trade off being that ANYTHING you'd want to do to a SBC (twin turbo? OHC/32v conversion? Running off of rare Ganymedian chrystals? Well not that last one...YET!) has been done to it before. Being a pioneer is cool - but it's also a pain in the ass!
One of the things about the 400E so far that I've noticed is that it's a 'cammy' motor. It's a great design for many purposes, but ironically fuel economy isn't exactly one of them. You'd figure a 32v 4.2l V8 in a 3600lb car would get better mileage than a 9C1, 5.7l OHV 4000lb car would. But it doesn't seem like it does, at least not any kind of difference to shout from the rooftops. 17city, 26hwy for the Chevy. That same motor would get the same or better in my car, even better with the 5 speed. Torque peaks. It takes a bit of work (depending on your starting point) but the Chevy will rev just as high, too. That's one of the factors so far in my continued exploration of this project, is that one wouldn't necessarily give much up in the mpg department in normal driving. Of course, keeping the foot in line is another story altogether .
Of course, at the time MB wasn't about to revamp its bread and butter automatic to add overdrive either. Being 'saddled' with either car, I'd probably want the 400E more from a driver's standpoint, and since the 9C1s aren't getting any cheaper or easier to find...it's hard to have the choice between the two for the same money and go with the Chevy, unless you want to tow 5000 lbs and want the biggest back seat I've ever seen in a car. Six of one, half a dozen of the other...
For all of the Benz people who've talked about the Toyota five speeds I'm exactly the only guy I know of that has one, that's set one down next to a W123 and eyeballed it. Which is kind of funny, I haven't been to a yard since Thanksgiving, and there's people who go all of the time, one wonders why someone didn't whip out a tape measure a long time ago.
One can assume 'this is going to work' because you want it to;
One can assume 'this isn't going to to work' because you're afraid of failing;
Both are assumptions until proven otherwise.
"If you never fail, it's a sign you're playing it safe." - Woody Allen.
Hah! Speaking of dudes who like Asian broads (and their daughters!)...
Also, not to split hairs, my 400E is actually 3660 pounds.
You can't go by EPA ratings, they are notoriously inaccurate. I've always found Car & Driver's real world fuel economy numbers to be way more indicative of what a lead foot driver will get. They averaged 20 MPG out of a 93 400E (just like me!) and they averaged only 16 MPG out of a LT1 Impala SS.
Be sure to read that thread all the way to the end. The best stuff is there! Not to spoil the ending, but it turns out that a lot of my tricks aren't necessary! They were helpful, but only because I hadn't tried the most effective mod yet.
Also be sure to dwell a little longer on the initial price of admission difference. A car that was $60,000 is now under $1,000 in decent shape no less! , a car that was only $22,500 (for an Impala SS, I'm sure the 9C1s were considerably less than that) is now, well you know.
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
Seriously, This car is capable of much better fuel economy, I'm just way too heavy with the gas pedal. When I said a "very heavy foot", that was putting it mildly!
Also, not to split hairs, my 400E is actually 3660 pounds.
You can't go by EPA ratings, they are notoriously inaccurate. I've always found Car & Driver's real world fuel economy numbers to be way more indicative of what a lead foot driver will get. They averaged 20 MPG out of a 93 400E (just like me!) and they averaged only 16 MPG out of a LT1 Impala SS.
Be sure to read that thread all the way to the end. The best stuff is there! Not to spoil the ending, but it turns out that a lot of my tricks aren't necessary! They were helpful, but only because I hadn't tried the most effective mod yet.
Also be sure to dwell a little longer on the initial price of admission difference. A car that was $60,000 is now under $1,000 in decent shape no less! , a car that was only $22,500 (for an Impala SS, I'm sure the 9C1s were considerably less than that) is now, well you know.
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
The 9C1 needs, at minimum, a panhard conversion and a good spring/shock upgrade to really play, but the parts are there. I'll have to dig up the video but I used to have this one of an SS just tearing the ass out of an autocross course in a manner that shouldn't be possible in such a huge car. I'm sure it's got aftermarket A arms with real geometry, god knows what in the back, big sticky (expensive) tires. All of that stuff erodes the 9C1/SS value in my eyes, because I'm far from a 'typical' drag race guy. For a car you can buy and tear up a twisty road with on the way home, I'm sure the 400E is the way to go.
I peeked at the M119 manual conversion thread, had to stop because I was laughing too hard. 5-6k for a manual conversion, and that's on a car WITH factory provisions for the pedals and clutch? Same trans in the SS/9C1 isn't that involved and that car never came with a manual and the G-Body parts that kind of work are really, really rare. (When's the last time you saw a stick Monte Carlo sitting in the junkyard?). So the pedal and the affiliated parts had to be adapted (with the SS guys, that means billet!), but then there's lots more of them out there, more owners clamoring for a stick, and the bellhousing at least works (the clutch is a little trickier, something to do with the F-Body clutch at the time).
Man, for 5k the car would be done already - paint included!
One of the things that makes me shy away is that for the longest time, none of those sensors and whatnot will fail. But when they do...I got hit for a 900 dollar fuel pump in my SE-R. (If you break down in the south, do NOT let them know you're heading 'back to New York'.) Aside from the 250 dollar 5 mile tow, the used pump holder (sick and the real term is eluding me, the pump seized and burned up the connectors, real nice thought to have when it's by a BOMB!), and the 300 dollar pump, a day's delay...I was just stuck. No idea where I was, where the parts yards were, kind figured it was the pump (but it could have been the relay, could have been the ignition, could have been...), and had no idea that the tank didn't need to be dropped. Luckily this happened the ONE time I actually had enough money to cover it and get RAPED by 'your friendly neighborhood, small town mechanic'. Most times I'm running on fumes and a prayer.
That little fisting was from my driving a 93 Japanese compact car with no clues as to it being a 'special' model. God help me, calling up an unknown garage and going 'I got this Mercedes that won't start...'
