OM602 IP/turbo upgrade
OM602 IP/turbo upgrade
Currently working on a '92 300D 2.5, with an OM602. Been looking at replacing DV seals and springs, and maybe the lift pump, but I figured I might as well price a replacement pump with upgraded nozzles for comparison - turns out it's not too much, but it of course leads to more questions.
I'm looking at upgrading my stock 5,5mm elements to 6,0mm. It's not a huge difference, only about 10%, but I'll be happy if it translates to a 10% performance increase. I'm basically looking for the reliability of a fresh pump and any upgrade will be a bonus. But will this work with a stock engine? I don't want to get into installing an intercooler, monitoring EGTs, or replacing the clutch or transmission.
My second question is about the turbo - should I upgrade, or do I have to? I'm looking at rebuilding my T25, and have the option of converting to T28 components. I don't really know what the difference is. I gather my max boost won't change, since I'll be converting to a pressure-activated wastegate, and anything over 15PSI or so will be wasted. But will it spool up faster or otherwise perform better than the T25 at equal boost pressures?
Thanks for any opinions/advice.
Bummer-Bob
05-23-2017, 11:43 AM #1Couple things:
Currently working on a '92 300D 2.5, with an OM602. Been looking at replacing DV seals and springs, and maybe the lift pump, but I figured I might as well price a replacement pump with upgraded nozzles for comparison - turns out it's not too much, but it of course leads to more questions.
I'm looking at upgrading my stock 5,5mm elements to 6,0mm. It's not a huge difference, only about 10%, but I'll be happy if it translates to a 10% performance increase. I'm basically looking for the reliability of a fresh pump and any upgrade will be a bonus. But will this work with a stock engine? I don't want to get into installing an intercooler, monitoring EGTs, or replacing the clutch or transmission.
My second question is about the turbo - should I upgrade, or do I have to? I'm looking at rebuilding my T25, and have the option of converting to T28 components. I don't really know what the difference is. I gather my max boost won't change, since I'll be converting to a pressure-activated wastegate, and anything over 15PSI or so will be wasted. But will it spool up faster or otherwise perform better than the T25 at equal boost pressures?
Thanks for any opinions/advice.
They will shorten the duration of the fueling event by being bigger and that will help with fuel injected late causing high and quick rising Egt's.
You should contact dieselmeken in Sweden and price compare having a 6mm pump setup here in the states vs a 7.5mm one by him.
Switching to a boost actuator for your turbo would be a no brainer, ditch the egr at the same time and you will be greatly simplifying your vacuum system
If you want to upgrade the compressor wheel and housing to a bigger a/r (t28 or more...) it wouldn't be a bad thing but isn't neccessary until you have a hot pump.
You should still spool the same if your hot side doesn't change.
If you're planning on doing and modifications to the amount of fuel, an egt gauge is a smart choice, especially if you're taking the turbo off at any point.
My 190Dt has merely 1.2 turns out on the full load screw and the Egt's skyrocket to 550*C and more and I have 2.5" mandrel bent free-flowing exhaust.
I've replaced my delivery valve seals and crush washers and also every o-ring inside the lift pump with viton for good measure although I had no indication they were bad.
Basically unless you have money to burn, or want to get into having increased fuel quantities it would cheaper to leave the factory pump installed.
Same for the turbo, unless either one is showing signs of being faulty or worn beyond repair, why change it...
That's just my few cents on the matter of course
78 300D, 87 190D, 94 E320, 95 E300D
Bigpanda16
05-23-2017, 03:33 PM #26mm elements would help, but aren't neccessary unless you've turned up your pump.
They will shorten the duration of the fueling event by being bigger and that will help with fuel injected late causing high and quick rising Egt's.
You should contact dieselmeken in Sweden and price compare having a 6mm pump setup here in the states vs a 7.5mm one by him.
Switching to a boost actuator for your turbo would be a no brainer, ditch the egr at the same time and you will be greatly simplifying your vacuum system
If you want to upgrade the compressor wheel and housing to a bigger a/r (t28 or more...) it wouldn't be a bad thing but isn't neccessary until you have a hot pump.
You should still spool the same if your hot side doesn't change.
If you're planning on doing and modifications to the amount of fuel, an egt gauge is a smart choice, especially if you're taking the turbo off at any point.
My 190Dt has merely 1.2 turns out on the full load screw and the Egt's skyrocket to 550*C and more and I have 2.5" mandrel bent free-flowing exhaust.
I've replaced my delivery valve seals and crush washers and also every o-ring inside the lift pump with viton for good measure although I had no indication they were bad.
