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+--- Thread: Piston oil jets on a 616? (/showthread.php?tid=1483)
Piston oil jets on a 616? - JB3 - 07-09-2010
Just thinking out loud, basically im curious what all the exact physical differences between the 616/617 and 617 turbo oiling apparatus are.
Specifically, Im wondering if one was willing to break the motor down far enough, if its possible to take the oil jets out of a turbo and put them in a 4cyl or 5cyl NA, giving you the same added lubrication and making the engine capable of handling a turbo without any possible longevity compromises.
Are there additional changes to the block as far as machined oil passages? or is it a bolt on change that could theoretically be moved to a different motor?
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - willbhere4u - 07-09-2010
I have a set of 4 oil squirters from a 617 turbo I also have a set of turbo rods and pistons I had the same thought in mind for my 240d turbo 616
I've been told the block should be machinable for the squirters
There is a difference between the oil pumps as well! And the turbo 617 engine had a hardened crankshaft
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - ForcedInduction - 07-10-2010
Nons were induction hardened while turbo was salt-bath nitride hardened. I don't see why a crank couldn't be further hardened by a performance shop.
Maybe if you know a friend of a friend at MB you could get a raw crank that hasn't been past machining.
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - garage - 07-31-2010
Can anyone find an exploded diagram of both the engines side by side.
or even pictures of the block side by side?
Is it as simple as machining the block to fit the oil squirters?..what else would have to be done?
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - winmutt - 08-01-2010
I would think the TATA turboed om616 manual might have some good answers.
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - garage - 08-01-2010
(08-01-2010, 09:24 AM)winmutt I would think the TATA turboed om616 manual might have some good answers.
What is TATA???
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - winmutt - 08-01-2010
They make the Ghurka in India, turboed om616 licensed from mbz.
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - garage - 08-01-2010
(08-01-2010, 05:36 PM)winmutt They make the Ghurka in India, turboed om616 licensed from mbz.
Okay ive read about the Ghurkas, but didnt know they had a turbo 616.
Somthing to look into!
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - Alastair E - 08-02-2010
Oil pump is driven by chain and mounted under crank in Turbo motor and is higher capacity to account for the extra oiling/cooling jets for pistons. The pistons have channels that pass this oil for cooling--The N/A does not have these features.
The N/A oil-pump is driven off a skew-gear from injection-pump jack-shaft and does not flow the same amount....
There may well be differences in the Crank to allow for the extra chain-sprocket of the Turbo motor....
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - garage - 08-02-2010
(08-02-2010, 09:55 AM)Alastair E Oil pump is driven by chain and mounted under crank in Turbo motor and is higher capacity to account for the extra oiling/cooling jets for pistons. The pistons have channels that pass this oil for cooling--The N/A does not have these features.
The N/A oil-pump is driven off a skew-gear from injection-pump jack-shaft and does not flow the same amount....
There may well be differences in the Crank to allow for the extra chain-sprocket of the Turbo motor....
Okay well that is great information to be had Alastair, thanks alot!
I guess running a turbo on a om616 is just a risk ill have to take with precaution.
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - garage - 08-02-2010
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/gurkha-in-action-t-310.html
The truck in the video is powered by an om616 turbo.
Sounds like a diesel to me=]
http://fr.truveo.com/id/3393464483
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - Alastair E - 08-02-2010
(08-02-2010, 11:11 AM)garage(08-02-2010, 09:55 AM)Alastair E Oil pump is driven by chain and mounted under crank in Turbo motor and is higher capacity to account for the extra oiling/cooling jets for pistons. The pistons have channels that pass this oil for cooling--The N/A does not have these features.
The N/A oil-pump is driven off a skew-gear from injection-pump jack-shaft and does not flow the same amount....
There may well be differences in the Crank to allow for the extra chain-sprocket of the Turbo motor....
Okay well that is great information to be had Alastair, thanks alot!
I guess running a turbo on a om616 is just a risk ill have to take with precaution.
