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+--- Thread: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine (/showthread.php?tid=3394)
7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - dieselmeken - 02-27-2012
As some of you here on the STD forum knows, I have been struggling with making my own pumpelement for the M-seriepump. I want to reveal some facts what I have done the last year.
Previously I have done pumps with the "old" 7 mm Ford Transit element, Also with the 6 mm original OM606 element. My opinion was that the 7 mm didnt work out well at all, High knock at low idle, high fuelconsumption max 120cc was some of the disadvantages with those.
6 mm was running perfect, good balance nice idle and so on.
After those pumps my customers wanted moore fuel, Myna was running 170cc with there own 7 mm element, However I could not buy those, Myna dont sell element only, they just put them in there own pumps. The explanation I got was that
-It is some difference in quality.
At this moment I have around 10-15 pumps waiting for nice, big element whit a lot of fuel.
Something had to bee done
I started do design the first serie of 7,5 mm element, It took around 3 months for the factory to make them for me.
At this moment I have payed around 8000 euro.
After 4 months the goods arriwed, I was glad for about 4,5 minute, then everything went to ****.
Barrel was too big, didnt even fit in the pumphousing, plunger was 0,15mm to long, The plunger could not go to top in the pump, it was stuck.
This however I could fix, my friend, who has a mechanical workshop helped me.
Barrels was grinded down to right dimensions so that they fitted in the housing, plunger was modified so that I could mount them in the pump.
First pump was 2,5 degrees wrong in phasing, That was no big deal, but it gave me a lot of extra work, changing rollers in the tappet lifter so the balance was OK.
Next thing was fuelquantity, I was expecting a bit over 170cc but no.
140-150 cc was max at 21mm of rack BUT, It had capacity for OVER 200cc
The "only" thing was that the helixangel on the element was to flat, I would need around 25-26 mm of rack to get 100% out of the element.
80 elements where adjusted, 10pc of 140cc pumps was built with good result. I bougt a 250TD with OM605 just for testing the pumpelements properly.
Rest of the elements where shipped back to the factory for modification.
Serie 2 was up on drawingtable, wise from the first serie I know now how it should bee designed, Serie 2 has som benefits that serie 1 dont have.
Here is a small teaser
50 days from today and serie 2 will arriwe for testing. After that gentlemen, I think that I can offer you some nice pumps.
140cc & a bit moore.
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - Palmer - 02-27-2012
(02-27-2012, 02:43 PM)dieselmeken As some of you here on the STD forum knows, I have been struggling with making my own pumpelement for the M-seriepump. I want to reveal some facts what I have done the last year.
Previously I have done pumps with the "old" 7 mm Ford Transit element, Also with the 6 mm original OM606 element. My opinion was that the 7 mm didnt work out well at all, High knock at low idle, high fuelconsumption max 120cc was some of the disadvantages with those.
6 mm was running perfect, good balance nice idle and so on.
After those pumps my customers wanted moore fuel, Myna was running 170cc with there own 7 mm element, However I could not buy those, Myna dont sell element only, they just put them in there own pumps. The explanation I got was that
-It is some difference in quality.
At this moment I have around 10-15 pumps waiting for nice, big element whit a lot of fuel.
Something had to bee done
I started do design the first serie of 7,5 mm element, It took around 3 months for the factory to make them for me.
At this moment I have payed around 8000 euro.
After 4 months the goods arriwed, I was glad for about 4,5 minute, then everything went to ****.
Barrel was too big, didnt even fit in the pumphousing, plunger was 0,15mm to long, The plunger could not go to top in the pump, it was stuck.
This however I could fix, my friend, who has a mechanical workshop helped me.
Barrels was grinded down to right dimensions so that they fitted in the housing, plunger was modified so that I could mount them in the pump.
First pump was 2,5 degrees wrong in phasing, That was no big deal, but it gave me a lot of extra work, changing rollers in the tappet lifter so the balance was OK.
Next thing was fuelquantity, I was expecting a bit over 170cc but no.
140-150 cc was max at 21mm of rack BUT, It had capacity for OVER 200cc
The "only" thing was that the helixangel on the element was to flat, I would need around 25-26 mm of rack to get 100% out of the element.
80 elements where adjusted, 10pc of 140cc pumps was built with good result. I bougt a 250TD with OM605 just for testing the pumpelements properly.
Rest of the elements where shipped back to the factory for modification.
Serie 2 was up on drawingtable, wise from the first serie I know now how it should bee designed, Serie 2 has som benefits that serie 1 dont have.