Hint: bring your own lube, it's 50 bucks a tube at the garage
.
CID Vicious
01-07-2010, 05:14 PM #33I can't say as I've never driven one. I know it's rated at 22mpg highway, and I'll also say this: for a leadfoot driver it probably will return better mileage than the Chevy driven in a similar manner. The mileage of the Chevies certainly wouldn't apply at the 80 plus freeway eating speeds I likes in my 240D (the car just seems happy as a clam at that speed - and since I'm weaving through dozens of cars at a time, ALL of which have a better power/weight ratio by a factor of 2 or more at least, I'm happy, too.
The 9C1 needs, at minimum, a panhard conversion and a good spring/shock upgrade to really play, but the parts are there. I'll have to dig up the video but I used to have this one of an SS just tearing the ass out of an autocross course in a manner that shouldn't be possible in such a huge car. I'm sure it's got aftermarket A arms with real geometry, god knows what in the back, big sticky (expensive) tires. All of that stuff erodes the 9C1/SS value in my eyes, because I'm far from a 'typical' drag race guy. For a car you can buy and tear up a twisty road with on the way home, I'm sure the 400E is the way to go.
I peeked at the M119 manual conversion thread, had to stop because I was laughing too hard. 5-6k for a manual conversion, and that's on a car WITH factory provisions for the pedals and clutch? Same trans in the SS/9C1 isn't that involved and that car never came with a manual and the G-Body parts that kind of work are really, really rare. (When's the last time you saw a stick Monte Carlo sitting in the junkyard?). So the pedal and the affiliated parts had to be adapted (with the SS guys, that means billet!), but then there's lots more of them out there, more owners clamoring for a stick, and the bellhousing at least works (the clutch is a little trickier, something to do with the F-Body clutch at the time).
Man, for 5k the car would be done already - paint included!
One of the things that makes me shy away is that for the longest time, none of those sensors and whatnot will fail. But when they do...I got hit for a 900 dollar fuel pump in my SE-R. (If you break down in the south, do NOT let them know you're heading 'back to New York'.) Aside from the 250 dollar 5 mile tow, the used pump holder (sick and the real term is eluding me, the pump seized and burned up the connectors, real nice thought to have when it's by a BOMB!), and the 300 dollar pump, a day's delay...I was just stuck. No idea where I was, where the parts yards were, kind figured it was the pump (but it could have been the relay, could have been the ignition, could have been...), and had no idea that the tank didn't need to be dropped. Luckily this happened the ONE time I actually had enough money to cover it and get RAPED by 'your friendly neighborhood, small town mechanic'. Most times I'm running on fumes and a prayer.
That little fisting was from my driving a 93 Japanese compact car with no clues as to it being a 'special' model. God help me, calling up an unknown garage and going 'I got this Mercedes that won't start...'
Hint: bring your own lube, it's 50 bucks a tube at the garage .
Yeah, everybody who's not from the South is a "Damn Yankee" and is fair game. That's why you just get on the web through your cell phone now-a-days and look up the problem and the solution there, and fix it yourself. Also AAA is only 100 bucks a year and I have it even though I own my own tow truck! My hardhead nature for years made me resist getting AAA, my cheapness too but it is just too worth it. Just getting someone to come open your car up after you locked the keys in it is over a 100 bucks. Pays for itself right there!
Back to the mileage difference: don't forget fuel costs are going back up and I fear we are going to see $4.50 gas again real soon. At 3.50 a gallon, 12,000 miles a year, 16 MPG = $2,625 and 20 MPG = $2,100 which = a $525 shavings a year. Five years = 2,625! Cool! A free years worth of gas! Enough to run the Imp for a year or the 400E for 15 months!
On second thought, go with the Chevy so I can sell this bell housing!
Regards, Eric,
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
I was adding to my previous post when you posted. Check it again. I only linked you to that manual conversion thread so you could get the technical info on what's involved in the swap. Read it all the way though. I would never humor those goofballs that want that kind of money and I would never expect you to either. Remember what I said how there are a lot of Benz guys who just love to spend money? Well there's also no end to guys who are all too happy to take it.
Yeah, everybody who's not from the South is a "Damn Yankee" and is fair game. That's why you just get on the web through your cell phone now-a-days and look up the problem and the solution there, and fix it yourself. Also AAA is only 100 bucks a year and I have it even though I own my own tow truck! My hardhead nature for years made me resist getting AAA, my cheapness too but it is just too worth it. Just getting someone to come open your car up after you locked the keys in it is over a 100 bucks. Pays for itself right there!
Back to the mileage difference: don't forget fuel costs are going back up and I fear we are going to see $4.50 gas again real soon. At 3.50 a gallon, 12,000 miles a year, 16 MPG = $2,625 and 20 MPG = $2,100 which = a $525 shavings a year. Five years = 2,625! Cool! A free years worth of gas! Enough to run the Imp for a year or the 400E for 15 months!
On second thought, go with the Chevy so I can sell this bell housing!
Regards, Eric,
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
. Yeah, I'll have to keep on reading. As long as there's a factory flywheel, there's a way to a manual trans without having to bust the wallet (relatively - the easiest way is just to buy a stick car in the first place!). Most people have no clue that with the properly chosen pressure plate and disc you can essentially mate any engine to any trans, bolt pattern aside, so these 'kits' are for people like that.
What I might be interested in is that motor outside of the car itself. Megasquirt, removal of all unnecessary BS...power/liter is impressive, especially for the time - most engines putting out that much power back then were either way larger or had a pair of turbos bolted up. Manual trans, in a nice bare bones car like a 123 (nothing besides the vacuum locks are any more complicated than any other car of the era - just better built).