Yes, I believe its quite acceptable to run a Turbo on N/A 61x engine--(Although many may disagree...) Providing you limit boost to under 8psi or so....
Carefully alter pump a little at a time and monitor EGT's keeping them to a safe limit and you should be OK....
Longevity of engine will be affected, but by how much, who knows, guess it depends on how old the engine is to start with!
--Worth making sure the cooling-system, oil-cooler and Radiator are top-notch too--HEAT is the killer to summit like this.....
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - garage - 08-02-2010
(08-02-2010, 04:53 PM)Alastair E Yes, I believe its quite acceptable to run a Turbo on N/A 61x engine--(Although many may disagree...) Providing you limit boost to under 8psi or so....
Carefully alter pump a little at a time and monitor EGT's keeping them to a safe limit and you should be OK....
Longevity of engine will be affected, but by how much, who knows, guess it depends on how old the engine is to start with!
--Worth making sure the cooling-system, oil-cooler and Radiator are top-notch too--HEAT is the killer to summit like this.....
Yes i also belive it would be okay to run the turbo on the N/A engines, as long as there not pushed too far.
Thanks for the help alastair!
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - ConnClark - 08-03-2010
At peachpits in the diesel section there was post with a list of everything that had to be done to a NA OM617 block to make it a turbo. I believe Forced has mentioned the biggest stumbling block to making an OM616 which would be the hardened crank. Other than that I think it just a matter of a lot of elbow grease and time. I think it would be easier to import an engine from India though.
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - Graminal95 - 08-03-2010
The 616 is happy to have a turbo, I can't remember when I put my turbo on something like 125K and I now have 175K+ (Odo Stopped). I have had not issues with it so far and it still runs like the day I got it.
On the piston squirter front, I would not use the MB squirter as its a lot of machining to make it work. Instead I would do this
http://www.rallyrace.net/jvab/spgm/index.php?spgmGal=Volvo_Rods__Pistons_Squirterizational_Mods
and just make sure that they were aligned with the oil hole in the piston.
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - Captain America - 08-03-2010
WOW, possibly the sexiest pistons I've ever seen!
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - garage - 08-03-2010
(08-03-2010, 11:24 AM)Graminal95 The 616 is happy to have a turbo, I can't remember when I put my turbo on something like 125K and I now have 175K+ (Odo Stopped). I have had not issues with it so far and it still runs like the day I got it.
On the piston squirter front, I would not use the MB squirter as its a lot of machining to make it work. Instead I would do this
http://www.rallyrace.net/jvab/spgm/index.php?spgmGal=Volvo_Rods__Pistons_Squirterizational_Mods
and just make sure that they were aligned with the oil hole in the piston.
What kind of turbo did you use on the 616?
Do you have any photos of the setup??
(08-03-2010, 10:28 AM)ConnClark At peachpits in the diesel section there was post with a list of everything that had to be done to a NA OM617 block to make it a turbo. I believe Forced has mentioned the biggest stumbling block to making an OM616 which would be the hardened crank. Other than that I think it just a matter of a lot of elbow grease and time. I think it would be easier to import an engine from India though.
I will try to find that on pp, thanks for the heads up.
Hmnnn do you have any contact info on finding one in india?
I cant imagine how much $$$ it would be to ship that much weight to Cali..
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - Graminal95 - 08-03-2010
Quote:WOW, possibly the sexiest pistons I've ever seen!
Those are the custom ones my friend had made up for Volvo's, that and longer rods reduced reciprocating mass by something like 3-4kg.
Quote:What kind of turbo did you use on the 616?
Do you have any photos of the setup??
The Turbo is a TD04HL and is to big. Came from a Volvo 850 T5.
The set up you can see here.
Falcon radiator and Cosworth intercooler.
http://picasaweb.google.com/GWCullen/Intercooler#
Turbo install
http://picasaweb.google.com/GWCullen/240DTurbo#
I have a different airbox in there now, the cone was a joke and let a lot of dirt by.
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - JB3 - 08-04-2010
I was thinking of just cutting the 5th cylinder off of a 617 set of manifolds, and just putting the whole stock setup on my 240. Would that be worth it really? I have three complete stock turbo setups with various 200,000 mile turbos.
