BOSCH inline pump swap ?
BOSCH inline pump swap ?
I know that Bosch makes many inline pumps varying in sizes for 4 up to 12 cylinder applications
what about building a custom flange/adapter plate to mount up the next size pump for our engines?
for example in my OM603, I am not sure what the next step in the bosch family is from my pump, but somewhere along that line comes the inline 6cyl pump used on the 5.9L cummins engine, now that pump has larger EVERYTHING. so assuming I could mount it up to my engine using the same chain, but thru some type of driveshaft adapter.
this pump is designed for an engine almost 50% larger (3.0L vs 5.9L)
and can deliver way more fuel
what happens using this pump plumbed thru stock injectors ?
it seems like higher pressure thru the injector over the same period of time
will deliver more fuel. 50% more ?.. not sure
is the cam profile/duration etc. similar on a DI engine vs a IDI engine ?
will the stock injectors hold up to this increased pressure ?
does increased pressure to the injector means, it pops earlier in the cycle and in turn advances the timing ?
what about stepping up to the next size injectors ?
how to bring idle back under control?
will a larger pump be able to deliver a small enough amount of fuel
to idle a OM603 under 800RPM ?
will the throttle response be hard to control ?
I know this is by far a complete list of issues, and the work to make this happen is very complex, but it can be done..
is it worth it on a street driven car ?
are we better off modifying the stock pump ?
probably, but it seems like finding/sourcing the correct parts (elements/DV's etc) is tough
these Cummins/Bosch P7100 pumps are everywhere in the junkyards for not much $$
Maybe I am way off base on this ( I usually am )
but I am interested in the feedback of the Borg Hive mind
anyway here is a photo that was part of my motivation for this:
![[Image: TSShootout08021.jpg]](http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x275/DIXIEDIRT/TSShootout08021.jpg)
cars
1991 W126 350SDL turbodiesel
1987 W124 E300D turbodiesel
1987 W126 300SDL turbodiesel
1984 W107 SL300D turbodiesel
1974 W115 /8 300D diesel
trucks
2001 Dodge RAM 3500 4x4 Cummins turbodiesel
boats
1974 Uniflite "Salty Dog" powered by
2x OM617.951 Mercedes Benz 5Cyl turbodiesels
oel_brenner
01-10-2009, 12:33 PM #1just some food for thought for the collective mind on this forum...
I know that Bosch makes many inline pumps varying in sizes for 4 up to 12 cylinder applications
what about building a custom flange/adapter plate to mount up the next size pump for our engines?
for example in my OM603, I am not sure what the next step in the bosch family is from my pump, but somewhere along that line comes the inline 6cyl pump used on the 5.9L cummins engine, now that pump has larger EVERYTHING. so assuming I could mount it up to my engine using the same chain, but thru some type of driveshaft adapter.
this pump is designed for an engine almost 50% larger (3.0L vs 5.9L)
and can deliver way more fuel
what happens using this pump plumbed thru stock injectors ?
it seems like higher pressure thru the injector over the same period of time
will deliver more fuel. 50% more ?.. not sure
is the cam profile/duration etc. similar on a DI engine vs a IDI engine ?
will the stock injectors hold up to this increased pressure ?
does increased pressure to the injector means, it pops earlier in the cycle and in turn advances the timing ?
what about stepping up to the next size injectors ?
how to bring idle back under control?
will a larger pump be able to deliver a small enough amount of fuel
to idle a OM603 under 800RPM ?
will the throttle response be hard to control ?
I know this is by far a complete list of issues, and the work to make this happen is very complex, but it can be done..
is it worth it on a street driven car ?
are we better off modifying the stock pump ?
probably, but it seems like finding/sourcing the correct parts (elements/DV's etc) is tough
these Cummins/Bosch P7100 pumps are everywhere in the junkyards for not much $$
Maybe I am way off base on this ( I usually am )
but I am interested in the feedback of the Borg Hive mind
anyway here is a photo that was part of my motivation for this:
cars
1991 W126 350SDL turbodiesel
1987 W124 E300D turbodiesel
1987 W126 300SDL turbodiesel
1984 W107 SL300D turbodiesel
1974 W115 /8 300D diesel
trucks
2001 Dodge RAM 3500 4x4 Cummins turbodiesel
boats
1974 Uniflite "Salty Dog" powered by
2x OM617.951 Mercedes Benz 5Cyl turbodiesels
The M-Pump has 7mm plungers which is good for 400/500+ on 5/6 cyl. engines.
The MW-pump has 8 and 10mm plungers which would be good for well over 500hp.
If you can build up an old 3.0L engine to hold together putting down that much torque, mounting a custom pump wouldn't be much of a challenge.
ForcedInduction
01-10-2009, 05:31 PM
#2
There isn't really much of a need.
The M-Pump has 7mm plungers which is good for 400/500+ on 5/6 cyl. engines.
The MW-pump has 8 and 10mm plungers which would be good for well over 500hp.
If you can build up an old 3.0L engine to hold together putting down that much torque, mounting a custom pump wouldn't be much of a challenge.
