W123 or W124, please help a noob to choose + general questions
W123 or W124, please help a noob to choose + general questions
I remember that some time ago I came across this forum after seeing w123 diesel doing an epic burnout on youtube. I viewed some projects on this site and fell in love with the cars you have built. I said to myself that I will do this one day as well.
It seems that this day may have come, well actually just the first step, but you have to start somewhere
Currently I need a reliable secondary car, because "winter is coming", and I have to put my primary car to sleep during winter.
I'm under the impression that old Mercs are so over engineered that they will out-live all of us and eat apocalypse for breakfast.
After reading through forums I have narrowed my choice down to w123 and w124. I have so many questions I don't even know how to structure this topic correctly. I will do my best.
While I'm currently looking at this car as my secondary car, in the end I would like to achieve 300 - 500 horsepower mark.
Visually I do prefer w123, but I understand that you get much bigger bang for your buck (something that is also important to me) from w124.
I also understand that many people swap w123 engine to OM606?
At first I won't be able to to big rebuild, but If possible I would like to achieve 250+ HP this year. My idea was to first purchase the car, then maybe add bigger turbo and some other necessary parts, so I can achieve first HP milestone, afterwards swap engine and add previously purchased parts to the new engine (sorry for oversimplifying)
Currently I'm looking at and plan to go see these:
w123 with 3.0 turbo diesel with 5speed manual (which I understand is quite rare) here
w123 with 2.0 diesel (not sure if turbo) here
w124 with 3.5 diesel (not sure if turbo) here
Here are some more silly questions:
- How do you find out which engine the car has (I'm not talking about the obvious part such as 2.0 diesel or 3.0 diesel, but if it's OM 617, 606, etc.)
- Does w123 has ECU? I suppose W124 does
- Is it hard to swap automatic gearbox to manual gearbox, or should I better find a car with manual box?
- Have you ever had any problems with MOT because of the excessive black smoke?
- 200+ HP
- 350+ HP
- 500 HP
LastPhoenix
09-12-2016, 03:44 PM #1Hello dear forum members!
I remember that some time ago I came across this forum after seeing w123 diesel doing an epic burnout on youtube. I viewed some projects on this site and fell in love with the cars you have built. I said to myself that I will do this one day as well.
It seems that this day may have come, well actually just the first step, but you have to start somewhere
Currently I need a reliable secondary car, because "winter is coming", and I have to put my primary car to sleep during winter.
I'm under the impression that old Mercs are so over engineered that they will out-live all of us and eat apocalypse for breakfast.
After reading through forums I have narrowed my choice down to w123 and w124. I have so many questions I don't even know how to structure this topic correctly. I will do my best.
While I'm currently looking at this car as my secondary car, in the end I would like to achieve 300 - 500 horsepower mark.
Visually I do prefer w123, but I understand that you get much bigger bang for your buck (something that is also important to me) from w124.
I also understand that many people swap w123 engine to OM606?
At first I won't be able to to big rebuild, but If possible I would like to achieve 250+ HP this year. My idea was to first purchase the car, then maybe add bigger turbo and some other necessary parts, so I can achieve first HP milestone, afterwards swap engine and add previously purchased parts to the new engine (sorry for oversimplifying)
Currently I'm looking at and plan to go see these:
w123 with 3.0 turbo diesel with 5speed manual (which I understand is quite rare) here
w123 with 2.0 diesel (not sure if turbo) here
w124 with 3.5 diesel (not sure if turbo) here
Here are some more silly questions:
- How do you find out which engine the car has (I'm not talking about the obvious part such as 2.0 diesel or 3.0 diesel, but if it's OM 617, 606, etc.)
- Does w123 has ECU? I suppose W124 does
- Is it hard to swap automatic gearbox to manual gearbox, or should I better find a car with manual box?
- Have you ever had any problems with MOT because of the excessive black smoke?
- 200+ HP
- 350+ HP
- 500 HP
Well, where to start with...