Here is a small teaser
50 days from today and serie 2 will arriwe for testing. After that gentlemen, I think that I can offer you some nice pumps.
140cc & a bit moore.
Nice one mate.
Ill be looking for a power pump soon for my C250 OM605
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - willbhere4u - 02-27-2012
Thanks for all of your hard work! And for posting on this forum. I'm excited to see how this works out I'll have to start saving up for a custom pump!
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - Booster - 02-27-2012
I can't wait for these to be offered properly!
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - w123love - 02-27-2012
Schttttoked!
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - winmutt - 02-27-2012
What did the factory say?
-Rolf
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - pp d - 02-28-2012
Well... I made a pump with 150 cc delivery for Tom, sent it about a week ago.
No need such thing as 20-21 mm track travel
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - dieselmeken - 02-28-2012
(02-28-2012, 01:39 AM)pp d Well... I made a pump with 150 cc delivery for Tom, sent it about a week ago.
No need such thing as 20-21 mm track travel
Ofcourse you did. You get a element that works in the first place, You can buy element from Tom, How hard can it bee then? You dont design, you just build the pump.
Toms element is nice if you dont need moore fuel that 140-.150cc, My customers building high performance engine, just as the topic says, and then Toms element is not enough
Im trying to explain how difficult this is, I dont need any devaluation.
I think this is going to workout perfect, just you wait and see.
Some people has not been so helpful to me, that is one of the reasons I had to do something.
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - barrote - 02-28-2012
(02-28-2012, 02:13 AM)dieselmeken(02-28-2012, 01:39 AM)pp d Well... I made a pump with 150 cc delivery for Tom, sent it about a week ago.
No need such thing as 20-21 mm track travel
Ofcourse you did. You get a element that works in the first place, You can buy element from Tom, How hard can it bee then? You dont design, you just build the pump.
Toms element is nice if you dont need moore fuel that 140-.150cc, My customers building high performance engine, just as the topic says, and then Toms element is not enough
Im trying to explain how difficult this is, I dont need any devaluation.
I think this is going to workout perfect, just you wait and see.
Some people has not been so helpful to me, that is one of the reasons I had to do something.
hope u succeed, from the deepest hope it work out,
do u have any idea what are u going to do after , will u rebuild the pumps or just available the elements?
go on that the right way to fight.
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - Simpler=Better - 02-28-2012
I like the sounds of 200cc
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - w210tdt - 02-28-2012
Keep up the good work gøran!
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - DeliveryValve - 02-28-2012
Göran, Thanks many times over for posting your thoughts, expertise and videos on injection pump building. Folks like myself love to see these journeys in type of build in action and explained.
I hope all the success in this one and perhaps maybe later, you can design and manufacture an affordable higher output MW element.
.
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - 2996 - 02-28-2012
Interesting and very effective looking helix design. I am glad someone is making an element that gives more fuel than ~150ccm, as why go through all the trouble and expense with changing the elements only to find you need more fuel. <150ccm elements have there place as well.
Thanks for posting this, and keep up with the great, and sometimes discouraging work!
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - huseyin55amg - 02-28-2012
great news goran ! do you keep the standard turbo ? is it able to cope with the extra fuel delivery..?
keep us posted goran......
rgds hus
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - tomnik - 02-28-2012
(02-28-2012, 02:13 AM)dieselmeken Toms element is nice if you dont need moore fuel that 140-.150cc, My customers building high performance engine, just as the topic says, and then Toms element is not enough
Hi,
not correct in the case of my SuperFloyd pump.
As I always pray the thing is not to move end of delivery too late.
I am retarding down BOD to about 18deg for smooth engine run and low emission and still end delivery within the Bosch recommendation therefore the limit of quantity.
Now my new prototype delivers 150 ccm but still respecting the safe range of the Bosch book and standard rack travel and standard governor operation.
My new elements could easily exceed 200 ccm but I don't care as only very few people can burn this amount of fuel without black clouds of smoke.
Anyway good job, I know very well what it takes to calculate, design and manufacture elements in excellent quality
Tom
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - winmutt - 02-28-2012
(02-28-2012, 02:13 AM)dieselmeken Im trying to explain how difficult this is, I dont need any devaluation.
I support this statement.
It's great that ppd came up with a pump using Tom's elements. I look forward to what dm offers as well. Tom went through several iterations as well IIRC.
More to the point, you guys are offering competition to Myna. I think everyone here appreciates all the hard work everyone has put in.
-Rolf
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - Captain America - 02-29-2012
You are Awesome Gøran!
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - DeliveryValve - 02-29-2012
(02-28-2012, 05:26 PM)tomnik ...
