So I got my IP adjusted
So I got my IP adjusted
SicNick
09-04-2010, 11:24 AM #1Following the M pump directions in the above sticky, I adjusted my IP yesterday. I took the lower left fuel screw out one full turn and the idle travel adjustment screw upper right one turn out as well. Samurai drives much better!! However the water outlet that's jacketed with the fuel supply is now leaking where it's quick connect fitting meets the block. This assembly is supported by the the oil filter housing and the trauma of working on the area has compromised it's ability to hold water. Is there a retrofit for this fitting? Contrary to everything else on this motor, this assembly doesn't seem very robust. TIA
It doesn't have any practical existence other than creature comfort. The M-pumps used on the OM617, OM615 and OM621 never used a heater and live fine without one.
ForcedInduction
09-05-2010, 02:41 AM
#2
The fuel heater? Might as well block it off, it only brings the fuel up to 70*f and its for reducing engine noise in cold weather.
It doesn't have any practical existence other than creature comfort. The M-pumps used on the OM617, OM615 and OM621 never used a heater and live fine without one.
Depends on whether you have good winter diesel in your area and how cold it gets as to whether you'll need it or not!
![[Image: 300TDnoplate.jpg]](http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z128/alastairhcii/300TDnoplate.jpg)
Alastair E
09-05-2010, 04:41 AM #3Fuel heater is to prevent the diesel waxing in cold weather and plugging the fuel-filter.....
Depends on whether you have good winter diesel in your area and how cold it gets as to whether you'll need it or not!
(09-05-2010, 04:41 AM)Alastair E Fuel heater is to prevent the diesel waxing in cold weather and plugging the fuel-filter.
No it isn't. Being coolant based, its 100% worthless at doing that because if the fuel is gelled you wouldn't get the engine running for it to heat the fuel!
ForcedInduction
09-05-2010, 05:10 AM
#4
(09-05-2010, 04:41 AM)Alastair E Fuel heater is to prevent the diesel waxing in cold weather and plugging the fuel-filter.
No it isn't. Being coolant based, its 100% worthless at doing that because if the fuel is gelled you wouldn't get the engine running for it to heat the fuel!
SicNick
09-05-2010, 12:10 PM #5Thanks for the responses guys, I realized early on that this assembly would increase diesel temps once the coolant started heating up. Do either of yu happen to know what thread this water outlet might be? Hopefully it isn't very bizarre but Who knows on the Benz, most of the easy to find heater hose fttings are 1/2" NPT etc. Thanks for the help guys!
Here we go again.......The 'World According to Lance.....'
....Neither myself (and I'll freely admit,--Unlike you)--Nor You know Everything!
OK, What do You reckon the fuel-heater is for...?--And, dont give some Utter daft rubbish about making the engine quieter--as you WELL KNOW it does Not!
--The Fuel Injected, Will Be at Whatever Temperature The Cyl-Head and Injectors are at, so no coolant heater is gonna do squat with That, so how does this make the thing quieter!
Alastair E
09-05-2010, 03:26 PM #6Ho-Hum....
Here we go again.......The 'World According to Lance.....'
....Neither myself (and I'll freely admit,--Unlike you)--Nor You know Everything!
OK, What do You reckon the fuel-heater is for...?--And, dont give some Utter daft rubbish about making the engine quieter--as you WELL KNOW it does Not!
--The Fuel Injected, Will Be at Whatever Temperature The Cyl-Head and Injectors are at, so no coolant heater is gonna do squat with That, so how does this make the thing quieter!
(09-05-2010, 03:26 PM)Alastair E Ho-Hum....
Here we go again.......The 'World According to Forced.....'
....Neither myself (and I'll freely admit,--Unlike you)--Nor You know Everything!
OK, What do You reckon the fuel-heater is for...?--And, dont give some Utter daft rubbish about making the engine quieter--as you WELL KNOW it does Not!
--The Fuel Injected, Will Be at Whatever Temperature The Cyl-Head and Injectors are at, so no coolant heater is gonna do squat with That, so how does this make the thing quieter!
