Additional fueling via methanol injection
Additional fueling via methanol injection
06-23-2015, 04:36 PM
#1
For ease of tuning I am planning to keep the stock EDC fuel pump but uprate the elements, I do have an OM603 mechanical pump, however it will take a fair bit of work to convert the engine over to fully mechanical as I would need to have the additional linkage setup as well as a standalone gearbox controller.
I am therefore starting to look into the use of methanol/water injection to increase the amount of fuel being injected into the engine, eg have an EDC pump with 8mm elements as well as additional methanol.
Just wondering if anyone on here has used methanol injection at all as it would increase the power output as well as additional boost safety? If so, what size nozzles and setup did you go with?
Hi all,
For ease of tuning I am planning to keep the stock EDC fuel pump but uprate the elements, I do have an OM603 mechanical pump, however it will take a fair bit of work to convert the engine over to fully mechanical as I would need to have the additional linkage setup as well as a standalone gearbox controller.
I am therefore starting to look into the use of methanol/water injection to increase the amount of fuel being injected into the engine, eg have an EDC pump with 8mm elements as well as additional methanol.
Just wondering if anyone on here has used methanol injection at all as it would increase the power output as well as additional boost safety? If so, what size nozzles and setup did you go with?
06-23-2015, 05:10 PM
#2
Baldur Gislason
I have a Snow Performance kit injecting 375ml/min of 50:50 water/methanol mix when at wide open throttle on my OM662 engined SSangYong Musso. I estimate this adds close to 30 horsepower, it's very noticable. I've had the system fitted for 1 year now.
Baldur Gislason
06-23-2015, 06:48 PM
#3
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD - 160k
'06.5 VW Jetta TDI - 230k
'82 MB 300TD - 116k (motor going to raysorenson)
'81 MB 300TD - 195k (parting out)
'71 Jeep DJ5 - diesel conversion project
Propane injection is another method of increasing fuel. I don't have experience with it though but hopefully another member will chime in...
'05 Jeep Liberty CRD - 160k
'06.5 VW Jetta TDI - 230k
'82 MB 300TD - 116k (motor going to raysorenson)
'81 MB 300TD - 195k (parting out)
'71 Jeep DJ5 - diesel conversion project
06-24-2015, 01:56 AM
#4
(06-23-2015, 05:10 PM)baldur I have a Snow Performance kit injecting 375ml/min of 50:50 water/methanol mix when at wide open throttle on my OM662 engined SSangYong Musso. I estimate this adds close to 30 horsepower, it's very noticable. I've had the system fitted for 1 year now.
Thanks for that - are you running just 1 nozzle or are you running multiple - also where did you install the nozzle? I am thinking about perhaps running one tapped into the inlet manifold just before it splits off into 6 for my OM606.
(06-23-2015, 06:48 PM)CRD4x4 Propane injection is another method of increasing fuel. I don't have experience with it though but hopefully another member will chime in...
I did have a look at this, owing to the large area where the spare wheel would usually go in the boot of the estate I could put a tank in there and then run lines under the car into the engine bay - its something I will look into, although initially I will want to run slightly safer water/meth injection.
(06-23-2015, 05:10 PM)baldur I have a Snow Performance kit injecting 375ml/min of 50:50 water/methanol mix when at wide open throttle on my OM662 engined SSangYong Musso. I estimate this adds close to 30 horsepower, it's very noticable. I've had the system fitted for 1 year now.
Thanks for that - are you running just 1 nozzle or are you running multiple - also where did you install the nozzle? I am thinking about perhaps running one tapped into the inlet manifold just before it splits off into 6 for my OM606.
(06-23-2015, 06:48 PM)CRD4x4 Propane injection is another method of increasing fuel. I don't have experience with it though but hopefully another member will chime in...
I did have a look at this, owing to the large area where the spare wheel would usually go in the boot of the estate I could put a tank in there and then run lines under the car into the engine bay - its something I will look into, although initially I will want to run slightly safer water/meth injection.
06-24-2015, 06:10 AM
#5
it will be able to put out at least (MIN)120cc, and that is ok for 60 to 70 HP cyl , do u want even more than that? well if u do the pump can put out 150cc easyly , something your engine wont burn without major modification. i mean deep modification.
but u know what u´re after , right.