For those who want go outlaw, a '400E conversion' would work well (I'm thinking) for a 300D of the era, although there's fewer tuning limitations on that diesel motor vs the 61X. Maybe if someone gets one for a 606 swap...pointless anywhere but Kalifornia, really. In Florida I could probably Pro Street the 240D and it wouldn't raise a cop's eyebrow (at least as far as the swap itself was concerned). 454 with an 8-71 chrome blower sticking out of the hood, hello occifer, just getting some milk from the corner store... Here they have assholes where that's their whole job, catching the guys who pull their TPI and cats after the inspection. I'm sure it's so totally worth it...
CID Vicious
01-07-2010, 05:57 PM #35Yeah, I knew I fucked up when that slipped out of my mouth...'Where are you headed to?' "Oh, just New...................York." Ain't nothin' 'New-' that I could figure out that was down south, and even though I do a great impersonation of a hick (sometimes even when I'm trying!) it just wasn't going to fool this rural South Carolinian. The rednecks in Florida are Yale graduates in comparison to some other places .
Yeah, I'll have to keep on reading. As long as there's a factory flywheel, there's a way to a manual trans without having to bust the wallet (relatively - the easiest way is just to buy a stick car in the first place!). Most people have no clue that with the properly chosen pressure plate and disc you can essentially mate any engine to any trans, bolt pattern aside, so these 'kits' are for people like that.
What I might be interested in is that motor outside of the car itself. Megasquirt, removal of all unnecessary BS...power/liter is impressive, especially for the time - most engines putting out that much power back then were either way larger or had a pair of turbos bolted up. Manual trans, in a nice bare bones car like a 123 (nothing besides the vacuum locks are any more complicated than any other car of the era - just better built).
For those who want go outlaw, a '400E conversion' would work well (I'm thinking) for a 300D of the era, although there's fewer tuning limitations on that diesel motor vs the 61X. Maybe if someone gets one for a 606 swap...pointless anywhere but Kalifornia, really. In Florida I could probably Pro Street the 240D and it wouldn't raise a cop's eyebrow (at least as far as the swap itself was concerned). 454 with an 8-71 chrome blower sticking out of the hood, hello occifer, just getting some milk from the corner store... Here they have assholes where that's their whole job, catching the guys who pull their TPI and cats after the inspection. I'm sure it's so totally worth it...
It's good you can laugh about it now. (You are laughing, right?)
I was still adding to the previous post again.
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
LOL! "New............Carolina?" Or maybe: Neworth Carolina?
It's good you can laugh about it now. (You are laughing, right?)
I was still adding to the previous post again.
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
Also, there are too many good deals out there to settle for one with high miles. Try to hold out for a car with no more than 150,000 miles. I know I went a bit over that (170,000 miles) with my new one but remember, it was only $575!
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
I forgot to mention: Don't get a 92. They don't make as much power and they don't get nearly the fuel economy. They have a lower compression engine and I think the first generation ECUs weren't as good at part throttle fuel management as the second generation 92 ECUs are. They also have the lame, troublesome, older style belt tensionors that are really too hard to switch over to the newer, good style so you just wind up stuck with it. But if you are getting a 93, try to get one made before March as that's when I think they made the switch to the plastic oil tubes, which aren't as good. (We probably should talk more at some point in person so I can show you how to easily tell them apart and also so I can cover some other things so you can get a good 400E/E420.)
Also, there are too many good deals out there to settle for one with high miles. Try to hold out for a car with no more than 150,000 miles. I know I went a bit over that (170,000 miles) with my new one but remember, it was only $575!
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
(01-07-2010, 06:12 PM)400Eric LOL! "New............Carolina?"
"New Carolina? Yewww ain't from 'round 'ere, are ya, boy?"
This is good to know. I won't feel bad at all if I decide to go with a 400E, since the discussion has been pretty good here, none of the mud slinging BS you get over at the RX7 forum for having a V and an 8 in the same sentence. ("Rotaries are better than every other engine, that's why only Mazda makes one! (For the next year or so, maybe)). If someone wants to know the pros and cons, how the gassholes like me and how the OM617 die hards feel about it, it's in there.
What might be the deciding factor for me is simply time - I'm being asked for more and more these days. My boss had me figure out how much I was trying to 'save' doing something vs. just saving up for it, and it was eye opening. I stick behind the premise of the project, whether I decide to really keep my head and just turbo the 616 and be happy with that. Perfectly adequate, and I catch myself, fooling myself about my 'need' for such a car vs a very childish want for one. I might get two grand into this car and WISH I'd gotten a 400E. Or just a fuckin' Camaro even.
The 240D, once you get past the obvious, it's just a great car. With the cold air intake (which I swear makes more of a difference than it has a right to - no placebo effect here, either, I really noticed it today - my roommate has been driving me around lately, so I haven't driven the car since the canyon run. It has to have found some power in there someplace, because it didn't take off as easy when I had my missing rear exhaust (only the resonator), and I certainly didn't add horsepower with a turbo muffler (Cherry Bomb, not stock) and crinkle pipe to that. The EGR butterfly made some difference but this is on top of that. Just enough to make her willing. 'Her', whatever, I call it Donkey - I saw the 'snout', the grille in the reflection of a new truck's tailgate, and it looked like Donkey's nose from Retarded Animal Babies.
![[Image: 7002268v1_240x240_Front.jpg]](http://images8.cafepress.com/product/7002268v1_240x240_Front.jpg)
So now what do you call it when you catch some fool sleeping and run away from 'em in a 240D? You guessed it -
![[Image: da9d28372a711b2f5abe36b5f6456a40.jpg]](http://content.ytmnd.com/content/d/a/9/da9d28372a711b2f5abe36b5f6456a40.jpg)
And yes, the figure in the background is doing exactly what you're cringing at. "Whoo-ee, I'm a Butter Dumpster!"
