7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine

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RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - EDH_Performance - 03-11-2012

(03-09-2012, 04:01 AM)Savitas
(03-08-2012, 08:19 AM)EDH_Performance Haha, i just ordered a BMW e39 530d gearbox and clutch from a wreckyard in sweden, This will hold the power

This is my GS5-39DZ gearbox ready to fit with OM606 engine.

BMW gearbox should hold your torque, but I'm in deep doubt about original clutch. I offer you to not waste money and buy some ceramic clutch and and stronger pressure plate.

I bought a used clutcplate just to use the center Wink

I have a 6 puck universal plate that i also bought form sweden! Big Grin

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - Alastair E - 03-13-2012

Wow!

I havent been on this Forum for a while....

My my! You guys have made Light-years progress since 2 years ago! Keep up the most excellent work!

Huge respect to Dieselmeken and Tomnik for your efforts.

Now--How on earth do you fit the BMW trans to the OM.606!--New backplate or bellhousing?

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - EDH_Performance - 03-13-2012

(03-13-2012, 06:15 AM)Alastair E Wow!

I havent been on this Forum for a while....

My my! You guys have made Light-years progress since 2 years ago! Keep up the most excellent work!

Huge respect to Dieselmeken and Tomnik for your efforts.

Now--How on earth do you fit the BMW trans to the OM.606!--New backplate or bellhousing?

You just weld the om60x bllhousing on to a bmw trans...But you ned to build a custom gershifter, and a new propshaft Smile

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - Twinturboguy - 03-14-2012

I am going to try and read on. I was too excited to read it all.

häftigt !
I found you finally hahah. I joined here just to find this info from watching your video.
Check out my thread. http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/Thread-OM601-performance-adding-Turbo-looking-for-Info

Will this work on a OM601? I am going to read on.. Excited.

Finished reading.. Sounds too good to be true. anyone running this on non turbo cars? 4cyl 2.2L/2.5L's

So cool
Thx Dieselmeken

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - winmutt - 03-15-2012

(03-08-2012, 05:05 AM)EDH_Performance Here is one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da_aPaNexrM&feature=player_embedded#!

The other car is an BMW 325ix with 170 hp.

I have no 3rd and so I have alot of lag I 4th because of that
Feeding pressure to the pump is 3bar.
The turbo is putting out 1.7bar, around 450-500c in EGT, and it is still smoking, so i need to turn the stoparm down a bit more

Its really a shame about 3rd. Can't wait to see it with 6 short gears Big Grin

Meken, I am ready to go when you are.

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - W126Lover - 03-18-2012

So how do i get some 7.5 elements for my om603 pump?

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - DeliveryValve - 03-18-2012

(03-18-2012, 12:22 AM)W126Lover So how do i get some 7.5 elements for my om603 pump?

Contact Göran (dieselmeken) the original poster of this thread. He'll get you hooked up.

.

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - pp d - 03-18-2012

(03-18-2012, 12:22 AM)W126Lover So how do i get some 7.5 elements for my om603 pump?

You can always send your pump to me, if you don´t want to wait for months Wink

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - dieselmeken - 03-21-2012

(03-18-2012, 10:29 AM)pp d
(03-18-2012, 12:22 AM)W126Lover So how do i get some 7.5 elements for my om603 pump?

You can always send your pump to me, if you don´t want to wait for months

Soon I´m ready. Factory told me end of Mars.
This is serie 1, just to show that I really have them, if anyone doubted

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - EDH_Performance - 03-21-2012

(03-21-2012, 04:09 AM)dieselmeken
(03-18-2012, 10:29 AM)pp d
(03-18-2012, 12:22 AM)W126Lover So how do i get some 7.5 elements for my om603 pump?