Basically unless you have money to burn, or want to get into having increased fuel quantities it would cheaper to leave the factory pump installed.
Same for the turbo, unless either one is showing signs of being faulty or worn beyond repair, why change it...
That's just my few cents on the matter of course
78 300D, 87 190D, 94 E320, 95 E300D
(05-23-2017, 03:33 PM)Bigpanda16 6mm elements would help, but aren't neccessary unless you've turned up your pump.
They will shorten the duration of the fueling event by being bigger and that will help with fuel injected late causing high and quick rising Egt's.
You should contact dieselmeken in Sweden and price compare having a 6mm pump setup here in the states vs a 7.5mm one by him.
Switching to a boost actuator for your turbo would be a no brainer, ditch the egr at the same time and you will be greatly simplifying your vacuum system
If you want to upgrade the compressor wheel and housing to a bigger a/r (t28 or more...) it wouldn't be a bad thing but isn't neccessary until you have a hot pump.
You should still spool the same if your hot side doesn't change.
If you're planning on doing and modifications to the amount of fuel, an egt gauge is a smart choice, especially if you're taking the turbo off at any point.
My 190Dt has merely 1.2 turns out on the full load screw and the Egt's skyrocket to 550*C and more and I have 2.5" mandrel bent free-flowing exhaust.
I've replaced my delivery valve seals and crush washers and also every o-ring inside the lift pump with viton for good measure although I had no indication they were bad.
Basically unless you have money to burn, or want to get into having increased fuel quantities it would cheaper to leave the factory pump installed.
Same for the turbo, unless either one is showing signs of being faulty or worn beyond repair, why change it...
That's just my few cents on the matter of course
Thanks for the info.
The 6mm elements would be in a pump set up by Dieselmeken (i.e., not just dropping in larger elements).
I am having some nailing not solved by injector nozzle replacement, so I'm looking at DV o-ring, crush washer, & spring replacement. I am concerned about the possibility of worn or pitted DV's, which of course would increase project cost. I also suspect lower-than-ideal fuel pressure, so I'm looking at replacing the bypass valve spring and possibly the lift pump - and I just sort of got to the point of, why not change the whole pump with a (slightly) upgraded one?
At the same time I am pulling the turbo for the wastegate conversion and EGR delete, and to have it rebuilt due to an oil leak (and just for good measure), so I figure if I'm going to upgrade the IP I might as well upgrade the turbo.
I guess an EGT gauge would be cake compared to everything else I have planned, but at the same time I don't want to bother if it's not needed.
Bummer-Bob
05-23-2017, 03:51 PM #3(05-23-2017, 03:33 PM)Bigpanda16 6mm elements would help, but aren't neccessary unless you've turned up your pump.
They will shorten the duration of the fueling event by being bigger and that will help with fuel injected late causing high and quick rising Egt's.
You should contact dieselmeken in Sweden and price compare having a 6mm pump setup here in the states vs a 7.5mm one by him.
Switching to a boost actuator for your turbo would be a no brainer, ditch the egr at the same time and you will be greatly simplifying your vacuum system
If you want to upgrade the compressor wheel and housing to a bigger a/r (t28 or more...) it wouldn't be a bad thing but isn't neccessary until you have a hot pump.
You should still spool the same if your hot side doesn't change.
If you're planning on doing and modifications to the amount of fuel, an egt gauge is a smart choice, especially if you're taking the turbo off at any point.
My 190Dt has merely 1.2 turns out on the full load screw and the Egt's skyrocket to 550*C and more and I have 2.5" mandrel bent free-flowing exhaust.
I've replaced my delivery valve seals and crush washers and also every o-ring inside the lift pump with viton for good measure although I had no indication they were bad.
Basically unless you have money to burn, or want to get into having increased fuel quantities it would cheaper to leave the factory pump installed.
Same for the turbo, unless either one is showing signs of being faulty or worn beyond repair, why change it...
That's just my few cents on the matter of course
Thanks for the info.
The 6mm elements would be in a pump set up by Dieselmeken (i.e., not just dropping in larger elements).
I am having some nailing not solved by injector nozzle replacement, so I'm looking at DV o-ring, crush washer, & spring replacement. I am concerned about the possibility of worn or pitted DV's, which of course would increase project cost. I also suspect lower-than-ideal fuel pressure, so I'm looking at replacing the bypass valve spring and possibly the lift pump - and I just sort of got to the point of, why not change the whole pump with a (slightly) upgraded one?