Speaking of the Devil, I was looking at GM High Performance today and there's a retrofit kit for the TPI so it can run an LS1 system - coil packs, a dizzy-style crank sensor and a few other items. Apparently they could get it to idle steady down o 650rpm, not bad for a 383. Blew the dying transmission on the dyno though, so no numbers. Not in my lifetime but it's yet another option.
Or, I can get an old GS-series Suzuki from the 70s/80s and go stupid fast anytime I dare for about 500 bucks or so. That's an option well worth considering. The 240D can get converted any old time, and I don't plan on getting rid of it anytime soon. The Donkey Punching will commence with vengeance (the kind of vengeance where you talk about V8s as much as I do and you've been dring a 240D for a year!) when the turbo goes in! And that can be done in a weekend.
Further note on the 'still not hugely impressed with the 300D vs 240D' front - my ALDA is missing! I knew the guy who owned it previously had to have been an enthusiast of some sort, I just looked down at the pump yesterday and said "I recognize that plunger...!" So I've got a K26 300D with no ALDA...well, now I really gotta get to the bottom of this fuel thing. Got the new line today, Goodyear Fuel Injection hose, going to replace them tomorrow. I knew I was getting this intermittent loss of power, but I didn't figure on that being maybe 25% as prevalent and I'm thinking 'well, the power's back...what's left of it'. I do only have 1200 in that car besides the spring compressor, including registration...hmm, further investigation is necessary.
CID Vicious
01-08-2010, 12:22 AM #38(01-07-2010, 06:12 PM)400Eric LOL! "New............Carolina?"
"New Carolina? Yewww ain't from 'round 'ere, are ya, boy?"
This is good to know. I won't feel bad at all if I decide to go with a 400E, since the discussion has been pretty good here, none of the mud slinging BS you get over at the RX7 forum for having a V and an 8 in the same sentence. ("Rotaries are better than every other engine, that's why only Mazda makes one! (For the next year or so, maybe)). If someone wants to know the pros and cons, how the gassholes like me and how the OM617 die hards feel about it, it's in there.
What might be the deciding factor for me is simply time - I'm being asked for more and more these days. My boss had me figure out how much I was trying to 'save' doing something vs. just saving up for it, and it was eye opening. I stick behind the premise of the project, whether I decide to really keep my head and just turbo the 616 and be happy with that. Perfectly adequate, and I catch myself, fooling myself about my 'need' for such a car vs a very childish want for one. I might get two grand into this car and WISH I'd gotten a 400E. Or just a fuckin' Camaro even.
The 240D, once you get past the obvious, it's just a great car. With the cold air intake (which I swear makes more of a difference than it has a right to - no placebo effect here, either, I really noticed it today - my roommate has been driving me around lately, so I haven't driven the car since the canyon run. It has to have found some power in there someplace, because it didn't take off as easy when I had my missing rear exhaust (only the resonator), and I certainly didn't add horsepower with a turbo muffler (Cherry Bomb, not stock) and crinkle pipe to that. The EGR butterfly made some difference but this is on top of that. Just enough to make her willing. 'Her', whatever, I call it Donkey - I saw the 'snout', the grille in the reflection of a new truck's tailgate, and it looked like Donkey's nose from Retarded Animal Babies.
So now what do you call it when you catch some fool sleeping and run away from 'em in a 240D? You guessed it -
And yes, the figure in the background is doing exactly what you're cringing at. "Whoo-ee, I'm a Butter Dumpster!"
Speaking of the Devil, I was looking at GM High Performance today and there's a retrofit kit for the TPI so it can run an LS1 system - coil packs, a dizzy-style crank sensor and a few other items. Apparently they could get it to idle steady down o 650rpm, not bad for a 383. Blew the dying transmission on the dyno though, so no numbers. Not in my lifetime but it's yet another option.
Or, I can get an old GS-series Suzuki from the 70s/80s and go stupid fast anytime I dare for about 500 bucks or so. That's an option well worth considering. The 240D can get converted any old time, and I don't plan on getting rid of it anytime soon. The Donkey Punching will commence with vengeance (the kind of vengeance where you talk about V8s as much as I do and you've been dring a 240D for a year!) when the turbo goes in! And that can be done in a weekend.
Further note on the 'still not hugely impressed with the 300D vs 240D' front - my ALDA is missing! I knew the guy who owned it previously had to have been an enthusiast of some sort, I just looked down at the pump yesterday and said "I recognize that plunger...!" So I've got a K26 300D with no ALDA...well, now I really gotta get to the bottom of this fuel thing. Got the new line today, Goodyear Fuel Injection hose, going to replace them tomorrow. I knew I was getting this intermittent loss of power, but I didn't figure on that being maybe 25% as prevalent and I'm thinking 'well, the power's back...what's left of it'. I do only have 1200 in that car besides the spring compressor, including registration...hmm, further investigation is necessary.
You're lucky to have such a wise boss. Most of the bosses I've had in my life were idiots. I've had a select few who were wise and I learned a lot from them including valuable lessons about life. Made going to work feel like it was really worth it because there was knowledge to be gained that was worth more than the pay. In other words, the life lessions lasted longer than the money did.
I'm having the same dollars vs. time vs. is any of this really even gonna be worth it? struggle in a way in that I want a really fast diesel car that gets great fuel economy too. What I'm finding in reading threads here and elsewhere, and what I think even GSXR's been trying to tell me is that a car like that is gonna cost a lot of time AND money which is something I have neither of. Frankly, I'm pretty bummed about it and I'm scared that gas is going way back up and I want to be off of that stuff BEFORE it does. I've looked at turbo diesel power, propane with a turbo, propane injection with a turbo, natural gas with a turbo, etc. No easy solutions but I still really want off of gas and whatever I end up doing has to at least equal Benzer 3's acceleration performance and not cost a ton of time and money in the process. Basically, I want a cheap, poor man's 335D without the cost or reliability or urea issues. Can't be done here in America I guess. At least not for the amount of time and money I can afford.
