Hp vs. MPG... the true battle.
Hp vs. MPG... the true battle.
what im scared to do
it sounds like all the power is found in the IP pump... but will me playing with it make the car a fuel pig? should i just hv it rebuild? will my ALDA kill MPG? i looks like injectors with up my MPG... whats the most efficent route i should take?
BTW i am not building a race car,this is a street car. just like WRC rally cars they are legal to drive on the street!
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cannonballSDL
11-02-2008, 01:18 PM #1this is not my first benz diesel, ive had a few 300d's, but this is my first time trying to tune and make some reliably power. from what the dodge guys say, i can make power well holding my MPG. with a low ratio rear end and a 6 speed tranny(flip flop) im hoping to squeeze at lest 27 MPG. i have 2 chooses for turbos, a HX35 and a random turbo from a ford box truck(larger then the HX), depending what turbo i can make a 3-5" exhaust and a boom tube side pipe(not for looks). i have a A/W IC 10" by 9" core waiting to be installed, with all hard piQpes.
what im scared to do
it sounds like all the power is found in the IP pump... but will me playing with it make the car a fuel pig? should i just hv it rebuild? will my ALDA kill MPG? i looks like injectors with up my MPG... whats the most efficent route i should take?
BTW i am not building a race car,this is a street car. just like WRC rally cars they are legal to drive on the street!
If you mod it to have 300hp and drive like a maniac you will get 18mpg, but if you drive like normal you will get normal mpg.
ForcedInduction
11-02-2008, 01:55 PM
#2
All you are doing is altering how much fuel the injection pump can pump, your foot still controls how much fuel it will pump.
If you mod it to have 300hp and drive like a maniac you will get 18mpg, but if you drive like normal you will get normal mpg.
ForcedInduction drive like a maniac.
ok ok. my plan is to us a large turbo and hope for lag and try to stay away from boost until its need... with my other projects they tend to hold steady 13-18 mpg. mabe im not a great tuner but it kinda happens.
will the IP mods for the 617 apply to the 603? (i may have the motor numbers mixed i have a 6 ot a 5)
out side of IP/ injectors mod, intercooler ,upgraded turbo, intake and exhaust. i dont think i will need to much more. i think i need to look more into the tranny and diff... but thats for another thread
cannonballSDL
11-03-2008, 07:43 PM #3ForcedInduction drive like a maniac.
ok ok. my plan is to us a large turbo and hope for lag and try to stay away from boost until its need... with my other projects they tend to hold steady 13-18 mpg. mabe im not a great tuner but it kinda happens.
will the IP mods for the 617 apply to the 603? (i may have the motor numbers mixed i have a 6 ot a 5)
out side of IP/ injectors mod, intercooler ,upgraded turbo, intake and exhaust. i dont think i will need to much more. i think i need to look more into the tranny and diff... but thats for another thread
The euro model 617's with the M-pump are similar to yours minus 1 cylinder and boost compensation.
See the differences here: <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://superturbodiesel.com/std/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=167">viewtopic.php?f=9&t=167</a><!-- l -->
Boost is a good thing for diesels and it actually increases efficiency (Up to a point of course).
ForcedInduction
11-03-2008, 08:48 PM
#4
The 617 and 603 use completely different injection pump models, little crosses over.
The euro model 617's with the M-pump are similar to yours minus 1 cylinder and boost compensation.
See the differences here: <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://superturbodiesel.com/std/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=167">viewtopic.php?f=9&t=167</a><!-- l -->
Boost is a good thing for diesels and it actually increases efficiency (Up to a point of course).
Forced Induction Boost is a good thing for diesels and it actually increases efficiency (Up to a point of course).o rly? so what would be a efficient set up? something that would give me some power( 225-250) well giving up to 27-30 mpg? ive been talking to a guy at extrude hone, he thinks he can get 9% increase in power(ad 2% mpg) with his special sauce in my injectors... and there cheap!
cannonballSDL
11-03-2008, 08:59 PM #5Forced Induction Boost is a good thing for diesels and it actually increases efficiency (Up to a point of course).o rly? so what would be a efficient set up? something that would give me some power( 225-250) well giving up to 27-30 mpg? ive been talking to a guy at extrude hone, he thinks he can get 9% increase in power(ad 2% mpg) with his special sauce in my injectors... and there cheap!