At the same time I am pulling the turbo for the wastegate conversion and EGR delete, and to have it rebuilt due to an oil leak (and just for good measure), so I figure if I'm going to upgrade the IP I might as well upgrade the turbo.
I guess an EGT gauge would be cake compared to everything else I have planned, but at the same time I don't want to bother if it's not needed.
Sorry to highjack mr big panda but not all the info u stated is completly correct.
A 602 will as any engine benefit from a upgraded element swap. Expecially if they are bosch 6 mm. (554's) cause this element will enable the pump to pump out at least 70/80cc without major changes in the governor.
And with stock governor will enable 50/60cc when boost rises. This amounts will not claim any engine. 550c° egt is normal and most often that is due to lack of boost.
Any turbo is better than T series. To leave it close to stock recomend gt25 (stock 605)at 1.5 max boost.
With this small mod it can give 150PS.
The rest i agree and is factual info. Usually spending money in a 6 mil why not buy a 7.5 at 30% more!!!!
Regards and good builds.
FD,
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Hy,
Sorry to highjack mr big panda but not all the info u stated is completly correct.
A 602 will as any engine benefit from a upgraded element swap. Expecially if they are bosch 6 mm. (554's) cause this element will enable the pump to pump out at least 70/80cc without major changes in the governor.
And with stock governor will enable 50/60cc when boost rises. This amounts will not claim any engine. 550c° egt is normal and most often that is due to lack of boost.
Any turbo is better than T series. To leave it close to stock recomend gt25 (stock 605)at 1.5 max boost.
With this small mod it can give 150PS.
The rest i agree and is factual info. Usually spending money in a 6 mil why not buy a 7.5 at 30% more!!!!
Regards and good builds.
FD,
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(05-25-2017, 02:18 AM)barrote The rest i agree and is factual info. Usually spending money in a 6 mil why not buy a 7.5 at 30% more!!!!
Regards and good builds.
I thought the 7,5mm elements were more for race builds? This would be for a daily driver, just like for a little more oomph without stressing the engine or drivetrain. If I did the pump with 7,5mm elements, wouldn't I need to add an intercooler and upgrade the transmission?
Bummer-Bob
05-25-2017, 12:04 PM #5(05-25-2017, 02:18 AM)barrote The rest i agree and is factual info. Usually spending money in a 6 mil why not buy a 7.5 at 30% more!!!!
Regards and good builds.
I thought the 7,5mm elements were more for race builds? This would be for a daily driver, just like for a little more oomph without stressing the engine or drivetrain. If I did the pump with 7,5mm elements, wouldn't I need to add an intercooler and upgrade the transmission?
not necessarly , the trans and clutch and cooler....
the thing is, if u want the elemento swap to be done by professionals , so that the pump work as it should in the end, it will cost Money , is not something u can do with your boys in an afternoon.
considering that plus the elemento cost, sometimes is better to go for the big cake, cause big cakes can be sliced in normal chunks.
if u were somewhere in europe i would do that for u at a resonably cheap price, but in the states is expensive to ship but if u want pm.
but keep in mind that even a race car can be driven by the wife, if not is not a real race car ....
regards
FD,
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Ho boy , u got a lot of Reading in front of u...
not necessarly , the trans and clutch and cooler....
the thing is, if u want the elemento swap to be done by professionals , so that the pump work as it should in the end, it will cost Money , is not something u can do with your boys in an afternoon.
considering that plus the elemento cost, sometimes is better to go for the big cake, cause big cakes can be sliced in normal chunks.
if u were somewhere in europe i would do that for u at a resonably cheap price, but in the states is expensive to ship but if u want pm.
but keep in mind that even a race car can be driven by the wife, if not is not a real race car ....
regards
FD,
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(05-25-2017, 12:16 PM)barrote Ho boy , u got a lot of Reading in front of u...
not necessarly , the trans and clutch and cooler....
the thing is, if u want the elemento swap to be done by professionals , so that the pump work as it should in the end, it will cost Money , is not something u can do with your boys in an afternoon.
considering that plus the elemento cost, sometimes is better to go for the big cake, cause big cakes can be sliced in normal chunks.
if u were somewhere in europe i would do that for u at a resonably cheap price, but in the states is expensive to ship but if u want pm.
but keep in mind that even a race car can be driven by the wife, if not is not a real race car ....
regards
No, I'm not going to be swapping the elements myself, or opening up the IP in any other way - it will be a pump professionally set up by Dieselmeken. It will cost money, of course.
