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+--- Thread: The Flyin Pumpkin! (/showthread.php?tid=1153)
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - ForcedInduction - 10-21-2010
(10-21-2010, 05:27 PM)Biohazard It still starts to run out of air (stock turbo) at higher rpm's
Time to find a 50 or 55 trim wheel from a 603.
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Captain America - 10-21-2010
I got a 60 trim wheel at 13-15lbs and at high rpm the thing goes super sonic and sounds like its over revving... but maybe its not? That's just what they do? How would you know? Bio, how do you know you're running out of air? Does boost start to fall off?
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Biohazard - 10-21-2010
(10-21-2010, 07:10 PM)Captain America I got a 60 trim wheel at 13-15lbs and at high rpm the thing goes super sonic and sounds like its over revving... but maybe its not? That's just what they do? How would you know? Bio, how do you know you're running out of air? Does boost start to fall off?
I'd love to find a 55 or 60 trim. Seems like everyone wants an arm and a leg for a used turbo though. Capt, where did you get your 60 trim upgrade? With the stock turbo, the boost starts falling off at higher rpm and it starts blowing a haze of black smoke. That was with the stock injection pump settings even. I had boost set at 14psi, by redline it was down to 12ish psi. My dads car has the Garrett/AiResearch turbo on it. I could use that for the upgrade, just swap him turbos. I know my KKK turbo will make some cool noises at higher rpm's, but I'm not sure if its the same noise as yours?
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Captain America - 10-21-2010
Ahh, you have the KKK. I have the Garrett. When I had the Garrett rebuilt I the shop that did it for me remachined the compressor housing for the larger compressor wheel. I needed a new turbine shaft anyway so the upgrade was only an additional. $50 bucks. The shop is called Performance Techniques down here in So Cal. Www.turbocharged.com they are a cool small shop, James knew what I was holding as soon as I walked in, "Mercedes Turbo?" Haha. My motor will never run out of air but the sound is crazy. The whistle gets higher with rpm until a point and it flattens out then gets quiet.
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Biohazard - 10-21-2010
Thanks Capt. I'm not sure if the Garrett is ready for a rebuild. If I'm going to spend that money, it's going to be for rebuilding the GT2256V on my toolbox.
With my stock turbo, it will start whistling as boost builds up, then I don't hear it much after I get into some RPM's. Thanks for the link on the turbo shop. I may have to get in touch with them for fixing the GT2256V. It's also going to need a turbine shaft. Didn't have much play, but most of the turbine blades are broken on the edges from something going through the turbo. The compressor wheel looks good at least!
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - willbhere4u - 12-15-2010
Biohazard your car is on speedhunters.com 1/2 down this page!
http://speedhunters.com/archive/tags/Haulers+_2600_amp_3B00_+Sedans/default.aspx
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - George3soccer - 12-16-2010
Looks good congrats.
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Biohazard - 12-16-2010
Haha! Yeah, I saw it a couple weeks ago or so. The Salt Flats are so fun... I need a vacation again!
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Biohazard - 12-17-2010
So awhile back I mentioned a mechanical ALDA to make sure it's getting full fuel at full throttle. I believe it was in Rudolph's skunkworks thread. So here is the first rough rendition of that. It is just a bar that is connected via a cable to the throttle arm on the inj pump.
[attachment=3944]
As the throttle is opened, the back of the throttle lever raises up and allows the arm to release tension on the rod that goes into the pump. I don't have any fuel milage comparisons because I'm now running shorter snow tires, plus my car has to idle for about forever to get warmed up before I'm driving it (side effect of low compression and copper headgasket). But, the milage doesn't seem to be much lower than it was last winter. It does however SEEM like it has better power, probably because it is dumping in more fuel at part throttle than before.
I'm also working on a VGT settup with full electronic control of the vanes. Part of the idea of the alda setup I have now is to seperate the boost and fueling to two seperate functions; i.e. not having additional fuel from additional boost. This way I can hopefully control the air/fuel ratio better via boost/air flow through the engine. Hopefully. We'll see.
I'll keep y'all updated. Work on the Pumpkin is slow, I'm between houses and living out of a suitcase waiting for a house deal to go through. 
Thankfully I have a friend with a room that isn't (wasn't) being used.