A few posts back (and on another thread) you spoke of the EPA highway ratings which, again, are crazy inaccurate but I wanted to clarify that it was the M103 300E that only got 22MPG (18/22) according to them. The 400E got 24 (18/24) and the Imp SS got 25 (17/25), not the 26 you stated elsewhere but again, what really matters are those 16 and 20 real world, driven by real guys numbers.
Why did the M103 3.0 car do so poorly? Two reasons: 1) 3.07s vs. 2.24s. Like you observed on that other thread, the small engine revving higher vs. the bigger engine revving lower thing (not that the 4.2 is big, but it is quite a bit bigger than the 3.0) and 2) CIS-E always on and always squirting fuel injection vs. LH sequential only squirts at the right time fuel injection.
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
"What might be the deciding factor for me is simply time - I'm being asked for more and more these days. My boss had me figure out how much I was trying to 'save' doing something vs. just saving up for it, and it was eye opening." This is something really worth dwelling on for a while. And then a while longer! A VERY VALID point.
You're lucky to have such a wise boss. Most of the bosses I've had in my life were idiots. I've had a select few who were wise and I learned a lot from them including valuable lessons about life. Made going to work feel like it was really worth it because there was knowledge to be gained that was worth more than the pay. In other words, the life lessions lasted longer than the money did.
I'm having the same dollars vs. time vs. is any of this really even gonna be worth it? struggle in a way in that I want a really fast diesel car that gets great fuel economy too. What I'm finding in reading threads here and elsewhere, and what I think even GSXR's been trying to tell me is that a car like that is gonna cost a lot of time AND money which is something I have neither of. Frankly, I'm pretty bummed about it and I'm scared that gas is going way back up and I want to be off of that stuff BEFORE it does. I've looked at turbo diesel power, propane with a turbo, propane injection with a turbo, natural gas with a turbo, etc. No easy solutions but I still really want off of gas and whatever I end up doing has to at least equal Benzer 3's acceleration performance and not cost a ton of time and money in the process. Basically, I want a cheap, poor man's 335D without the cost or reliability or urea issues. Can't be done here in America I guess. At least not for the amount of time and money I can afford.
A few posts back (and on another thread) you spoke of the EPA highway ratings which, again, are crazy inaccurate but I wanted to clarify that it was the M103 300E that only got 22MPG (18/22) according to them. The 400E got 24 (18/24) and the Imp SS got 25 (17/25), not the 26 you stated elsewhere but again, what really matters are those 16 and 20 real world, driven by real guys numbers.
Why did the M103 3.0 car do so poorly? Two reasons: 1) 3.07s vs. 2.24s. Like you observed on that other thread, the small engine revving higher vs. the bigger engine revving lower thing (not that the 4.2 is big, but it is quite a bit bigger than the 3.0) and 2) CIS-E always on and always squirting fuel injection vs. LH sequential only squirts at the right time fuel injection.
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
The 617a/W58 is still an option as it's the reason I bought the trans in the first place, not necessarily for this project here. All I'd need is an adapter plate (easy fab), appropriate Toyota disc, and a 240D flywheel and pressure plate. The driveshaft will need to be custom but the same idea applies to a 617a with a W58 as it would with a Chevy - modify a Supra/Celica driveshaft for the appropriate length and use the Dodge U-joint end. Factory slip joint makes it work with this tranny while you have to add the joint to a Benz driveshaft to use U-Joints. Shouldn't cost more or be any more difficult than a MB four speed swap and will be more worthwhile - near-close-ratio spread with overdrive, as good a compromise as you can get in a five speed box.
The swap, according to those that have done it, can be done in a long weekend, and you're not short on a spare car to get to work on so you could take your time. Plus, the later model Mercedes aren't as stealthy as these cars and don't have the old-car mojo workin'. I get to feel like I'm driving a cool old car while I'm driving like I would in a modern one. 300D turbos fall out of the trees for good prices all day long on CL.
The more modern MB diesels are, well, more modern, but none of those motors are exactly blowing my doors off with cheap mods any more than the 617. However, a nice European sports sedan feel can be achieved with a 617a/manual, I'm convinced of that much. Whether it's going to ever give your 400E a run for it's money is a different question.
CID Vicious
01-09-2010, 12:12 AM #40I think if you keep the "poor man's" emphasis you'll be all right. W123 with a 606 swap, or just 617a/four speed. I'd add the motor to a 240D with manual everything, and then look at lightening things. Only that generation has that many diesels, the later models get scarce and expensive quick. W123s are dirt cheap, and while I didn't think they'd be performers on paper, they're proving me wrong. I'm going to withhold judgement on the 617a since I'm sure now that just getting some good lines put on and the air bled out will make a huge difference, and I'm almost certain that the Bowden cable was just way out of adjustment. I'm going to get the stock air cleaner back on and give it a run after the lines are swapped and see what it does.
The 617a/W58 is still an option as it's the reason I bought the trans in the first place, not necessarily for this project here. All I'd need is an adapter plate (easy fab), appropriate Toyota disc, and a 240D flywheel and pressure plate. The driveshaft will need to be custom but the same idea applies to a 617a with a W58 as it would with a Chevy - modify a Supra/Celica driveshaft for the appropriate length and use the Dodge U-joint end. Factory slip joint makes it work with this tranny while you have to add the joint to a Benz driveshaft to use U-Joints. Shouldn't cost more or be any more difficult than a MB four speed swap and will be more worthwhile - near-close-ratio spread with overdrive, as good a compromise as you can get in a five speed box.
The swap, according to those that have done it, can be done in a long weekend, and you're not short on a spare car to get to work on so you could take your time. Plus, the later model Mercedes aren't as stealthy as these cars and don't have the old-car mojo workin'. I get to feel like I'm driving a cool old car while I'm driving like I would in a modern one. 300D turbos fall out of the trees for good prices all day long on CL.
