300D springs in a 240D!
300D springs in a 240D!
Ok, now for the rest...well, you might have seen my '240D springs in a 300D?' thread. Well, since I bought my 300D to lower, detail, throw a set of wheels on, and resell, I decided to experiment with swapping the springs between the cars. In the 300D 240D stock springs were swapped in with one coil cut - I'm very, very glad I didn't cut two - in the front. I think the drop in the back I'd want is going to be very achievable with the stock 240D rear springs left alone and if I want more they come out and go in so quick I'm going to try them uncut before I whip out the grinder this time. This resulted in a low but cush ride that's perfect for the folks who just can't see these sedans doing anything right but cruising in comfort. Those folks are a large part of the Benz audience so I don't feel I've done anything to 'ruin' the car in this regard, and an auto 300D is hardly under the umbrella of 'toss-able cars in stock form' anyway. Someone will buy it for a right price and be pleased, I'm sure.
After getting over the lack of power I learned to love my 240D - it's nimble and toss-able in the ways that the 300D isn't, mechanically even simpler, and at least you've got a third pedal. It's hard to believe that they're essentially the same car, but once you add the weight of the 3.0l motor, auto trans, power windows, etc, you're going to see a lot of weight over the wrong place - the front axle. The OM616 isn't exactly the lightest motor in the world but with the same turbo, IC, trans, etc bolted to it the 617a will always be heavier, and all of that weight is front axle. Apples to apples the 240D just has a better weight distribution and less of it to distribute in the first place.
In any case the stock suspension wasn't up to much. Though perfect for where I live out in the desert for Kamel impersonations, the tall, soft, narrow tread setup is ok in the handling department but was obviously set up for comfort and maximum MPG from the factory.
At first I did the front springs and if these are all you can manage - do it. The springs I pulled from the 300D were 'blue dots' and are remarkably stiffer than the 240D's springs, even just going corner to corner from car to car before the job and standing on the bumpers. Although the 300D weighs a couple hundred pounds more than a 240D like mine, these springs took up the extra weight and then some. I cut two coils from the front of the 300D springs and then installed them on my 240D and drove it around for awhile like that for about two months. The drop was about 2" (I didn't bother taking corner heights as I've been switching wheels around as well) and wasn't as low as I'd thought it would be, which confirmed my expectations - these springs are a lot stiffer than I was expecting and to elaborate, I reused the same pads on the fronts of both cars.
I had a friend staying with me at the time, he was more often than not a passenger almost anytime I drove the car, and I asked him if he thought the ride was affected. He couldn't really tell the difference either in town or on the highway. Those who are worried about their ride going to shit, well, if you're an older gent with a bad back or something I can see that, but if not, as Amanda Bee might say, 'Sack up, middle aged vagina men!' This is still a Mercedes ride, try driving a 93 SE-R with 7.0kg/mm springs in front if you want to talk about a rough trip to work! Keep a decent sidewall if you want stiff springs and decent impact absorption, rubber band tires do more to hurt your ride than stiff springs do. When I was driving said SE-R with said coilovers, I'd run 16s to mess around with and the stock 14s to get around with, and the ride wasn't much stiffer feeling than stock with the 14s and their taller sidewalls. The 16s would go on and you'd feel every pebble in the road.
The rears went in really easy, so easy I now understand why there isn't anything mentioned about it. With the Baum Klönn tool it's real easy, pull the back seat, drop the shock, disconnect the links for the sway bar, compress the spring, out through the notch in the frame above the axle. Don't let the convoluted process of doing it without the tool keep you from going back there, it's really not all that hard to pull and replace the springs. (Just get the Baum tool, I'm a broke, broke bastid and I'm not desperate enough to stick my face in a wheel well with a 14 coil spring compressed and held in place by a chinzy loan-a-tool compressor - pony up the bucks, borrow one, or find something to mod on your car that won't possibly kill you or someone else in the process!)
The rears were cut two coils, same blue dot 300D springs on two nub pads this time. The rear springs are way stiffer on the 300D than the stock 240D springs, before I could get the 'lowered look' in the back anytime I was moving bags of concrete before. Now the car is Vette-stiff on all four corners and I decided to 'upgrade' to a set of what are probably Monroe's from the 300D, replacing the blown out set that's been giving me wheel hop in the back at odd times (and with only ~100lb/ft). There was a negative camber gain but nothing too excessive. I'm going to figure out what I'm doing with the front suspension and eventually get it to an alignment shop, but really the car still tracks quite well.