Graminal and Willbhere4u, how is the performance difference?
I am not looking for performance, Im mostly looking for a little extra power on grades, which so far has been a problem on my 240.
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - garage - 08-04-2010
(08-04-2010, 09:44 AM)dropnosky I was thinking of just cutting the 5th cylinder off of a 617 set of manifolds, and just putting the whole stock setup on my 240. Would that be worth it really? I have three complete stock turbo setups with various 200,000 mile turbos.
Graminal and Willbhere4u, how is the performance difference?
I am not looking for performance, Im mostly looking for a little extra power on grades, which so far has been a problem on my 240.
Thats the exact route im heading dropnosky.
But im thinking of possibly getting headers welded up instead of using a manifold from a 617.
But thats exactly what i want is somthing to help out on the inclines.
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - JB3 - 08-04-2010
(08-04-2010, 10:08 AM)garage Thats the exact route im heading dropnosky.
But im thinking of possibly getting headers welded up instead of using a manifold from a 617.
But thats exactly what i want is somthing to help out on the inclines.
Yeah, its humiliating to lose 30 mph on the longer uphills. If I could reduce that to even 20, id be happier
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - willbhere4u - 08-04-2010
My turbo suck for off line performance but it kicks ass on grades and highway passing!
doing 75 up mountain passes is something it couldn't do before I put it on
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - JB3 - 08-04-2010
I just spent an hour reading your and Graminal's threads on the turbo subject and have decided that this is a good idea, even without the oil jets. I want to keep my decent fuel economy, but the lack of power on grades is murderous. If only I had a little more, id be happy.
I have a bad 300TD engine to steal parts off of, correct me if Im missing anything for major changes I should be making-
1. I am going to take my non EGR 5cyl exhaust and intake manifolds and cut them down to 4 cylinders and install.
2. then swap in the oil filter housing from my TD with the turbo line provision (I am assuming the oil filters are compatible, but could there be a problem with the thermostat temp range to release oil into the cooler between the 616 and 617?)
3.put in a turbo drain port on the oil pan Graminal style
4. use one of the three turbos here, off of a 83, 84, and 85. (85 is worn), deal with exhaust and intake
5. Then there is switching the ALA to the ALDA off the turbo motor, I have to do this right? I don't really want to mess with rack and whatnot, would I have additional power even leaving the injection pump at stock outputs? Can it be done without the ALDA? how did the rajay turbo kit do this?
6. EGT and boost gauges
What about the over boost protection relay? I figure that if I have the boost gauge (and I watch my gauges), I don't really need this piece, right?
What am I missing?
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - HughF_UK - 08-04-2010
I had an STT turbo kit on my 617 and although I'm not sure if the odometer was zeroed when the diesel/turbo conversion was done (it started life as a 230TE automatic) but by 175k miles, it was hurt, very hurt... So I'd shy away from bolting a turbo onto an NA engine, but that's just my experience.
Some pics:
http://picasaweb.google.com/hugh.frater/STTTurboOM617?feat=directlink
Also, that volvo mod is exactly the way perkins fitted oil squirters to the BMC 'O' Series block when they turned it into the 'Prima' turbo diesel, I've got one in bits in my lounge
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - JB3 - 08-04-2010
you had that at 1 bar? I was going to go with a much lower pressure, like 6 psi like these guys are talking about in the threads linked above with no over fueling. Im hoping that lower boost, plus no other real changes for power adds just enough to give this heavy sedan a little extra pep when its needed, but does not kill it.
What problems did the engine exhibit?
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - HughF_UK - 08-04-2010
I had a very unreliable pressure/boost gauge at the time that I doubt was super accurate, but it was just shy of 1 bar...
It went like a scalded cat, but breathed very very heavily, used tons of oil, was a pain to get through emmisions and used to run on 3 cylinders for about 30 secs when started from cold.