(01-10-2009, 05:31 PM)ForcedInduction If you can build up an old 3.0L engine to hold together putting down that much torque, mounting a custom pump wouldn't be much of a challenge.
well I have to agree there..
just thought it might be cool to "Lincolnlock" a big ass pump on there
but my pump on my 603 only has 5.5mm elements
is there a definitive resource somewhere that has information on what elements are available for each pump ?
and part #'s and source / price information
and what theoretical HP range can be achieved with each element size ?
if not we should compile one.. I know some of this information is scattered around this site among several threads and other sites as well.
maybe I'll start with the PES 6M xxC 320 RS 157 pump
( the pump on the OM603 shipped with a W124 )
and we can make a sticky thread as a reference ?
here is a good start for the MW pump:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p...qyAJ0XqRCA
cars
1991 W126 350SDL turbodiesel
1987 W124 E300D turbodiesel
1987 W126 300SDL turbodiesel
1984 W107 SL300D turbodiesel
1974 W115 /8 300D diesel
trucks
2001 Dodge RAM 3500 4x4 Cummins turbodiesel
boats
1974 Uniflite "Salty Dog" powered by
2x OM617.951 Mercedes Benz 5Cyl turbodiesels
oel_brenner
01-10-2009, 07:36 PM #3(01-10-2009, 05:31 PM)ForcedInduction If you can build up an old 3.0L engine to hold together putting down that much torque, mounting a custom pump wouldn't be much of a challenge.
well I have to agree there..
just thought it might be cool to "Lincolnlock" a big ass pump on there
but my pump on my 603 only has 5.5mm elements
is there a definitive resource somewhere that has information on what elements are available for each pump ?
and part #'s and source / price information
and what theoretical HP range can be achieved with each element size ?
if not we should compile one.. I know some of this information is scattered around this site among several threads and other sites as well.
maybe I'll start with the PES 6M xxC 320 RS 157 pump
( the pump on the OM603 shipped with a W124 )
and we can make a sticky thread as a reference ?
here is a good start for the MW pump:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p...qyAJ0XqRCA
cars
1991 W126 350SDL turbodiesel
1987 W124 E300D turbodiesel
1987 W126 300SDL turbodiesel
1984 W107 SL300D turbodiesel
1974 W115 /8 300D diesel
trucks
2001 Dodge RAM 3500 4x4 Cummins turbodiesel
boats
1974 Uniflite "Salty Dog" powered by
2x OM617.951 Mercedes Benz 5Cyl turbodiesels
Gross Polluter
01-11-2009, 12:31 AM #4When I was in the thought process of my current project I had considered the 240D engine for the ability to fit one of the many other 4 cylinder pumps out there from another engine. Doing such a thing on the OM617 would be near impossible since there aren't many (if any) other 5 cylinder diesels out there.
ForcedInduction
01-11-2009, 03:10 AM
#5
Audi, Iveco and Deutz are the most common non-MB 5 banger builders.
(01-10-2009, 07:36 PM)oel_brenner is there a definitive resource somewhere that has information on what elements are available for each pump ?
and part #'s and source / price information
M: elements: 6, 6.5, 7 mm 45 EUR/each
delivery valves: 18 EUR/each
nozzles: 36 EUR/each
MW: elements: 6 mm Holly 75 EUR/each, 6.5 Holly in progress
8 mm 82 EUR/each
nozzles: 36 EUR/each (same as for M)
all parts after market (Hollys custom made).
Btw. I was offered 603a IPs, brand new. Can you imagine a group project for 7 mm + DV mods on new IPs?
Tom
(01-10-2009, 07:36 PM)oel_brenner is there a definitive resource somewhere that has information on what elements are available for each pump ?
and part #'s and source / price information
M: elements: 6, 6.5, 7 mm 45 EUR/each
delivery valves: 18 EUR/each
nozzles: 36 EUR/each
MW: elements: 6 mm Holly 75 EUR/each, 6.5 Holly in progress
8 mm 82 EUR/each
nozzles: 36 EUR/each (same as for M)
all parts after market (Hollys custom made).
Btw. I was offered 603a IPs, brand new. Can you imagine a group project for 7 mm + DV mods on new IPs?
Tom
(01-11-2009, 09:20 AM)tomnik M: elements: 6, 6.5, 7 mm 45 EUR/each
delivery valves: 18 EUR/each
nozzles: 36 EUR/each
all parts after market (Hollys custom made).
Tom
these are the elements you are custom making ?
also, does anyone know what other "M" pumps were made and what they were installed in ?
... is there some type of truck or that had a M pump with 6 or 7MM elements in it ?
go find em in the junkyard and start harvesting pumps !
thats why I was wondering about the pump swap.. those "P" pumps on the cummins ISB's are EVERYWHERE in the yards.. ( and cheap !)
if I know what to look for, Ill go yard diving
maybe its just wishful thinking
cars
1991 W126 350SDL turbodiesel
1987 W124 E300D turbodiesel
1987 W126 300SDL turbodiesel
1984 W107 SL300D turbodiesel
1974 W115 /8 300D diesel
trucks
2001 Dodge RAM 3500 4x4 Cummins turbodiesel
boats
1974 Uniflite "Salty Dog" powered by
2x OM617.951 Mercedes Benz 5Cyl turbodiesels
oel_brenner
01-11-2009, 08:54 PM #7(01-11-2009, 09:20 AM)tomnik M: elements: 6, 6.5, 7 mm 45 EUR/each
delivery valves: 18 EUR/each
nozzles: 36 EUR/each
all parts after market (Hollys custom made).