FD,
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with a 8mm EDC pump correctly set up , u dont need nothing of this fancy things....
it will be able to put out at least (MIN)120cc, and that is ok for 60 to 70 HP cyl , do u want even more than that? well if u do the pump can put out 150cc easyly , something your engine wont burn without major modification. i mean deep modification.
but u know what u´re after , right.
FD,
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06-24-2015, 11:09 AM
#6
This post was last modified: 06-24-2015, 11:10 AM by m1tch.
I will go down the EDC route with larger 8mm elements to start with and see where it goes - just need to choose the right route else it will be very expensive and won't give me the results I will be aiming for. Basically getting the pump rebuilt won't be cheap, if I get the EDC pump upgraded and then find it isn't suited to my needs then I would have to pay for another pump rebuild on an OM603 mechanical pump.
06-24-2015, 11:52 AM
#7
The extra effort of 602 or 603 pumps not worth it to me.
I understand the 8mm EDC pump can produce plenty enough fuel, However I'd like to see if I can reduce Smoke by a little less fuel and a little water/meth/Nitrous.
I can get big HP with lots of black smoke, I want to limit this as much as possible.
Not to mention water/meth kits can be had for less than the price of a tank of fuel.
I'm going down the EDC Route, To be honest a few people have had good results with these now.
The extra effort of 602 or 603 pumps not worth it to me.
I understand the 8mm EDC pump can produce plenty enough fuel, However I'd like to see if I can reduce Smoke by a little less fuel and a little water/meth/Nitrous.
I can get big HP with lots of black smoke, I want to limit this as much as possible.
Not to mention water/meth kits can be had for less than the price of a tank of fuel.
06-24-2015, 01:32 PM
#8
(06-24-2015, 11:09 AM)m1tch I will go down the EDC route with larger 8mm elements to start with and see where it goes - just need to choose the right route else it will be very expensive and won't give me the results I will be aiming for. Basically getting the pump rebuilt won't be cheap, if I get the EDC pump upgraded and then find it isn't suited to my needs then I would have to pay for another pump rebuild on an OM603 mechanical pump.
i´ll do that for u! u provide the pump and the elements , and if does not work i´ll swap them in the mechanichal for free. except shipping.
but be aware that a remap of ecu is needed and the max RPM u can get is 5500rpm, and even with the remap i belive at least 100cc of fuel will come out the edc. at 3.75v
that is something u need to discuss with dieselmeken.... assuming u´re thinking on his elements
FD,
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(06-24-2015, 11:09 AM)m1tch I will go down the EDC route with larger 8mm elements to start with and see where it goes - just need to choose the right route else it will be very expensive and won't give me the results I will be aiming for. Basically getting the pump rebuilt won't be cheap, if I get the EDC pump upgraded and then find it isn't suited to my needs then I would have to pay for another pump rebuild on an OM603 mechanical pump.
i´ll do that for u! u provide the pump and the elements , and if does not work i´ll swap them in the mechanichal for free. except shipping.
but be aware that a remap of ecu is needed and the max RPM u can get is 5500rpm, and even with the remap i belive at least 100cc of fuel will come out the edc. at 3.75v
that is something u need to discuss with dieselmeken.... assuming u´re thinking on his elements
FD,
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06-24-2015, 01:35 PM
#9
(06-24-2015, 11:52 AM)Booster I'm going down the EDC Route, To be honest a few people have had good results with these now.
The extra effort of 602 or 603 pumps not worth it to me.
I understand the 8mm EDC pump can produce plenty enough fuel, However I'd like to see if I can reduce Smoke by a little less fuel and a little water/meth/Nitrous.
I can get big HP with lots of black smoke, I want to limit this as much as possible.
Not to mention water/meth kits can be had for less than the price of a tank of fuel.
if u have lots of black smoke , the power increase is not at the fueling side. is somewhere else , lets say lack of air .....
FD,
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(06-24-2015, 11:52 AM)Booster I'm going down the EDC Route, To be honest a few people have had good results with these now.
The extra effort of 602 or 603 pumps not worth it to me.
I understand the 8mm EDC pump can produce plenty enough fuel, However I'd like to see if I can reduce Smoke by a little less fuel and a little water/meth/Nitrous.
I can get big HP with lots of black smoke, I want to limit this as much as possible.
Not to mention water/meth kits can be had for less than the price of a tank of fuel.
if u have lots of black smoke , the power increase is not at the fueling side. is somewhere else , lets say lack of air .....