You can always send your pump to me, if you don´t want to wait for months

Soon I´m ready. Factory told me end of Mars.
This is serie 1, just to show that I really have them, if anyone doubted

Looks very good Gøran! Smile

Do you think the series 2 will giv 200+cc in a good tuned M-Pump?
I will need it Tongue

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - dieselmeken - 03-21-2012

(03-21-2012, 04:54 AM)EDH_Performance
(03-21-2012, 04:09 AM)dieselmeken
(03-18-2012, 10:29 AM)pp d You can always send your pump to me, if you don´t want to wait for months

Soon I´m ready. Factory told me end of Mars.
This is serie 1, just to show that I really have them, if anyone doubted

Looks very good Gøran!
Do you think the series 2 will giv 200+cc in a good tuned M-Pump?
I will need it

200?? I know when I have them in my testbench, Do you think you can burn 200cc to 100% ?

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - EDH_Performance - 03-21-2012

I can not burn 200cc of ful as we speak, but maybe after some modifications... Big Grin

My plan is to build a beast Big Grin

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - Twinturboguy - 03-21-2012

PM me about pricing. interested in all the details. I pmed you already.
Do we need to send you a core? would sending core make it way cheaper? or u dont need?

Thx
Awesome work!! I am going to buy a US merc 90-93 300TD 2.5L similar to the pump you made for that mercedes in the video. And half the power or so you made in that video.. I would be happy with lol.

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - dieselmerc - 03-21-2012

(03-21-2012, 05:48 AM)EDH_Performance I can not burn 200cc of ful as we speak, but maybe after some modifications... My plan is to build a beast

if i were you i would send the pump to finland to Mxxä! and mxxäs pumps is proven to work and in the end has the most power! email them and you hear that they know what they are doing( guess it is a sensitive name to say here Confused

) they will hook you up with a 8mm pump that provides 760hp! and the moore fuel you give the more the turbo will charge=more power, so to say you dont need over 170 if you have under 600hp isn´t true, by the way 3bar on om603 with 170cc =no smoke, i have tested. so that means more fuel can be added Big Grin

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - dieselmeken - 03-21-2012

Yea, do that. Send it to Mynä.

(03-21-2012, 07:55 AM)dieselmerc
(03-21-2012, 05:48 AM)EDH_Performance I can not burn 200cc of ful as we speak, but maybe after some modifications... My plan is to build a beast

if i were you i would send the pump to finland to Mxxä! and mxxäs pumps is proven to work and in the end has the most power! email them and you hear that they know what they are doing( guess it is a sensitive name to say here) they will hook you up with a 8mm pump that provides 760hp! and the moore fuel you give the more the turbo will charge=more power, so to say you dont need over 170 if you have under 600hp isn´t true, by the way 3bar on om603 with 170cc =no smoke, i have tested. so that means more fuel can be added

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - EDH_Performance - 03-21-2012

I will rather speak with Gøran in my own language, than the finns Smile

But hey, the finns are skilled too!

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - yankneck696 - 03-21-2012

This is Goran's thread. For all of you people trying to steal potential customers away from him is pretty cheezy !!! He is showing his devotion to our machines & what he is developing. Have some class.

Goran, YOU will get my business when II am ready...

Ed

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - ErikT - 03-21-2012

I'm a new guy here but I agree with yankneck696. I find it disrespectful and show a lacking in character.

I have a MB G with a OM617A and are looking to get a tuned pump later this year or in 2013, and "pp d" conduct in this thread has made it way more likely I'll get a pump from Gøran, despite all the happy customers "pp d" have here in Norway in the G community!

Gøran, keep up with all the great threads here and youtube videos!

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - mantahead - 03-21-2012

I have to say i was very happy with my pump (THE CHALLENGE PUMP) that was built by Dieselmeken.
the car didn't make massive power but that is manifold restrictions (standard exhaust manifold)
the pump had enough fuel to push 3.3 bar of boost.

I will be sending my 606 pump to Goran when i have the engine ready.
I will want 200cc also.

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - winmutt - 03-21-2012

(03-21-2012, 07:55 AM)dieselmerc ( guess it is a sensitive name to say here)

What a silly notion...

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - pp d - 03-22-2012

Well, Dieselmeken sent the PM and told he is unhappy for my hijack his thread.
I told him I didn´t think it that way. I see I was inconsiderate and I apologize.

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - Booster - 03-22-2012

I think the nice thing about Dieselmeken is he is here talking to us and showing us what he is doing, Last time I checked you couldn't ask myna anything to do with there pumps without them getting the hump...