The results, well, are skewed just a bit. When I started out, I had steel wheels in front (mismatched tires due to backing over a re-bar) and 'steel look' aluminum wheels in back, running 185-70-14s. Which, as everyone knows, is a true performance setup!
So since I'd gotten the 15's for the 300D, I swapped the chrome Bundts running 205-70-14s from it over to the 240D when I did the front springs. So the comparison I'm giving you isn't exactly apples to apples, but I've noticed most magazine buildups are similar, you end up seeing the springs, shocks, wheels, tires, etc getting upgraded at once with no info on the individual steps between. Also, even when I swapped on the 15s the 'wide' tires I have in the back are only 215-60-15s, there are Hondas running more tire than that. So it's closer to a stock setup than I'd really like it to be, but that highlights what the suspension improvement is and not just the wheels/tires.However, the 'skewed' results are anything but mild, and with the Baum tool and grinder included you can upgrade your 240D quite a bit for about 300 bucks with some junkyard springs. Even with the same wheels and tires the stiffer suspension is going to get more out of them than the stock setup would. Bang for buck, nothing is going to transform the attitude and appearance of the car more. It went from feeling like a well engineered Cadillac, and seemingly almost as large, to a lean, trim Euro sports sedan with a proper stance. Think of an 80's 5 series and that's what the car's vibe comes off more like instead of something your grandfather might drive.
The front springs alone, if you could only do one end, are what you want. That really transformed the car and made it willing to play even with the back side untouched. The ride height and ride are both where they should have been from the factory (the 'rally car' suspension setup should have been an option or standard for places like Morocco where it's really needed). It's not the full experience but it made canyon running much more fun.
Doing the backs, I swapped over a set of aftermarket 15s that have been on the 300D up until this point (the 300D is still awaiting some dry days off so it can come off the jack stands) just to try them out, and because it at least has a 'matched set' of crappy tires on either axle, vs the mixed bag on the Bundts. Plus I wanted to see what they'd look like and see whether I should roll my front fenders (I should, comments about that below). The wheels are 15x7 so even though the fronts are still 205 width they stick out a bit more than they would on a 15x6. I'm really tempted to keep these wheels, sell the 300D with the chrome 190E wheels, and run 235 width Camaro tires on these 15x7s. GRIP!
The result with the 15x7s, 300D 'blue dot' springs liberated of two coils front and back, is nothing short of great. I have a traffic circle near where I shop and I found it empty after buttoning everything up and took a trip 'round it - the car simply ate it up and asked for more. Not a word from the tires (35mph used to make the first set howl). Going out to a friend's house on a winding country road, I can't say how fast I was taking these 35mph turns (it was night and my cluster doesn't light up) but I do know I was standing on it in fourth gear
which means I was doing at least 60. Back when I was stuck with 'stock minus' crap I used to cringe at the thought of doing 45 on a couple of them, now blowing through them at twice the posted speed is nothing. What this car would do with a set of Bilstein HDs, perhaps another half to full coil out of the front suspension (now it's a little higher than the front), and a matched set of real tires (my kingdom for some Kumhos or Falkens!) and this car would actually almost be autocross ready. That's actually the direction I'm headed. I'd like to throw some sticky wide meats under there, roll the fenders, Bilstein HDs, double rear sway bar, add a turbo and rebuild the front suspension, and go find some kind of slot to compete in in autocross. It'd be interesting to see what category I'd end up in and although I'd be in some kind of 'modified' class where I'll probably get my ass handed to me, at least I'd be there with a diesel Mercedes a-representin'. However because it is diesel unless there's some TDI guys running I might be in a class by myself more or less. I think with any OM61X motor that isn't 'Finn-ified' that would probably be a modded D's strong suit. All the low end grunt you need and in a sport where excess horsepower probably isn't going to win the day in and of itself. It'd be interesting to see how such a car would compare to more 'typical' autocross fare.