" I'm under the impression that old Mercs are so over engineered that they will out-live all of us and eat apocalypse for breakfast. "
Ehm .. perhaps the engines.. and the car when it is new from the factory.. because ALL ( I repeat: all) the Benzes rust just when you look at them. They can rust in 10 years more than a good Volkswagen (from 1984 or 1985) does in 30 years.. and I am not exaggerating.
Thus... W124 will deliver welding work.. and W123 more welding work, simply because it is older. Do not forget that, it costs money
About the engines. Both W123 and W124 can fit up to OM606.
For about factory equipped engines, it is easy to find on Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_W123
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_W124
Swapping automatic to manual gearbox is ...
- swapping gearbox
- accommodating launch device (clutch + flywheel OR TQ-converter)
- swapping shifter lever
- for 722.6xx gearbox, there would be some electronics... and for 722.3xx, there would be some mechanical linkaging
OM606 can do 200 HP with stock parts and a bit of " massage"
Welcome to the forum, by the way!
Evgeniy1987
09-13-2016, 03:48 AM #2Hi!
Well, where to start with...
" I'm under the impression that old Mercs are so over engineered that they will out-live all of us and eat apocalypse for breakfast. "
Ehm .. perhaps the engines.. and the car when it is new from the factory.. because ALL ( I repeat: all) the Benzes rust just when you look at them. They can rust in 10 years more than a good Volkswagen (from 1984 or 1985) does in 30 years.. and I am not exaggerating.
Thus... W124 will deliver welding work.. and W123 more welding work, simply because it is older. Do not forget that, it costs money
About the engines. Both W123 and W124 can fit up to OM606.
For about factory equipped engines, it is easy to find on Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_W123
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_W124
Swapping automatic to manual gearbox is ...
- swapping gearbox
- accommodating launch device (clutch + flywheel OR TQ-converter)
- swapping shifter lever
- for 722.6xx gearbox, there would be some electronics... and for 722.3xx, there would be some mechanical linkaging
OM606 can do 200 HP with stock parts and a bit of " massage"
Welcome to the forum, by the way!
Thank you so much for replying, I was so eagerly awaiting some response to my topic
Yes I'm aware of rust, and do know that it can get expensive. Today I will be looking at first two cars from my list and checking for any obvious rust will be a top priority for me. The first car from my list has always been kept in garage (especially during winter time), so I hope it will not be an issue. One of the first things I will do after buying the car will be performing a rust resistance treatment.
By the way, do you have any tips what to look for when inspecting w123 and w124. Also I think that first car from my list is a bit too expensive, or is 3.0 turbodiesel and 5 speed manual good options?
If I understand correctly, the first car from my list has OM617.950 (turbocharged) engine. Would it be a lot of work to reach 300+ HP with this engine? Or should I better already be preparing for engine swap? Same goes for gearbox, is the 5speed a good one, or should I better look for alternative gearboxes afterwards?
Is OM606 the famous engine that everyone is so excited about and one which is tuning friendly? IS OM 606.961 ERE (one which is already turbocharged) the best of the series?
W124 can only be bought with non turbo version, is it a good plan to turbocharge it (I saw that guys from black smoke racing did something similar)? Or should I better just find already turbocharged OM 606?
It is much easier to find w124 mercedes, but how can I see whether engine is om 603 or om 606, by looking at the pictures in google I do spot the difference, but I suppose not all OM 606 engines have the black cover on the left/right (depending oh how you look at it) side.
What did you mean by "massage"?
LastPhoenix
09-13-2016, 07:11 AM #3Hello,
Thank you so much for replying, I was so eagerly awaiting some response to my topic
Yes I'm aware of rust, and do know that it can get expensive. Today I will be looking at first two cars from my list and checking for any obvious rust will be a top priority for me. The first car from my list has always been kept in garage (especially during winter time), so I hope it will not be an issue. One of the first things I will do after buying the car will be performing a rust resistance treatment.
By the way, do you have any tips what to look for when inspecting w123 and w124. Also I think that first car from my list is a bit too expensive, or is 3.0 turbodiesel and 5 speed manual good options?
If I understand correctly, the first car from my list has OM617.950 (turbocharged) engine. Would it be a lot of work to reach 300+ HP with this engine? Or should I better already be preparing for engine swap? Same goes for gearbox, is the 5speed a good one, or should I better look for alternative gearboxes afterwards?
