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+--- Thread: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements (/showthread.php?tid=1356)
5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - DervTuning - 05-12-2010
The super pump lives! For further testing of the bench settings on the pump, it is highly desirable to fit the pump to an engine to get dynamic qualitative, and quantitative feedback. The goal is to have a perfectly setup pump, with optimal delivery and response characteristics. This ensures that once the customer gets the pump, it is simply a plug and play situation. All fun, and no problems!
Therefore, I installed the super pump onto the engine in the 85 w123 that is running an authentic Garrett, basically full T4 turbo (compressor and turbine wheels, with a t3 inlet on the turbine housing), a 3" diameter downpipe, and water injection, for an evaluation of idle response, as well as other key parameters for performance. This is in the case that something needs attention, the pump can be fitted back to the bench for adjustments before being shipped out.
The results are in; the engine has never idled so well! Totally smooth, and driving at low speeds, the tip in response was excellent, with no issues with surging or other strange effects. Immediately, the effect of more fuel delivery, as well as faster delivery was observed, whilst driving a usual route.
Subsequently, merging onto the freeway, a wholly different beast was unleashed under the hood, with power like never before. Before I knew it, I was just over the speed I normally would drive at, just an ultra smooth flow of power coupled with fine sounds as the turbo responded. Very, very impressive! After a quick systems check, and a clear space in front of me, the transmission was placed into 3rd @ 65mph, yielding near 4K rpms and the throttle depressed; instantly, the boost shot up to ~30psi, as well as the EGTs which stabilized as the boost kicked in, and then wheelspin occurred! Incredible! This is not a small turbo either, but I've never seen it respond so well compared to other platforms I've tried the same turbo in (gas engines).
It should be noted that prior to the super pump install, with the stock MW adjusted to it's maximum, I was getting ~10 psi max.
I will be able to resume testing later in the day, and if everything goes as well as it has, the super pump will be shipped out straightaway!
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - GREASY_BEAST - 05-12-2010
EXCELLENT news DervTuning!!!
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - Jtn190D - 05-12-2010
Awesome!!!! Can't wait to get one.
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - Rudolf_Diesel - 05-12-2010
It's all mine!!!!!
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - winmutt - 05-12-2010
We want 0-60 times! This thread is worthless without a video! Its like reading text porn
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - DervTuning - 05-12-2010
I will get some photos, and a video or two
(05-12-2010, 11:56 AM)winmutt We want 0-60 times! This thread is worthless without a video! Its like reading text porn
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - George3soccer - 05-12-2010
Awsome Dervtuning, can not wait for this.
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - yankneck696 - 05-12-2010
Stiffy !!!!!!!!
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - mbenzo300td - 05-12-2010
DervTuning. Is this something you done yourself? If so are you also Tuning om603 pumps as well? This sounds amazing, keep us posted.
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - DeliveryValve - 05-12-2010
Congratulations DervTuning, tomnik and Rudolf_Diesel, truly awesome! Can't wait to see this thing in action!
.
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - Biohazard - 05-12-2010
THIS is the news I've been anxious to hear! I'm grinnin ear to ear reading this thread!
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - jonbobshinigin - 05-13-2010
Ok ok...Let's move on to the MW/OM603 pump now can we???? Haha, thanks, great work!
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - DervTuning - 05-13-2010
The sound worked fine on all my computers, but when uploaded to youtube, it garbled the audio
. It is too bad, as the engine sounds so mean now I will try to fix it somehow tonight.Also, I found out after I did the videos that the water injection nozzle was 100% clogged. So, I made my own nozzle, that flows about 2 to 3 times as much per given unit of time, yet atomizes better than before. The car is even faster now as a result! I am going to take more videos when the roads dry up; lots of strong thunderstorms about the area...
Here you go:
0-60 run
Free Revving
Idle and rev
Smooth idle
We can do all types of pumps used on just about any Mercedes, including the electronic pumps found on the w210 chassis with the OM606 engines.
Thanks for the compliments
A lot of hard work went into this project, and look for more fun once the pump gets shipped off (05-12-2010, 11:56 AM)winmutt We want 0-60 times! This thread is worthless without a video! Its like reading text porn
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - Biohazard - 05-13-2010
Watchguard Proxy at work = no video watching till I get home.
This day had better go by fast! I'm now anxiously awaiting my pump! New turbo is on... need more fuel...
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - tantank79 - 05-13-2010
If I'm seeing the video correctly, that looks like 0-60 in 8 seconds.
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - 300SD81 - 05-13-2010
(05-13-2010, 10:35 AM)Biohazard Watchguard Proxy at work = no video watching till I get home.
proxy.org
I had one set up on my own secure server back when I was in highschool.