It would certainly stand out. The only other Benzes likely to be competing of anywhere near the vintage would be 2.3-16s, maybe a couple of weirdos with R107s or something from time to time but I'd probably be the only W123 at the event, almost certainly the only diesel. Also, I just machine polished and waxed the 240D and I really dig the old-school patina, the car GLOWS but it still has that 'really old original paint' look. Not a lot of cars out there can both hope to compete in autocross and legitimately rock a patina'd original paint scheme. If I move someplace where my car will rust I'll paint it, until then it's just money I could have spent going faster.
Anyway this post is long enough already. If you've got a 240D and want to have some fun with it, (and have a stick!) start here. I'm going to post a Cold Air Intake how-to as soon as I can take some pictures, between the suspension and the CAI the manual trans 240D can actually be a rather satisfying driver's car, as I've said before, a Miata with four doors, an 'economical sports car' that isn't a hatchback or front wheel drive, something for people with modest means who like to drive but have real lives and maybe a little cetane in their veins.
CID Vicious
02-06-2010, 02:46 PM #1So you're sitting there with a 240D, and I'll bet you can imagine it being just a little more fun than the factory did. If you have a stick, then proceed - 240D automatic drivers are just so stuck in an automotive performance purgatory that I don't want them do get false hope. If you like your auto 240D that much - might be real clean - then either swap in a four speed stick or a turbo and come back. Better yet, do both!
Ok, now for the rest...well, you might have seen my '240D springs in a 300D?' thread. Well, since I bought my 300D to lower, detail, throw a set of wheels on, and resell, I decided to experiment with swapping the springs between the cars. In the 300D 240D stock springs were swapped in with one coil cut - I'm very, very glad I didn't cut two - in the front. I think the drop in the back I'd want is going to be very achievable with the stock 240D rear springs left alone and if I want more they come out and go in so quick I'm going to try them uncut before I whip out the grinder this time. This resulted in a low but cush ride that's perfect for the folks who just can't see these sedans doing anything right but cruising in comfort. Those folks are a large part of the Benz audience so I don't feel I've done anything to 'ruin' the car in this regard, and an auto 300D is hardly under the umbrella of 'toss-able cars in stock form' anyway. Someone will buy it for a right price and be pleased, I'm sure.
After getting over the lack of power I learned to love my 240D - it's nimble and toss-able in the ways that the 300D isn't, mechanically even simpler, and at least you've got a third pedal. It's hard to believe that they're essentially the same car, but once you add the weight of the 3.0l motor, auto trans, power windows, etc, you're going to see a lot of weight over the wrong place - the front axle. The OM616 isn't exactly the lightest motor in the world but with the same turbo, IC, trans, etc bolted to it the 617a will always be heavier, and all of that weight is front axle. Apples to apples the 240D just has a better weight distribution and less of it to distribute in the first place.
In any case the stock suspension wasn't up to much. Though perfect for where I live out in the desert for Kamel impersonations, the tall, soft, narrow tread setup is ok in the handling department but was obviously set up for comfort and maximum MPG from the factory.
At first I did the front springs and if these are all you can manage - do it. The springs I pulled from the 300D were 'blue dots' and are remarkably stiffer than the 240D's springs, even just going corner to corner from car to car before the job and standing on the bumpers. Although the 300D weighs a couple hundred pounds more than a 240D like mine, these springs took up the extra weight and then some. I cut two coils from the front of the 300D springs and then installed them on my 240D and drove it around for awhile like that for about two months. The drop was about 2" (I didn't bother taking corner heights as I've been switching wheels around as well) and wasn't as low as I'd thought it would be, which confirmed my expectations - these springs are a lot stiffer than I was expecting and to elaborate, I reused the same pads on the fronts of both cars.
I had a friend staying with me at the time, he was more often than not a passenger almost anytime I drove the car, and I asked him if he thought the ride was affected. He couldn't really tell the difference either in town or on the highway. Those who are worried about their ride going to shit, well, if you're an older gent with a bad back or something I can see that, but if not, as Amanda Bee might say, 'Sack up, middle aged vagina men!' This is still a Mercedes ride, try driving a 93 SE-R with 7.0kg/mm springs in front if you want to talk about a rough trip to work! Keep a decent sidewall if you want stiff springs and decent impact absorption, rubber band tires do more to hurt your ride than stiff springs do. When I was driving said SE-R with said coilovers, I'd run 16s to mess around with and the stock 14s to get around with, and the ride wasn't much stiffer feeling than stock with the 14s and their taller sidewalls. The 16s would go on and you'd feel every pebble in the road.