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - ForcedInduction - 12-18-2010
Whats the point? All you're doing is making the first 10% of the fuel range take more throttle movement to get, it will have zero effect on fuel mileage.
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Biohazard - 12-20-2010
(12-18-2010, 06:40 AM)ForcedInduction Whats the point? All you're doing is making the first 10% of the fuel range take more throttle movement to get, it will have zero effect on fuel mileage.
Actually, its putting in more fuel sooner. The rack travel is excactly the same, but now the alda starts lifting (injecting more fuel) as soon as the throttle moves instead of waiting for boost. The point to is it this: I'm going to try to control my turbo vanes referenced to O2 sensor readings. If the factory alda was in place, with more boost comes more fuel, to a certain point of course. I'm trying to make it where I can control boost seperately to maintain 20:1 AFR.
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - ForcedInduction - 12-20-2010
(12-20-2010, 09:45 AM)Biohazard The rack travel is excactly the same, but now the alda starts lifting (injecting more fuel) as soon as the throttle moves instead of waiting for boost.Again, zero effect and identical operation as having no alda at all.
Quote:I'm trying to make it where I can control boost seperately to maintain 20:1 AFR.A mechanical linkage will not do that.
You should reinstall the alda and use a solenoid valve to modulate boost pressure the alda sees. Since you'll obviously be using electronics to control the turbo, adding that to the programming would be trivial compared to turbo control.
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Biohazard - 12-20-2010
Not quite like having no ALDA. With no alda, its all enrichment all the time. With this setup, it ramps up the enrichment based on throttle travel, with full enrichment at about 2/3 throttle. This allows me to turn the enrichment way down at idle and low throttle, which my engine is happier with due to lowered compression ratio.
You say it would be trivial to add a solenoid to modulate boost, but I'm still very new at programming stuff. I'm still having a hard time learning to programing, but am making slooow progress.
That may end up being something that gets added in, but for now, this is working fine for my needs.
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - ForcedInduction - 12-20-2010
(12-20-2010, 10:27 AM)Biohazard Not quite like having no ALDA. With no alda, its all enrichment all the time. With this setup, it ramps up the enrichment based on throttle travel, with full enrichment at about 2/3 throttle.Again, that makes zero difference to performance or fuel economy. You can still mash the throttle and make smoke. An ALDA limits fuel quantity no matter the throttle until boost builds. As said before, all you've done is change the throttle:fuel curve without any connection to boost or A/F ratio.
Quote:This allows me to turn the enrichment way down at idle and low throttle, which my engine is happier with due to lowered compression ratio.Reducing the idle speed and going easy on the throttle does the exact same thing.
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Biohazard - 12-20-2010
(12-20-2010, 10:48 AM)ForcedInduction [quote='Biohazard' pid='22115' dateline='1292858862']"Again, that makes zero difference to performance or fuel economy. You can still mash the throttle and make smoke. An ALDA limits fuel quantity no matter the throttle until boost builds. As said before, all you've done is change the throttle:fuel curve without any connection to boost or A/F ratio."
Not quite like having no ALDA. With no alda, its all enrichment all the time. With this setup, it ramps up the enrichment based on throttle travel, with full enrichment at about 2/3 throttle.
Changing the throttle:fuel curve w/o any connection to boost is exactly what I was aiming for. I want 'X' amount of fuel at 'Y'% throttle, then use the electronics to control amount of airflow through the engine to maintain ~20:1 AFR.
As far as fuel economy goes... screw the fuel economy. The car gets decent enough milage. I'm not trying to get to 40mpg, thats not the point of this project. If I gain or lose a mpg or two, I'm not going to lose any sleep about it.
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - ForcedInduction - 12-21-2010
(12-20-2010, 11:15 AM)Biohazard Changing the throttle:fuel curve w/o any connection to boost is exactly what I was aiming for. I want 'X' amount of fuel at 'Y'% throttle, then use the electronics to control amount of airflow through the engine to maintain ~20:1 AFR.So...programming for a parabolic curve is easier than programming for a linear pitch curve?
Quote:As far as fuel economy goes... screw the fuel economy. The car gets decent enough milage.My 300D gets middle of the road average economy for these cars despite the injection pump having no provision for an ALDA.
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - 300D50 - 12-21-2010
Go full hog, use an electric pump!
