ceramic coated pistons
ceramic coated pistons
I have a 240, so no turbo and was wondering if I do a rebuild sometime in the future to coat the pistons.
I have turned up the pump some. Maybe a turbo in the future, not sure how far I will push it. Part of me says stay conservative, but part of me wants full power like the finns, 245 looked mighty tempting....
Coated pistons, like ceramic coatings. Hot rodders use them to help protect the pistons from heat, But I have not seen any mention of it for diesels. Yes I know we have oil squirters on the turbo engines, but would coating still be a benefit? to give a little more protection?
I have a 240, so no turbo and was wondering if I do a rebuild sometime in the future to coat the pistons.
I have turned up the pump some. Maybe a turbo in the future, not sure how far I will push it. Part of me says stay conservative, but part of me wants full power like the finns, 245 looked mighty tempting....
Ed
yankneck696
01-23-2011, 09:39 PM #2With the coatings, staying conservative with the boost, you'll be fine. If you want crazy power, expect to spend crazy money, or have a brief joyride.
Ed
Personally, I'd rather spend the money on gapless rings and ARP studs.
ForcedInduction
01-24-2011, 08:51 AM
#3
Coating doesn't come up much since few of us even need to open the engine.
Personally, I'd rather spend the money on gapless rings and ARP studs.
Like you Ronnie,I've often been temted to try it out when rebuilding an engine....the only problem is I never get to take a cylinder head off my Mercedes diesels,because they just keep on going,going,going..............
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
Riverstick
01-24-2011, 01:56 PM #4Acclaimed heavy diesel engine remanufacturer/tuner Bruce Mallinson of www.pittsburghpower.com has been using ceramic top coated pistons and teflon coated piston skirts in Cummins,Caterpillar & Detroit Diesels for over twenty years with good results. He claims the teflon gives a lower coefficient of friction between the cylinder walls and pistons whilst the ceramic coating helps protect the top of the aluminium pistons from melting when the EGT's get up around the 1200's.
Like you Ronnie,I've often been temted to try it out when rebuilding an engine....the only problem is I never get to take a cylinder head off my Mercedes diesels,because they just keep on going,going,going..............
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
Gapless rings any idea how much they would help? like x% more compression?
It may well be a while before I need to open mine up. It has about 300,000 miles on it, but still going strong. Just thinking ahead to when it is time. Seems it would be worth doing. Have no idea of cost though. Maybe it would be to pricey, but still wondering if anyone has done it to a Mercedes, especially a 616 or 617.
Gapless rings any idea how much they would help? like x% more compression?
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
Riverstick
01-25-2011, 04:50 PM #7As a matter of interest.....who actually carries out this process and how much do they charge?
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
Swain Tech does coatings from $45 and up pr. piston think maximum price is $62.50 for their hardest coating. This was the first one i found on t'net
http://www.swaintech.com/store.asp?pid=10971
http://www.engineceramics.com/fullservice.htm
http://www.engineceramics.com/Price_List.pdf
I wouldn't mind getting an STD..
Spaceraver
01-26-2011, 08:48 AM #9Riverstick. Just had a google..
Swain Tech does coatings from $45 and up pr. piston think maximum price is $62.50 for their hardest coating. This was the first one i found on t'net
http://www.swaintech.com/store.asp?pid=10971
http://www.engineceramics.com/fullservice.htm
http://www.engineceramics.com/Price_List.pdf
I wouldn't mind getting an STD..
Ed
yankneck696
01-26-2011, 09:11 AM #10My 240D engine is still going strong after 4 years with a Ford Probe IHI turbo with 6-8 PSI max. Ran it for quite a while on thinned WVO. With the pump tweaks & hairdrier, there was a noticable butt dyno gain. It was a project when I worked in a salvage yard & put into a 6WD Samurai. If I still had it & had the money, I'd do the oil squirters & upgraded oil pump with ceramic coatings everywhere usable & experiment with bigger turbos, modded pumps & prechamber mods to see what is possible before grenading it. Alas, Jeffro uses it daily as the yard buggy & for a diehard american car junkie, he loved it. It can drag a full sized Chevy truck on it's roof very well.
Ed
(01-25-2011, 06:29 PM)ronnie More concerned with protecting the pistons then more power. teflon on the skirt seems like a good idea, I wonder how long this lasts.
It seems to last the full life of the engine as far as i can see.....not overly expensive either.....Ceramic coating the exhaust manifold and and turbine housing also seems to be another hot rodder's trick to make gases flow more freely and conserve the heat to drive the turbine wheel....although I guess the coating of the internal walls of the combustion chambers,as Conn clark suggested above,would be a good move as well.
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
Riverstick
01-26-2011, 08:23 PM #11(01-25-2011, 06:29 PM)ronnie More concerned with protecting the pistons then more power. teflon on the skirt seems like a good idea, I wonder how long this lasts.