The more modern MB diesels are, well, more modern, but none of those motors are exactly blowing my doors off with cheap mods any more than the 617. However, a nice European sports sedan feel can be achieved with a 617a/manual, I'm convinced of that much. Whether it's going to ever give your 400E a run for it's money is a different question.
"I did not mean to offend, however I can only express to you what I have seen first hand. I just love when people bring me $80,000 automobiles looking to spend under $100 for repairs.
You are 100% correct with regards to my enthusiasm for this project, however I think you missed the point. My point was that I would not look forward to doing this sort of work for anyone else (With regards to Mercedes Hi-Po Internal Engine modifications) with all that I have seen from customers whom drive them.
I never meant to imply that YOU were cheep; I was only trying to be HONEST with you regarding the cost of such things. For example, a reman 560 to STOCK specs, using Genuine Mercedes-Benz replacement parts would run upwards of $10,000 (Just for the engine, no labor included). So we can now see where I was going with my claims.
You bring up a good point regarding my honesty, and how sometimes being honest with people will sometimes turn them off. Guess thats why I was never popular with the children over at BenzWorld.org.
I wish you the best in your endeavors and I promise to keep everyone posted on my progress with this overhaul. Sooner or later I will be forced to replace the engine in one of my 560's and that is what I plan to do, but even for ME, it will require lots of time and money, even though I am doing all the work myself.
Thanks, and I hope I didnt turn you off. Sounds like your budget is in the realm, however most shops will laugh at $15K when it comes to performance overhauls, ESP on a V8 Mercedes, and I am just being honest."
He was talking about how old school MB folk talk a good deal when it comes to mods, they're all for it until they find out what it actually costs.
I've been seeing 450SLs going for cheap lately...can't say I'm not intrigued. Basically a coupe/roadster version of our cars, most of the same things apply, but you start out with a V8. Is the M117 bolt pattern anywhere close to the OM617? The only thing that makes it suck (besides the late 70's hp numbers) is the three speed slushbox. And the reality that they'd need smog, too, and the only way you're making more power is to go forced induction. And...
CID Vicious
01-15-2010, 02:12 PM #41This is the kind of thing that frightens me. From Benzworld.org:
"I did not mean to offend, however I can only express to you what I have seen first hand. I just love when people bring me $80,000 automobiles looking to spend under $100 for repairs.
You are 100% correct with regards to my enthusiasm for this project, however I think you missed the point. My point was that I would not look forward to doing this sort of work for anyone else (With regards to Mercedes Hi-Po Internal Engine modifications) with all that I have seen from customers whom drive them.
I never meant to imply that YOU were cheep; I was only trying to be HONEST with you regarding the cost of such things. For example, a reman 560 to STOCK specs, using Genuine Mercedes-Benz replacement parts would run upwards of $10,000 (Just for the engine, no labor included). So we can now see where I was going with my claims.
You bring up a good point regarding my honesty, and how sometimes being honest with people will sometimes turn them off. Guess thats why I was never popular with the children over at BenzWorld.org.
I wish you the best in your endeavors and I promise to keep everyone posted on my progress with this overhaul. Sooner or later I will be forced to replace the engine in one of my 560's and that is what I plan to do, but even for ME, it will require lots of time and money, even though I am doing all the work myself.
Thanks, and I hope I didnt turn you off. Sounds like your budget is in the realm, however most shops will laugh at $15K when it comes to performance overhauls, ESP on a V8 Mercedes, and I am just being honest."
He was talking about how old school MB folk talk a good deal when it comes to mods, they're all for it until they find out what it actually costs.
I've been seeing 450SLs going for cheap lately...can't say I'm not intrigued. Basically a coupe/roadster version of our cars, most of the same things apply, but you start out with a V8. Is the M117 bolt pattern anywhere close to the OM617? The only thing that makes it suck (besides the late 70's hp numbers) is the three speed slushbox. And the reality that they'd need smog, too, and the only way you're making more power is to go forced induction. And...
Don't screw around with a two valve M.B. You can get a newer, more powerful, more efficient, cleaner, quicker, faster, etc. etc. car for no more money. Speaking as a guy who has a couple of CIS-E cars, I can tell you that a later LH car is way ahead of the game by a long shot. Same goes for the two valve vs. four valve thing.
The bottom line is I have never had a car that gives this combination of handling, speed, and fuel economy. It averages 20MPG with a lead foot, runs mid 14s with only a few changes that didn't cost me anything, and does 155 MPH governed. And it has four doors to boot! While there are now plenty of other cars out there that can do this and more, They still cost way more than I have in this one and/or they are not as durable. Can anybody here think of a RWD four door car that would do it better for less than 1,500 bucks?
If mid-14s isn't quick enough for you, there are things you can do that don't cost a fortune.
One (or two) of these gems will last you till all forms of fossil fuels become too prohibitively expensive and a new plan becomes necessary. (Hydrogen!)
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
You're making this too hard. If you blow the motor up, you go buy another whole car for less than a grand or do like I've done and have your spare 400E/E420 already. Just be sure to get one that has less than 150,000 miles (125,000 or less would be even better. Run a CarFax or whatever on the car to be sure) and you'll be good. These are easily 225,000 mile cars with 275,000 being common. It's very hard to hurt these cars. (You've been hanging around Chevys and Asian cars too long! Remember: Asian women, not Asian cars!)
Don't screw around with a two valve M.B. You can get a newer, more powerful, more efficient, cleaner, quicker, faster, etc. etc. car for no more money. Speaking as a guy who has a couple of CIS-E cars, I can tell you that a later LH car is way ahead of the game by a long shot. Same goes for the two valve vs. four valve thing.