Videos look sweet!
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - Alastair E - 05-13-2010
(05-12-2010, 04:11 PM)mbenzo300td DervTuning. Is this something you done yourself? If so are you also Tuning om603 pumps as well? This sounds amazing, keep us posted.
OM.602 and OM.603 have a similar pump, Namely,an 'M' (PES.5 or 6 M. RS320.xxx) type Bosch pump as opposed to the OM.617 that 'generally' in USA market has the 'MW' (PES.5.MW.R?) type pump
Euro OM.617.912 has 'Generally' an 'M' type.
What has been done here is a 'Euro M' type has been modded using Tomnik's M75 (7.5mm) Floyd Elements, (Originals are 5.5mm) and set up to run correctly on a proper Test-Bench-
-This is summit that can Only be done by someone who knows what they are doing using the developed by Tomnik and I believe 'DervTuning' Test-Plan and has a Test-Bench for driving the pump and setting up the Governor and the elements.
But to answer your original question, the same type elements can be fitted to your original OM.603 'M' type injection-pump, but you would Have to send the pump to the guy who did this one and specify exactly what you're looking for performance wise and what other mods you expect to do either down the road or at the same time as the pump mod.....
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - Biohazard - 05-13-2010
Request denied by WatchGuard HTTP proxy.
Reason: one or more categories denied helper='WebBlocker.Standard' details='local-exception'
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Method: GET
Host: www.proxy.org
Path: /
proxy.org
I had one set up on my own secure server back when I was in highschool.
Sonofa... turns out the proxy is proxy blocked.
Hahaha 
I'll be checking out those video's just as soon as I get home! Today is going pretty quickly so far.
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - winmutt - 05-13-2010
(05-13-2010, 11:32 AM)tantank79 If I'm seeing the video correctly, that looks like 0-60 in 8 seconds.
Even with a ~1sec flare in third! Bad ass.
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - Biohazard - 05-13-2010
I can finally see the video!! That is amazing! Thats too bad the audio didn't work out, hope you can get that figured out. I can hardly wait to get my pump too! I love that you had to lift at 45 due to wheel spin...
Keep up the great work, DervTuning & Tomnik! Well, Rudolf, looks like you have some fun work ahead of you! We're all looking forward to your updates as well.
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - mbenzo300td - 05-13-2010
(But to answer your original question, the same type elements can be fitted to your original OM.603 'M' type injection-pump, but you would Have to send the pump to the guy who did this one and specify exactly what you're looking for performance wise and what other mods you expect to do either down the road or at the same time as the pump mod.....)
Sweet. Where do i send it and how much will it cost?
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - George3soccer - 05-13-2010
Got to wait in line my friend.
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - jonbobshinigin - 05-14-2010
It looked more like 7 seconds to me...Also, this is being done here in the US right? I thought that was the original idea with Derv and Tom, but then I read something that indicated otherwise.
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - Rudolf_Diesel - 05-14-2010
(05-14-2010, 12:32 AM)jonbobshinigin It looked more like 7 seconds to me...Also, this is being done here in the US right? I thought that was the original idea with Derv and Tom, but then I read something that indicated otherwise.
This is a joint effort between Tom and DervTuning...I just happen to the first in line with the M-pump. The elements are from Tom and he is in Germany - DervTuning is in Maryland.
As soon as I get the car up and running, which could be a few weeks due to the extensive list of things to do ,I will definitely post some videos of the same.
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - ForcedInduction - 05-14-2010
What cost are we looking at?
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - Rudolf_Diesel - 05-14-2010
(05-14-2010, 05:48 AM)ForcedInduction What cost are we looking at?
You will have to talk to Dervtuning to find that out - I am verboten from discussing the details...
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - tomnik - 05-14-2010
(05-14-2010, 05:48 AM)ForcedInduction What cost are we looking at?
Peanuts, regarding what will turn out if the small rest of the job will do well.
Jokin', 60 Eur/element from my side.
Contact Derv for the swap and set up.
and even mini peanuts compared to the beautiful engine of Rudolf.
Tom
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - willbhere4u - 05-14-2010
could a om616 pump be tuned up?
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - jonbobshinigin - 05-14-2010
Tom, any discount for quantity, pre-pay, or combined shipping?
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - tomnik - 05-15-2010
(05-14-2010, 10:08 PM)jonbobshinigin Tom, any discount for quantity, pre-pay, or combined shipping?
60 EUR is the pick up price.
Quantity: custom declaration!
Pre-pay: anyway
shipping: to be paid by the one who orders
To be honest, I am private not a shop, the elements came out of the hobby.