Check out this page: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml?FeetASL=5280&Tamb=30&Bore=87&Stroke=84&nCyl=6&RPM=4500&VE=100&Boost=14&Ec=75&Eic=0&PdropIC=0.25&TambIC=30&wiPercentMethanol=0&wiRate=0&wiTemp=0&SFC=0&AFR=0&maxInjectorDutyCycle=0">http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/ ... utyCycle=0</a><!-- m -->
Its already setup for the OM603.96 but you can the change temperature, altitude, boost, intercooler, RPM, etc settings to find out what your airflow requirements are and what turbos will meet your needs.
I'm looking forward to the extrude hone results. If it works out they will definitely be seeing more buisness.
ForcedInduction
11-03-2008, 09:15 PM
#6
Yes, you don't need a Gigantor turbo to make only 250hp. A Holset HX30 (From a 3.9L Cummins), HY35 (from some 5.9L Cummins powered Dodges), T3/T4 hybrid (Only use a genuine Garrett, avoid that off-brand Chinese crap) would give you plenty of air without killing spool-up speed or restricting the exhaust. A T04E-40 would work but very slow to spool up.
Check out this page: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml?FeetASL=5280&Tamb=30&Bore=87&Stroke=84&nCyl=6&RPM=4500&VE=100&Boost=14&Ec=75&Eic=0&PdropIC=0.25&TambIC=30&wiPercentMethanol=0&wiRate=0&wiTemp=0&SFC=0&AFR=0&maxInjectorDutyCycle=0">http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/ ... utyCycle=0</a><!-- m -->
Its already setup for the OM603.96 but you can the change temperature, altitude, boost, intercooler, RPM, etc settings to find out what your airflow requirements are and what turbos will meet your needs.
I'm looking forward to the extrude hone results. If it works out they will definitely be seeing more buisness.
GREASY_BEAST
11-03-2008, 10:54 PM #79% more power sounds like its not worth the $$, IMO. Thats what, 10hp? I'd save the money and invest in propane, or serious EDM enlargement of the injectors... like 35% more radius = 182% more area = something like 2x the fuel serious... if the IP can keep up, which based on DV experiments, it can.
GREASY_BEAST 9% more power sounds like its not worth the $$, IMO. Thats what, 10hp? I'd save the money and invest in propane, or serious EDM enlargement of the injectors... like 35% more radius = 182% more area = something like 2x the fuel serious... if the IP can keep up, which based on DV experiments, it can.
well i kno that a dv and propane injection is. thats about all i got out of that post :oops: propane isent a option. to dangerous to store a supple for 3000+ miles in the car imho. im working on the injectors!
cannonballSDL
11-10-2008, 10:00 PM #8GREASY_BEAST 9% more power sounds like its not worth the $$, IMO. Thats what, 10hp? I'd save the money and invest in propane, or serious EDM enlargement of the injectors... like 35% more radius = 182% more area = something like 2x the fuel serious... if the IP can keep up, which based on DV experiments, it can.
well i kno that a dv and propane injection is. thats about all i got out of that post :oops: propane isent a option. to dangerous to store a supple for 3000+ miles in the car imho. im working on the injectors!
GREASY_BEAST
11-11-2008, 01:21 AM #9EDM = Electron Discharge Machining or something like that. In any case, it is a means by which small precise machining operations can be done on hard metallic parts like injector nozzles. If you increase the diameter of a circle, its surface area increases by pie times the radius squared. Which means that by increasing the radius of the injector hole by a small amount (which is a circle, as far as the fuel flowing through it is concerned), you increase the area by a large amount. In other words, a 9% increase in fuel means a virtually insignificant amount of work done to the nozzle, and not worth spending money on. For about $40 an injector you can get twice the fuel flow with EDM, and have it be relatively tame on the street. Obviously these claims have not yet been tested (to anyone's knowledge around here at least) on the OM617. I will demonstrate the results of this sometime in January.
also how will we kno what to get? a injector thats to big will be dumping fuel...
Quote:(aaz injector)the MPG went from 26-27 average to (stock )29.79 on my last tank,
cannonballSDL
11-11-2008, 06:12 PM #10cool i just got off the phone with Twin city, they sounded very helpful but dident give me any real info! i am sending them a sample injector. how much should i have them take off?
also how will we kno what to get? a injector thats to big will be dumping fuel...
Quote:(aaz injector)the MPG went from 26-27 average to (stock )29.79 on my last tank,
GREASY_BEAST
11-12-2008, 10:21 PM #11Its up to you, and them, how much they should take off.. injector mods on this engine are sort of breaking new ground as far as I know... to be done at one's own risk. The theory is that a bigger hole yields more fuel in a manner somewhat proportional to the increase in area, if the fuel is there to begin with (i.e. if the IP can push the fuel). We suspect, based on delivery valve tweaks, that the fuel *can* be there, but what is required to get it there is yet unknown.
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