The rears went in really easy, so easy I now understand why there isn't anything mentioned about it. With the Baum Klönn tool it's real easy, pull the back seat, drop the shock, disconnect the links for the sway bar, compress the spring, out through the notch in the frame above the axle. Don't let the convoluted process of doing it without the tool keep you from going back there, it's really not all that hard to pull and replace the springs. (Just get the Baum tool, I'm a broke, broke bastid and I'm not desperate enough to stick my face in a wheel well with a 14 coil spring compressed and held in place by a chinzy loan-a-tool compressor - pony up the bucks, borrow one, or find something to mod on your car that won't possibly kill you or someone else in the process!)
The rears were cut two coils, same blue dot 300D springs on two nub pads this time. The rear springs are way stiffer on the 300D than the stock 240D springs, before I could get the 'lowered look' in the back anytime I was moving bags of concrete before. Now the car is Vette-stiff on all four corners and I decided to 'upgrade' to a set of what are probably Monroe's from the 300D, replacing the blown out set that's been giving me wheel hop in the back at odd times (and with only ~100lb/ft). There was a negative camber gain but nothing too excessive. I'm going to figure out what I'm doing with the front suspension and eventually get it to an alignment shop, but really the car still tracks quite well.
The results, well, are skewed just a bit. When I started out, I had steel wheels in front (mismatched tires due to backing over a re-bar) and 'steel look' aluminum wheels in back, running 185-70-14s. Which, as everyone knows, is a true performance setup! So since I'd gotten the 15's for the 300D, I swapped the chrome Bundts running 205-70-14s from it over to the 240D when I did the front springs. So the comparison I'm giving you isn't exactly apples to apples, but I've noticed most magazine buildups are similar, you end up seeing the springs, shocks, wheels, tires, etc getting upgraded at once with no info on the individual steps between. Also, even when I swapped on the 15s the 'wide' tires I have in the back are only 215-60-15s, there are Hondas running more tire than that. So it's closer to a stock setup than I'd really like it to be, but that highlights what the suspension improvement is and not just the wheels/tires.
However, the 'skewed' results are anything but mild, and with the Baum tool and grinder included you can upgrade your 240D quite a bit for about 300 bucks with some junkyard springs. Even with the same wheels and tires the stiffer suspension is going to get more out of them than the stock setup would. Bang for buck, nothing is going to transform the attitude and appearance of the car more. It went from feeling like a well engineered Cadillac, and seemingly almost as large, to a lean, trim Euro sports sedan with a proper stance. Think of an 80's 5 series and that's what the car's vibe comes off more like instead of something your grandfather might drive.
The front springs alone, if you could only do one end, are what you want. That really transformed the car and made it willing to play even with the back side untouched. The ride height and ride are both where they should have been from the factory (the 'rally car' suspension setup should have been an option or standard for places like Morocco where it's really needed). It's not the full experience but it made canyon running much more fun.
Doing the backs, I swapped over a set of aftermarket 15s that have been on the 300D up until this point (the 300D is still awaiting some dry days off so it can come off the jack stands) just to try them out, and because it at least has a 'matched set' of crappy tires on either axle, vs the mixed bag on the Bundts. Plus I wanted to see what they'd look like and see whether I should roll my front fenders (I should, comments about that below). The wheels are 15x7 so even though the fronts are still 205 width they stick out a bit more than they would on a 15x6. I'm really tempted to keep these wheels, sell the 300D with the chrome 190E wheels, and run 235 width Camaro tires on these 15x7s. GRIP!
The result with the 15x7s, 300D 'blue dot' springs liberated of two coils front and back, is nothing short of great. I have a traffic circle near where I shop and I found it empty after buttoning everything up and took a trip 'round it - the car simply ate it up and asked for more. Not a word from the tires (35mph used to make the first set howl). Going out to a friend's house on a winding country road, I can't say how fast I was taking these 35mph turns (it was night and my cluster doesn't light up) but I do know I was standing on it in fourth gear which means I was doing at least 60. Back when I was stuck with 'stock minus' crap I used to cringe at the thought of doing 45 on a couple of them, now blowing through them at twice the posted speed is nothing. What this car would do with a set of Bilstein HDs, perhaps another half to full coil out of the front suspension (now it's a little higher than the front), and a matched set of real tires (my kingdom for some Kumhos or Falkens!) and this car would actually almost be autocross ready.