FD,
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06-24-2015, 03:17 PM
#10
(06-24-2015, 11:52 AM)Booster I'm going down the EDC Route, To be honest a few people have had good results with these now.
The extra effort of 602 or 603 pumps not worth it to me.
I understand the 8mm EDC pump can produce plenty enough fuel, However I'd like to see if I can reduce Smoke by a little less fuel and a little water/meth/Nitrous.
I can get big HP with lots of black smoke, I want to limit this as much as possible.
Not to mention water/meth kits can be had for less than the price of a tank of fuel.
Thanks for your comment, I have been in 2 minds as to what to do with regards to the pump, most people say to just junk the EDC pump and put in the mechanical pump, this is ok on some of the older cars or indeed for engine swaps as you don't really need to worry about the ECU needing to sort out the rest of the car and the gearbox. As far as I am aware the only thing that is different with the EDC pump is the way the rack is moved - as you said, the 8mm pump elements should produce plenty of fuel and the water/meth setups are cheap these days.
Here is what I am thinking:
EDC pump route
Stock pump with uprated 8mm elements - £900-£1000
ECU remap - £200
Water/meth injection for additional fueling if needed - £250
Pros
Plug and play with stock setup
Able to keep stock gearbox setup
Can use cruise control
Cons
Slightly limited rack travel
Requires remap
Still limited by certain OEM limits/fail safes
Mechanical pump option
OM603 pump as a core - £300
Uprating pump with 8mm elements - £900-£1000
Additional linkages to make mechanical pump work - £100
Additional 722.6 gearbox controller - £450
Water/meth injection for additional fueling if needed - £250
Pros
Unrestricted fueling
Better throttle response
More flexible tuning
Cons
More expensive than uprating EDC
Need for standalone gearbox controller
Possible other issues caused with ECU not having signals fed to it from the fuel pump
(06-24-2015, 11:52 AM)Booster I'm going down the EDC Route, To be honest a few people have had good results with these now.
The extra effort of 602 or 603 pumps not worth it to me.
I understand the 8mm EDC pump can produce plenty enough fuel, However I'd like to see if I can reduce Smoke by a little less fuel and a little water/meth/Nitrous.
I can get big HP with lots of black smoke, I want to limit this as much as possible.
Not to mention water/meth kits can be had for less than the price of a tank of fuel.
Thanks for your comment, I have been in 2 minds as to what to do with regards to the pump, most people say to just junk the EDC pump and put in the mechanical pump, this is ok on some of the older cars or indeed for engine swaps as you don't really need to worry about the ECU needing to sort out the rest of the car and the gearbox. As far as I am aware the only thing that is different with the EDC pump is the way the rack is moved - as you said, the 8mm pump elements should produce plenty of fuel and the water/meth setups are cheap these days.
Here is what I am thinking:
EDC pump route
Stock pump with uprated 8mm elements - £900-£1000
ECU remap - £200
Water/meth injection for additional fueling if needed - £250
Pros
Plug and play with stock setup
Able to keep stock gearbox setup
Can use cruise control
Cons
Slightly limited rack travel
Requires remap
Still limited by certain OEM limits/fail safes
Mechanical pump option
OM603 pump as a core - £300
Uprating pump with 8mm elements - £900-£1000
Additional linkages to make mechanical pump work - £100
Additional 722.6 gearbox controller - £450
Water/meth injection for additional fueling if needed - £250
Pros
Unrestricted fueling
Better throttle response
More flexible tuning
Cons
More expensive than uprating EDC
Need for standalone gearbox controller
Possible other issues caused with ECU not having signals fed to it from the fuel pump
06-25-2015, 01:14 AM
#11
(06-24-2015, 01:35 PM)barrote(06-24-2015, 11:52 AM)Booster I'm going down the EDC Route, To be honest a few people have had good results with these now.
The extra effort of 602 or 603 pumps not worth it to me.
I understand the 8mm EDC pump can produce plenty enough fuel, However I'd like to see if I can reduce Smoke by a little less fuel and a little water/meth/Nitrous.
I can get big HP with lots of black smoke, I want to limit this as much as possible.
Not to mention water/meth kits can be had for less than the price of a tank of fuel.
if u have lots of black smoke , the power increase is not at the fueling side. is somewhere else , lets say lack of air .....
Yes, I know. To this day I have not seen any std that doesn't blow coal! Non producing 400+hp that I can see. I don't have the money for a compound set up nor twin charging it. A big single holset is the best mines going to get. Less fuel from the pump and some meth would limit off boost smoke. Nitrous can clean up any excess fuel on boost.