I too will use Dieselmeken as soon as I need it done, Just for the fact he has been nothing but help to me and others on the forum.

However its clear there our others out there who will do you pump, you cant stop people going else where.

If they want a pump right now then they will have to go else where, no ones fault there!

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - dieselmerc - 03-22-2012

hi, my fault i didn´t realize that i where in dieselmekens own thread. if i knew i wouldn´t posted. forget what i said in earlier post!

i think the work he does is great and that it is intresting to watch how he does the pumps,

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - erling66 - 03-23-2012

Hi Dieselmeken you are doing a great job giving the Finns some serious competition Smile

And imagine if you can build a pump for EDH-performance that will give him 1000NM? that is the same torque as in the new AMG SL65 with a 6.0 liter V12 biturbo.
But why do you go for 7.5mm elements? Did you just copy Tomniks Floyd elements? Or do you agree with him that this is the best all around size for our engines?

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - dieselmeken - 03-23-2012

Hi Erling Thanks a lot and thanks to you all for reading my topics and appreciate my work & developing.
I must tell you all that Toms Floyd not have been copyed by me, and that I have also told Tom by e-mail. I have had contact with Tom all the way. Also I have had some of Toms element in my workshop, but for high performance engine, that is 140-150cc++ ( 170-200), they where not enough. I dont know about his superfloyd, havent seen that one IRL.

The size, 7,5 mm is the only thing that we have in common.
Reason was that Myna have 7,0 mm, I wanted something that could beat Mynä, so 7,5mm seems to be the biggest that I can draw. The diameter around the adjustingcap is 9,95mm, inside 7,50 mm, that gives a wall in the element that is just 1,23mm, kind of thin, there is a risk that the element will crack at very high rpm if I did it larger.

If I will go any bigger, I need new adjustingcaps, springs etc and that would bee to much work to develope

Toms floyd is developed to give a short injection time for clean burn, the power comes as a bonus but with a long injection time.
Here is a picture, is it copyed? Dont think so.

(03-23-2012, 04:09 AM)erling66 Hi Dieselmeken you are doing a great job giving the Finns some serious competition And imagine if you can build a pump for EDH-performance that will give him 1000NM? that is the same torque as in the new AMG SL65 with a 6.0 liter V12 biturbo.
But why do you go for 7.5mm elements? Did you just copy Tomniks Floyd elements? Or do you agree with him that this is the best all around size for our engines?

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - dieselmerc - 03-23-2012

dieselmeken, what do you think aboat the different camshafts in pumps with rs under 173 and those with rs over 173? according to the finns you will get significant more power from the higher rs number due to "quicker" injection time, for exampel you get aboat 460hp (om606) with older camshaft and aboat 570hp with newer model camshaft according to the finns,(with 170cc)

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - tomnik - 03-23-2012

(03-23-2012, 07:03 AM)dieselmeken The diameter around the adjustingcap is 9,95mm, inside 7,50 mm, that gives a wall in the element that is just 1,23mm, kind of thin, there is a risk that the element will crack at very high rpm if I did it larger.

If I will go any bigger, I need new adjustingcaps, springs etc and that would bee to much work to develope

Hey, this is exactly the reason for the "Super-" of the SuperFloyd Angel

If the element with thin lower wall can make it through the heat treatment for hardening it will most properly not crack in the pump during operation.
This and how such elements fit into the pump is engineering.

Tom

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - dieselmeken - 03-23-2012

(03-23-2012, 02:17 PM)dieselmerc dieselmeken, what do you think aboat the different camshafts in pumps with rs under 173 and those with rs over 173? according to the finns you will get significant more power from the higher rs number due to "quicker" injection time, for exampel you get aboat 460hp (om606) with older camshaft and aboat 570hp with newer model camshaft according to the finns,(with 170cc)

I have hard to see that the camshaft duration only will give 110 hp extra, when putting on 170cc, you must have 20 mm of rack in a 7 mm mynä pump, that I have tested in my own bench, that gives a total injectiontime of around 35-40 degrees, that is far to long to give that power according to me.

