Delivery Valve Testing
Delivery Valve Testing
03-20-2011, 09:08 PM
#1
After this, I put the stock DVs, springs and holders all back. They were all in their own bags as to not mix up between cylinders. Now it is slow to return to idle. Quick revs (under 1500rpm) in neutral in the driveway, it returns quickly. When driving at 40mph and I push in the clutch, it stays right around 2000rpm and slowly, if at all, comes down. It hasn't gone up in speed yet on its own after putting the stock DVs back in.
My question is, why? Why is it slow to return all of a sudden? The return spring that attaches to the bottom of the pump hasn't been on in over 2 years but the return spring closest to the pedal is fully capable of bringing the linkage back to idle.
It is totally possible that the DV holder could be upside down. Would this cause this condition?
![[Image: 2011-03-20_21-31-59_198.jpg]](http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa246/drewgerhan/2011-03-20_21-31-59_198.jpg)
^^^That is how they were installed with the cut DVs and putting the stock ones back in which now has the idle return issue.
![[Image: 2011-03-20_21-31-42_546.jpg]](http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa246/drewgerhan/2011-03-20_21-31-42_546.jpg)
^^^They are NOT installed this way currently.
Which is correct/does it make a difference?
1981 300SD 230k miles "Gently Modified" Daily Driver
1999 F-250 7.3L Power Stroke 150k miles "The Usual Mods" Tow Rig
1981 300SD 190k miles "Heavily Modified"
GONE
DrewGerhan
03-20-2011, 09:08 PM #1Last night my buddy and I turned down a spare set of DVs that I had. We put the valve in a air drill that was in a vise and used a file to take away the collar. No nicks on the seat even. So we go to put them in. Once she fires after getting the air out the rpms just start climbing without touching the throttle at all and a huge plume of really dark grey smoke. Not so much black as dark grey. It didn't rev too high (less than 3500) before I shut it down.
After this, I put the stock DVs, springs and holders all back. They were all in their own bags as to not mix up between cylinders. Now it is slow to return to idle. Quick revs (under 1500rpm) in neutral in the driveway, it returns quickly. When driving at 40mph and I push in the clutch, it stays right around 2000rpm and slowly, if at all, comes down. It hasn't gone up in speed yet on its own after putting the stock DVs back in.
My question is, why? Why is it slow to return all of a sudden? The return spring that attaches to the bottom of the pump hasn't been on in over 2 years but the return spring closest to the pedal is fully capable of bringing the linkage back to idle.
It is totally possible that the DV holder could be upside down. Would this cause this condition?
^^^That is how they were installed with the cut DVs and putting the stock ones back in which now has the idle return issue.
^^^They are NOT installed this way currently.
Which is correct/does it make a difference?
1981 300SD 230k miles "Gently Modified" Daily Driver
1999 F-250 7.3L Power Stroke 150k miles "The Usual Mods" Tow Rig
1981 300SD 190k miles "Heavily Modified"
GONE
03-20-2011, 09:32 PM
#2
(03-20-2011, 09:08 PM)DrewGerhan We put the valve in a air drill that was in a vise and used a file to take away the collar. No nicks on the seat even. So we go to put them in. Once she fires after getting the air out the rpms just start climbing without touching the throttle at all and a huge plume of really dark grey smoke. Not so much black as dark grey. It didn't rev too high (less than 3500) before I shut it down.I could have told you it works like crap 3 years ago when I did the same thing...
Quote:After this, I put the stock DVs, springs and holders all back. They were all in their own bags as to not mix up between cylinders. Now it is slow to return to idle.
This post was last modified: 03-20-2011, 09:38 PM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
03-20-2011, 09:32 PM
#2
(03-20-2011, 09:08 PM)DrewGerhan We put the valve in a air drill that was in a vise and used a file to take away the collar. No nicks on the seat even. So we go to put them in. Once she fires after getting the air out the rpms just start climbing without touching the throttle at all and a huge plume of really dark grey smoke. Not so much black as dark grey. It didn't rev too high (less than 3500) before I shut it down.I could have told you it works like crap 3 years ago when I did the same thing...