The bottom line is I have never had a car that gives this combination of handling, speed, and fuel economy. It averages 20MPG with a lead foot, runs mid 14s with only a few changes that didn't cost me anything, and does 155 MPH governed. And it has four doors to boot! While there are now plenty of other cars out there that can do this and more, They still cost way more than I have in this one and/or they are not as durable. Can anybody here think of a RWD four door car that would do it better for less than 1,500 bucks?
If mid-14s isn't quick enough for you, there are things you can do that don't cost a fortune.
One (or two) of these gems will last you till all forms of fossil fuels become too prohibitively expensive and a new plan becomes necessary. (Hydrogen!)
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
). When I found out that they weigh in like a 300SD I was done. As a matter of fact, I was like 'may as well get a 450SE at that point.' How you make a smallish roadster weigh in like a two ton luxury sedan? Mercedes knows how!Oh well, I guess I might have to put the Blasphemy to rest. I stand by the idea - after all, people have been swapping SBCs into things that never came with them for a long time for a good reason - but I'm not seeing it happen to me, personally. I have an album to co-write, record, produce, and perform on, and there's a festival I'll likely be helping to promote in exchange for a time slot in June. Not to mention 40 hours a week working for roof and bread. Sinking X hours into a full on motor/transmission swap - from three different manufacturers, no less! - ain't happening before, oh, say, February...2012. If I had the motor, the welder, the tools and the cash...I'd be way better off than I am now, for sure!
I'll still probably get that bellhousing off of you. The W58 was chosen for it's ability to get behind either a SBC or a 61X with little difficulty. I have to get this 300D out the door soon and if my boss wants to play double or nothing I'm going to look for a coupe or wagon to convert to manual. (Was going to do it to this car but may as well go for the gusto if you're going to bother, and for resale a 300D with slight body damage vs a clean wagon or coupe, which would you sink the time/money into?). Maybe flipping that car will pay for my 400E. Never know when the 350/5 speed bug will bite, after all...
Hah, Asian women/Asian cars, buddy, I'm working on a little bit of poetry about that that I just know you'll dig. I still wouldn't mind a CRX though. I talk shit about the Civic, and then I go drive one...why fuck with anything else turning the front wheels? The CRX is the ultimate evolution of the old Mini Cooper. I remember having to retune my fave Vette in GT3 to beat my CRX on Laguna Seca. I'd get a car dialed in, do a time trial on that course with the best tires and one warm up lap. Whatever it did, it did, and for awhile that 800hp Vette was right behind a 280hp CRX. Same course, same driver, same 'tires' even - pretty telling. I had to actually detune the Vette down to about 650 hp (more and the corners just come up too fast, too hot) and I actually went faster and was able beat the lowly Honda!
Although, honestly, I got 1500 bucks, and there's a CRX or a decent 400E...no contest
. (Because the CRX will probably never get me laid! )I was gonna say something about a 'mister two' but that brings up bad memories of automotive stupidity...
CID Vicious
01-18-2010, 05:30 AM #43Yeah, I've been looking it over. I still haven't seen a 400E up for sale in my price range (which is laughable at the moment, but even in theory) just yet. I'm kind of trying to 'beat' it but for the moolah I guess not. I was looking at R107s for a minute, but too much crap to make 'em go and you're talking the same money. (Three speed auto? What, am I back in GM-land? ). When I found out that they weigh in like a 300SD I was done. As a matter of fact, I was like 'may as well get a 450SE at that point.' How you make a smallish roadster weigh in like a two ton luxury sedan? Mercedes knows how!
Oh well, I guess I might have to put the Blasphemy to rest. I stand by the idea - after all, people have been swapping SBCs into things that never came with them for a long time for a good reason - but I'm not seeing it happen to me, personally. I have an album to co-write, record, produce, and perform on, and there's a festival I'll likely be helping to promote in exchange for a time slot in June. Not to mention 40 hours a week working for roof and bread. Sinking X hours into a full on motor/transmission swap - from three different manufacturers, no less! - ain't happening before, oh, say, February...2012. If I had the motor, the welder, the tools and the cash...I'd be way better off than I am now, for sure!
I'll still probably get that bellhousing off of you. The W58 was chosen for it's ability to get behind either a SBC or a 61X with little difficulty. I have to get this 300D out the door soon and if my boss wants to play double or nothing I'm going to look for a coupe or wagon to convert to manual. (Was going to do it to this car but may as well go for the gusto if you're going to bother, and for resale a 300D with slight body damage vs a clean wagon or coupe, which would you sink the time/money into?). Maybe flipping that car will pay for my 400E. Never know when the 350/5 speed bug will bite, after all...
Hah, Asian women/Asian cars, buddy, I'm working on a little bit of poetry about that that I just know you'll dig. I still wouldn't mind a CRX though. I talk shit about the Civic, and then I go drive one...why fuck with anything else turning the front wheels? The CRX is the ultimate evolution of the old Mini Cooper. I remember having to retune my fave Vette in GT3 to beat my CRX on Laguna Seca. I'd get a car dialed in, do a time trial on that course with the best tires and one warm up lap. Whatever it did, it did, and for awhile that 800hp Vette was right behind a 280hp CRX. Same course, same driver, same 'tires' even - pretty telling. I had to actually detune the Vette down to about 650 hp (more and the corners just come up too fast, too hot) and I actually went faster and was able beat the lowly Honda!
Although, honestly, I got 1500 bucks, and there's a CRX or a decent 400E...no contest . (Because the CRX will probably never get me laid! )
I was gonna say something about a 'mister two' but that brings up bad memories of automotive stupidity...
The CRX did so well not because it was such a great design, but because the Vette is such a poor design! (Just kidding!)
Actually, it was simply because it was light! We tend to forget the importance of light weight!
Hey, speaking of those two, do you remember that "Grassroots Motorsports" car that was a cross between the two?
Can't wait for the poetry.
