R134 intercooler?
R134 intercooler?
I know lots of people remove AC to fit an intercooler, but it seems easier to just reuse it for an air to R134 setup.
Thanks
atypicalguy
07-18-2015, 12:06 PM #1Is the heat pumping capacity of the stock air conditioner compressor large enough to effectively intercool say 3 bar of boost on an OM617? I'm guessing not, but I don't know.
I know lots of people remove AC to fit an intercooler, but it seems easier to just reuse it for an air to R134 setup.
Thanks
An air/air intercooler is "free" cooling
1984 300D 4-speed ~200,000 miles
7.5mm M-pump, GT3582 turbo, F-Tune Performance intake/exhaust manifolds, A/A intercooler, 315 nozzles, Enlarged prechambers, Bosch 044 feed pump, Custom lightweight flywheel with 240mm clutch, Lowered, 17" AMG rims - 300 hp OM617 project
1985 300D 280,000 miles RIP
2001 F350 7.3 DP tuner, 4"exhaust, S&B intake
led-panzer
07-18-2015, 01:45 PM #2Seems any gain you'd make with the cooler air would be nullified by running the A/C compressor no?
An air/air intercooler is "free" cooling
1984 300D 4-speed ~200,000 miles
7.5mm M-pump, GT3582 turbo, F-Tune Performance intake/exhaust manifolds, A/A intercooler, 315 nozzles, Enlarged prechambers, Bosch 044 feed pump, Custom lightweight flywheel with 240mm clutch, Lowered, 17" AMG rims - 300 hp OM617 project
1985 300D 280,000 miles RIP
2001 F350 7.3 DP tuner, 4"exhaust, S&B intake
If we assume that the compressor can provide similar cooling to an air to air intercooler, then we know we can cram more pounds per minute of air into the motor, which allows us to put more fuel in, which provides a great deal of power. You are correct that it would not be as efficient as an air to air, because the AC compressor, like the turbo compressors, are not 100% efficient, so it takes some power to cycle the coolant through the system as it is compressed and expands. But that is like 5-10hp maybe. How much hp gain does efficient intercooling allow? A bunch. I'm thinking 20-30hp.
I think this would require a reservoir for the coolant somehow. Under high load/boost it would run behind, but then it would catch up under medium/low loads.
Here is a vid of how it might work dynamically: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaQRwNmt7lY
atypicalguy
07-18-2015, 01:57 PM #3Interesting question, but I think not.
If we assume that the compressor can provide similar cooling to an air to air intercooler, then we know we can cram more pounds per minute of air into the motor, which allows us to put more fuel in, which provides a great deal of power. You are correct that it would not be as efficient as an air to air, because the AC compressor, like the turbo compressors, are not 100% efficient, so it takes some power to cycle the coolant through the system as it is compressed and expands. But that is like 5-10hp maybe. How much hp gain does efficient intercooling allow? A bunch. I'm thinking 20-30hp.
I think this would require a reservoir for the coolant somehow. Under high load/boost it would run behind, but then it would catch up under medium/low loads.
Here is a vid of how it might work dynamically: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaQRwNmt7lY
If we assume that the compressor can provide similar cooling to an air to air intercooler, then we know we can cram more pounds per minute of air into the motor, which allows us to put more fuel in, which provides a great deal of power. You are correct that it would not be as efficient as an air to air, because the AC compressor, like the turbo compressors, are not 100% efficient, so it takes some power to cycle the coolant through the system as it is compressed and expands. But that is like 5-10hp maybe. How much hp gain does efficient intercooling allow? A bunch. I'm thinking 20-30hp.
I think this would require a reservoir for the coolant somehow. Under high load/boost it would run behind, but then it would catch up under medium/low loads.
Here is a vid of how it might work dynamically: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaQRwNmt7lY
http://activeinterchiller.com/
atypicalguy
07-18-2015, 02:02 PM #4Interesting question, but I think not.
If we assume that the compressor can provide similar cooling to an air to air intercooler, then we know we can cram more pounds per minute of air into the motor, which allows us to put more fuel in, which provides a great deal of power. You are correct that it would not be as efficient as an air to air, because the AC compressor, like the turbo compressors, are not 100% efficient, so it takes some power to cycle the coolant through the system as it is compressed and expands. But that is like 5-10hp maybe. How much hp gain does efficient intercooling allow? A bunch. I'm thinking 20-30hp.
I think this would require a reservoir for the coolant somehow. Under high load/boost it would run behind, but then it would catch up under medium/low loads.
Here is a vid of how it might work dynamically: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaQRwNmt7lY
http://activeinterchiller.com/
interesting, i've always thought about using one of those 12v powered cooler for food in your car as a resevoir for you a/w, but i think this might be better. both put draws on the system, i just dont see the draw being more then the gain.
so you'd put the part that gets cold in your intake like a a/w but with the cold side of the a/c in the intake. I imagine it'd work. I see that activeinterchiller use's the a/c to cool a a/w intercooler, but why not just put the cold side in the intake?
interesting, i've always thought about using one of those 12v powered cooler for food in your car as a resevoir for you a/w, but i think this might be better. both put draws on the system, i just dont see the draw being more then the gain.
atypicalguy
07-19-2015, 11:35 AM #6I think they use the water as a heat sink. They make it really cool, then it warms up a bit when you nail it. Then it cools off again when boost is less..
Baldur Gislason
3 bar boost on an OM617 will give you something like 15kg/min of 200°C air if you have a 70% efficient compressor. Cooling this air down to say 40°C removes 40 kilowatts worth of heat out of the system. I don't know for sure how much heat the AC compressor is able to move but it's not that much.
Baldur Gislason
It seems like it is used to supercool (ie below ambient) the water in an AW intercooler, rather like ice is used. They switch.the compressor off at full throttle so the power loss is minimized when.it matters. Then the system rechills the water when under lighter loads. The heat capacity of water is large so it just soaks up heat when the load is higher than the dissipation capacity
atypicalguy
07-19-2015, 04:35 PM #9I think the power draw cannot be more than 5-10 hp.
It seems like it is used to supercool (ie below ambient) the water in an AW intercooler, rather like ice is used. They switch.the compressor off at full throttle so the power loss is minimized when.it matters. Then the system rechills the water when under lighter loads. The heat capacity of water is large so it just soaks up heat when the load is higher than the dissipation capacity
http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/122533-r...?p=1146134
atypicalguy
07-19-2015, 08:18 PM #10Apparently it has been done without the water:
http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/122533-r...?p=1146134
carlitosgy6
08-01-2015, 02:59 PM #11if the compressor is a gm r4 it swallows 12 hp if its the york 15,i think is not a good idea
if im not mistaken the r12 that you find in the w123 is more efficient then r134 just a lot more toxic. you can still find a few places around my area that'll charge r12 systems.
thinking about it, i think its a good idea to use the water as a heat sink. gives the a/c time to really cool the water, especially if its r134 as it takes a while to actaully build up and be effective. plus then as stated you can kick it off at full throttle and not have the power loss of running the compressor.
if im not mistaken the r12 that you find in the w123 is more efficient then r134 just a lot more toxic. you can still find a few places around my area that'll charge r12 systems.
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