Quote:After this, I put the stock DVs, springs and holders all back. They were all in their own bags as to not mix up between cylinders. Now it is slow to return to idle.
03-20-2011, 09:36 PM
#3
So mine are installed correctly. How can it be slow to return to idle then?
1981 300SD 230k miles "Gently Modified" Daily Driver
1999 F-250 7.3L Power Stroke 150k miles "The Usual Mods" Tow Rig
1981 300SD 190k miles "Heavily Modified"
GONE
DrewGerhan
03-20-2011, 09:36 PM #3Yeah I remember your thread Forced. I just wanted to see what would happen for me. Young and dumb I guess.
So mine are installed correctly. How can it be slow to return to idle then?
1981 300SD 230k miles "Gently Modified" Daily Driver
1999 F-250 7.3L Power Stroke 150k miles "The Usual Mods" Tow Rig
1981 300SD 190k miles "Heavily Modified"
GONE
03-20-2011, 09:39 PM
#4
ForcedInduction
03-20-2011, 09:39 PM
#4
What is the idle rpm? If its set above 800rpm the governor won't cut fuel on deceleration.
03-20-2011, 09:44 PM
#5
I did not touch the idle speed or timing at all when messing with the cut DVs.
1981 300SD 230k miles "Gently Modified" Daily Driver
1999 F-250 7.3L Power Stroke 150k miles "The Usual Mods" Tow Rig
1981 300SD 190k miles "Heavily Modified"
GONE
DrewGerhan
03-20-2011, 09:44 PM #5I think it is above 800rpm. If turn it down to 750(stock?) it should act normally?
I did not touch the idle speed or timing at all when messing with the cut DVs.
1981 300SD 230k miles "Gently Modified" Daily Driver
1999 F-250 7.3L Power Stroke 150k miles "The Usual Mods" Tow Rig
1981 300SD 190k miles "Heavily Modified"
GONE
03-21-2011, 01:37 AM
#6
If you have a good dieseltech I am sure he can help you, but he need to customize the governor for this kind of application.
dieselmeken
03-21-2011, 01:37 AM #6When you do this kind of modification on the delivery valve, the pump deliver a lot more fuel on low idle, The racktravel with original valve is app 6 mm at low idle, then you have around 9-12mm3@1000 stroke of fuel, After mod you have to adjust the rack travel to 4-4,5 mm at low idle, otherwise the pump overfuels with the common idle problems that you have.
If you have a good dieseltech I am sure he can help you, but he need to customize the governor for this kind of application.
03-21-2011, 06:48 AM
#7
1981 300SD 230k miles "Gently Modified" Daily Driver
1999 F-250 7.3L Power Stroke 150k miles "The Usual Mods" Tow Rig
1981 300SD 190k miles "Heavily Modified"
GONE
DrewGerhan
03-21-2011, 06:48 AM #7Do you mean you have to adjust the rack when the cut DVs are in? Right now the stock ones are back in and its doing the idle thing. Would it be because I removed the rack limiter?
1981 300SD 230k miles "Gently Modified" Daily Driver
1999 F-250 7.3L Power Stroke 150k miles "The Usual Mods" Tow Rig
1981 300SD 190k miles "Heavily Modified"
GONE
03-21-2011, 02:36 PM
#8
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
03-21-2011, 02:36 PM #8My Turbo 617 idles right @ 1000RPM and has NO idle return issues.