Well even though this thread wasn't started to answer the question "what is the fuel heater for..." I can see both of your replies holding a reasonable explanation. Heating fuel would efectively reduce it's flashpoint allowing for better emissions and quieter running of the motor In general, also you'd imagine that this fuel would carry more heat back to the tank through the return line to help prevent gelling of it after the vehicle was already running. Forced and I live at the base of the rocky mountains and see severely cold temps every winter, well below 0* F on ocassion. However I have hardly driven this vehicle here in the winter so my opinion on the subject mght not hold the same experience as his.
All that aside, anyone happen to know the thread size and pitch of the afformentioned water outlet so I can replace it with a regular hose clamp style heater hose fitting? Thanks! It will be several days before I can pull it apart again and I'd like to get started locating a part if possible!
SicNick
09-05-2010, 05:28 PM #7(09-05-2010, 03:26 PM)Alastair E Ho-Hum....
Here we go again.......The 'World According to Forced.....'
....Neither myself (and I'll freely admit,--Unlike you)--Nor You know Everything!
OK, What do You reckon the fuel-heater is for...?--And, dont give some Utter daft rubbish about making the engine quieter--as you WELL KNOW it does Not!
--The Fuel Injected, Will Be at Whatever Temperature The Cyl-Head and Injectors are at, so no coolant heater is gonna do squat with That, so how does this make the thing quieter!
Well even though this thread wasn't started to answer the question "what is the fuel heater for..." I can see both of your replies holding a reasonable explanation. Heating fuel would efectively reduce it's flashpoint allowing for better emissions and quieter running of the motor In general, also you'd imagine that this fuel would carry more heat back to the tank through the return line to help prevent gelling of it after the vehicle was already running. Forced and I live at the base of the rocky mountains and see severely cold temps every winter, well below 0* F on ocassion. However I have hardly driven this vehicle here in the winter so my opinion on the subject mght not hold the same experience as his.
All that aside, anyone happen to know the thread size and pitch of the afformentioned water outlet so I can replace it with a regular hose clamp style heater hose fitting? Thanks! It will be several days before I can pull it apart again and I'd like to get started locating a part if possible!
(09-05-2010, 03:26 PM)Alastair E Ho-Hum....No, its the world according to how it works. If you had taken the time to research what you're talking about, you might understand what you're talking about.
Here we go again.......The 'World According to Forced.....'
Quote:OK, What do You reckon the fuel-heater is for...?If you read my first reply, I've already said what its for: http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/so-i...l#pid17251
Quote:And, dont give some Utter daft rubbish about making the engine quieter--as you WELL KNOW it does Not!Clearly then, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT ITS FOR.
Quote:--The Fuel Injected, Will Be at Whatever Temperature The Cyl-Head and Injectors are atWrong. The fuel will be whatever is this; Tank ambient + injection pump contact heat added + compression in the pumping chamber.
Quote:so how does this make the thing quieter!By doing as described above, heating the fuel to 70*f, thinning it in cold weather so it will combust quicker and quieter. Thinner fuel atomizes easier, thats one of the main principals behind SVO users.
If the fuel heater is so important, why did MB never install one in the 48 years prior? Or is it just convenient that they suddenly decided it was necessary to keep their new "whisper diesel" alive in cold weather?
You push so hard for me to "give up and admit I'm wrong", yet you need to do the very same but don't. Take your own advice.
(09-05-2010, 05:28 PM)SicNick Forced and I live at the base of the rocky mountains and see severely cold temps every winter, well below 0* F on ocassion.Right. Its up to the fuel to prevent gelling before the engine is running. I've started my 240 on multiple -10*f and colder occasions (down to -22*f) with nothing more than a significantly extended glow period and quality #1 diesel.
There has been only one instance of gelled fuel in my car, and that was due to being stuck with #2 diesel left in the tank.
Quote:All that aside, anyone happen to know the thread size and pitch of the afformentioned water outlet so I can replace it with a regular hose clamp style heater hose fitting?Sorry, I don't have one on hand to measure.