I'm still sticking to my 1k budget. Got about £600 to sort my pump and get water/meth (got a nitrous kit anyway)
This post was last modified: 06-25-2015, 01:16 AM by Booster.
(06-24-2015, 01:35 PM)barrote(06-24-2015, 11:52 AM)Booster I'm going down the EDC Route, To be honest a few people have had good results with these now.
The extra effort of 602 or 603 pumps not worth it to me.
I understand the 8mm EDC pump can produce plenty enough fuel, However I'd like to see if I can reduce Smoke by a little less fuel and a little water/meth/Nitrous.
I can get big HP with lots of black smoke, I want to limit this as much as possible.
Not to mention water/meth kits can be had for less than the price of a tank of fuel.
if u have lots of black smoke , the power increase is not at the fueling side. is somewhere else , lets say lack of air .....
Yes, I know. To this day I have not seen any std that doesn't blow coal! Non producing 400+hp that I can see. I don't have the money for a compound set up nor twin charging it. A big single holset is the best mines going to get. Less fuel from the pump and some meth would limit off boost smoke. Nitrous can clean up any excess fuel on boost.
I'm still sticking to my 1k budget. Got about £600 to sort my pump and get water/meth (got a nitrous kit anyway)
06-25-2015, 04:19 AM
#12
(06-25-2015, 01:14 AM)if u have lots of black smoke , the power increase is not at the fueling side. is somewhere else , lets say lack of air ..... :) Yes, I know. To this day I have not seen any std that doesn't blow coal! Non producing 400+hp that I can see. I don't have the money for a compound set up nor twin charging it. A big single holset is the best mines going to get. Less fuel from the pump and some meth would limit off boost smoke. Nitrous can clean up any excess fuel on boost.
I'm still sticking to my 1k budget. Got about £600 to sort my pump and get water/meth (got a nitrous kit anyway)
I cant agree with u, if u look at race engines in international races they dont blow any smoke more that a slight haze. so is not needed to blow tons of smoke to get HP.
for instance i made my 605 out of a wreck car and wreck parts and probably i got below 1k pounds , since just for the pump building was almost 500€.
it really pulls very well, no smoke but a lot of work to reach there. and its not finished yet.
and most dificult to achieve , is the turbine, that is the most tricky thing i have encountered till now. hooking a holset can give u power in high RPM, but what about the rest mid and low......
in future i´ll be dealing with the high RPM torque figure, when i´m talking about high RPM is between the 4500 and 6500, and for that i have to improve the head a lot more, at least in the valve side. as it is (stock) does not handles safe those nr´s.
FD,
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(06-25-2015, 01:14 AM)if u have lots of black smoke , the power increase is not at the fueling side. is somewhere else , lets say lack of air ..... :) Yes, I know. To this day I have not seen any std that doesn't blow coal! Non producing 400+hp that I can see. I don't have the money for a compound set up nor twin charging it. A big single holset is the best mines going to get. Less fuel from the pump and some meth would limit off boost smoke. Nitrous can clean up any excess fuel on boost.
I'm still sticking to my 1k budget. Got about £600 to sort my pump and get water/meth (got a nitrous kit anyway)
I cant agree with u, if u look at race engines in international races they dont blow any smoke more that a slight haze. so is not needed to blow tons of smoke to get HP.
for instance i made my 605 out of a wreck car and wreck parts and probably i got below 1k pounds , since just for the pump building was almost 500€.
it really pulls very well, no smoke but a lot of work to reach there. and its not finished yet.
and most dificult to achieve , is the turbine, that is the most tricky thing i have encountered till now. hooking a holset can give u power in high RPM, but what about the rest mid and low......
in future i´ll be dealing with the high RPM torque figure, when i´m talking about high RPM is between the 4500 and 6500, and for that i have to improve the head a lot more, at least in the valve side. as it is (stock) does not handles safe those nr´s.
FD,
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06-25-2015, 05:22 PM
#13
(06-25-2015, 04:19 AM)barrote(06-25-2015, 01:14 AM)if u have lots of black smoke , the power increase is not at the fueling side. is somewhere else , lets say lack of air ..... Yes, I know. To this day I have not seen any std that doesn't blow coal! Non producing 400+hp that I can see. I don't have the money for a compound set up nor twin charging it. A big single holset is the best mines going to get. Less fuel from the pump and some meth would limit off boost smoke. Nitrous can clean up any excess fuel on boost.