But to get anything at all I had to order more elements that I could ever use. This is the only reason why I am willing to sell them, not to make profit more to get back my money. Next, check the quality of these elements and tell me what you want to pay.
Tom
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - Biohazard - 05-15-2010
(05-14-2010, 07:27 PM)willbhere4u could a om616 pump be tuned up?
Personaly, I would love to see someone do this! Especially with the older turbo kit, or a modern version of it. I've got a spare 616 engine sitting in my project car. It's currently just being ballast until the 617 goes in.
My Dad, my brother, and I have kicked around the idea of swapping the 616 into an older mini-truck or even an old hotrod for bombing around in, but the list of current projects places that squarely into next decade. Although... now you got me thinking of swapping the 616 into my track roadster project... it would be lighter than the currently planned 617... 
Heh, too many projects in front of that one for now. Need to crank up the pump in the Pumpkin and re-dyno with the bigger turbo, need to build a bigger exhaust for it, elec radiator fans, and then it's ready for the MW pump with 6.5 elements. I'm waiting at top speed for that one. Well, I'm off to the man-cave to work on the Pumpkin. Need to get it ready for more fuel.
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - Alastair E - 05-15-2010
(05-15-2010, 01:15 PM)Biohazard(05-14-2010, 07:27 PM)willbhere4u could a om616 pump be tuned up?
Personaly, I would love to see someone do this! Especially with the older turbo kit, or a modern version of it. I've got a spare 616 engine sitting in my project car. It's currently just being ballast until the 617 goes in.
Does your 616 have the 'M' type or the MW type....?
IF M then yes, you go 7.5 Floyd, if MW then 6.5 is your way forward.
Doesnt Matter What the Pump is OFF, just matters What Type, (M or MW) It actually IS!
(I got 616 M type in the corner of kitchen floor at the mo!)
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - garage - 05-15-2010
(05-15-2010, 04:37 PM)Alastair E(05-15-2010, 01:15 PM)Biohazard(05-14-2010, 07:27 PM)willbhere4u could a om616 pump be tuned up?
Personaly, I would love to see someone do this! Especially with the older turbo kit, or a modern version of it. I've got a spare 616 engine sitting in my project car. It's currently just being ballast until the 617 goes in.
Does your 616 have the 'M' type or the MW type....?
IF M then yes, you go 7.5 Floyd, if MW then 6.5 is your way forward.
Doesnt Matter What the Pump is OFF, just matters What Type, (M or MW) It actually IS!
(I got 616 M type in the corner of kitchen floor at the mo!)
What is the proper way to go about finding out if its an M or MW pump that is on the car?
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - E300TSC - 05-15-2010
Look at the delivery valve holders. Splined shafts are M, flanges with 2 bolts are MW.
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - JB3 - 05-15-2010
(05-15-2010, 08:32 PM)E300TSC Look at the delivery valve holders. Splined shafts are M, flanges with 2 bolts are MW.
This would be the same way to look for the 5cyl pump as well?
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - willbhere4u - 05-15-2010
That's good info so theoretically the M with 7.5 is capable of more power but the MW with 6.5 should still make good power
I've got all of the parts in my garage to build an om616 I was planing on rebuilding my spare 616 with new liners and rings and bearings with the om617 turbo rods/pistons If I can find a shop to mod the block for the squirters then port the head a little fresh valve job and seals mabey a cam grind and pump!
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - Biohazard - 05-16-2010
Do it! I've got a spare head that's ported (617 head). Thats waiting it's turn for install on my engine, along with slightly lowering compression to about 18:1. I had a cam reground also, that goes in with the head install. All in good time...
A buddy I was deployed with in Bosnia took both the heads off his 6.2L chevy utility truck and ported them in the tent at night, using the power from the generator. I don't remember if he messed with the pump or not, but holy crap that damn truck had some scoot to it! It lasted about 3 months and then he blew the engine. I'm pretty sure he was messing with the pump at that point, but he was on a different base by then also so I wasn't able to witness like the porting!
It's amazing how much difference a little gasket matching can do for waking up an engine.
Edit: My 616 has the MW pump on it.
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - Rudolf_Diesel - 05-19-2010
Here are a couple of more videos - sound is good, but pic qaulity is not, enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvmO58hswFk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPuBVwaFgDo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eil0OBxlf-A
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - winmutt - 05-19-2010
* winmutt waits patiently for the bottom to fall out of the euro...
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - Rudolf_Diesel - 05-19-2010
(05-19-2010, 08:48 AM)winmutt * winmutt waits patiently for the bottom to fall out of the euro...