Tom
these are the elements you are custom making ?
also, does anyone know what other "M" pumps were made and what they were installed in ?
... is there some type of truck or that had a M pump with 6 or 7MM elements in it ?
go find em in the junkyard and start harvesting pumps !
thats why I was wondering about the pump swap.. those "P" pumps on the cummins ISB's are EVERYWHERE in the yards.. ( and cheap !)
if I know what to look for, Ill go yard diving
maybe its just wishful thinking
cars
1991 W126 350SDL turbodiesel
1987 W124 E300D turbodiesel
1987 W126 300SDL turbodiesel
1984 W107 SL300D turbodiesel
1974 W115 /8 300D diesel
trucks
2001 Dodge RAM 3500 4x4 Cummins turbodiesel
boats
1974 Uniflite "Salty Dog" powered by
2x OM617.951 Mercedes Benz 5Cyl turbodiesels
I.e. 6.5 mm M are in some agriculture things (IHC D432).
But this is a 4 cyl.
My opinion: Even when you get the IPs for free, you have to take the elements out.
Then spending the same amount of money to swap and adjust and that with used elements?
Maybe it works in one single case, but not a plan that is reproduce able.
Tom
No, my custom made are MW, not M.
I.e. 6.5 mm M are in some agriculture things (IHC D432).
But this is a 4 cyl.
My opinion: Even when you get the IPs for free, you have to take the elements out.
Then spending the same amount of money to swap and adjust and that with used elements?
Maybe it works in one single case, but not a plan that is reproduce able.
Tom
thanks Nathan
winequip_td
04-05-2009, 10:40 PM #9oel_brenner do you still have access to the m pump 7mm elements for 45euro? currently building a superturbo
thanks Nathan
'78 300D, OM617.912: 4spd manual, TB03 at 10PSI, 26*BTDC, DV's turned, HVAC, emissions system removed, e-fan, short ram, 3" downpipe to straight exhaust, W126 Bendix brakes, MR2 Spyder seats. 2890lbs
thanks Nathan
winequip_td
04-06-2009, 09:55 PM #11sorry my last post was for Tomnik not oel_brenner. I misread the post, oel_brenner's post was referencing something that Tomnik was saying. Sorry for the confusion, but I am still interested in the 7mm elements.
thanks Nathan
(04-06-2009, 09:55 PM)winequip_td sorry my last post was for Tomnik not oel_brenner. I misread the post, oel_brenner's post was referencing something that Tomnik was saying. Sorry for the confusion, but I am still interested in the 7mm elements.
thanks Nathan
Hi,
yes I have left at least one set of 7 mm M-elements (Myna) for 45 EUR/piece. Send me a PM.
kamel: 2 sets=10 pieces you mean MW-elements?
Tom
(04-06-2009, 09:55 PM)winequip_td sorry my last post was for Tomnik not oel_brenner. I misread the post, oel_brenner's post was referencing something that Tomnik was saying. Sorry for the confusion, but I am still interested in the 7mm elements.
thanks Nathan
Hi,
yes I have left at least one set of 7 mm M-elements (Myna) for 45 EUR/piece. Send me a PM.
kamel: 2 sets=10 pieces you mean MW-elements?
Tom
(01-11-2009, 08:54 PM)oel_brenner thats why I was wondering about the pump swap.. those "P" pumps on the cummins ISB's are EVERYWHERE in the yards.. ( and cheap !)
How cheap is cheap? I'm building a 12valve cummins and am looking for a P-7100 pump with drive gear, gear case, and injector lines... All the ones I'm finding are ungodly expensive (Close to $1000 for that stuff)
deerefanatic
09-07-2009, 06:57 AM #13(01-11-2009, 08:54 PM)oel_brenner thats why I was wondering about the pump swap.. those "P" pumps on the cummins ISB's are EVERYWHERE in the yards.. ( and cheap !)
How cheap is cheap? I'm building a 12valve cummins and am looking for a P-7100 pump with drive gear, gear case, and injector lines... All the ones I'm finding are ungodly expensive (Close to $1000 for that stuff)
(09-07-2009, 06:57 AM)deerefanatic All the ones I'm finding are ungodly expensive (Close to $1000 for that stuff)Thats because everybody knows everyone wants them for performance. You'll probably have to hold out until you find somebody that doesn't know what they have. Search odd keywords and common misspellings on ebay.
ForcedInduction
09-07-2009, 07:04 AM
#14
(09-07-2009, 06:57 AM)deerefanatic All the ones I'm finding are ungodly expensive (Close to $1000 for that stuff)Thats because everybody knows everyone wants them for performance. You'll probably have to hold out until you find somebody that doesn't know what they have. Search odd keywords and common misspellings on ebay.
deerefanatic
09-07-2009, 07:07 AM #15Yep, exactly.... Just wondering if this yard he was talkin' about "didn't know"
Tomnik, You are in Germany, right?
PES 6 M55 C320 RS 157-1
BTW
7mm M-elements we can find in OM615.940, W123 200D 40-44 kW
Pump no.