Is OM606 the famous engine that everyone is so excited about and one which is tuning friendly? IS OM 606.961 ERE (one which is already turbocharged) the best of the series?
W124 can only be bought with non turbo version, is it a good plan to turbocharge it (I saw that guys from black smoke racing did something similar)? Or should I better just find already turbocharged OM 606?
It is much easier to find w124 mercedes, but how can I see whether engine is om 603 or om 606, by looking at the pictures in google I do spot the difference, but I suppose not all OM 606 engines have the black cover on the left/right (depending oh how you look at it) side.
What did you mean by "massage"?
Late (post face lift are the worse for rot) W124 multivalves were the only 606 equipped cars and that was the NA version, fitted with the RS203 - a good pump for power.
Side note - Interestingly Evgeniy I had a 1987 Golf Van that absolutely refused to rust. None on it at all.
It was abused from day 1 and was a dog kennel for 2 years. 1600 diesel. 360,000 miles on the clock.
W124 om606 HX40 finished and it's a beauty 450bhp/456ft-lbs
maxypriest
09-13-2016, 10:03 AM #4RUST. I love old Mercs but as Evgeniy says the rot like hell. Took me 2 years to find a good w124 donor. It was a 260e that I converted to diesel/manual.
Late (post face lift are the worse for rot) W124 multivalves were the only 606 equipped cars and that was the NA version, fitted with the RS203 - a good pump for power.
Side note - Interestingly Evgeniy I had a 1987 Golf Van that absolutely refused to rust. None on it at all.
It was abused from day 1 and was a dog kennel for 2 years. 1600 diesel. 360,000 miles on the clock.
W124 om606 HX40 finished and it's a beauty 450bhp/456ft-lbs
617 seems to be an engine people from USA like.
603 and 606 are visually different because 603 is 12v and 606 is 24v, thus the cilinder head of 606 is much wider.
IF you will start with an OM606 and you are going for mechanical setup, the pump can be calibrated to output 200 -210 HP, which according to some sources can be done with the original Turbo. With EDC setup, chip-tuning probably would do not much worse...
From my little experience with my W123 and some W124s, rusting of the suspension system can be a big problem. My W123 had a rusted trailing arm and it was actually very dangerous..fortunately the engine is broken too, otherwise I could drive 100 km/h .. and then the spring would shoot through the trailing arm, with a following crash ..
Both cars rust in / around the fenders... and the lower sections of the doors rust too..
My W123 has the fenders repaired by the previous owner.
My W123 also has a rust hole in the longitudinal member under the car...
The problem with the trailing arm is .. When yours is rusty, the others are just as rusty as yours... so, it is a tricky part. When I will finish my school, I am planning to weld new heavy duty ones myself.. made of 5mm thick steel pipes. Because fck the system
Evgeniy1987
09-13-2016, 11:06 AM #5I have a Scirocco from 1984. 1.9 mTDI . It has a rusty scratch on a fender, which keeps being like as it is. As if it was build out of Cor-Ten steel.
617 seems to be an engine people from USA like.
603 and 606 are visually different because 603 is 12v and 606 is 24v, thus the cilinder head of 606 is much wider.
IF you will start with an OM606 and you are going for mechanical setup, the pump can be calibrated to output 200 -210 HP, which according to some sources can be done with the original Turbo. With EDC setup, chip-tuning probably would do not much worse...
From my little experience with my W123 and some W124s, rusting of the suspension system can be a big problem. My W123 had a rusted trailing arm and it was actually very dangerous..fortunately the engine is broken too, otherwise I could drive 100 km/h .. and then the spring would shoot through the trailing arm, with a following crash ..
Both cars rust in / around the fenders... and the lower sections of the doors rust too..
My W123 has the fenders repaired by the previous owner.
My W123 also has a rust hole in the longitudinal member under the car...
The problem with the trailing arm is .. When yours is rusty, the others are just as rusty as yours... so, it is a tricky part. When I will finish my school, I am planning to weld new heavy duty ones myself.. made of 5mm thick steel pipes. Because fck the system
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