I'm still sticking to my 1k budget. Got about £600 to sort my pump and get water/meth (got a nitrous kit anyway)
I cant agree with u, if u look at race engines in international races they dont blow any smoke more that a slight haze. so is not needed to blow tons of smoke to get HP.
for instance i made my 605 out of a wreck car and wreck parts and probably i got below 1k pounds , since just for the pump building was almost 500€.
it really pulls very well, no smoke but a lot of work to reach there. and its not finished yet.
and most dificult to achieve , is the turbine, that is the most tricky thing i have encountered till now. hooking a holset can give u power in high RPM, but what about the rest mid and low......
in future i´ll be dealing with the high RPM torque figure, when i´m talking about high RPM is between the 4500 and 6500, and for that i have to improve the head a lot more, at least in the valve side. as it is (stock) does not handles safe those nr´s.
Yup, I couldn't agree more.
I am no expert! Not everything is about money either! I don't have the time or skill to make certain parts.
However I will give the 605 8mm edc pump + water meth etc a go because I want to. In my own time with my own money.
I really believe in trying things because it's fun to experiment.
I don't have this car to beat records, nor do I care for that sort of thing.
It's my car and most things are built by me.
Remember as long as I'm having fun there is no harm in that. Right or WRONG!!!
The car scene would be so much better if people just gave it ago without worrying what's the best!
If you want the best you will pay for the best....
(06-25-2015, 04:19 AM)barrote(06-25-2015, 01:14 AM)if u have lots of black smoke , the power increase is not at the fueling side. is somewhere else , lets say lack of air ..... Yes, I know. To this day I have not seen any std that doesn't blow coal! Non producing 400+hp that I can see. I don't have the money for a compound set up nor twin charging it. A big single holset is the best mines going to get. Less fuel from the pump and some meth would limit off boost smoke. Nitrous can clean up any excess fuel on boost.
I'm still sticking to my 1k budget. Got about £600 to sort my pump and get water/meth (got a nitrous kit anyway)
I cant agree with u, if u look at race engines in international races they dont blow any smoke more that a slight haze. so is not needed to blow tons of smoke to get HP.
for instance i made my 605 out of a wreck car and wreck parts and probably i got below 1k pounds , since just for the pump building was almost 500€.
it really pulls very well, no smoke but a lot of work to reach there. and its not finished yet.
and most dificult to achieve , is the turbine, that is the most tricky thing i have encountered till now. hooking a holset can give u power in high RPM, but what about the rest mid and low......
in future i´ll be dealing with the high RPM torque figure, when i´m talking about high RPM is between the 4500 and 6500, and for that i have to improve the head a lot more, at least in the valve side. as it is (stock) does not handles safe those nr´s.
Yup, I couldn't agree more.
I am no expert! Not everything is about money either! I don't have the time or skill to make certain parts.
However I will give the 605 8mm edc pump + water meth etc a go because I want to. In my own time with my own money.
I really believe in trying things because it's fun to experiment.
I don't have this car to beat records, nor do I care for that sort of thing.
It's my car and most things are built by me.
Remember as long as I'm having fun there is no harm in that. Right or WRONG!!!
The car scene would be so much better if people just gave it ago without worrying what's the best!
If you want the best you will pay for the best....
06-29-2015, 07:32 PM
#15
carlitosgy6
06-29-2015, 07:32 PM #15nitrous will clear that black smoke converting it on more horsepower at the tires
07-03-2015, 02:40 AM
#16
Water/meth 50/50 mix
Propane injection
Nitrous
Owing to the fact that the nitrous would just add more oxygen it wouldn't really increase the power if there wasn't any additional fuel to burn (I can simply fit a larger turbo), anyone tried propane injection at all? I am still thinking that meth injection would be a good option as it is simple to add additional fueling into the engine vs adding propane which might cause other issues!
Without upgrading the pump, which of these options do people think are the best to increase the fueling:
Water/meth 50/50 mix
Propane injection
Nitrous
Owing to the fact that the nitrous would just add more oxygen it wouldn't really increase the power if there wasn't any additional fuel to burn (I can simply fit a larger turbo), anyone tried propane injection at all? I am still thinking that meth injection would be a good option as it is simple to add additional fueling into the engine vs adding propane which might cause other issues!
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