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+--- Thread: Injector Nozzles (/showthread.php?tid=28)
Injector Nozzles - bgkast - 11-11-2008
In the next few days I'm going to buy some monarch nozzles to rebuild my injectors. I'm still debating between 261 and 265 nozzles. I am told that they are similar below 4K RPM, but above that the 265s flow better. The thing that concerns me is that the 265s are intended for a 6 cyl engine of the same displacement so they are designed to feed a 17% smaller cylinder. What do you all think?
Re: Injector Nozzles - ForcedInduction - 11-11-2008
I think I would stick with the /240 nozzles and use the 265 nozzles for the extrude hone process.
In my case I lost some noticeable low end torque but the engine was smother, more quiet and had a little more top-end power with the 265 nozzles in the AAZ injectors. When I switched back to the stock nozzles and stock injectors the idle noise went up significantly but my torque came back and the MPG went from 26-27 average to 29.79 on my last tank, even with a leaking injector line. I'm still waiting using a second tankful to confirm if that change is accurate or a fluke.
Re: Injector Nozzles - bgkast - 11-11-2008
The 240 nozzles have been superseded by the 261 type.
Re: Injector Nozzles - Telecommbrkr - 11-11-2008
Anyone have contact info for EDM?
Re: Injector Nozzles - bgkast - 11-11-2008
I have contact info for extrude hone if you want it.
Re: Injector Nozzles - Lincolnlock - 11-12-2008
Dynomite diesel performance in Monroe Wa, will do them for $50 a piece. I'll be taking mine there. They will only do new nozzles though.
Re: Injector Nozzles - ConnClark - 11-12-2008
I'm still convinced that the 240 nozzles are a superior design. I think it was an economic decision to eliminate the center pintle hole.
Re: Injector Nozzles - winmutt - 11-12-2008
Lincolnlock Dynomite diesel performance in Monroe Wa, will do them for $50 a piece. I'll be taking mine there. They will only do new nozzles though.Who is going to be the first one to do it?
Re: Injector Nozzles - bgkast - 11-12-2008
I went with the 261s
Re: Injector Nozzles - Lincolnlock - 11-12-2008
winmuttLincolnlock Dynomite diesel performance in Monroe Wa, will do them for $50 a piece. I'll be taking mine there. They will only do new nozzles though.Who is going to be the first one to do it?
I'll try it as soon as I get moved. I NEED more fuel!!! They seem to think that the stocky injectors are a huge restriction and the next logical step is to open them up a bit. Also, they said that they will machine delivery valves down. The pump will have to be recalibrated to run cut delivery valves though, and will more than likely have horrible street manners.
Re: Injector Nozzles - GREASY_BEAST - 11-12-2008
John Link of JL Machine said it will cost somewhere around $40 a nozzle, and he's willing to give used nozzles a shot. This is for EDM. He also mentioned that he'll tweak the pintles a wee bit. I'm doing it on the 265s. Will have the nozzles shipped out at the end of the month, so I'll probably be able to report back sometime between December 1st and January 1st, and definitely by February 1st, as to what the results and costs are.
Re: Injector Nozzles - GREASY_BEAST - 11-12-2008
Lincolnlock The pump will have to be recalibrated to run cut delivery valves
What does this mean, exactly? What parameter needs calibration to run cut delivery valves?
Re: Injector Nozzles - ForcedInduction - 11-13-2008
Start of delivery and the torque curve.
Re: Injector Nozzles - Lincolnlock - 11-13-2008
GREASY_BEASTLincolnlock The pump will have to be recalibrated to run cut delivery valves
What does this mean, exactly? What parameter needs calibration to run cut delivery valves?
Basically quantity, flow, idle, and balance will need to be addressed. Most of the issues with running cut delivery valves are due to multiple injection events per combustion stroke. Basically you really do need the colar on the valves. (or atleast a small colar)
Re: Injector Nozzles - bgkast - 11-15-2008
I got the nozzles and built a pop tester. So far I have rebuilt 2 of the injectors. I think I will offer a pop test/balancing/spray pattern check for members here. $50/set. My local Injection shop wanted $120/set for this service.
Re: Injector Nozzles - bgkast - 11-18-2008
I got the injectors rebuilt and installed. It runs noticably smoother and no longer nails on cold start, but it seems to have about the same amount of power.
Re: Injector Nozzles - cannonballSDL - 11-24-2008
bgkast I got the injectors rebuilt and installed. It runs noticably smoother and no longer nails on cold start, but it seems to have about the same amount of power.
you went with the 261's right? im still looking for a upgrade but i dont want to over do it... im looking for something proven... even if its OEM plus
Re: Injector Nozzles - tomnik - 11-25-2008
cannonballSDLbgkast I got the injectors rebuilt and installed. It runs noticably smoother and no longer nails on cold start, but it seems to have about the same amount of power.
you went with the 261's right? im still looking for a upgrade but i dont want to over do it... im looking for something proven... even if its OEM plus
You can run 261, 265 or 297. No noticeable difference on diesel.
A huge difference make the AAZ bodies with correct increased pop pressure.