ForcedInduction
09-05-2010, 10:36 PM
#8
(09-05-2010, 03:26 PM)Alastair E Ho-Hum....No, its the world according to how it works. If you had taken the time to research what you're talking about, you might understand what you're talking about.
Here we go again.......The 'World According to Forced.....'
Quote:OK, What do You reckon the fuel-heater is for...?If you read my first reply, I've already said what its for: http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/so-i...l#pid17251
Quote:And, dont give some Utter daft rubbish about making the engine quieter--as you WELL KNOW it does Not!Clearly then, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT ITS FOR.
Quote:--The Fuel Injected, Will Be at Whatever Temperature The Cyl-Head and Injectors are atWrong. The fuel will be whatever is this; Tank ambient + injection pump contact heat added + compression in the pumping chamber.
Quote:so how does this make the thing quieter!By doing as described above, heating the fuel to 70*f, thinning it in cold weather so it will combust quicker and quieter. Thinner fuel atomizes easier, thats one of the main principals behind SVO users.
If the fuel heater is so important, why did MB never install one in the 48 years prior? Or is it just convenient that they suddenly decided it was necessary to keep their new "whisper diesel" alive in cold weather?
You push so hard for me to "give up and admit I'm wrong", yet you need to do the very same but don't. Take your own advice.
(09-05-2010, 05:28 PM)SicNick Forced and I live at the base of the rocky mountains and see severely cold temps every winter, well below 0* F on ocassion.Right. Its up to the fuel to prevent gelling before the engine is running. I've started my 240 on multiple -10*f and colder occasions (down to -22*f) with nothing more than a significantly extended glow period and quality #1 diesel.
There has been only one instance of gelled fuel in my car, and that was due to being stuck with #2 diesel left in the tank.
Quote:All that aside, anyone happen to know the thread size and pitch of the afformentioned water outlet so I can replace it with a regular hose clamp style heater hose fitting?Sorry, I don't have one on hand to measure.
Tank, Lift-Pump-Fuel heater- Fuel Filter, Injection-Pump, Hard-Lines, then Finally Injector.....
So, the small amount of heat will stay in the fuel.....Diesel has approx Half the Specific Heat Capacity of Water, therefore half the heat Transfer effect per CC of flow....
Fuel flow is reasonable through filter and IP due to return-line, at approx 250ml per minute...
Fuel flow through Hard-Line and Injector At Idle is 0.9ccm Per 1000 Strokes.....
So, effectively, for 1cc -ish--of fuel to pass through the hard-line and Injector will take about 2 minutes assuming 1000 rpm Idle....
--One shot every two revs right....!
And, You say that the fuel --in contact with a cold injector in the cold head and a Cold Hard-Line and a cold I.P.-- will stay Hot?--How much in cc's capacity does this lot contain..?--Injector itself contains 2.8cc--I know, as Ive Measured it!
--Or conversely a cold fuel and a Hot Head/Injector will stay cold--seeing it will be in contact with this metal for say 1 minute?
What you're forgetting is the fuel flow is minute in the high-pressure circuit....
Come on!--Get Real!
Looking at it the other way, The fuel passing through LP then heater then filter and returned to tank, will heat the filter sufficiently--Which Was The Intention of the device--To Prevent Crystals of Parraffin Wax Blocking Fuel-Filter in fuel near its CFPP/Cloud-Point--Check out your M.B. Handbook--It says what its for in there Plus there is a plethora of Text-Books on the subject that will describe exactly the same!.....
QED....
Alastair E
09-06-2010, 04:58 AM #9Lets look at this logically...
Tank, Lift-Pump-Fuel heater- Fuel Filter, Injection-Pump, Hard-Lines, then Finally Injector.....
So, the small amount of heat will stay in the fuel.....Diesel has approx Half the Specific Heat Capacity of Water, therefore half the heat Transfer effect per CC of flow....
Fuel flow is reasonable through filter and IP due to return-line, at approx 250ml per minute...
Fuel flow through Hard-Line and Injector At Idle is 0.9ccm Per 1000 Strokes.....
So, effectively, for 1cc -ish--of fuel to pass through the hard-line and Injector will take about 2 minutes assuming 1000 rpm Idle....