That's actually the direction I'm headed. I'd like to throw some sticky wide meats under there, roll the fenders, Bilstein HDs, double rear sway bar, add a turbo and rebuild the front suspension, and go find some kind of slot to compete in in autocross. It'd be interesting to see what category I'd end up in and although I'd be in some kind of 'modified' class where I'll probably get my ass handed to me, at least I'd be there with a diesel Mercedes a-representin'. However because it is diesel unless there's some TDI guys running I might be in a class by myself more or less. I think with any OM61X motor that isn't 'Finn-ified' that would probably be a modded D's strong suit. All the low end grunt you need and in a sport where excess horsepower probably isn't going to win the day in and of itself. It'd be interesting to see how such a car would compare to more 'typical' autocross fare.
It would certainly stand out. The only other Benzes likely to be competing of anywhere near the vintage would be 2.3-16s, maybe a couple of weirdos with R107s or something from time to time but I'd probably be the only W123 at the event, almost certainly the only diesel. Also, I just machine polished and waxed the 240D and I really dig the old-school patina, the car GLOWS but it still has that 'really old original paint' look. Not a lot of cars out there can both hope to compete in autocross and legitimately rock a patina'd original paint scheme. If I move someplace where my car will rust I'll paint it, until then it's just money I could have spent going faster.
Anyway this post is long enough already. If you've got a 240D and want to have some fun with it, (and have a stick!) start here. I'm going to post a Cold Air Intake how-to as soon as I can take some pictures, between the suspension and the CAI the manual trans 240D can actually be a rather satisfying driver's car, as I've said before, a Miata with four doors, an 'economical sports car' that isn't a hatchback or front wheel drive, something for people with modest means who like to drive but have real lives and maybe a little cetane in their veins.
Before I started cutting springs I put the 15x7 wheels on the 300D and it had quite the '4x4' stance, that might be an easier option, as you'd be able to switch back and forth easily and wouldn't require a new alignment each time you did so. Some 15" wheels and tall tires would certainly give you some lift.
CID Vicious
02-17-2010, 11:50 PM #3If you went with the tallest possible pads and uncut 300D springs you might get 2" of lift.
Before I started cutting springs I put the 15x7 wheels on the 300D and it had quite the '4x4' stance, that might be an easier option, as you'd be able to switch back and forth easily and wouldn't require a new alignment each time you did so. Some 15" wheels and tall tires would certainly give you some lift.
(02-17-2010, 10:57 PM)DWitcher How much taller over stock would the 240 sit with uncut 300 springs in it? Im looking to raise a 240 2"-3" for some desert traveling.
I think it is definitely doable for 2 inches or more. Make sure you get 1982-1984 300D/TD/C turbo springs that are at least 15.8 wire diameter, have a "Blue" paint mark near the bottom of the spring (Blue is long springs and Red is short spring) and use the 1 nub pad.
For the rear you can possibly use a w116 or w126 spring to raise it.
There is a '82 380SEC with I think 17mm or 18mm wire diameter rear springs that might be perfect for raising the rear at the Pick your Part on Union Ave. It's been there for months now so it's ready to get crushed. I thought about using and cutting them for my car, just don't have the time to go get them.
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
02-18-2010, 01:41 PM #4(02-17-2010, 10:57 PM)DWitcher How much taller over stock would the 240 sit with uncut 300 springs in it? Im looking to raise a 240 2"-3" for some desert traveling.
I think it is definitely doable for 2 inches or more. Make sure you get 1982-1984 300D/TD/C turbo springs that are at least 15.8 wire diameter, have a "Blue" paint mark near the bottom of the spring (Blue is long springs and Red is short spring) and use the 1 nub pad.
For the rear you can possibly use a w116 or w126 spring to raise it.
There is a '82 380SEC with I think 17mm or 18mm wire diameter rear springs that might be perfect for raising the rear at the Pick your Part on Union Ave. It's been there for months now so it's ready to get crushed. I thought about using and cutting them for my car, just don't have the time to go get them.