0 400 084 008
PES 4 M 70 C 321 RS 54
MN 60 M 45 DR
Can someone give me parts number for the 6,5 mm plungers who fits in my M-pump(OM603A).
Tomnik, You are in Germany, right?
PES 6 M55 C320 RS 157-1
BTW
7mm M-elements we can find in OM615.940, W123 200D 40-44 kW
Pump no.
0 400 084 008
PES 4 M 70 C 321 RS 54
MN 60 M 45 DR
(10-08-2009, 07:41 AM)Einar Tomnik, You are in Germany, right?
PES 6 M55 C320 RS 157-1
BTW
7mm M-elements we can find in OM615.940, W123 200D 40-44 kW
Pump no.
0 400 084 008
PES 4 M 70 C 321 RS 54
MN 60 M 45 DR
Germany, correct.
The a.m. pump is out of a Ford, not MB. All OM61x and OM 60x have 5.5mm elements, except OM606 (6mm 1 418 305 554)
Tom
(10-08-2009, 07:41 AM)Einar Tomnik, You are in Germany, right?
PES 6 M55 C320 RS 157-1
BTW
7mm M-elements we can find in OM615.940, W123 200D 40-44 kW
Pump no.
0 400 084 008
PES 4 M 70 C 321 RS 54
MN 60 M 45 DR
Germany, correct.
The a.m. pump is out of a Ford, not MB. All OM61x and OM 60x have 5.5mm elements, except OM606 (6mm 1 418 305 554)
Tom
605A have 6mm elements too.
http://www.dieselevante.com/cat_pompe_in...e_2007.pdf
605A have 6mm elements too.
Tom
Sorry Rolf for the confusion
this site (http://www.dieselevante.com/cat_pompe_in...e_iniezion) is full of mistakes. Don't take it as the Bible.
Tom
Sorry Rolf for the confusion
(01-11-2009, 09:20 AM)tomnik Btw. I was offered 603a IPs, brand new.
I'm all ears. I'd love to find a good IP off an OM603 - for when I decide to turn the daily driver into something more exciting.
Cheers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
10-21-2009, 12:27 PM #23(01-11-2009, 09:20 AM)tomnik Btw. I was offered 603a IPs, brand new.
I'm all ears. I'd love to find a good IP off an OM603 - for when I decide to turn the daily driver into something more exciting.
Cheers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
(10-21-2009, 03:05 PM)tomnik Matt,
when you swap the elements you usually use a new seal/gasket kit for the IP,all bearings are checked, except the used look it is like new.
The brand new ones I have are equipped with the pneumatic idle stabilizer only.
What are you looking for?
Tom
I'm looking for an M or MW pump to bolt onto my OM606.962 (I can never seem to remember whether the M or MW was more desirable with the Superturbo crowd...)
The engine is currently in my bone stock daily driver W210 - but I want to eventually install either a 4L80-E or T56 and a mechanical IP of some description - amongst other mods to make it a 400+hp rig.
I'm quite familiar with the Bosch P7100...but the work that would probably be required to chain drive a normally gear driven IP might be outside the realm of what I want to attempt.
Cheers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
10-22-2009, 12:51 PM #25(10-21-2009, 03:05 PM)tomnik Matt,
when you swap the elements you usually use a new seal/gasket kit for the IP,all bearings are checked, except the used look it is like new.
The brand new ones I have are equipped with the pneumatic idle stabilizer only.
What are you looking for?
Tom
I'm looking for an M or MW pump to bolt onto my OM606.962 (I can never seem to remember whether the M or MW was more desirable with the Superturbo crowd...)
The engine is currently in my bone stock daily driver W210 - but I want to eventually install either a 4L80-E or T56 and a mechanical IP of some description - amongst other mods to make it a 400+hp rig.
I'm quite familiar with the Bosch P7100...but the work that would probably be required to chain drive a normally gear driven IP might be outside the realm of what I want to attempt.
Cheers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
the M is the IP you need for the 606 engine.
You could get in contact with Kartek for necessary or unused electronics concerning the IP. As I wrote, the ones I have only have the pneumatic idle stabilizer on the backside. I want 200 EUROs as it is +shipping but it would make sense to swap elements before shipping
Tom
Matt,
the M is the IP you need for the 606 engine.
You could get in contact with Kartek for necessary or unused electronics concerning the IP. As I wrote, the ones I have only have the pneumatic idle stabilizer on the backside. I want 200 EUROs as it is +shipping but it would make sense to swap elements before shipping
Tom
(10-22-2009, 02:59 PM)tomnik Matt,
the M is the IP you need for the 606 engine.
You could get in contact with Kartek for necessary or unused electronics concerning the IP. As I wrote, the ones I have only have the pneumatic idle stabilizer on the backside. I want 200 EUROs as it is +shipping but it would make sense to swap elements before shipping
Tom
Duly noted...thanks!
Electronics? On an M pump?
Regards,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
10-28-2009, 10:28 AM #27(10-22-2009, 02:59 PM)tomnik Matt,
the M is the IP you need for the 606 engine.
You could get in contact with Kartek for necessary or unused electronics concerning the IP. As I wrote, the ones I have only have the pneumatic idle stabilizer on the backside. I want 200 EUROs as it is +shipping but it would make sense to swap elements before shipping
Tom
Duly noted...thanks!