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Biohazard - 04-05-2011
So work on the car has been lacking recently. I'm still waiting on a house deal to close so I can have a garage again. But, in the meantime, I had a set of header flanges made! My Dad and I are building a header to mount the VNT turbo on his W123. Could've probably just made an adapter plate, but naaahhh!! This is way more fun!
Here is the backside. We had to trim the lower left corner in the picture to clear the timing chain tensioner mount, but other than that it fits perfectly. Once the pipes are welded in, I'll add in a piece of plate to seperate the paired exhaust ports.
[attachment=4317]
Here is the front side with the SCH40 90 degree bends tacked into place.
[attachment=4318]
So thats it for the turbo header for now. My Dad is going to work on it more this week and then more welding this weekend hopefully.
So my brother, C12H23, sold the 300D and picked up a 83 240D 4 speed in its place. The car is all and all in really clean shape. He swapped over the non-egr intake off my 77 240D project car and got some tune-up stuff done. The car is a bit slow though... So while I was rumaging through a junk yard, I found chevy small block header. Hmmm... a little measuring later and it came home with me. The exhaust pattern is pretty close to the 240D pattern.
[attachment=4319]
We're going to cut off the chevy flange, add about 5-6 inches of straight to space it off the starter and all that and see about mounting this bad boy to his 240D!
Wont be a ton of power, but so what! He'll have a cool looking header at least!
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Captain America - 04-05-2011
Haha that's crazy how the header fits!!!
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Biohazard - 04-26-2011
Here is some more progress on the turbo header. I hope the picture turns out ok, I had to resize it twice.
[attachment=4464]
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - willbhere4u - 04-26-2011
With a header like that Its asking for a supercharger!
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - 300D50 - 04-26-2011
I might be able to part with an M90 in good shape...
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - mike-81-240d - 04-26-2011
You should come down to Portland on Saturday.
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Biohazard - 04-27-2011
I want to, but I have a bunch of other stuff I need to get done. I only have Saturday off this week, and too much on the to-do list, otherwise, I'd be there for sure!
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Biohazard - 05-15-2011
So I got the Uber 7.5 M-Pump from Rudlolf and got it on a couple days ago, but it didn't feel 'right'. Rechecked my timing tonight and turns out it was retarded by about 8 degrees!
So, I pulled the pump again tonight and reset it to stock 24 BTDC. It feels better, but not quite 'right' yet. More tinkering to come! It also nails like a champ, but it did that with the timing way retarded also. ??? Could be my low compression, but not 100% convinced yet. Think I'm gonna advance it another 2 degrees and see how it does.So it was dark when I was driving around after reseting the timing and I had to merge on the highway and, you know, test the settings. Holy crap! 25psi right NOW and I couldn't see the headlights behind me anymore!! Bwahahaha!!! Holy crap this is going to be fun when I get the timing perfected! More updates as I get time!
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Captain America - 05-16-2011
Sweet man. I was at his house right after he shipped that thing to you. How are you timing it, What method? I'd go 26 for sure, and if drip timing maybe even more like 28...
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Biohazard - 05-16-2011
Drip method. Yeah, I need to try 26 and see how that feels. Oh, also going to be doing the glow plug relay mod. I've found it is much quieter warming up at idle if I keep cycling the key making the glow plugs stay on!
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Captain America - 05-16-2011
Ahhh, Yeah I read that you could go a couple degrees further advanced when timing by drip method because it wasn't as accurate. You dont get perfect start of injection or some BS... Lol I don't remember exactly.
You going for after glow or just rewiring so the GP light stays on whenever the relay is on?
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - willbhere4u - 05-16-2011
bad ass Videos please!
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Captain America - 05-16-2011
(05-16-2011, 02:00 PM)willbhere4u bad ass Videos please!
Wow we must have missed each other by seconds!
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Biohazard - 05-16-2011
^^^ LOL
I don't have daylight time off again until Wed (aka working dark to dark), I'll take some video though if I can! Rewiring for both the glowplug light on whenever the glowplugs are on, and also full control of glowplugs being on.
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Biohazard - 05-20-2011
Turns out I don't have good video taking quality yet. I'll have to work on that. I spent Wednesday morning modding my glow plug relay. Now the glow plug light is on whenever the glowplugs are on. I rarely use my rear window defroster, even in the dead of winter. So, I used the rear window defroster and relay (built in timer!) to activate the glowplugs. Also gives me a secondary light for showing glowplugs on. With the car cold and warming up, it is much quieter with the glowplugs staying on and seems to warm up just a bit quicker.