I ordered custom made 3 flats-nozzles to test, that could be an up grade.
Still waiting for them.
Tom
Re: Injector Nozzles - 300SD81 - 11-26-2008
tomnik You can run 261, 265 or 297. No noticeable difference on diesel.
A huge difference make the AAZ bodies with correct increased pop pressure.
I ordered custom made 3 flats-nozzles to test, that could be an up grade.
Still waiting for them.
Tom
What are the 297s from? This is the first time I've heard of them...
Re: Injector Nozzles - tomnik - 11-27-2008
300SD81 What are the 297s from? This is the first time I've heard of them...
Volkswagen (could also be 293 not sure about that).
But before you buy something wait for the Floyd-nozzles with increased flow (10% compared to 261,265,297) and 3 flats on the needle (custom made).
Hopefully middle of next week.
Tom
Re: Injector Nozzles - oel_brenner - 12-04-2008
bgkast I got the nozzles and built a pop tester.
bgkast.. thats awfully clever.. is that just a cheap hydraulic bottle jack ?
and you are using diesel as the hydraulic fluid ?
or the jack piston is pushing into a cylinder ( pipe screwed onto top of jack ) ?
I may have to build one of those...
have any other pics ?
Re: Injector Nozzles - GREASY_BEAST - 12-05-2008
I built one of those too, I would recommend ordering high-pressure fittings. The ones from the hardware store are only rated to something like 500psi, if that. McMaster has them for a reasonable price. Since the volumes involved are small, I bet pressure would dissipate quickly in the event of a burst, but I wouldn't want to risk it all the same... The bottle jack works a heck of a lot better than the grease gun!!
Re: Injector Nozzles - bgkast - 12-05-2008
oel_brennerbgkast I got the nozzles and built a pop tester.
bgkast.. thats awfully clever.. is that just a cheap hydraulic bottle jack ?
and you are using diesel as the hydraulic fluid ?
or the jack piston is pushing into a cylinder ( pipe screwed onto top of jack ) ?
I may have to build one of those...
have any other pics ?
Yes, just a $6 2 ton jack from harbor freight. I had a spare delivery valve holder turned down and threaded with NPT thread to fit the metric fuel line. I use filtered B5 to test.
I don't have any other pictures, but if you look on the other board there are several threads on how to build them.
RE: Injector Nozzles - GREASY_BEAST - 01-24-2009
Not sure if this is the right place to put this, it seemed like a relevant topic. If mods know of a better one, please move it!
I just received my newly overbored 265 nozzles from Jon Link at J.L. Machining. I believe he bored the hole out from 0.045in to 0.052in for a cross sectional area increase of 35%. I'll check them when I am able to make sure this estimate is correct.
I have not installed them yet, and will be unable to for at least two week's time, maybe much more. In the meantime I will collect as much 0-60mph data as I can with the 241 nozzles currently installed, and analyze it. That way, when I do install the modified 265's I will be able to objectively evaluate the results.
Sorry, no pics at present, but there really isn't much to see...
By the way, Jon's price was exceptionally reasonable. I'll hold further judgement until I've thoroughly tested the injectors on the pop-tester and in the car.
RE: Injector Nozzles - Gross Polluter - 01-25-2009
I'm looking forward to reading the results. Keep us posted.
RE: Injector Nozzles - HoleshotHolset - 04-08-2009
I knew Jon would treat you right! Glad to hear it...I'm awaiting to see your results.
My Jon Link EDM'd 5-hole by .015" nozzles for the Cummins are still running smooth as can be. I definitely plan on sending him more business over the next few years.
Beers,
Matt
RE: Injector Nozzles - GREASY_BEAST - 04-09-2009
Sorry about the slow pace guys, I'm stalling on the injectors until I have time to install my intercooler. Currently running a benchmark 12.5-13 second 0-60 with 241 nozzles and a transmission that isn't quite right... I'll be able to post results for the upgraded 265 nozzles early in June once I get the intercooler installed and the tranny fixed.
RE: Injector Nozzles - HoleshotHolset - 04-10-2009
No hurry - nurse that tranny back to health and get an IC on that thing!
Beers,
Matt
RE: Injector Nozzles - HoleshotHolset - 06-02-2009
Well - it's early in June........
Beers,
Matt
RE: Injector Nozzles - Lincolnlock - 06-02-2009
I'll have mine back from Dynomite Diesel tomorrow afternoon and I'll just put them in. I'll post up some results.
RE: Injector Nozzles - HoleshotHolset - 06-03-2009
(06-02-2009, 04:33 PM)Lincolnlock I'll have mine back from Dynomite Diesel tomorrow afternoon and I'll just put them in. I'll post up some results.
Nice. I look forward to seeing your results.
Beers,
Matt
RE: Injector Nozzles - Lincolnlock - 06-05-2009
Ok, I installed the new honed nozzles. It has way more fuel right off the line. Or, I can pin it and have short bursts of power. It leans out pretty quick though. I guess it's time for a gnarly lift pump. Or maybe I need to change the pickup screen in the tank. Either way. It made a difference in power. I'm pretty sure the factory turbo is going to blow up now. I better swap in my hy-9 in short order.