I know what you mean buddy!
Fortunately the next phase of the project is all available in the USA...
A Tremec TKO 500 5-speed transmission...more deatils and a seperate thread to follow.
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - DervTuning - 05-19-2010
Get the 600, it is only about $100 more, and you might need it...
0-60 with water injection on
FMIC install soon...
The pump used on the om616 should be no problem to fit larger elements. In addition, any of the electronic pumps used on the 606 or 605 (etc) can be fitted with larger elements, and tuned as well.
Considering the massive power increase from a pump swap, and a turbo, the dollars to performance ratio is excellent. Indeed, Tom has it right, it costs peanuts, all things considered
(05-19-2010, 09:12 AM)Rudolf_Diesel(05-19-2010, 08:48 AM)winmutt * winmutt waits patiently for the bottom to fall out of the euro...
I know what you mean buddy!
Fortunately the next phase of the project is all available in the USA...
A Tremec TKO 500 5-speed transmission...more deatils and a seperate thread to follow.
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - meareweird - 05-19-2010
how much for an mpump for 602 engine?
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - Alastair E - 05-19-2010
(05-19-2010, 02:08 PM)meareweird how much for an mpump for 602 engine?
Assuming Turbo 602 engine...?
Parts from Tomnik in Germany are 60 eur each, shipping/customs etc extra,--You'll need 5.
Contact Derv Tuning direct for fitting to Your pump and setting up. Not possible to swap these parts yourself....
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - shredator - 05-19-2010
What is the timing set at? Stock injectors?
looks like fun...
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - DervTuning - 05-20-2010
The timing is set at 25 degrees, and the injectors are the stock, original bits.
It is a whole different car now
Even driving to get groceries is totally civil, with zero drawbacks. I shall soon be able to report the fuel usage, but thus far, the fuel lamp has not illuminated with about 500 miles driven (about 40 miles of that was with the MW, plus lots of (collected in a pan) leaking when swapping the MW to M pumps
). I continue to be impressed! (05-19-2010, 08:44 PM)shredator What is the timing set at? Stock injectors?
looks like fun...
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - jeemu - 05-20-2010
How much engine revs and what rpm pump stop increacing fuel?
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - DervTuning - 05-24-2010
Very good question. I will try to find out what it is, dynamically, while the pump is on the car.
Thus far from the videos, it looks like I have not taken it much past 5K rpms. The stock cam seems allow for the rpms with the power increasing all the way to the shift point. I have not felt the power drop off at all.
It is hard to follow since everything occurs so quickly now. The latest video revealed to me the rpms, as I am usually trying to monitor the EGT's as well as the road!
I also filled up the tank as the low fuel indicator lamp just started to illuminate on and off. At 545 miles, I filled the tank to ~18 gallons (it was something like 17.95 gallons). Not bad, especially since this was a test tank that I pushed the car on just about every occasion I was able to, and included the requisite grocery getting as well as commuting.
(05-20-2010, 03:41 PM)jeemu How much engine revs and what rpm pump stop increacing fuel?
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - winmutt - 05-24-2010
(05-24-2010, 10:50 AM)DervTuning I also filled up the tank as the low fuel indicator lamp just started to illuminate on and off. At 545 miles, I filled the tank to ~18 gallons (it was something like 17.95 gallons). Not bad, especially since this was a test tank that I pushed the car on just about every occasion I was able to, and included the requisite grocery getting as well as commuting.
Are you going to be able to but another tank through? I'd love to hear that number stay true, helps justify the $ to my accountant (wife).
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - jonbobshinigin - 06-01-2010
I know I have seen this addressed briefly before but: What would something like this look like on a NA (Naturally Aspirated) 617?
RE: 5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements - tomnik - 06-02-2010
to be honest, not too exciting up to now.
I made an IP and my friend is running it in his n/a.
First thing was that the car smoked a lot and was nailing (in combination with power loss) beyond let's say 3500-4000 rpm and pedal depressed. Then we decreased the full load and everything was perfect. No power gain at low rpm but beyond 3000 the engine climbed up to 5400 like hell. He has the 3.8?? rear end and top speed is limited by rpm max.
Now this lazy bone is not able for weeks now to play with timing. Actually the timing is set at 8 deg before TDC! This was how it came up when he installed the IP. In my opinion this is far too late but he can't find the time to change it.
Also those are the rest of the 7mm crap elements I had sitting around where we took the 5 best for the IP.
I will up date the progress as soon as he gets further.
Tom
(06-01-2010, 09:31 PM)jonbobshinigin I know I have seen this addressed briefly before but: What would something like this look like on a NA (Naturally Aspirated) 617?