After messing with trying to get the drip timing set accurately, I got fed up. There is too much room for error in my opinion. So I got one of these...
[attachment=4626]
and verified timing on my dads car. It is a 300D with a stock turbo engine. Using this adaptor and my timing light, his timing came in at 13.5 BTDC. I was able to check his timing, and reset my timing to 15 BTDC in about 15-20 minutes total!
Using the drip method, I was still off by about 8 degrees on my car. I drove the car home and back from my dads house (40 miles +/-) after resetting to 15 BTDC. Had good power, but still some decent nailing, so I moved it to 14 BTDC last night. Didn't notice much difference on the nailing, so I think I'm going to leave it there for a while. Next up on the list of things to do is boost control. I don't have any and need some badly. I can hit 25psi if I don't modulate the throttle correctly. But thats no good because I get flutter/surge at about 20 psi!
So, back to the hardware store to make a boost controler. Hopefully that will be my lunch break mission!
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Captain America - 05-20-2011
Whoa Whoa! Can you explain the Glow plug/window defrost mod? That's a great idea! I'd probly use a little toggle to select between defrost and GP operation.
Got a link to that tool? Why is the timing so low on both cars? Am I missing something?
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Biohazard - 05-20-2011
I used the glow plug mod that So&So had put up a while back, it's still floating around somewhere. I just spliced the 2.5mm solid black wire (Wire strand size, roughly 14AWG? There is also a Black/Red large wire that is power feed into the relay.) coming from the rear defrost relay/timer in the fuse box to the violet wire that goes into the glow plug relay 4 pin connector. My rear window defrost never worked worth a crap, so I'm not worried about it not working. I could have skipped the glow plug light mod that you did on yours also. I really didn't need to do that one, the rear defrost light stays on anytime the glowplugs are on now too. I'm really not a big fan of aftermarket toggle switches being tacked onto my dash (even though there are currently two there...) so I decided to use one of my unused factory switches. It was just very convenient having the built in timer on the defrost relay. Now I can't accidently leave my glow plugs on for too long.
For the timing being way different, that is from the way it reads the timing. The drip timing slows to once a second when the fill port is just closing at the begining of the injection cycle, about 24 deg BTDC. The timing light adapter picks up the pulse of fuel going through the line and sends the signal to fire the timing light as the fuel is passing the clamp. It works out to about 10 crank degrees difference.
If you google 'Ferret 765 diesel timing adapter' you will find a bunch of info on it. I got mine here:
http://www.tooldiscounter.com/ItemDisplay.cfm?lookup=FERV765-03
and the 6.0mm clamp it comes with is the one you want. You are supposed to verify mechanical timing to get a baseline before using the timing light. I have NOT drip timed my dads car, but I do know it is bone stock, starts like a champ and runs great all the time. I also did a bit of research, and found others that have used this on a mercedes 300SD. They had the same timing using the timing light adaptor that my dads car has using the adaptor.
Edit: added better wiring description.
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Captain America - 05-21-2011
Gotcha!
I dont have the switches on the dash..... I put my toggles in the side of the center counsel, they are right next to my leg, easy to get to, and out of sight (no clutter on dash) plus there is tons of room under the window switches for all the wiring and such...
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Biohazard - 06-21-2011
Timing seems to be set pretty happy right now. It's advanced about 1 degree from stock. I've sent my spare Garrett turbo off for the rebuilding and installing the 60 trim wheel! REAALLLY looking forward to getting that back! The T3/TO4E is just too big. It's laggy on the 617 and the compressor is just too big to flow correctly for this engine. Also, my water pump (for the intercooler) took a crap and leaked out all my IC coolant. So, I'm going to redo the system and add in more volume, along with a Bosch pump for a Mustang Cobra. All said, I hope to have just under 3 gallons of capacity for the intercooler system.
When I swapped on the M Pump, I lengthened the stock oiling line to fit to the side of the MW pump. Well, that line blew at 60mph on the highway during my lunch break a couple weeks ago. Thankfully I caught it in time, and only lost about 2-3 qts. I've now had a braided steel line made that wont pop like the thick rubber hose did. Now, I am considering making braided line for the fuel lines from the lift pump to the injection pump so that they match! That one line looks really good! Now the other lines look like crap.