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - mantahead - 03-23-2012

(03-23-2012, 04:07 PM)dieselmeken
(03-23-2012, 02:17 PM)dieselmerc dieselmeken, what do you think aboat the different camshafts in pumps with rs under 173 and those with rs over 173? according to the finns you will get significant more power from the higher rs number due to "quicker" injection time, for exampel you get aboat 460hp (om606) with older camshaft and aboat 570hp with newer model camshaft according to the finns,(with 170cc)

I have hard to see that the camshaft duration only will give 110 hp extra, when putting on 170cc, you must have 20 mm of rack in a 7 mm mynä pump, that I have tested in my own bench, that gives a total injectiontime of around 35-40 degrees, that is far to long to give that power according to me.

hi,
to be fair, i have asked this question to Goran and other people before but have never had a proper answer.
DO MYNA MODIFY THE PUMP CAMSHAFT?????
I know about engines but not alot about pumps but surely modifing the cam can give more fuel and shorter duration which will decrease EGTs
Am i correct?????
??????

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - tomnik - 03-24-2012

(03-23-2012, 05:57 PM)mantahead modifing the cam can give more fuel and shorter duration which will decrease EGTs
Am i correct?????

correct,

BUT: modifying the cam profile for more and faster delivery will damage the pump. A "harder" cam profile will need harder springs to keep the roller on the cam. The cam profile gives the plunger speed. You want slow speed near bottom position to allow fuel getting into the element. Near end of injection you also want slow plunger speed to avoid excessive wear due to cavitation.

Maybe o.k. for tractor pullers but never for a car that should make it more than just some hundreds of meters.

The one and only technical correct solution is increasing the element diameter.

Tom

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - dieselmeken - 03-24-2012

(03-24-2012, 12:21 AM)tomnik
(03-23-2012, 05:57 PM)mantahead modifing the cam can give more fuel and shorter duration which will decrease EGTs
Am i correct?????

correct,

BUT: modifying the cam profile for more and faster delivery will damage the pump. A "harder" cam profile will need harder springs to keep the roller on the cam. The cam profile gives the plunger speed. You want slow speed near bottom position to allow fuel getting into the element. Near end of injection you also want slow plunger speed to avoid excessive wear due to cavitation.

Maybe o.k. for tractor pullers but never for a car that should make it more than just some hundreds of meters.

The one and only technical correct solution is increasing the element diameter.

Tom

Based on Toms theory, that btw is correct, I have hard to see that camshafts are grinded. I dont know but the already thin wall , 1,23mm in the element would crack easy when the cam lifts the plunger. Imagine 8 mm plunger & grinded cam Undecided

( here its time for your own thinking)

I have bought a set of 12 mm plunger, springs and adjusting caps to a A-size pump from www.rocken-tech.com that I waiting for.
A-size have a 10 mm max plunger size as original. Springs are harder, from 28kg original to 60 kg somewhere, this is for a 10.000rpm VW 1,9TDI

I will take a look at it and see if its plausible to do something like this in a M-serie.

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - winmutt - 03-24-2012

(03-22-2012, 01:02 AM)pp d Well, Dieselmeken sent the PM and told he is unhappy for my hijack his thread.
I told him I didn´t think it that way. I see I was inconsiderate and I apologize.

Healthy competition is good Big Grin

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - jeemu - 03-24-2012

when we go 500hp diesels things that seems to be small have big influens, maybe that is the word Huh

Any way 2 degreees at pump timing can give you almost 50hp. Just mean at couple of little things can make big difference.

Try to say earlier at it really dosent matter how much pump give on test pench because there is a lot of changes then the pump is on engine..

I think at if you can get 200cc of 7.5mm on test pench customer cant got that amount on engine, but we talk around 170cc true..