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
03-21-2011, 11:11 PM
#9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4zVv2eZ0ig
1981 300SD 230k miles "Gently Modified" Daily Driver
1999 F-250 7.3L Power Stroke 150k miles "The Usual Mods" Tow Rig
1981 300SD 190k miles "Heavily Modified"
GONE
DrewGerhan
03-21-2011, 11:11 PM #9Made a quick video just to show what is happening.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4zVv2eZ0ig
1981 300SD 230k miles "Gently Modified" Daily Driver
1999 F-250 7.3L Power Stroke 150k miles "The Usual Mods" Tow Rig
1981 300SD 190k miles "Heavily Modified"
GONE
ForcedInduction
03-21-2011, 11:35 PM
#10
My 300D has the same result after I adjusted the torque control.
03-22-2011, 12:02 AM
#11
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
03-22-2011, 12:02 AM #11So did mine, but nearly as bad.
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
03-22-2011, 01:28 AM
#12
(03-21-2011, 01:37 AM)dieselmeken When you do this kind of modification on the delivery valve, the pump deliver a lot more fuel on low idle, The racktravel with original valve is app 6 mm at low idle, then you have around 9-12mm3@1000 stroke of fuel, After mod you have to adjust the rack travel to 4-4,5 mm at low idle, otherwise the pump overfuels with the common idle problems that you have.
If you have a good dieseltech I am sure he can help you, but he need to customize the governor for this kind of application.
Hi,
sorry, but as a dieseltech you should know what a delivery valve has to do:
Reducing the residual pressure in the hard line after injection to avoid a second nozzle opening from the running shock wave.
One thing to alter the shape of the delivery curve is to grind a little flat on the collar but still the DV works as it is designed for.
Removing the collar completely is below garage tuning standard.
A DV is much more than a simple check valve.
At least my goal is not to create a smoking monster where the fuel is simply dumped into the cylinders.
Tom
(03-21-2011, 01:37 AM)dieselmeken When you do this kind of modification on the delivery valve, the pump deliver a lot more fuel on low idle, The racktravel with original valve is app 6 mm at low idle, then you have around 9-12mm3@1000 stroke of fuel, After mod you have to adjust the rack travel to 4-4,5 mm at low idle, otherwise the pump overfuels with the common idle problems that you have.
If you have a good dieseltech I am sure he can help you, but he need to customize the governor for this kind of application.
Hi,
sorry, but as a dieseltech you should know what a delivery valve has to do:
Reducing the residual pressure in the hard line after injection to avoid a second nozzle opening from the running shock wave.
One thing to alter the shape of the delivery curve is to grind a little flat on the collar but still the DV works as it is designed for.
Removing the collar completely is below garage tuning standard.
A DV is much more than a simple check valve.
At least my goal is not to create a smoking monster where the fuel is simply dumped into the cylinders.
Tom
03-22-2011, 08:58 PM
#13
Oh well. I said fuck it and put my last untouched spare pump on. The only one left is my M-pump which I don't plan on messing with.
1981 300SD 230k miles "Gently Modified" Daily Driver
1999 F-250 7.3L Power Stroke 150k miles "The Usual Mods" Tow Rig
1981 300SD 190k miles "Heavily Modified"
GONE
DrewGerhan
03-22-2011, 08:58 PM #13I tried some more to get it to behave but it wouldn't. Its weird. The first maybe 1/4 mile of driving, no matter what speed or rpm, it returns to idle fine. Once its past that first 1/4 mile though it all goes to shit.
Oh well. I said fuck it and put my last untouched spare pump on. The only one left is my M-pump which I don't plan on messing with.
1981 300SD 230k miles "Gently Modified" Daily Driver
1999 F-250 7.3L Power Stroke 150k miles "The Usual Mods" Tow Rig
1981 300SD 190k miles "Heavily Modified"
GONE
03-23-2011, 02:12 AM
#14
(03-22-2011, 01:28 AM)tomnik(03-21-2011, 01:37 AM)dieselmeken When you do this kind of modification on the delivery valve, the pump deliver a lot more fuel on low idle, The racktravel with original valve is app 6 mm at low idle, then you have around 9-12mm3@1000 stroke of fuel, After mod you have to adjust the rack travel to 4-4,5 mm at low idle, otherwise the pump overfuels with the common idle problems that you have.