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
While I REALLY wanted this to work - 'free upgrade springs, yay!' - the 240D springs on the 300D were, as expected, too soft, too low. If you're really going to go this route - the stock suspension isn't soft enough for you? Really? - then try the 240D spring uncut, as even lopping off the one coil was just too low, too soft, 'on the bumpstops' all the time.
I say 'on the bumpstops' in quotations because our front suspension system, at least, doesn't have them - likely there was so much travel in the stock system that it wasn't even necessary. So when you're bottoming out, you're bottoming your shocks out - not so good.
So I put the 300D springs back in the 300D, minus the two coils of course, and it's where it needs to be. That 617a is a heavy sumbitch... I'm still chasing down the hot restart gremlins, replaced the injector return hoses in an attempt to clear that up, but nothing. I think I'm just going to have to sell it as is...
Anyway, used car blues, blah blah, we're here about springs, CID, remember?
So, taking the opportunity for even more experimentation, I decided to go for the gusto - I took another two coils out of the fronts for a total of three coils cut. This was supposed to be the 'hot setup' according to Nur-Spec, putting the roll center, etc, where it was supposed to be for optimum handling. I said to myself 'three coils sounds like it's going to be ricer low, I don't know about that.' After having done it and taken up my favorite canyon road, I'd have to agree with Nur-Spec.
Three coils sounds like a LOT but when you're starting out with 14, it's not so radical. This car fucking TURNS now. I've had to laugh silently at RWD snobs before, with their stock Grandpa setup, as though these aren't the understeerin'-est thing this side of a 240DL. My FWD cars - SE-R and EG Civic - exhibited far less understeer than these cars do stock.
Not anymore, though. That wheel doesn't feel so huge now.
The only problem is that I'm still running the 205-70-14s in the front, and that's going to get fixed as soon as I figure out which wheels I want to run. However, prepare to tuck your fender lip in front - even on 15x7 wheels with 215 width tires there's no rubbing in back - but if you're running a stockish height tire, you're going to tear the side blocks up if you don't roll those lips. I used a 3 dollar Harbor Freight rubber mallet - good luck doing a good job with the old 'fat friend and a baseball bat' routine - get under there, remove the wheel, and hammer that sucker flat, so it can't be grabbed by your tired if you hit a bump mid corner or come it at an angle into a gas station. Thankfully I just chewed up a couple of mismatched throwaway tires. If you've already gone with a lower profile set of tires then this shouldn't be as much of a problem, but I'd still roll 'em just in case.
The other problem, as has been mentioned in the spring cutting threads, is shock travel. Once I went to the -3 240D springs, I was hitting the 'bumpstops' hard on my way out of my rutted-from-hanging-the-back-end-out-every-time-I-come-home dirt driveway, as well as periodically on the road from bumps that used to be absorbed without incident. This is because the shock is now pre-compressed even sitting still now that the spring has been shortened. I devised a perhaps temporary solution to this, which may need to be updated in steel later - I took some very resilient plastic sheet that I've had lying around my shed, kind of like a colored plexiglass. It was out in the desert sun for god knows how long and hasn't become brittle, so it's tough stuff and may be the stock they use for those lit up box signs at every strip mall in the universe.
Anyway I took a hole saw and cut out the smallest circle I could, enlarged the center hole, removed the two securing nuts, flipped the top washer upside down (so the 'dish' is facing the pavement) added my new spacer - I'd say it's about a 1/4" thick - and replaced the nuts.
Sound goofy? Well, it works, and works great - no bottoming out even in my rutted driveway. The decreased compression depth left over in the shock absorber has been increased by a 1/4", apparently enough even at the height I'm now at - pretty damned low, especially compared to stock - that bottoming out isn't a problem anymore, and it can only help regain theoretically lost shock absorber performance by doing so. I'm going to see if this will last, I have the tools with me to tighten the nuts back down if the plastic fails. Since there shouldn't be any flex between the nut and the steel washer, these might last a good long time, and you can't beat Free.
So to recap, the 240D springs suck - there's no reason to go that route in my opinion unless it's a matter of getting a car on the road no matter what. From my perspective the cars are undersprung as is, without going further in the wrong direction.