It seems to last the full life of the engine as far as i can see.....not overly expensive either.....Ceramic coating the exhaust manifold and and turbine housing also seems to be another hot rodder's trick to make gases flow more freely and conserve the heat to drive the turbine wheel....although I guess the coating of the internal walls of the combustion chambers,as Conn clark suggested above,would be a good move as well.
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
Coating the pistons makes a bit of sense for DI since the combustion chamber is in the piston, but the prechamber is where we lose the most efficiency.
ForcedInduction
01-27-2011, 05:23 PM
#12
I'd be willing to coat the prechambers first, that looks like where we would see the best bang:buck.
Coating the pistons makes a bit of sense for DI since the combustion chamber is in the piston, but the prechamber is where we lose the most efficiency.
I had a beautiful KTM 500 once. Unlike other dirtbikes the bores on KTM never wore out that I could find with good maintenance of course. They had a coating on them called NIKASIL. It seems that coating the piston skirts on a fresh bore would help preserve the original bore clearances, reduce friction and enhance performance.
DieselSchlepper
02-01-2011, 09:09 AM #13Coating the piston top helps reflect heat off the piston back into the combustion airstream. So it keeps the heat where you want it - close to the flame front - out of the engine.
I had a beautiful KTM 500 once. Unlike other dirtbikes the bores on KTM never wore out that I could find with good maintenance of course. They had a coating on them called NIKASIL. It seems that coating the piston skirts on a fresh bore would help preserve the original bore clearances, reduce friction and enhance performance.
Mb 1984 w201 om603 swap.
Mb 1986 w201 190E 2.3-16v
Mb 2004 w203 C230k
George3soccer
02-02-2011, 09:06 AM #14I do agree with you dieselschlepper. You gotta love the nikasil or have to have it. Been racing ktm's for awhile now. Has a added benefit to it but only a select few shops were able to overhaul the ktm bores. But I'm not sure how this coating would work in a diesel application.
Mb 1984 w201 om603 swap.
Mb 1986 w201 190E 2.3-16v
Mb 2004 w203 C230k
DieselSchlepper
02-02-2011, 03:22 PM #15All I meant was that it's a type of coating with good results. I'm sure that there are different ones out there for varied applications.
(02-01-2011, 09:09 AM)DieselSchlepper Coating the piston top helps reflect heat off the piston back into the combustion airstream. So it keeps the heat where you want it - close to the flame front - out of the engine.
I had a beautiful KTM 500 once. Unlike other dirtbikes the bores on KTM never wore out that I could find with good maintenance of course. They had a coating on them called NIKASIL. It seems that coating the piston skirts on a fresh bore would help preserve the original bore clearances, reduce friction and enhance performance.
Ferrari I believe has used Nikasil as well.
"Molly" Jan. '84 black/tan 300d 180k miles, two owner car
Silberpfeil
02-03-2011, 12:02 PM #16(02-01-2011, 09:09 AM)DieselSchlepper Coating the piston top helps reflect heat off the piston back into the combustion airstream. So it keeps the heat where you want it - close to the flame front - out of the engine.
I had a beautiful KTM 500 once. Unlike other dirtbikes the bores on KTM never wore out that I could find with good maintenance of course. They had a coating on them called NIKASIL. It seems that coating the piston skirts on a fresh bore would help preserve the original bore clearances, reduce friction and enhance performance.
Ferrari I believe has used Nikasil as well.
"Molly" Jan. '84 black/tan 300d 180k miles, two owner car
i think there are clearance considerations that need to be made with your machinist, due to coating thickness options etc .
a local bike builder didn't want to work with it on a 801 bb kawi . This was the guy all the local shops used . so......
swan tech acn do pretty much anything , the heads valves to guides on the port side ports etc . can get pricey, but thermal efficency is the best it will get. Hyundai had teflon skirt/pistons in there little cars . nobody takes car of those things and they will troop on throwing spy hunter smoke screens .
i think there are clearance considerations that need to be made with your machinist, due to coating thickness options etc .
a local bike builder didn't want to work with it on a 801 bb kawi . This was the guy all the local shops used . so......
And the benefits are again ?
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
As my engine for the Phoenix Project is being rebuilt, I think I am going to contemplate getting the pistons back from the machine shop and getting them coated. It looks like $45 bucks a piston. The pre-chambers are $25.00 bucks a piece BUT, and BUT, you have to spend some money to take the head apart and put it back together. This option may end up costing around $500-$600 bucks. Pretty pricey mod.
And the benefits are again ?
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
I know in pulling tractors they coat the pistons with titanium to keep them from melting under severe temps. If my memory serves me right its titanium
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
(12-05-2012, 07:27 PM)MFSuper90 I know in pulling tractors they coat the pistons with titanium to keep them from melting under severe temps. If my memory serves me right its titanium
It is common for big diesel engine pistons to be composite, Steel top with a cast aluminum skirt. Titanium is not that good at high temps, but it is better than aluminum. Inconel would be better for the temps, but it is heavy.