I've been doing some reading, but obviously not enough. Most of the US-based owners I've come across are very wary of fitting larger elements and turbos because they say you risk melting pistons and/or burning out transmissions. For some reason, this kind of modification is just not very popular over here.
Bummer-Bob
05-25-2017, 12:49 PM #7(05-25-2017, 12:16 PM)barrote Ho boy , u got a lot of Reading in front of u...
not necessarly , the trans and clutch and cooler....
the thing is, if u want the elemento swap to be done by professionals , so that the pump work as it should in the end, it will cost Money , is not something u can do with your boys in an afternoon.
considering that plus the elemento cost, sometimes is better to go for the big cake, cause big cakes can be sliced in normal chunks.
if u were somewhere in europe i would do that for u at a resonably cheap price, but in the states is expensive to ship but if u want pm.
but keep in mind that even a race car can be driven by the wife, if not is not a real race car ....
regards
No, I'm not going to be swapping the elements myself, or opening up the IP in any other way - it will be a pump professionally set up by Dieselmeken. It will cost money, of course.
I've been doing some reading, but obviously not enough. Most of the US-based owners I've come across are very wary of fitting larger elements and turbos because they say you risk melting pistons and/or burning out transmissions. For some reason, this kind of modification is just not very popular over here.
IDI engines like this 617.602.605 and his small and large brothers are very though and is not easy to melt a piston in one.
Gaskets may burn and rings but pistons and bearings never seen.
DI engines like VW TDI and CDI Cummins late gen . Those can give u that, And some other bearing related issues.
Diesel tunning is a lot more dificult than gas . And expensive . And worst results....
Dieselmeken pump, buy 7.5 set to max 90cc and your 602 will survive lpng time.
Regards
FD,
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Not popular overthere and elsewhere, people fear diesel tunning cause is something that may bring large repair cost...
IDI engines like this 617.602.605 and his small and large brothers are very though and is not easy to melt a piston in one.
Gaskets may burn and rings but pistons and bearings never seen.
DI engines like VW TDI and CDI Cummins late gen . Those can give u that, And some other bearing related issues.
Diesel tunning is a lot more dificult than gas . And expensive . And worst results....
Dieselmeken pump, buy 7.5 set to max 90cc and your 602 will survive lpng time.
Regards
FD,
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(05-25-2017, 02:18 AM)barrote Hy,
Sorry to highjack mr big panda but not all the info u stated is completly correct.
A 602 will as any engine benefit from a upgraded element swap. Expecially if they are bosch 6 mm. (554's) cause this element will enable the pump to pump out at least 70/80cc without major changes in the governor.
And with stock governor will enable 50/60cc when boost rises. This amounts will not claim any engine. 550c° egt is normal and most often that is due to lack of boost.
Any turbo is better than T series. To leave it close to stock recomend gt25 (stock 605)at 1.5 max boost.
With this small mod it can give 150PS.
The rest i agree and is factual info. Usually spending money in a 6 mil why not buy a 7.5 at 30% more!!!!
Regards and good builds.
So I settled on the Dieselmeken pump with 7.5mm elements, set at 90cc of fuel. Do you think the stock turbo is sufficient for this application? I was thinking about upgrading from T25 to T28 for faster spooling, and limiting boost to 1 or 1.5 Bar. Also, maybe exhaust manifold replacement for better evacuation of exhaust gases & fitting of an EGT probe. Thoughts?
Bummer-Bob
06-27-2017, 11:20 AM #9(05-25-2017, 02:18 AM)barrote Hy,
Sorry to highjack mr big panda but not all the info u stated is completly correct.
A 602 will as any engine benefit from a upgraded element swap. Expecially if they are bosch 6 mm. (554's) cause this element will enable the pump to pump out at least 70/80cc without major changes in the governor.
And with stock governor will enable 50/60cc when boost rises. This amounts will not claim any engine. 550c° egt is normal and most often that is due to lack of boost.
Any turbo is better than T series. To leave it close to stock recomend gt25 (stock 605)at 1.5 max boost.
With this small mod it can give 150PS.
The rest i agree and is factual info. Usually spending money in a 6 mil why not buy a 7.5 at 30% more!!!!
Regards and good builds.
So I settled on the Dieselmeken pump with 7.5mm elements, set at 90cc of fuel. Do you think the stock turbo is sufficient for this application? I was thinking about upgrading from T25 to T28 for faster spooling, and limiting boost to 1 or 1.5 Bar. Also, maybe exhaust manifold replacement for better evacuation of exhaust gases & fitting of an EGT probe. Thoughts?
If u want to upgrade use gt25c from 605.