Once I get unpacked, I gotta look for my braided line stuff and see what I have. I'm still looking for some thinner sealing rings for the prechambers, I started a new thread on that one in General Maint. If you have some ideas, I'm all ears!
I'll report back more later. I'm finally getting moved into my new house and will be making more steady progress on project cars. I can't wait to get that 240D on the road with a hot 617 in it!!
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Biohazard - 07-22-2011
New updates. Got the 60 trim T3 back and installed. Got a manual boost controller hooked up. Still messing with the boost settings, currently at about 20 psi. This turbo makes great noises! Finally getting my intercooler back together. Got it replumbed tonight, should hold about two gallons. That's one gallon less than I wanted, but then again this car is for r&d.
Need to finish wiring in the pump and then fillerup! Going to give it a good hard drive over the pass and see how it holds up. Also going to recheck the timing using the air bubble method that Hercules mentioned. It worked great on my brothers car, going to see what it says for mine. Still waiting for a couple different boxes of goodies to show up. New prechamber sealing rings and a collar tool. Can't wait to get those put in! Looking forward to meeting some of you at the Get Together down in Oregon in a couple weeks too!
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - mike-81-240d - 07-22-2011
(07-22-2011, 12:17 AM)Biohazard Looking forward to meeting some of you at the Get Together down in Oregon in a couple weeks too!
Werd
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Captain America - 07-22-2011
It would be very interesting to see if drip timing and bubble timing report a different amount of advance!
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Biohazard - 07-22-2011
That would be interesting. Stupid thing is I cant seem to get a good repeatable reading doing the drip timing. I did the bubble timing on my brothers car on Wed, was super easy. I've been thinking of checking mine again with bubbles and with trying to do the drip timing again.
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Biohazard - 08-09-2011
I got the thicker set of sealing rings in that Walt made. They sealed up perfectly the first time, I sprayed them with a thin coat of copper gasket sealer. Also got the intercooler hooked up again, EGT's have stayed below 900f now! Reset the timing to stock also. Still had smoking and nailing that is driving me nuts. I swapped in my Monark 265 injectors again tonight and some of the nailing it gone, smoke too. Once I get back from vacation I'm going to try the thinner set of sealing rings as well. I tried to post pictures, seems they are too big. Il try again later. Overall, still pretty happy with the car!
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - 300D50 - 08-09-2011
Glad they sealed up!
Will be interesting to see what they look like once removed.
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Biohazard - 08-11-2011
I'll let you know in a month or so.
Quick update, smoking is much less now with the 265 nozzles and stock timing, unless I bury my right foot, then its more black smoke than before. Good times!
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Biohazard - 09-06-2011
I swapped in the 1.15mm sealing rings the other day. The 1.25 rings still looked good so I saved 4 of them. I buggered one of them up pulling it apart. The copper sealing spray works like a champ, just needs a light coat. It doesn't nail as bad as it did, but it IS still nailing. So, I'm going to swap a stock head gasket back in and get rid of the nailing.
The thick headgasket works fine if you're under load, but off load and just getting into throttle there is a large amount of nailing and sounding like something is trying to come apart. If I was building a 617 for racing, or running a supercharger, I would keep the thick headgasket, but for street use, the stock headgaskt seems the way to run.
Thanks for making those sealing rings, Walt!! I'm going to keep the rings I have and my spare copper gasket in case I get a wild hair and decide to build a race 617 or put on a supercharger that makes boost at idle.
I'll update again when I get the stock headgasket in.
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - mike-81-240d - 09-18-2011
Glad to see your still tinkering.
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - JustPassinThru - 09-18-2011
Thanks very much for updating us!
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Captain America - 09-19-2011
Yes! I was wondering how this thing runs with the super pump....
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Biohazard - 09-21-2011
Runs petty good! Been stupid busy lately, not much time for anything. Actually it runs strong enough that my trans is slipping when shifting. There WILL be dyno action after swapping this engine into my new donar car.
Swapping stock head gasket in this weekend, stay tuned!
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - Biohazard - 09-22-2011
Your days are numbered, Pumpkin. There is a younger sexier car in the wings.
Numbered!
RE: The Flyin Pumpkin! - mike-81-240d - 09-23-2011
Hey bio how much for all the trans gear from the 77? PM me.