(12-05-2012, 07:27 PM)MFSuper90 I know in pulling tractors they coat the pistons with titanium to keep them from melting under severe temps. If my memory serves me right its titanium
It is common for big diesel engine pistons to be composite, Steel top with a cast aluminum skirt. Titanium is not that good at high temps, but it is better than aluminum. Inconel would be better for the temps, but it is heavy.
-1982 300SD, found out she has an '85 Engine, unknown mileage, redoing the top end and chain, head has been ported and polished, non EGR manifolds / non ARV turbo
-1982 300D, too many issues to list.
-Alt Fuel Buff
-Founder www.SWFLBenzCLub.com
SpecialDelivery
12-05-2012, 08:35 PM #22what do you guys think of the ceramic bonding metal treatments out there? IXL is one metal treatment not ceramic, been around forever, no data, but I know a 34 year tech who SWEARS BY it...then there's Cerma, www.Cermastore.com is the maker (I know a dealer and he SWEARS by it...and thru whom I heard about the inventor sueing some guy who was buying his product cutting and rebottleing it, using all his research data...stuff claims to coat your motor with silicon carbide) and recently I found www.xado.co.uk/ that was advertised in Road and Track...i'm in the midst of built on my head and new timing chain, going to synthetic and thinking about these....spendy they can be...but are they worth it?
-1982 300SD, found out she has an '85 Engine, unknown mileage, redoing the top end and chain, head has been ported and polished, non EGR manifolds / non ARV turbo
-1982 300D, too many issues to list.
-Alt Fuel Buff
-Founder www.SWFLBenzCLub.com
I doubt a typical commercially available ceramic coating just on the piston would make a significant difference in efficiency, but it could make the pistons last longer in an engine that sees punishing conditions.
Minimally informative ceramic diesel info but with lots of pretty pictures.
http://www.sof.or.jp/en/activities/pdf/06_07.pdf
raysorenson
12-05-2012, 10:29 PM #23One could argue the ceramic coated piston tops could make the engine more thermodynamically efficient if you were to compare it to an adiabatic (uncooled, as in zero cooling system) diesel with a ceramic combustion chamber. I understand that the adiabatic engines were insulated with around 1/2" of ceramic, which is way, way thicker than any coating you'd get. The adiabatic engines were more efficient, but not more powerful since the combustion chamber was so hot that the incoming air charge was heated quickly enough to expand significantly and reduce oxygen content.
I doubt a typical commercially available ceramic coating just on the piston would make a significant difference in efficiency, but it could make the pistons last longer in an engine that sees punishing conditions.
Minimally informative ceramic diesel info but with lots of pretty pictures.
http://www.sof.or.jp/en/activities/pdf/06_07.pdf
(12-05-2012, 07:53 PM)OM616(12-05-2012, 07:27 PM)MFSuper90 I know in pulling tractors they coat the pistons with titanium to keep them from melting under severe temps. If my memory serves me right its titanium
It is common for big diesel engine pistons to be composite, Steel top with a cast aluminum skirt. Titanium is not that good at high temps, but it is better than aluminum. Inconel would be better for the temps, but it is heavy.
Well, i never did believe my memory was very good
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
(12-05-2012, 07:53 PM)OM616(12-05-2012, 07:27 PM)MFSuper90 I know in pulling tractors they coat the pistons with titanium to keep them from melting under severe temps. If my memory serves me right its titanium
It is common for big diesel engine pistons to be composite, Steel top with a cast aluminum skirt. Titanium is not that good at high temps, but it is better than aluminum. Inconel would be better for the temps, but it is heavy.
Well, i never did believe my memory was very good
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
I used this product: http://www.techlinecoatings.com/hi-perfo...tings.html
I coated the piston tops and exhaust manifold of my '69 BMW 2002 engine. I really noticed a difference in the under hood temperature as the long tube header used to give off a lot of heat and now it is more like the original cast iron manifold.
It supposedly slows heat transfer around 10%. I should think that doing the piston tops, cylinder head, and exhaust manifold would be very beneficial especially in a turbo engine as more heat will be retained in the exhaust to boost the turbo function.
If I ever feel the need to pull my engine apart I would definitely do this.
'85 300CD
Adding a ceramic is like adding insulation in the walls of your house. It just slows down the transfer of heat from combustion through the piston or through the cylinder head. It will indeed help the thermal efficiency of the engine, how that transfer directly to power or mileage is another question.
I used this product: http://www.techlinecoatings.com/hi-perfo...tings.html
I coated the piston tops and exhaust manifold of my '69 BMW 2002 engine. I really noticed a difference in the under hood temperature as the long tube header used to give off a lot of heat and now it is more like the original cast iron manifold.
It supposedly slows heat transfer around 10%. I should think that doing the piston tops, cylinder head, and exhaust manifold would be very beneficial especially in a turbo engine as more heat will be retained in the exhaust to boost the turbo function.
If I ever feel the need to pull my engine apart I would definitely do this.
'85 300CD
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