RE: Injector Nozzles - GREASY_BEAST - 06-05-2009
(06-05-2009, 09:38 AM)Lincolnlock It leans out pretty quick though.
Thats interesting! I'll get mine pop-tested and in next week. Its taking some time to get my trans in working order. I also found an adjustable overflow bolt, so I'll be able to increase the fuel gallery pressure using the stock lift pump and see if that helps any. I really doubt its a question of volume, the stock lift pump moves quite a bit of fuel.
RE: Injector Nozzles - Telecommbrkr - 06-06-2009
Are you getting much smoke on launch?
RE: Injector Nozzles - winmutt - 06-07-2009
(06-06-2009, 09:38 PM)Telecommbrkr Are you getting much smoke on launch?
I drop bombs all over town with stock injectors
RE: Injector Nozzles - Lincolnlock - 06-07-2009
(06-06-2009, 09:38 PM)Telecommbrkr Are you getting much smoke on launch?
Yes. I put a 1000 miles on the car this weekend. It's way better for power. I finally have enough fuel to need another turbo. I stretched the fuel pressure regulator springs out a little more. It seemed to help. I had to set the idle down a little as well.
RE: Injector Nozzles - HoleshotHolset - 07-24-2009
(06-07-2009, 10:24 PM)Lincolnlock I had to set the idle down a little as well.
That's a sure sign you've added some fuel. Excellent!
Thanks for being a front runner with these little Merc IDI's. Now to determine how far we can go without dropping $1800 on a Myna pump.
I'd also be curious to know whether a bone-stock OM606.962 will properly adjust idle after hogged out injector nozzles are installed...
Cheers,
Matt
RE: Injector Nozzles - winmutt - 08-05-2009
How much was the cost on getting them honed?
RE: Injector Nozzles - Lincolnlock - 08-05-2009
(08-05-2009, 11:11 AM)winmutt How much was the cost on getting them honed?
$50 bucks a piece. That is including the pop test. You'll need new nozzles for them to hone. Mercedessource has nozzles for $100 a set. Just give them a call and tell them that you are getting them honed out. I set it up with dynomite diesel and just had the parts shipped directly there. 1 day turn around.
RE: Injector Nozzles - ForcedInduction - 08-05-2009
Thats because MercedesSource seels low quality aftermarket junk and used parts.
RE: Injector Nozzles - GREASY_BEAST - 08-06-2009
JL Machine EDM-ed my used 265 nozzles for $20 each. I'm installing them tomorrow so I'll report back how they work.
RE: Injector Nozzles - Lincolnlock - 08-07-2009
(08-05-2009, 11:57 PM)ForcedInduction Thats because MercedesSource seels low quality aftermarket junk and used parts.
I like posts like this. I've bought new parts, used parts, and they've located things I haven't been able to find for me for free. Everything I purchased has been the correct part, and good quality. If you feel like spending 3X more for the same thing you go right ahead. But it's the same stuff everyone else sells. Believe me, after fixing up 4 barn find cars into daily drivers I've learned where to get things.
RE: Injector Nozzles - ForcedInduction - 08-07-2009
(08-07-2009, 01:02 AM)Lincolnlock But it's the same stuff everyone else sells
...at a higher price since you're paying for those "guides".
They care about money, not helping people fix their cars.
RE: Injector Nozzles - GREASY_BEAST - 08-09-2009
(08-06-2009, 01:37 PM)GREASY_BEAST JL Machine EDM-ed my used 265 nozzles for $20 each. I'm installing them tomorrow so I'll report back how they work.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/om61x-injector-upgrade-t-186-2.html
RE: Injector Nozzles - tantank79 - 08-10-2009
Ok, so now why did Lincolnlock's work well and Greasy's didn't?
RE: Injector Nozzles - GREASY_BEAST - 08-10-2009
(08-10-2009, 12:32 PM)tantank79 Ok, so now why did Lincolnlock's work well and Greasy's didn't?
Because #1 and #2 delivery valve seals are leaking, and its possible that #3 injector body is leaking. This would be the cause of nailing, hunting at idle, loss of power, etc etc. Delivery valve seals are on the way.
RE: Injector Nozzles - GREASY_BEAST - 08-22-2009
(08-10-2009, 02:37 PM)GREASY_BEAST(08-10-2009, 12:32 PM)tantank79 Ok, so now why did Lincolnlock's work well and Greasy's didn't?
Because #1 and #2 delivery valve seals are leaking, and its possible that #3 injector body is leaking. This would be the cause of nailing, hunting at idle, loss of power, etc etc. Delivery valve seals are on the way.
Update: delivery valve seal leaks may be contributing to some idle issues, but one of the injectors is spraying a little sideways. I bet this is the cause of the nailing. 240 Nozzles are back in.
However, my claim about no increase in power was wrong. Although 0-60 seemed to not be affected, there seemed to be a little more power available between 2100 and 2800rpm. Basically, injector mods may be worth it, but they won't make the car faster without more fuel being pushed by the injector pump, and the only way to do that is with more displacement.