Exaust manifold is ok. Then u watch the smoke and depending on the smoke and what u want maybe a hx30 in future and a litle more fuel...
Exaust pipe at 65mm minimum with just a small mufler in the end
FD,
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Well at 90cc u can use stock turbo at 1.5 bar...
If u want to upgrade use gt25c from 605.
Exaust manifold is ok. Then u watch the smoke and depending on the smoke and what u want maybe a hx30 in future and a litle more fuel...
Exaust pipe at 65mm minimum with just a small mufler in the end
FD,
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(06-27-2017, 12:21 PM)barrote Well at 90cc u can use stock turbo at 1.5 bar...
If u want to upgrade use gt25c from 605.
Exaust manifold is ok. Then u watch the smoke and depending on the smoke and what u want maybe a hx30 in future and a litle more fuel...
Exaust pipe at 65mm minimum with just a small mufler in the end
Thanks for the tips.
I didn't think the stock turbo could make that much boost - how far can I go without worrying about overboost? Is 1.5 Bar safely below that limit?
I know that if I have too much fuel, I'll get a lot of black smoke - but how will I know if I've gone too high on boost?
Bummer-Bob
06-27-2017, 06:13 PM #11(06-27-2017, 12:21 PM)barrote Well at 90cc u can use stock turbo at 1.5 bar...
If u want to upgrade use gt25c from 605.
Exaust manifold is ok. Then u watch the smoke and depending on the smoke and what u want maybe a hx30 in future and a litle more fuel...
Exaust pipe at 65mm minimum with just a small mufler in the end
Thanks for the tips.
I didn't think the stock turbo could make that much boost - how far can I go without worrying about overboost? Is 1.5 Bar safely below that limit?
I know that if I have too much fuel, I'll get a lot of black smoke - but how will I know if I've gone too high on boost?
The turbo will not destroy itself if is making 2 3 or 4 bar boost, just like that...
Thing is the compressor will compress air in kg at certain pressure ratios , for a certain drive pressure and flow over the turbine. That is what is called the comp map.
But in the case of this gt25 the press ratio wich it operates well with low drive press is about 2.5 to 2.7.
If u push this turbo over 2.7 the drive pressure will increase so much that u gain nothing and there is a risk of compressor stall when the pressure is removed (unthr) compressor will surge and vibrations will start to destroy it.
Thats why mb decided by 1.3 bar boost for control.
But remember 1.3 in the gauge may be 2.5 absolute press ratio, cause in the gauge i dont see the impact of the filter and piping.
By experience i can tell u to use this turbo with WG set to start opening at 1.5 bar in the boost gauge if u are at sea level. Use a mesh screen as air filter.
If u have a 4×4 u need proper filtering, in this case 1.5 is too much. And the end result could be high drive pressure and high EGP and that cause the engine to heat up and exibit strange behaviour like nailing and so on.
U got to try out, otherwise u cant know if it works or not...
FD,
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Ok ok, listen turbo working principles got nothing to do with max safe boost...
The turbo will not destroy itself if is making 2 3 or 4 bar boost, just like that...
Thing is the compressor will compress air in kg at certain pressure ratios , for a certain drive pressure and flow over the turbine. That is what is called the comp map.
But in the case of this gt25 the press ratio wich it operates well with low drive press is about 2.5 to 2.7.
If u push this turbo over 2.7 the drive pressure will increase so much that u gain nothing and there is a risk of compressor stall when the pressure is removed (unthr) compressor will surge and vibrations will start to destroy it.
Thats why mb decided by 1.3 bar boost for control.
But remember 1.3 in the gauge may be 2.5 absolute press ratio, cause in the gauge i dont see the impact of the filter and piping.
By experience i can tell u to use this turbo with WG set to start opening at 1.5 bar in the boost gauge if u are at sea level. Use a mesh screen as air filter.
If u have a 4×4 u need proper filtering, in this case 1.5 is too much. And the end result could be high drive pressure and high EGP and that cause the engine to heat up and exibit strange behaviour like nailing and so on.
U got to try out, otherwise u cant know if it works or not...
FD,
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Bummer-Bob
08-30-2017, 09:48 PM #13Dieselmeken pump is finally built and en route to me. I'm not sure how soon I'll be able to install it - I was planning on rebuilding the turbo, replacing the exhaust manifold, and installing an EGT gauge, but part of me just wants to install the pump and leave everything else stock for now - but I guess I'm still a little worried about EGTs with no intercooler - but I really, really don't want to mess with an intercooler, as I know I'd quickly be in over my head with the amount of fabrication required...
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