Electronics? On an M pump?
Regards,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
I also have a pump from an OM603.971 in reserve in case the computer proves unable to maintain proper control of the engine with the 7mm elements installed. I'm really hoping to use the e pump as I want to retain the cruise functionality as well as idle control and all the other convience features.
It would be a real PITA to adapt for the drive by wire to work properly on the mechanical pump.
I plan on using the stock electronics on my M(e) pump aside from possibly modifying the signal from the rack position sensing circuit.
I also have a pump from an OM603.971 in reserve in case the computer proves unable to maintain proper control of the engine with the 7mm elements installed. I'm really hoping to use the e pump as I want to retain the cruise functionality as well as idle control and all the other convience features.
It would be a real PITA to adapt for the drive by wire to work properly on the mechanical pump.
(10-29-2009, 07:27 AM)E300TSC I plan on using the stock electronics on my M(e) pump aside from possibly modifying the signal from the rack position sensing circuit.
I also have a pump from an OM603.971 in reserve in case the computer proves unable to maintain proper control of the engine with the 7mm elements installed. I'm really hoping to use the e pump as I want to retain the cruise functionality as well as idle control and all the other convience features.
It would be a real PITA to adapt for the drive by wire to work properly on the mechanical pump.
I'll be watching your progress. Methinks it will give you some issues.
Is there a "VAG-COM" for MB's? The VW's can hack at some operational parameters stored in the ECM using VAG-COM...
The drive by wire on the OM606.962 is a heck of a lot easier to adapt to mechanical IP linkage than other drive by wire vehicles. Most DBW throttles have a potentiometer AT the accelerator pedal - at least we have a cable headed out under the hood where the potentiometer is located...that's a major step in the right direction.
Issues with running a mechanical M pump:
Making the 722.6 shift (just upgrade to a 4L80-E or T56!
)Getting gauges/tach to work
No cruise control
HVAC, charging system - they'd both probably like to know that the engine is running...and at what RPM it's at.
etc...
Have you considered enlarged injector nozzles in lieu of or in addition to the larger pump elements? Installing larger nozzles would be a lot less invasive and much easier to reverse...
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
10-29-2009, 01:03 PM #29(10-29-2009, 07:27 AM)E300TSC I plan on using the stock electronics on my M(e) pump aside from possibly modifying the signal from the rack position sensing circuit.
I also have a pump from an OM603.971 in reserve in case the computer proves unable to maintain proper control of the engine with the 7mm elements installed. I'm really hoping to use the e pump as I want to retain the cruise functionality as well as idle control and all the other convience features.
It would be a real PITA to adapt for the drive by wire to work properly on the mechanical pump.
I'll be watching your progress. Methinks it will give you some issues.
Is there a "VAG-COM" for MB's? The VW's can hack at some operational parameters stored in the ECM using VAG-COM...
The drive by wire on the OM606.962 is a heck of a lot easier to adapt to mechanical IP linkage than other drive by wire vehicles. Most DBW throttles have a potentiometer AT the accelerator pedal - at least we have a cable headed out under the hood where the potentiometer is located...that's a major step in the right direction.
Issues with running a mechanical M pump:
Making the 722.6 shift (just upgrade to a 4L80-E or T56!
)Getting gauges/tach to work
No cruise control
HVAC, charging system - they'd both probably like to know that the engine is running...and at what RPM it's at.
etc...
Have you considered enlarged injector nozzles in lieu of or in addition to the larger pump elements? Installing larger nozzles would be a lot less invasive and much easier to reverse...
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
(10-29-2009, 01:03 PM)HoleshotHolset Issues with running a mechanical M pump:
Making the 722.6 shift (just upgrade to a 4L80-E or T56!
Getting gauges/tach to work
No cruise control
HVAC, charging system - they'd both probably like to know that the engine is running...and at what RPM it's at.
etc...
The approach I was going to use with integrating the mechanical pump was to find a compatible electronic throttle positioner (Corvette C5, later model Mercedes gasser, Toyota Tundra, etc...) and mount it outside the IP with a small linkage to the throttle lever on the pump.
Should address all of these issues.
(10-29-2009, 01:03 PM)HoleshotHolset Have you considered enlarged injector nozzles in lieu of or in addition to the larger pump elements? Installing larger nozzles would be a lot less invasive and much easier to reverse...
Beers,
Matt
I have a set of custom nozzles from Tomnik ready to go in once I get an initial dyno run completed.
(10-29-2009, 01:03 PM)HoleshotHolset Issues with running a mechanical M pump:
Making the 722.6 shift (just upgrade to a 4L80-E or T56!
Getting gauges/tach to work
No cruise control
HVAC, charging system - they'd both probably like to know that the engine is running...and at what RPM it's at.
etc...
The approach I was going to use with integrating the mechanical pump was to find a compatible electronic throttle positioner (Corvette C5, later model Mercedes gasser, Toyota Tundra, etc...) and mount it outside the IP with a small linkage to the throttle lever on the pump.
Should address all of these issues.
(10-29-2009, 01:03 PM)HoleshotHolset Have you considered enlarged injector nozzles in lieu of or in addition to the larger pump elements? Installing larger nozzles would be a lot less invasive and much easier to reverse...