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - mantahead - 03-25-2012

hi Jeemu,
how many cc did you have when you made 550bhp? and what sort of EGTs

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - jeemu - 03-26-2012

(03-25-2012, 03:03 PM)mantahead hi Jeemu,
how many cc did you have when you made 550bhp? and what sort of EGTs

175cc and bout 740c. New pump is ready Big Grin

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - mantahead - 03-26-2012

(03-26-2012, 02:32 PM)jeemu
(03-25-2012, 03:03 PM)mantahead hi Jeemu,
how many cc did you have when you made 550bhp? and what sort of EGTs
175cc and bout 740c. New pump is ready

nice one. Keep us posted.

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - Savitas - 03-27-2012

(03-26-2012, 02:32 PM)jeemu
(03-25-2012, 03:03 PM)mantahead hi Jeemu,
how many cc did you have when you made 550bhp? and what sort of EGTs
175cc and bout 740c. New pump is ready

I hope Dieselmeken will provide such fuel amount pumps for us, and we could do such power as Jeemu does. I hope ...

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - tomnik - 03-28-2012

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=298836696849067&set=a.298827440183326.68957.224359847630086&type=1&theater

this is one example of incorrect information in the web why I stop selling elements to individuals...

Savitas: these are Floyd elements (just the cap of the packaging tube is Monark)

Tom

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - Savitas - 03-28-2012

(03-28-2012, 06:10 AM)tomnik http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=298836696849067&set=a.298827440183326.68957.224359847630086&type=1&theater

this is one example of incorrect information in the web why I stop selling elements to individuals...

Savitas: these are Floyd elements (just the cap of the packaging tube is Monark)

Tom

Sorry for wrong name. Yes, I,m not the first person who made same mistake and give Monark name for your elements in forums. I think this not my quilty, but packaging is not correct in this way.

And for the truth.. it is absolutely wrong judgment to stop selling elements because someone made mistake and wrong named elements in case elements was in packaging with other name.

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - Alastair E - 03-28-2012

I believe the Reason that guys like Myna are reticent about sharing info--Is the Industry Itself...

Its Always been a sorta 'Closed-Shop' almost Secretive. You could go into any Injection-shop in UK and ask what rack-travel you'll need for a Standard pump versus delivery--And they'll look at you like scum!

Ive made pretty good friends with a local guy and its taken years to build up a friendship to the point he'll tell me all he knows.--Which is nice!

The FIE (Fuel Injection Equipment Makers) guard all pump details like you wouldnt believe! It goes down the chain to the Appointed Dealers (Bosch, Stanadyne Lucas et-al) these dealers are threatened with loss of the dealership if propriety info is 'leaked out'. Those who work for them may go on to open their own places, not appointed-dealers, but the same 'ethos' has been instilled into them over the years,--so they just Dont Talk about it, or impart any info.....

Goran and Tomnik are great enthusiasts. Goran has his own Injection-shop and all the equipment you would ever need. Tuning of IP's isnt his 'core' business I'm guessing--He does that because he loves it!

He shares his knowledge happily with the world as does Tomnik, This in my mind makes these guys really special and a cut above the 'closed-shops' such as Myna....

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - JustPassinThru - 03-28-2012

What Alastair E said! Hear hear!

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - dieselmerc - 03-28-2012

(03-28-2012, 11:16 AM)Alastair E I believe the Reason that guys like Myna are reticent about sharing info--Is the Industry Itself...

Its Always been a sorta 'Closed-Shop' almost Secretive. You could go into any Injection-shop in UK and ask what rack-travel you'll need for a Standard pump versus delivery--And they'll look at you like scum!

Ive made pretty good friends with a local guy and its taken years to build up a friendship to the point he'll tell me all he knows.--Which is nice!

The FIE (Fuel Injection Equipment Makers) guard all pump details like you wouldnt believe! It goes down the chain to the Appointed Dealers (Bosch, Stanadyne Lucas et-al) these dealers are threatened with loss of the dealership if propriety info is 'leaked out'. Those who work for them may go on to open their own places, not appointed-dealers, but the same 'ethos' has been instilled into them over the years,--so they just Dont Talk about it, or impart any info.....

Goran and Tomnik are great enthusiasts. Goran has his own Injection-shop and all the equipment you would ever need. Tuning of IP's isnt his 'core' business I'm guessing--He does that because he loves it!