Apart from that and the rot in it, it was a great car! It was quite heavily over fueled as well, and without and pyrometer, it was probably running a bit hot
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - willbhere4u - 08-04-2010
As for the oil filter housing you can just swap the back plate off of the filter housing for the oil outlet to the turbo!!!!
I tried the ALDA but my turbo is way to large to spool with out it being set for full fule from idle that Rajay isn't very efficient it spools like a Holset lol and it has no wast gate!
I removed my rack limiter but didn't notice much difference in power!
As for a turbo try and use the stock kkk k26 it has a slightly smaller exhaust housing and adjustable wast gate and spools earlier that the Garrett and has would work better on the om616!
I have hit 10psi in my car and it ran fine I don't think over boosting is a big deal as the wast gate should limit it
The biggest thing to get is an EGT gauge and keep it under 1200*f I don't let mine go above 1200*F
on my car I have not noticed a big difference in fuel mileage before I got 29-30mpg at 65-70 mph now I get 28-29 at 75-80mph near red line in my car!!!
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - yankneck696 - 08-04-2010
I used a small IHI turbo from a '90's Ford Probe on my 616, turned up the fuel quite a bit & ran Veggie in a Samurai with 6 wheel drive. It was quite a difference. But, when I ran diesel, it was black as night behind me. The truck is still at the salvage yard I worked at. Still running, but on diesel & turned down quite a bit. I ran it around 8-10 PSI ( found a gague from a swimming pool I mounted on the roll bar with zip ties) Not sure how accurate it was, but when I added the turbo & turned it up, the butt dyno was very happy !
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - willbhere4u - 08-04-2010
The oil squirters on that Volvo look just like the ones used on Suzuki GSXR 1000's , Huyabusa's
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - ForcedInduction - 08-05-2010
(08-04-2010, 07:57 PM)yankneck696 But, when I ran diesel, it was black as night behind me.
Thats because VO naturally doesn't smoke, same with biodiesel.
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - Graminal95 - 08-05-2010
Quote:My turbo suck for off line performance but it kicks ass on grades and highway passing!
Me Toooo, I have been keeping an eye out for a gt1749v from a passat, but I never find anything cheap. I think this would be the ticket for the OM616, low rpm boost to get her off the line.
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - ForcedInduction - 08-05-2010
You should look at Saab 9000's, they're much more common in the junkyards and they use a GT17.
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - Graminal95 - 08-06-2010
Quote:You should look at Saab 9000's, they're much more common in the junkyards and they use a GT17.
its funny you say that, the turbo on there now is volvo 850R or Saab 9000 Aero. It would be nice if it was a little smaller like the normal 9000 gt17, but I would really like the VNT gt17.
At the moment I'm getting an inspection and alignment (PO had a steering box put in but they did not center it when they stuck the wheel on). The guy said "this car is really underpowered and your turbo is not working!" Now I have had 3 240D's over the years all manual and this one is the fastest. 0-60 in 18s instead of 24s pre turbo. I tried to explain how the bleed hole works to regulate boost, but he looked at me like I was had no idea what I was talking about, and just stated that the waste gate would not work without the both hoses hooked up. The way I reg boost is by having a tee fitting from the comp. housing, one end goes to the wg the other is a small hole that goes at atmosphere. WG normally opens at 7psi now opens at 14. Simple.
The mechanic also stated that he has had "many of these car and none were this underpowered", I think I'm going to have to see how many 240D turbos he has had.
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - JB3 - 08-06-2010
(08-06-2010, 09:05 AM)Graminal95 The mechanic also stated that he has had "many of these car and none were this underpowered", I think I'm going to have to see how many 240D turbos he has had.
hes probably confusing it with a 300D turbo, but maybe im giving him too much credit. Most likely, hes just an idiot tech trying to one up the customer and demonstrate his competence as he sees it, but typically betraying a total lack of knowledge. I just had this same type of argument with a tow truck driver recently about powerflow.
RE: Piston oil jets on a 616? - willbhere4u - 08-06-2010
There's a lot of people that don't know any thing about cars! That think they do out there including a lot of mechanics!!!