--One shot every two revs right....!
And, You say that the fuel --in contact with a cold injector in the cold head and a Cold Hard-Line and a cold I.P.-- will stay Hot?--How much in cc's capacity does this lot contain..?--Injector itself contains 2.8cc--I know, as Ive Measured it!
--Or conversely a cold fuel and a Hot Head/Injector will stay cold--seeing it will be in contact with this metal for say 1 minute?
What you're forgetting is the fuel flow is minute in the high-pressure circuit....
Come on!--Get Real!
Looking at it the other way, The fuel passing through LP then heater then filter and returned to tank, will heat the filter sufficiently--Which Was The Intention of the device--To Prevent Crystals of Parraffin Wax Blocking Fuel-Filter in fuel near its CFPP/Cloud-Point--Check out your M.B. Handbook--It says what its for in there Plus there is a plethora of Text-Books on the subject that will describe exactly the same!.....
QED....
(09-06-2010, 04:58 AM)Alastair E Lets look at this logically.*sigh*
Please try to understand what is being discussed before going on a rant about a point you're completely missing.
Quote:Which Was The Intention of the device--To Prevent Crystals of Parraffin Wax Blocking Fuel-Filter in fuel near its CFPP/Cloud-PointPlease try to keep up.
If the fuel is near/at its wax point then the engine will not even start let alone run long enough for the coolant to get hot.
Quote:--Check out your M.B. Handbook--It says what its for in there Plus there is a plethora of Text-Books on the subject that will describe exactly the same!That is false.
Note: "for easier combustion in cold condition(s)".
If it were designed to enable an engine to start on gelled fuel, the system would be electrically heated and not engine coolant based.
Also, fuel quality in the mid 1980's was nowhere near what it is today.
Alastair, please stop polluting SicNick's thread and lets get it back on topic.
SicNik, this is the part you're describing?
I'd bet there is an o-ring in that connection. Most auto parts stores stock metric o-ring kits.
ForcedInduction
09-06-2010, 08:45 AM
#10
(09-06-2010, 04:58 AM)Alastair E Lets look at this logically.*sigh*
Please try to understand what is being discussed before going on a rant about a point you're completely missing.
Quote:Which Was The Intention of the device--To Prevent Crystals of Parraffin Wax Blocking Fuel-Filter in fuel near its CFPP/Cloud-PointPlease try to keep up.
If the fuel is near/at its wax point then the engine will not even start let alone run long enough for the coolant to get hot.
Quote:--Check out your M.B. Handbook--It says what its for in there Plus there is a plethora of Text-Books on the subject that will describe exactly the same!That is false.
Note: "for easier combustion in cold condition(s)".
If it were designed to enable an engine to start on gelled fuel, the system would be electrically heated and not engine coolant based.
Also, fuel quality in the mid 1980's was nowhere near what it is today.
Alastair, please stop polluting SicNick's thread and lets get it back on topic.
SicNik, this is the part you're describing?
I'd bet there is an o-ring in that connection. Most auto parts stores stock metric o-ring kits.
SicNick
09-06-2010, 10:13 AM #11Yes that was the piece I was talking about. I actually was convinced by buddy last night to tear it all apart and we were able to get a 1/2" NPT to 5/8ths barb heater hose fitting to fit in, tighten up, and hold water!(with a healthy does of pipe dope!) Also while in the area, I cranked the two screws ( full fuel, and idle travel) another 1/2 turn out, what a difference! Is turning these screws more exponential or linear? Since the last 1/2 turn adjustment seemed to make a huge difference!
ForcedInduction
09-06-2010, 11:08 AM
#12
There is a point of diminishing returns due to the longer and longer injection duration. Eventually nothing will keep EGTs at a safe temp because of it. Once you get around 115-120hp at the wheels youre at the end of its capabilities.
(09-06-2010, 11:08 AM)ForcedInduction There is a point of diminishing returns due to the longer and longer injection duration. Eventually nothing will keep EGTs at a safe temp because of it. Once you get around 115-120hp at the wheels youre at the end of its capabilities.