He shares his knowledge happily with the world as does Tomnik, This in my mind makes these guys really special and a cut above the 'closed-shops' such as Myna....

I don´t think you have spoken with mynä, they say everything you want to know, but i would guess that they don´t share secrets of how they gets the juice out of the pump, but do I need to know that? I have no winning in knowing how they make their pumps, i just wanna know "how to use it" so to say. to tell your own little secrets you have to get more cc from the pump isn´t to clever because if outher copy your things and do it for less money they steal costumers and you loose money

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - dieselmeken - 03-28-2012

(03-28-2012, 12:29 PM)dieselmerc
(03-28-2012, 11:16 AM)Alastair E I believe the Reason that guys like Myna are reticent about sharing info--Is the Industry Itself...

Its Always been a sorta 'Closed-Shop' almost Secretive. You could go into any Injection-shop in UK and ask what rack-travel you'll need for a Standard pump versus delivery--And they'll look at you like scum!

Ive made pretty good friends with a local guy and its taken years to build up a friendship to the point he'll tell me all he knows.--Which is nice!

The FIE (Fuel Injection Equipment Makers) guard all pump details like you wouldnt believe! It goes down the chain to the Appointed Dealers (Bosch, Stanadyne Lucas et-al) these dealers are threatened with loss of the dealership if propriety info is 'leaked out'. Those who work for them may go on to open their own places, not appointed-dealers, but the same 'ethos' has been instilled into them over the years,--so they just Dont Talk about it, or impart any info.....

Goran and Tomnik are great enthusiasts. Goran has his own Injection-shop and all the equipment you would ever need. Tuning of IP's isnt his 'core' business I'm guessing--He does that because he loves it!

He shares his knowledge happily with the world as does Tomnik, This in my mind makes these guys really special and a cut above the 'closed-shops' such as Myna....
I don´t think you have spoken with mynä, they say everything you want to know, but i would guess that they don´t share secrets of how they gets the juice out of the pump, but do I need to know that? I have no winning in knowing how they make their pumps, i just wanna know "how to use it" so to say. to tell your own little secrets you have to get more cc from the pump isn´t to clever because if outher copy your things and do it for less money they steal costumers and you loose money

Thanks Alistar for those words, You are 100% correct, these tuned pumps is not the base in my workshop, Its the regular Deplhi, Bosch, Stanadyne, Denso, Zexel pumps, Inline & distributor pumps. The last 5 years the commonrailinjectors has been a common product to work with. I have so I can repair & test Bosch & Delphi CRI & CRIN, light & Heavy duty.
Tuning pump is about 5% of my turnover for a year, but its a challange everytime, I challange I like.
For me, after 35 years with dieselfuelinjectionpumps, mounting & timing a pump on a 1000hp V12 engine is no longer a challange, I know that it works

To design a 7,5 mm element that works, That is a challange and I gladley share it with those who have intrest in it. That is what this topic is about.
If you dont care, this is not the right forum for you, here on STD the intrest is a lot bigger around the work I do than in many forums in Scandinavia.
Regarding the "secrets" Mynä and other tuners have, I dont need them. I know how a pump works and I know what to do to make it work, Its all about having the right stuff to put in the pump, and how to get the stuff to work.
One question is, do the customer that write & phone me know how much fuel the really need? Answer is NO.
They have heard that mynä has 170cc, 8mm, 200cc+ etc and they want that althoug they cant burn it.
To burn that amount of fuel you need to build an engine EDH performance & Jeemu style, not many people that can manage that, its not enougt to just change pump & turbo to get 450-550hp even though most of people seems to think so.

A question to you all, do you know approximatly how many engine degrees it takes to push in 110 ccm of fuel from a 6 mm element at full rack(19mm)??
This is from when the element close the inlet port until injection stop, when port is open again.

Leave a guess.

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - erling66 - 03-28-2012

Here is a photo so people can see some of the parts that are involved

[Image: P3280002.jpg]

My guess is 40 degrees

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - Simpler=Better - 03-28-2012

I recognize 4 of those parts x_X

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - dieselmerc - 03-29-2012

(03-28-2012, 02:19 PM)dieselmeken
(03-28-2012, 12:29 PM)dieselmerc
(03-28-2012, 11:16 AM)Alastair E I believe the Reason that guys like Myna are reticent about sharing info--Is the Industry Itself...