If you have a good dieseltech I am sure he can help you, but he need to customize the governor for this kind of application.
Hi,
sorry, but as a dieseltech you should know what a delivery valve has to do:
Reducing the residual pressure in the hard line after injection to avoid a second nozzle opening from the running shock wave.
One thing to alter the shape of the delivery curve is to grind a little flat on the collar but still the DV works as it is designed for.
Removing the collar completely is below garage tuning standard.
A DV is much more than a simple check valve.
At least my goal is not to create a smoking monster where the fuel is simply dumped into the cylinders.
Tom
Hi Tom and all others reading this post.
I hope you don call me a garage tuner, I got the impression of your answer that it was so, hopfully I am wrong, that is not the reason why i wrote down an answer in this topic.
I know what a delivery valve do, and I also do know whats happening if it dont work properly, and if you look at the answer that I wrote, I was telling whats happening in the pump when you do this kind of modification and what you must do to get it working.
It do work, but it smokes, clatter, engine is going hot etc etc but it puts out a lot of fuel and some people that build with too big turbos need the fuel. Totally useless to drive on road but it works.
Please call them garage tuner, not me.
I dont care if people do they own modification on there own pumps, I only tell them whats happening, Something wrong in that?
When a customer of mine wants to have 21 mm racktravel and full fuel, he gets it, NOTE, ONLY for race.
I can tell that a lot of original pumps from Bosch, mainly for Volvo Penta, Distributor and inline pumps has delivery valves without collar.
Some of them only has a orifice, but if you have these kind of pumps you need a special high pressure pipe, a Bundy pipe.
What is the difference? A Bundy pipe looks inside like a airshotgun with the rifels, not as a common pipe.
VP37 serie for Mercedes 602.980 has an "open system", no delivery valves but they have 2 spring injectors instead.
When I build pumps for bigger engine, Pulling etc removing the collar is a must, We are talking about fuelquantity around 900-1000cc from 13 mm element, grinding the camshaft for bigger lift etc etc, Then I create a smoking monster, but that is what the customer wants at that is what the customer gets. Garagetuning? No, thats knowhow, and I have it.
Best regards /Göran
dieselmeken
03-23-2011, 02:12 AM #14(03-22-2011, 01:28 AM)tomnik(03-21-2011, 01:37 AM)dieselmeken When you do this kind of modification on the delivery valve, the pump deliver a lot more fuel on low idle, The racktravel with original valve is app 6 mm at low idle, then you have around 9-12mm3@1000 stroke of fuel, After mod you have to adjust the rack travel to 4-4,5 mm at low idle, otherwise the pump overfuels with the common idle problems that you have.
If you have a good dieseltech I am sure he can help you, but he need to customize the governor for this kind of application.
Hi,
sorry, but as a dieseltech you should know what a delivery valve has to do:
Reducing the residual pressure in the hard line after injection to avoid a second nozzle opening from the running shock wave.
One thing to alter the shape of the delivery curve is to grind a little flat on the collar but still the DV works as it is designed for.
Removing the collar completely is below garage tuning standard.
A DV is much more than a simple check valve.
At least my goal is not to create a smoking monster where the fuel is simply dumped into the cylinders.
Tom
Hi Tom and all others reading this post.
I hope you don call me a garage tuner, I got the impression of your answer that it was so, hopfully I am wrong, that is not the reason why i wrote down an answer in this topic.
I know what a delivery valve do, and I also do know whats happening if it dont work properly, and if you look at the answer that I wrote, I was telling whats happening in the pump when you do this kind of modification and what you must do to get it working.
It do work, but it smokes, clatter, engine is going hot etc etc but it puts out a lot of fuel and some people that build with too big turbos need the fuel. Totally useless to drive on road but it works.
Please call them garage tuner, not me.
I dont care if people do they own modification on there own pumps, I only tell them whats happening, Something wrong in that?