That's good to hear, Since I'd assume I'll never get that far as I don't want to kill this om601. Nice knowing the IP is capable of moving enough fuel for any amount of power I could reasonably expect. But this thing is a blast to drive! I can light up my 34" super swampers! I lve only driven so far on flat groundin fort Collins and below 50mph and haven't sen EGTs over 800* thanks again for the info guys, and I have to run to tubes and hoses tomorrow anyway, so I'll get that thread on the outlet IDed.
SicNick
09-06-2010, 05:44 PM #13(09-06-2010, 11:08 AM)ForcedInduction There is a point of diminishing returns due to the longer and longer injection duration. Eventually nothing will keep EGTs at a safe temp because of it. Once you get around 115-120hp at the wheels youre at the end of its capabilities.
That's good to hear, Since I'd assume I'll never get that far as I don't want to kill this om601. Nice knowing the IP is capable of moving enough fuel for any amount of power I could reasonably expect. But this thing is a blast to drive! I can light up my 34" super swampers! I lve only driven so far on flat groundin fort Collins and below 50mph and haven't sen EGTs over 800* thanks again for the info guys, and I have to run to tubes and hoses tomorrow anyway, so I'll get that thread on the outlet IDed.
ForcedInduction
09-07-2010, 06:29 AM
#14
Ah, thats right, 601. In that case change the peak figure to ~90hp at the wheels.
(09-07-2010, 06:29 AM)ForcedInduction Ah, thats right, 601. In that case change the peak figure to ~90hp at the wheels.
Haha thanks! The thread is M22x1.5 btw, and tubes and hoses in Loveland carries and adapter that goes from m22 male to 1/2npt female. So various heater hose conncetors would hook right up. I'm going to redo mine this way, but in a pinch, now we all know you CAN pipe dope a 1/2npt fitting in there!
SicNick
09-07-2010, 11:43 AM #15(09-07-2010, 06:29 AM)ForcedInduction Ah, thats right, 601. In that case change the peak figure to ~90hp at the wheels.
Haha thanks! The thread is M22x1.5 btw, and tubes and hoses in Loveland carries and adapter that goes from m22 male to 1/2npt female. So various heater hose conncetors would hook right up. I'm going to redo mine this way, but in a pinch, now we all know you CAN pipe dope a 1/2npt fitting in there!
SicNick
09-08-2010, 09:47 AM #16So after a few days of driving, something occured to me. While this last fueling adjustment resulted in more power and a little more gray haze at start up, there is still no black smoke under full load! Boost is around 3 psi and that's full throttle before it shifts to fourth. I'm currently about 1.5-1.66 turns out from what I assume was stock, how much more adjstment is there? I wonder if I should also try to advance the timing sligtly to accomodate the turbo and all. I will give this a shot if the consensous is that it won't decrease my motors cold starting ability.
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
09-08-2010, 09:48 AM #17Tubes and hoses in Loveland also got me all of my oil fittings/hoses for my 240d turbo kit!
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
Yes sir tubes and hoses is great, Justin is a good guy! He's helped me on all my turbo diesel projects Cummins or Mercedes!
SicNick
09-08-2010, 09:59 AM #18Oh also, I've been searching but haven't seen anything on the timing bump procedure. I assume it's loosen three mounted bolts and push top of IP in towards the motor a hair? I looks briefly last night and didn't see mounting bolt on the outside.
Yes sir tubes and hoses is great, Justin is a good guy! He's helped me on all my turbo diesel projects Cummins or Mercedes!
The procedure is to buy/make a drip tube, remove the #1 delivery valve, set the engine to the desired timing and move the pump until 1 drip per second comes out the pipe.
The OM60x engines have an adjustment screw, you can adjust timing with the engine running (designed for an electronic, MB specific, timing tool).
ForcedInduction
09-08-2010, 10:09 AM
#19
There is a bracket on the lower rear.
The procedure is to buy/make a drip tube, remove the #1 delivery valve, set the engine to the desired timing and move the pump until 1 drip per second comes out the pipe.