Beers,
Matt
I have a set of custom nozzles from Tomnik ready to go in once I get an initial dyno run completed.
Evan provided info on Bosch throttle position sensor some days ago.
I hope he is o.k. with it adding the attachment.
Tom
Hi,
Evan provided info on Bosch throttle position sensor some days ago.
I hope he is o.k. with it adding the attachment.
Tom
(10-30-2009, 07:17 AM)E300TSC I am actually referring to a throttle positioner (stellungsregler), the servo that moves the throttle mechanism inresponse to the computer input.
Why?
To mount a mechanical pump on an OM606.962, the only thing you need to do is convince the rest of the car that the engine is running by providing the proper operational characteristics. By the same token - to date, I haven't seen any data to support the going theory that the electronic pump isn't capable of higher HP levels.
Without knowing your intentions, adding a throttle servo to make a mechanical pump drive-by-wire seems unnecessarily complex on the surface. If you're after throttle position parameters, there's easy solutions for that - as you're well aware.
How were you planning on controlling everything - aftermarket ECM or OEM?
If we can get enough fuel to support sizable gains with the OEM electronic IP, still retain the OEM ECM, achieve a smooth idle, maintain cruise control, etc. - I see no reason to ditch the OEM electronic IP.
We just need to fool the ECM into thinking everything is OK after we've messed with a lot of things - surely the IP is capable of full rack travel...
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
10-30-2009, 03:59 PM #33(10-30-2009, 07:17 AM)E300TSC I am actually referring to a throttle positioner (stellungsregler), the servo that moves the throttle mechanism inresponse to the computer input.
Why?
To mount a mechanical pump on an OM606.962, the only thing you need to do is convince the rest of the car that the engine is running by providing the proper operational characteristics. By the same token - to date, I haven't seen any data to support the going theory that the electronic pump isn't capable of higher HP levels.
Without knowing your intentions, adding a throttle servo to make a mechanical pump drive-by-wire seems unnecessarily complex on the surface. If you're after throttle position parameters, there's easy solutions for that - as you're well aware.
How were you planning on controlling everything - aftermarket ECM or OEM?
If we can get enough fuel to support sizable gains with the OEM electronic IP, still retain the OEM ECM, achieve a smooth idle, maintain cruise control, etc. - I see no reason to ditch the OEM electronic IP.
We just need to fool the ECM into thinking everything is OK after we've messed with a lot of things - surely the IP is capable of full rack travel...
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
(10-30-2009, 03:59 PM)HoleshotHolset Why?
To mount a mechanical pump on an OM606.962, the only thing you need to do is convince the rest of the car that the engine is running by providing the proper operational characteristics. By the same token - to date, I haven't seen any data to support the going theory that the electronic pump isn't capable of higher HP levels.
If we can get enough fuel to support sizable gains with the OEM electronic IP, still retain the OEM ECM, achieve a smooth idle, maintain cruise control, etc. - I see no reason to ditch the OEM electronic IP.
We just need to fool the ECM into thinking everything is OK after we've messed with a lot of things - surely the IP is capable of full rack travel...
Beers,
Matt
That's exactly my plan. I was only brainstorming the possibilities for controlling a mech. pump if the elements were not compatible or the resolution of the ECU isn't sufficient to maintain a smooth idle.
I have a jet engine at home that has a home made computer frequency feedback fuel control. It's really squirrely at idle or if the load comes off of it suddenly at higher powers and the home brewed ECU keeps it well under control. This equates to a max overshoot of 5% at 60,000 RPM.
I didn't build the ECU but I have a pretty good understanding of how it operates.
Appologies to the original poster as this discussion has gone pretty far off track...
(10-30-2009, 03:59 PM)HoleshotHolset Why?
To mount a mechanical pump on an OM606.962, the only thing you need to do is convince the rest of the car that the engine is running by providing the proper operational characteristics. By the same token - to date, I haven't seen any data to support the going theory that the electronic pump isn't capable of higher HP levels.
If we can get enough fuel to support sizable gains with the OEM electronic IP, still retain the OEM ECM, achieve a smooth idle, maintain cruise control, etc. - I see no reason to ditch the OEM electronic IP.
We just need to fool the ECM into thinking everything is OK after we've messed with a lot of things - surely the IP is capable of full rack travel...
Beers,
Matt
That's exactly my plan. I was only brainstorming the possibilities for controlling a mech. pump if the elements were not compatible or the resolution of the ECU isn't sufficient to maintain a smooth idle.
I have a jet engine at home that has a home made computer frequency feedback fuel control. It's really squirrely at idle or if the load comes off of it suddenly at higher powers and the home brewed ECU keeps it well under control. This equates to a max overshoot of 5% at 60,000 RPM.
I didn't build the ECU but I have a pretty good understanding of how it operates.
Appologies to the original poster as this discussion has gone pretty far off track...
(10-30-2009, 05:30 PM)E300TSC That's exactly my plan. I was only brainstorming the possibilities for controlling a mech. pump if the elements were not compatible or the resolution of the ECU isn't sufficient to maintain a smooth idle.