3 coils off of the stock front spring is actually pretty damned excellent if you really push your car from time to time. Still plenty of clearance - www.germanautoparts.com has replacement oil pans for 25 bucks if you're really that worried - still not a bad ride even with my generic and beat to hell shocks. I would say that the steering/handling is more BMW like than what most people expect from a Mercedes. The stock suspension configuration is great in some ways but it's just weird that they fit ALL of their markets with the 'African Bush Taxi' package. Now it actually wants to dance like a proper European sports sedan instead of being a better built Lincoln Town Car.
With 3 coils off the front, 1 off the back, typical 300D tires in front on Bundts, and 185 width wall mart tires on my 'new' Quasilines, the front does what you want it to - finally - and the back end follows almost too willingly. The lower grip in the back from the skinny, cheap ass tires actually helps the balance, which is my car currently looks retarded, with the wider, taller tires in front and the shorter, skinnier ones in back. However I want the car to turn and I'll worry about the back end later, not turn the wheel and wonder why I'm skidding off the road in a straight line. Tires and a matched set of wheels are next in the queue. Followed by some (real hopeful here) junkyard Bilsteins, but I'm probably dreaming about that last bit.
I don't know if I'm really going to continue hanging out on this forum, and I'm sure some of you can guess why. However, I didn't want to leave this thread hanging there with incomplete/bad info on it. While I'm sadly not getting my 'better' set of Free 300D springs I'll actually be able to sell the 300D now and frankly the cut 240D springs aren't bad at all. I was hoping that the retarded setup described earlier would work out, but any fool ('cept this one, of course) could have seen the results. If you don't see me here, look for me at Benzworld and probably Jalopnik if I can, at least as a commentator.
CID Vicious
06-09-2010, 03:49 AM #6To clarify:
While I REALLY wanted this to work - 'free upgrade springs, yay!' - the 240D springs on the 300D were, as expected, too soft, too low. If you're really going to go this route - the stock suspension isn't soft enough for you? Really? - then try the 240D spring uncut, as even lopping off the one coil was just too low, too soft, 'on the bumpstops' all the time.
I say 'on the bumpstops' in quotations because our front suspension system, at least, doesn't have them - likely there was so much travel in the stock system that it wasn't even necessary. So when you're bottoming out, you're bottoming your shocks out - not so good.
So I put the 300D springs back in the 300D, minus the two coils of course, and it's where it needs to be. That 617a is a heavy sumbitch... I'm still chasing down the hot restart gremlins, replaced the injector return hoses in an attempt to clear that up, but nothing. I think I'm just going to have to sell it as is...
Anyway, used car blues, blah blah, we're here about springs, CID, remember?
So, taking the opportunity for even more experimentation, I decided to go for the gusto - I took another two coils out of the fronts for a total of three coils cut. This was supposed to be the 'hot setup' according to Nur-Spec, putting the roll center, etc, where it was supposed to be for optimum handling. I said to myself 'three coils sounds like it's going to be ricer low, I don't know about that.' After having done it and taken up my favorite canyon road, I'd have to agree with Nur-Spec.
Three coils sounds like a LOT but when you're starting out with 14, it's not so radical. This car fucking TURNS now. I've had to laugh silently at RWD snobs before, with their stock Grandpa setup, as though these aren't the understeerin'-est thing this side of a 240DL. My FWD cars - SE-R and EG Civic - exhibited far less understeer than these cars do stock.
Not anymore, though. That wheel doesn't feel so huge now.
The only problem is that I'm still running the 205-70-14s in the front, and that's going to get fixed as soon as I figure out which wheels I want to run. However, prepare to tuck your fender lip in front - even on 15x7 wheels with 215 width tires there's no rubbing in back - but if you're running a stockish height tire, you're going to tear the side blocks up if you don't roll those lips. I used a 3 dollar Harbor Freight rubber mallet - good luck doing a good job with the old 'fat friend and a baseball bat' routine - get under there, remove the wheel, and hammer that sucker flat, so it can't be grabbed by your tired if you hit a bump mid corner or come it at an angle into a gas station. Thankfully I just chewed up a couple of mismatched throwaway tires. If you've already gone with a lower profile set of tires then this shouldn't be as much of a problem, but I'd still roll 'em just in case.