The OM60x engines have an adjustment screw, you can adjust timing with the engine running (designed for an electronic, MB specific, timing tool).
(09-08-2010, 10:09 AM)ForcedInduction There is a bracket on the lower rear.
The procedure is to buy/make a drip tube, remove the #1 delivery valve, set the engine to the desired timing and move the pump until 1 drip per second comes out the pipe.
The OM60x engines have an adjustment screw, you can adjust timing with the engine running (designed for an electronic, MB specific, timing tool).
Dang, I guess that's one nice thing about the distributor style VE pumps, timing bump is way easier!
So it would be Ill-advised to just find that adjustment screw and give it a little turn in the correct direction?
SicNick
09-08-2010, 10:20 AM #20(09-08-2010, 10:09 AM)ForcedInduction There is a bracket on the lower rear.
The procedure is to buy/make a drip tube, remove the #1 delivery valve, set the engine to the desired timing and move the pump until 1 drip per second comes out the pipe.
The OM60x engines have an adjustment screw, you can adjust timing with the engine running (designed for an electronic, MB specific, timing tool).
Dang, I guess that's one nice thing about the distributor style VE pumps, timing bump is way easier!
So it would be Ill-advised to just find that adjustment screw and give it a little turn in the correct direction?
ForcedInduction
09-08-2010, 10:26 AM
#21
A turn or two won't hurt. The OM617 loves an extra 2 degrees.
(09-08-2010, 10:26 AM)ForcedInduction A turn or two won't hurt. The OM617 loves an extra 2 degrees.
Great news! So then the question, where is the adjustment screw? And which way do I turn to advance the timing? (crosses fingers, hoping it's external)
ForcedInduction
09-08-2010, 11:27 AM
#23
On the outer edge of the flange. Rotate the pump towards the engine, so it should be CCW.
(09-08-2010, 11:27 AM)ForcedInduction On the outer edge of the flange. Rotate the pump towards the engine, so it should be CCW.
Very cool, it looks like my pump has a 8mm allen head adjuster at that spot, so I assume you loosen the three front mounting nuts (at the slotted locations shown in your above pic) and the one in the rear then crank that CCW to advance the timing? The mounting nuts on mine are square or rectangular is that normal?
SicNick
09-08-2010, 12:25 PM #24(09-08-2010, 11:27 AM)ForcedInduction On the outer edge of the flange. Rotate the pump towards the engine, so it should be CCW.
Very cool, it looks like my pump has a 8mm allen head adjuster at that spot, so I assume you loosen the three front mounting nuts (at the slotted locations shown in your above pic) and the one in the rear then crank that CCW to advance the timing? The mounting nuts on mine are square or rectangular is that normal?
Access is between radiator and block, IIRC, 13mm head.
On the 61x engines you have 3 nuts to loosen at the flange...(+the one at the rear of the IP).
Tom
on the 60x engines the fixing of the IP flange is by 3 (long) screws from the front of the engine. Hard to find between the belt, located around the vac pump. (+ the one at the rear of the IP).
Access is between radiator and block, IIRC, 13mm head.
On the 61x engines you have 3 nuts to loosen at the flange...(+the one at the rear of the IP).
Tom
(09-08-2010, 11:53 PM)tomnik on the 60x engines the fixing of the IP flange is by 3 (long) screws from the front of the engine. Hard to find between the belt, located around the vac pump. (+ the one at the rear of the IP).
Access is between radiator and block, IIRC, 13mm head.
Tom
Perfect! That makes much more sense. I was looking from behind and thought...It sure looks like the should be bolts in front, but didn't have time to look before work. Thanks again gentlemen.
SicNick
09-09-2010, 12:04 AM #26(09-08-2010, 11:53 PM)tomnik on the 60x engines the fixing of the IP flange is by 3 (long) screws from the front of the engine. Hard to find between the belt, located around the vac pump. (+ the one at the rear of the IP).
Access is between radiator and block, IIRC, 13mm head.
Tom
Perfect! That makes much more sense. I was looking from behind and thought...It sure looks like the should be bolts in front, but didn't have time to look before work. Thanks again gentlemen.
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