Its Always been a sorta 'Closed-Shop' almost Secretive. You could go into any Injection-shop in UK and ask what rack-travel you'll need for a Standard pump versus delivery--And they'll look at you like scum!

Ive made pretty good friends with a local guy and its taken years to build up a friendship to the point he'll tell me all he knows.--Which is nice!

The FIE (Fuel Injection Equipment Makers) guard all pump details like you wouldnt believe! It goes down the chain to the Appointed Dealers (Bosch, Stanadyne Lucas et-al) these dealers are threatened with loss of the dealership if propriety info is 'leaked out'. Those who work for them may go on to open their own places, not appointed-dealers, but the same 'ethos' has been instilled into them over the years,--so they just Dont Talk about it, or impart any info.....

Goran and Tomnik are great enthusiasts. Goran has his own Injection-shop and all the equipment you would ever need. Tuning of IP's isnt his 'core' business I'm guessing--He does that because he loves it!

He shares his knowledge happily with the world as does Tomnik, This in my mind makes these guys really special and a cut above the 'closed-shops' such as Myna....
I don´t think you have spoken with mynä, they say everything you want to know, but i would guess that they don´t share secrets of how they gets the juice out of the pump, but do I need to know that? I have no winning in knowing how they make their pumps, i just wanna know "how to use it" so to say. to tell your own little secrets you have to get more cc from the pump isn´t to clever because if outher copy your things and do it for less money they steal costumers and you loose money
Thanks Alistar for those words, You are 100% correct, these tuned pumps is not the base in my workshop, Its the regular Deplhi, Bosch, Stanadyne, Denso, Zexel pumps, Inline & distributor pumps. The last 5 years the commonrailinjectors has been a common product to work with. I have so I can repair & test Bosch & Delphi CRI & CRIN, light & Heavy duty.
Tuning pump is about 5% of my turnover for a year, but its a challange everytime, I challange I like.
For me, after 35 years with dieselfuelinjectionpumps, mounting & timing a pump on a 1000hp V12 engine is no longer a challange, I know that it works

To design a 7,5 mm element that works, That is a challange and I gladley share it with those who have intrest in it. That is what this topic is about.
If you dont care, this is not the right forum for you, here on STD the intrest is a lot bigger around the work I do than in many forums in Scandinavia.
Regarding the "secrets" Mynä and other tuners have, I dont need them. I know how a pump works and I know what to do to make it work, Its all about having the right stuff to put in the pump, and how to get the stuff to work.
One question is, do the customer that write & phone me know how much fuel the really need? Answer is NO.
They have heard that mynä has 170cc, 8mm, 200cc+ etc and they want that althoug they cant burn it.
To burn that amount of fuel you need to build an engine EDH performance & Jeemu style, not many people that can manage that, its not enougt to just change pump & turbo to get 450-550hp even though most of people seems to think so.

A question to you all, do you know approximatly how many engine degrees it takes to push in 110 ccm of fuel from a 6 mm element at full rack(19mm)??
This is from when the element close the inlet port until injection stop, when port is open again.

Leave a guess.

I hear what you say, and can just say that you are right that most people don´t know how much diesel they need just know how much mynä is making and comparing it to everybody else. but I AM RIGHT when I say that the more diesel you put in the more power you get, test it your self, I have tested that with a plugged wg on a om603 with approx 120cc fuel the turbo got 2,2 bar, with 170cc it gave 3bar boost and that equaled aboat 80+hp,

the last thing you wrote there isn´t it why you should have the newer model camshaft when wanting high hp due to long injection time?

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - Alastair E - 03-29-2012

Dieselmerc...

With respect--You Also Need AIR to fully utilise that extra fuel!

Excess fuel over and above what can efficiently be burned will just give high EGT's, Huge Smoke, and Possible Engine damage which is cumulative.