The only reason you're not finding a 400E/E420 right now is because you're looking for one. It always works like that. If you weren't looking for one, you'd be stubbing your toe on them everywhere you go. Don't give up.
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
MR2s are cop bait!
The CRX did so well not because it was such a great design, but because the Vette is such a poor design! (Just kidding!)
Actually, it was simply because it was light! We tend to forget the importance of light weight!
Hey, speaking of those two, do you remember that "Grassroots Motorsports" car that was a cross between the two?
Can't wait for the poetry.
The only reason you're not finding a 400E/E420 right now is because you're looking for one. It always works like that. If you weren't looking for one, you'd be stubbing your toe on them everywhere you go. Don't give up.
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
The Civic has a really good suspension for a car that size. It's compromised compared to a full size car but it's still double A's at all four corners, and of course light as hell. That's why the CRX beat the Vette, of course at a 'long legs' course the CRX wouldn't have a prayer. However, the idea occurred to me; I'd own a full-tilt CRX a few times over before I got a decent used C5 and did anything to it. Not to mention the fact that last I checked, out of all of the sick race cars Japan has to offer, a CRX was the Time Attack champ, running RWD offset wheels. On an island teeming with 'Godzillas' that's even more telling. Since, given the needs of the chassis, the Civic suspension done right is just as good as a Benz or a Vette, and Chapman proved it time and time again that there's just no way that a 3k lb+ is going to hang in the corners with a 2k lb car if they're set up to anywhere near the same standard of tune.
MR2s are cop bait...I guess they probably would be. I do see MkII's with the goofy air inlets all the time and no cop is stupid enough to think that you bought that car for any other reason than to fuck around with. The Civics at least can be disguised as a commuter. My 240D and my patented "I'm a white guy" jacket (I'd never wear it otherwise! Bleck!) makes all the cops think this long haired hellraiser is Mr. Magoo!
Eh, I'm actually surprised that I haven't found four 400Es going for like a grand by now, usually they show up when I can't even buy a dime bag just to torture me. However, I have a knack for seeing something and going 'that's going to be mine one day' and it coming true. I saw my exact 240D a year before I bought it and was going 'aw, man, if only I had the money...', ditto for the computer I'm writing this on. Friend of mine back in Chi even gave me a war-era Marble Ideal hunting knife, saw that it caught my eye. So it probably means I'll be driving one before the year is out, if I still want one (and the more I think about it...).
I'd want the E420 though, just because I like the idea of cruising around with '420' on the back of my car and no cop being the wiser
.
CID Vicious
01-18-2010, 08:48 AM #45That CRVette or whatever the hell it was got me so jealous. The C4 'vert with the snowmobile engine creating a vacuum under the car gets honorable mention too.
The Civic has a really good suspension for a car that size. It's compromised compared to a full size car but it's still double A's at all four corners, and of course light as hell. That's why the CRX beat the Vette, of course at a 'long legs' course the CRX wouldn't have a prayer. However, the idea occurred to me; I'd own a full-tilt CRX a few times over before I got a decent used C5 and did anything to it. Not to mention the fact that last I checked, out of all of the sick race cars Japan has to offer, a CRX was the Time Attack champ, running RWD offset wheels. On an island teeming with 'Godzillas' that's even more telling. Since, given the needs of the chassis, the Civic suspension done right is just as good as a Benz or a Vette, and Chapman proved it time and time again that there's just no way that a 3k lb+ is going to hang in the corners with a 2k lb car if they're set up to anywhere near the same standard of tune.
MR2s are cop bait...I guess they probably would be. I do see MkII's with the goofy air inlets all the time and no cop is stupid enough to think that you bought that car for any other reason than to fuck around with. The Civics at least can be disguised as a commuter. My 240D and my patented "I'm a white guy" jacket (I'd never wear it otherwise! Bleck!) makes all the cops think this long haired hellraiser is Mr. Magoo!
Eh, I'm actually surprised that I haven't found four 400Es going for like a grand by now, usually they show up when I can't even buy a dime bag just to torture me. However, I have a knack for seeing something and going 'that's going to be mine one day' and it coming true. I saw my exact 240D a year before I bought it and was going 'aw, man, if only I had the money...', ditto for the computer I'm writing this on. Friend of mine back in Chi even gave me a war-era Marble Ideal hunting knife, saw that it caught my eye. So it probably means I'll be driving one before the year is out, if I still want one (and the more I think about it...).
I'd want the E420 though, just because I like the idea of cruising around with '420' on the back of my car and no cop being the wiser .
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
I don't get it either. I know after you tell me I'll go: "Oh, yeah."
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
So what is the significance of "420"?
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
(01-27-2010, 01:36 AM)400Eric So what is the significance of "420"?
Marijuana.
ForcedInduction
01-27-2010, 01:51 AM
#48
(01-27-2010, 01:36 AM)400Eric So what is the significance of "420"?
Marijuana.
That part about Abe Lincoln was a new one to me too.
Thanks.
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
Oh. I didn't know that. Now I understand why that would be funny.
That part about Abe Lincoln was a new one to me too.
Thanks.
Regards, Eric
"I've had the car upside down and still been steering trying to correct it" Richard Petty
85 Volvo 740 turbo diesel "Bolbo 1"
90 Volvo 740 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 2"
93 Volvo 940 wagon turbo gas "Bolbo 5"
89 300E "Benzer 1" 15.924 uncorrected at Pomona
93 400E "Benzer 3" 14.200 uncorrected at Fontana
95 E420 "Benzer 4"
87 300D "Benzer 7"
87 300D "Benzer 8"
85 Dodge flatbed tow truck "Festus"
71 AMC Javelin AMX 401 "Sidewinder"
74 AMC Hornet 401 "C.K.10" 13.63 U.C.
74 Bricklin SV1 "Presto" (1 of the AMC 360 powered ones)
94 Ford F700 Cummins 6BT Allison AT545 (all factory!) "Thomas"
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