OK - gotcha. We're on the same page.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
11-02-2009, 12:16 PM #35(10-30-2009, 05:30 PM)E300TSC That's exactly my plan. I was only brainstorming the possibilities for controlling a mech. pump if the elements were not compatible or the resolution of the ECU isn't sufficient to maintain a smooth idle.
OK - gotcha. We're on the same page.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
The more I think about which direction to go with adding power to the OM606, the more tempting it is to try and adapt the P7100 pump. It already rotates the same way and shares the same 1-5-3-6-2-4 firing order. It especially makes sense here in the US, where every diesel shop in town is familiar with repairing and modifying this pump.
The commonly found Dodge pumps usually have 11-12mm elements, so a stock pump would suffice for pretty much any power goal imaginable on the OM606. Really, it would be a matter of using different sized fuel restrictors to achieve desired power levels, since unrestricted it would probably shred the drivetrain on anything but a fully built race car and smoke like a factory.
Finally, I am sure many on here have seen this 10mm P pump video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXOT6g1DzmM
Irony.cc
Bringing this thread from the dead to ask if anybody has looked further into this possibility.
The more I think about which direction to go with adding power to the OM606, the more tempting it is to try and adapt the P7100 pump. It already rotates the same way and shares the same 1-5-3-6-2-4 firing order. It especially makes sense here in the US, where every diesel shop in town is familiar with repairing and modifying this pump.
The commonly found Dodge pumps usually have 11-12mm elements, so a stock pump would suffice for pretty much any power goal imaginable on the OM606. Really, it would be a matter of using different sized fuel restrictors to achieve desired power levels, since unrestricted it would probably shred the drivetrain on anything but a fully built race car and smoke like a factory.
Finally, I am sure many on here have seen this 10mm P pump video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXOT6g1DzmM
Irony.cc
that idea of the p pump, it does work, well maybe it will not be as good as a M can be...
the pump in the picture is P? or is a MW for tractors? that governor look very alike a variable load governor used in tractors. maybe is a pump from a jonh deere 6 cyl engine, at some point ford used this pumps as well , despite i never seen a ford 6 cyl.
i ve seen many P type in construction machinery and trucks the problema is this engines have peak RPM of 2500, at most so a pump from a engine like this wont be of much use , unless u find a way of having the governor prepared to run in the 6k.
i have sugestion for u, u can fit a 6 cyl rotary stile distribuitor, in wich u can use many types, modify the engine for DI and u´ll have the noise, smoke and power like a cummins... lol .
the only cummins i know are water pumps , copies of perkins , f&%$ noisy and full of problems.
BTW a 8mm M with 150cc isn´t enough for u?
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
hy ,
that idea of the p pump, it does work, well maybe it will not be as good as a M can be...
the pump in the picture is P? or is a MW for tractors? that governor look very alike a variable load governor used in tractors. maybe is a pump from a jonh deere 6 cyl engine, at some point ford used this pumps as well , despite i never seen a ford 6 cyl.
i ve seen many P type in construction machinery and trucks the problema is this engines have peak RPM of 2500, at most so a pump from a engine like this wont be of much use , unless u find a way of having the governor prepared to run in the 6k.
i have sugestion for u, u can fit a 6 cyl rotary stile distribuitor, in wich u can use many types, modify the engine for DI and u´ll have the noise, smoke and power like a cummins... lol .
the only cummins i know are water pumps , copies of perkins , f&%$ noisy and full of problems.
BTW a 8mm M with 150cc isn´t enough for u?
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
Just look at some of this aftermarket junk:
http://cppdiesel.com/p7100-pumps-components/#
It is not that an M pump with 7.5 or 8mm elements is not enough. If anything, I would want to limit the fuel for a safe 300-350hp, at least for the time being, even if I do end going with a Superpump.
My main reasoning behind trying to adapt the P pump is that there are only two places in the world I know of that can even build a Superpump, and the shop in the US relies on parts and knowledge from dieselmeken, so really there is only one place. Getting a Superpump involves shipping, turn-around time, and hoping that nothing will ever go wrong with it once it arrives back. Diesel shops here do not know anything about the M pump, many do not even want to bother working on a stock one.
With the P7100 pump, even if you somehow destroy it, you can get another one the same day, and a completely stock pump is good for more fuel than the OM606 can ever use. Though I would want to get a high rpm kit and limit fuel, of course. I understand that in Europe wanting to adapt a P pump is silly, but over here it makes a lot of sense.
I do feel that this is kind of insulting to people such as dieselmeken and others who pioneered the Superpump and made Superturbodiesel tuning available to everyone, so I apologize, because I am not trying to drive away their business. However, if dieselmeken or someone developed a plug-and-play P pump adapter kit for the US market, I am sure there would be profit in it.
Looking more into it, I think the pump gear from an OM604 VE pump could be adapted to the P pump without too much custom work necessary.
![[Image: 746789084.jpg]](http://www.autoturek.pl/foto/foto/746789084.jpg)
![[Image: 941677546.jpg]](http://www.autoturek.pl/foto/foto/941677546.jpg)
Irony.cc
There is a huge aftermarket for the Bosch P7100 pump in the US because everyone here mods their diesel pickup truck. There are 5-6K rpm governor spring kits available (5000rpm kit in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQYl2NVttwk), and the pumps are readily found everywhere.