Also, with the Quantity Injected, the Injection Duration is MOST important. Long periods of injection means last fuel is injected Too Late to be efficiently burned, so just goes to make Smoke, High EGT's etc and not more power--This is why a larger Element is needed for proper power gains--The smaller element may supply the same amount at a certain rack-position--But In a MUCH LONGER time/crank-angle in degrees, so Thats where it all 'goes wrong' for power gains....

No amount of Turbo Pressure will help this situation, as the crank has gone past the point where Max Pressure Should be developed, --Because the Injection Phase for the extra fuel with the small element is Too Long....

Modifying the Camshaft in the pump isnt such a great idea. Mainly due to the stresses involved. Yes--such cam alterations can be done--but the material the cam is made from is incredibly hard--It Needs to be for the fast rise-time--which even stock is practically a flat surface.
To modify or make new due to this is a very expensive proposition--And, Not really needed unless you make a dragster and a pump that needs new cams every 1000 miles!

A Properly Designed and sized Plunger and barrel (Element) will achieve the same--but better, as the stresses of cam/roller are kept within safe limits

tThis is what Goran and Tomnik are doing with their custom designed elements.

Goran--At a total Wild Guess with no reference to anything, 35 degrees--or thereabouts....(Too Long IMHO!)
--I'm Guessing that all injected should be completed under say--25 degrees or so....

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - dieselmerc - 03-29-2012

(03-29-2012, 10:19 AM)Alastair E Dieselmerc...

With respect--You Also Need AIR to fully utilise that extra fuel!

Modifying the Camshaft in the pump isnt such a great idea.

Yes i know you need air.... I wrote that the boost increases with more diesel, my point was that more diesel=more boost, if you only have diesel enough to get right mixture at 2bar you wont get much more boost, (don't know how to explain) hope you understand.

And I am not talking aboat regrinding cams, I am talking aboat that pumps with rs number over 172 has a "sharper" cam then the older, which will give shorter injection time and more power, I'm with you there that shorter injection time is wanted to burn it efficientely. You can clearely hear sharper knocking from pump (7mm) with newer camshaft vs older

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - tomnik - 03-29-2012

(03-29-2012, 04:46 PM)dieselmerc And I am not talking aboat regrinding cams, I am talking aboat that pumps with rs number over 172 has a "sharper" cam then the older, which will give shorter injection time and more power, I'm with you there that shorter injection time is wanted to burn it efficientely. You can clearely hear sharper knocking from pump (7mm) with newer camshaft vs older

given the same element diameter, can you explain how different cams can deliver different amount of fuel?
Total stroke is the same, delivery takes place while the plunger is passing the "working stroke". Volume of delivery is plunger area x stroke.
Could be the case that some dynamic things happen but how?
The only possible difference of the cams can be different plunger speed over stroke. But again, how can this deliver more fuel?

Harder knocking from shorter injection duration? If this is true I could only drive with ear plugs but my engine is quite smooth, except cold nailing for some seconds.

Tom

RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - dieselmerc - 03-30-2012

(03-29-2012, 11:59 PM)tomnik
(03-29-2012, 04:46 PM)dieselmerc And I am not talking aboat regrinding cams, I am talking aboat that pumps with rs number over 172 has a "sharper" cam then the older, which will give shorter injection time and more power, I'm with you there that shorter injection time is wanted to burn it efficientely. You can clearely hear sharper knocking from pump (7mm) with newer camshaft vs older

given the same element diameter, can you explain how different cams can deliver different amount of fuel?
Total stroke is the same, delivery takes place while the plunger is passing the "working stroke". Volume of delivery is plunger area x stroke.
Could be the case that some dynamic things happen but how?
The only possible difference of the cams can be different plunger speed over stroke. But again, how can this deliver more fuel?

Harder knocking from shorter injection duration? If this is true I could only drive with ear plugs but my engine is quite smooth, except cold nailing for some seconds.

Tom

not more fuel, faster injection or how you say it, when running mynäs 7mm on old vs new model cam you can hear sharper noise from newer model,
I am not an diesel pump maker just saying what i´ve been told, do you guys newer tested the newer vs older cam? or maybye you have and got a different result? tell me then