The other problem, as has been mentioned in the spring cutting threads, is shock travel. Once I went to the -3 240D springs, I was hitting the 'bumpstops' hard on my way out of my rutted-from-hanging-the-back-end-out-every-time-I-come-home dirt driveway, as well as periodically on the road from bumps that used to be absorbed without incident. This is because the shock is now pre-compressed even sitting still now that the spring has been shortened. I devised a perhaps temporary solution to this, which may need to be updated in steel later - I took some very resilient plastic sheet that I've had lying around my shed, kind of like a colored plexiglass. It was out in the desert sun for god knows how long and hasn't become brittle, so it's tough stuff and may be the stock they use for those lit up box signs at every strip mall in the universe.
Anyway I took a hole saw and cut out the smallest circle I could, enlarged the center hole, removed the two securing nuts, flipped the top washer upside down (so the 'dish' is facing the pavement) added my new spacer - I'd say it's about a 1/4" thick - and replaced the nuts.
Sound goofy? Well, it works, and works great - no bottoming out even in my rutted driveway. The decreased compression depth left over in the shock absorber has been increased by a 1/4", apparently enough even at the height I'm now at - pretty damned low, especially compared to stock - that bottoming out isn't a problem anymore, and it can only help regain theoretically lost shock absorber performance by doing so. I'm going to see if this will last, I have the tools with me to tighten the nuts back down if the plastic fails. Since there shouldn't be any flex between the nut and the steel washer, these might last a good long time, and you can't beat Free.
So to recap, the 240D springs suck - there's no reason to go that route in my opinion unless it's a matter of getting a car on the road no matter what. From my perspective the cars are undersprung as is, without going further in the wrong direction.
3 coils off of the stock front spring is actually pretty damned excellent if you really push your car from time to time. Still plenty of clearance - www.germanautoparts.com has replacement oil pans for 25 bucks if you're really that worried - still not a bad ride even with my generic and beat to hell shocks. I would say that the steering/handling is more BMW like than what most people expect from a Mercedes. The stock suspension configuration is great in some ways but it's just weird that they fit ALL of their markets with the 'African Bush Taxi' package. Now it actually wants to dance like a proper European sports sedan instead of being a better built Lincoln Town Car.
With 3 coils off the front, 1 off the back, typical 300D tires in front on Bundts, and 185 width wall mart tires on my 'new' Quasilines, the front does what you want it to - finally - and the back end follows almost too willingly. The lower grip in the back from the skinny, cheap ass tires actually helps the balance, which is my car currently looks retarded, with the wider, taller tires in front and the shorter, skinnier ones in back. However I want the car to turn and I'll worry about the back end later, not turn the wheel and wonder why I'm skidding off the road in a straight line. Tires and a matched set of wheels are next in the queue. Followed by some (real hopeful here) junkyard Bilsteins, but I'm probably dreaming about that last bit.
I don't know if I'm really going to continue hanging out on this forum, and I'm sure some of you can guess why. However, I didn't want to leave this thread hanging there with incomplete/bad info on it. While I'm sadly not getting my 'better' set of Free 300D springs I'll actually be able to sell the 300D now and frankly the cut 240D springs aren't bad at all. I was hoping that the retarded setup described earlier would work out, but any fool ('cept this one, of course) could have seen the results. If you don't see me here, look for me at Benzworld and probably Jalopnik if I can, at least as a commentator.
(06-09-2010, 03:49 AM)CID Vicious So to recap, the 240D springs suck - there's no reason to go that route in my opinion unless it's a matter of getting a car on the road no matter what. From my perspective the cars are undersprung as is, without going further in the wrong direction.
Its fine in my 240D, even with the 617 in there. It does sit visibly lower than my 300D on the front end but I've never bottomed out on anything unless I'm running through a deep snow/ice rut.
It sounds to me like you need new, or HD, shocks.
ForcedInduction
06-09-2010, 04:06 AM
#7
(06-09-2010, 03:49 AM)CID Vicious So to recap, the 240D springs suck - there's no reason to go that route in my opinion unless it's a matter of getting a car on the road no matter what. From my perspective the cars are undersprung as is, without going further in the wrong direction.
Its fine in my 240D, even with the 617 in there. It does sit visibly lower than my 300D on the front end but I've never bottomed out on anything unless I'm running through a deep snow/ice rut.
It sounds to me like you need new, or HD, shocks.
ForcedInduction
06-09-2010, 04:41 AM
#8
Clearly CID hasn't learned anything from his previous actions. He sent me a VERY nasty PM in response to the above reply so he is gone, again.
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