Just look at some of this aftermarket junk:
http://cppdiesel.com/p7100-pumps-components/#
It is not that an M pump with 7.5 or 8mm elements is not enough. If anything, I would want to limit the fuel for a safe 300-350hp, at least for the time being, even if I do end going with a Superpump.
My main reasoning behind trying to adapt the P pump is that there are only two places in the world I know of that can even build a Superpump, and the shop in the US relies on parts and knowledge from dieselmeken, so really there is only one place. Getting a Superpump involves shipping, turn-around time, and hoping that nothing will ever go wrong with it once it arrives back. Diesel shops here do not know anything about the M pump, many do not even want to bother working on a stock one.
With the P7100 pump, even if you somehow destroy it, you can get another one the same day, and a completely stock pump is good for more fuel than the OM606 can ever use. Though I would want to get a high rpm kit and limit fuel, of course. I understand that in Europe wanting to adapt a P pump is silly, but over here it makes a lot of sense.
I do feel that this is kind of insulting to people such as dieselmeken and others who pioneered the Superpump and made Superturbodiesel tuning available to everyone, so I apologize, because I am not trying to drive away their business. However, if dieselmeken or someone developed a plug-and-play P pump adapter kit for the US market, I am sure there would be profit in it.
Looking more into it, I think the pump gear from an OM604 VE pump could be adapted to the P pump without too much custom work necessary.
Irony.cc
at a glance i think it will be f&%$ easy to do it, things u have to consider are ,
1-fuel injection quantity in idle, for 350 pump rpm at least 8cc not more that 10cc
2-idle stenght , governor should be able to give at 325 15 to 20cc min and at 375, 5 cc and complete shut off by 400/410.
3- governor should have a means to increase rpm for cold start, and engine heating. at least 800rpm, max 1000rpm.(not mandatory)
4- steady aceleration expecially above 1000rpm from variable speed to full power.
5- output at 1000 pump rpm consistent with 2500, at least max output till 2750 .
6- max rpm limit (not mandatory)
and now the considerations ouside pump tuning,
1- injection advance, since the pump is a way bigger has a lot more drag, so at least the springs from the advance mechanism have to be changed for some wich offer a good advance timing,
2-injection time, has to do with the cam, may be to long has to be checked against a M cam,
and after all this , maybe the pump even with 12mm plunguers can´t put out 120cc, wich i woudn´t be surprised, and with that 12mm plunguer the idle quality may be compromised.
i never meant to seem to be a silly idea, the question is considering all the above, would it worth the assle?
yes it will , maybe it is plug and play, u will only know after u try it. pump to bench check if can do what i told u. if it does it really worth the assle to try.
regards
2-
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
hy , i understand your point, and agree with it , maybe it is cheapper adapting a P pump in a 60X engine than convert a M in a superpump.
at a glance i think it will be f&%$ easy to do it, things u have to consider are ,
1-fuel injection quantity in idle, for 350 pump rpm at least 8cc not more that 10cc
2-idle stenght , governor should be able to give at 325 15 to 20cc min and at 375, 5 cc and complete shut off by 400/410.
3- governor should have a means to increase rpm for cold start, and engine heating. at least 800rpm, max 1000rpm.(not mandatory)
4- steady aceleration expecially above 1000rpm from variable speed to full power.
5- output at 1000 pump rpm consistent with 2500, at least max output till 2750 .
6- max rpm limit (not mandatory)
and now the considerations ouside pump tuning,
1- injection advance, since the pump is a way bigger has a lot more drag, so at least the springs from the advance mechanism have to be changed for some wich offer a good advance timing,
2-injection time, has to do with the cam, may be to long has to be checked against a M cam,
and after all this , maybe the pump even with 12mm plunguers can´t put out 120cc, wich i woudn´t be surprised, and with that 12mm plunguer the idle quality may be compromised.
i never meant to seem to be a silly idea, the question is considering all the above, would it worth the assle?
yes it will , maybe it is plug and play, u will only know after u try it. pump to bench check if can do what i told u. if it does it really worth the assle to try.
regards
2-
FD,
Powered by tractor fuel
Barrote wrote -"
i have sugestion for u, u can fit a 6 cyl rotary stile distribuitor, in wich u can use many types, modify the engine for DI and u´ll have the noise, smoke and power like a cummins... lol .
the only cummins i know are water pumps , copies of perkins , f&%$ noisy and full of problems."
Would not the VE pump be more RPM limit abow 5000rpm and not that robust?
Barrote wrote -"
i have sugestion for u, u can fit a 6 cyl rotary stile distribuitor, in wich u can use many types, modify the engine for DI and u´ll have the noise, smoke and power like a cummins... lol .
the only cummins i know are water pumps , copies of perkins , f&%$ noisy and full of problems."
Any info? Is it the same as what's found on Cummins 4BT 3.9 L?
While trolling CL today I saw an IP from a GMC/Isuzu NPR for sale and it had me wondering the differences between this "AD" style pump & the "P" pump. It's from a 4.75 L 4 cylinder 4HE1 engine and has a gear drive IP rather than splined shaft.
Any info? Is it the same as what's found on Cummins 4BT 3.9 L?
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