When a customer of mine wants to have 21 mm racktravel and full fuel, he gets it, NOTE, ONLY for race.
I can tell that a lot of original pumps from Bosch, mainly for Volvo Penta, Distributor and inline pumps has delivery valves without collar.
Some of them only has a orifice, but if you have these kind of pumps you need a special high pressure pipe, a Bundy pipe.
What is the difference? A Bundy pipe looks inside like a airshotgun with the rifels, not as a common pipe.
VP37 serie for Mercedes 602.980 has an "open system", no delivery valves but they have 2 spring injectors instead.
When I build pumps for bigger engine, Pulling etc removing the collar is a must, We are talking about fuelquantity around 900-1000cc from 13 mm element, grinding the camshaft for bigger lift etc etc, Then I create a smoking monster, but that is what the customer wants at that is what the customer gets. Garagetuning? No, thats knowhow, and I have it.
Best regards /Göran
03-23-2011, 03:43 AM
#15
this was not against you and I don't call you a garage tuner!
Nearly everybody here is driving his car on the streets.
For them (me included) the delivery valve "tuning" as described should not be an option same with increasing rack travel over max. with stock/small elements.
The results are smoke, heat and stress for the engine.
For that reason I calculated and designed my elements. For tractor pulling some just big and only at a certain rpm range running cheap elements are sufficient.
We are in the position here in this forum that we have the knowledge how to get our engines faster without the image of old diesel smokers and bad economy.
At least here in Europe/Germany where all the todays diesels have a particular filter diesel smoke is something bad and we risk to get banned completely.
Besides that some basic interest in environment should be always there and again the forum has the knowledge to do it better.
Tractor pulling or specific racers is different story but here we should have the goal to get our engines perfectly running (minimum as good as stock when new).
Just my personal comment.
Tom
Hi Göran,
this was not against you and I don't call you a garage tuner!
Nearly everybody here is driving his car on the streets.
For them (me included) the delivery valve "tuning" as described should not be an option same with increasing rack travel over max. with stock/small elements.
The results are smoke, heat and stress for the engine.
For that reason I calculated and designed my elements. For tractor pulling some just big and only at a certain rpm range running cheap elements are sufficient.
We are in the position here in this forum that we have the knowledge how to get our engines faster without the image of old diesel smokers and bad economy.
At least here in Europe/Germany where all the todays diesels have a particular filter diesel smoke is something bad and we risk to get banned completely.
Besides that some basic interest in environment should be always there and again the forum has the knowledge to do it better.
Tractor pulling or specific racers is different story but here we should have the goal to get our engines perfectly running (minimum as good as stock when new).
Just my personal comment.
Tom
03-23-2011, 12:37 PM
#16
(03-21-2011, 01:37 AM)dieselmeken When you do this kind of modification on the delivery valve, the pump deliver a lot more fuel on low idle, The racktravel with original valve is app 6 mm at low idle, then you have around 9-12mm3@1000 stroke of fuel, After mod you have to adjust the rack travel to 4-4,5 mm at low idle, otherwise the pump overfuels with the common idle problems that you have.
If you have a good dieseltech I am sure he can help you, but he need to customize the governor for this kind of application.
This is good information to know. maybe its not such a lost cause. Do you have any customers or know anyone running this successfully with more power and good idle/EGT?
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(03-21-2011, 01:37 AM)dieselmeken When you do this kind of modification on the delivery valve, the pump deliver a lot more fuel on low idle, The racktravel with original valve is app 6 mm at low idle, then you have around 9-12mm3@1000 stroke of fuel, After mod you have to adjust the rack travel to 4-4,5 mm at low idle, otherwise the pump overfuels with the common idle problems that you have.
If you have a good dieseltech I am sure he can help you, but he need to customize the governor for this kind of application.
This is good information to know. maybe its not such a lost cause. Do you have any customers or know anyone running this successfully with more power and good idle/EGT?
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
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