Now my new prototype delivers 150 ccm but still respecting the safe range of the Bosch book and standard rack travel and standard governor operation....
Tom
If I was in the market for M-pump elements, this would be what would want regarding the setup because of the lack of experience in IP building up here in the States. Make it easier for the tech.
BTW -Not to highjack your thread Göran, But Tom, how much are your elements? And are you going to do another run of the MW?
.
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - sassparilla_kid - 02-29-2012
If I had an M-pump I would buy these elements in a second!!
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - aaa - 02-29-2012
Would be nice if the american 617 people didn't even have to mail stuff in to be modded, since 617 m-pumps are in europe already.
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - w123love - 02-29-2012
I have a M-pump that needs to be modified. Who do I need to talk to?
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - tomnik - 03-01-2012
(02-29-2012, 09:42 PM)w123love I have a M-pump that needs to be modified. Who do I need to talk to?
...to DeliveryValve ...
Tom
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - dieselmeken - 03-01-2012
(03-01-2012, 12:58 AM)tomnik(02-29-2012, 09:42 PM)w123love I have a M-pump that needs to be modified. Who do I need to talk to?
...to DeliveryValve ...
Tom
Or you can talk to me if you wish.
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - tomnik - 03-01-2012
(03-01-2012, 01:41 AM)dieselmeken Or you can talk to me if you wish.
Hi Göran,
the interest was in having a US guy do the pump...
Tom
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - aaa - 03-01-2012
(03-01-2012, 07:29 PM)tomnik(03-01-2012, 01:41 AM)dieselmeken Or you can talk to me if you wish.
Hi Göran,
the interest was in having a US guy do the pump...
Tom
That wasn't mentioned here. Although it would indeed be preferable. I wonder about the timeliness though, of both alternatives.
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - w123love - 03-01-2012
I don’t want a US guy touching my pump. I don’t want to be a lab rat. I want a pro. So offshore it will go.
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - SurfRodder - 03-02-2012
(03-01-2012, 09:33 PM)w123love I don’t want a US guy touching my pump. I don’t want to be a lab rat. I want a pro. So offshore it will go.
The guy that did my pump in Fresno is a self proclaimed "Mercedes Geek" and works at an IP shop with likely the same/equivalent test gear to do the actual tuning...not sure how much more "pro" you need...mine has Tom's elements BTW... hope to install it soon.
I also have an M-pump lying around that I may mess with at a later date, but I'm sure it'll go to the same guy for tuning.
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - EDH_Performance - 03-04-2012
Gøran`s 7.5mm elements killed my 2nd and 3rd gear! But there is still brutal acceleration in 4th
So I am very pleased with the pump and the job Gøran did! Gøran is the man
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - dieselmeken - 03-04-2012
Yes, I know that my serie 1 element works out well, it just needs some more love and care when putting them into the pump.
Nothing for do it yorself.
Serie 1 will never bee sold as part only, I only put them in by myself.
Serie 2 however will be on the market, But only after testing them out.
I am glad that EDH_performance i happy with his dm superpump.
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - squirrelmaster - 03-04-2012
(03-04-2012, 01:59 PM)dieselmeken Yes, I know that my serie 1 element works out well, it just needs some more love and care when putting them into the pump.
Nothing for do it yorself.
Serie 1 will never bee sold as part only, I only put them in by myself.
Serie 2 however will be on the market, But only after testing them out.
I am glad that EDH_performance i happy with his dm superpump.
price per series 2 element ? and any idea of when these may be ready
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - dieselmeken - 03-05-2012
(03-04-2012, 04:47 PM)squirrelmaster(03-04-2012, 01:59 PM)dieselmeken Yes, I know that my serie 1 element works out well, it just needs some more love and care when putting them into the pump.
Nothing for do it yorself.
Serie 1 will never bee sold as part only, I only put them in by myself.
Serie 2 however will be on the market, But only after testing them out.
I am glad that EDH_performance i happy with his dm superpump.
price per series 2 element ? and any idea of when these may be ready
As I wrote at first, 50 days approx. Price is not set yet. I must test them out first.
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - jeemu - 03-05-2012
Can you tell how much is true injection amount on 7,5mm. Not mean what you can get on testbench?
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - mantahead - 03-05-2012
(03-04-2012, 08:34 AM)EDH_Performance Gøran`s 7.5mm elements killed my 2nd and 3rd gear! But there is still brutal acceleration in 4thhi,
nice one, Goran has done it again
what sort of EGTS are you getting
how many cc of fuel
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - EDH_Performance - 03-05-2012
(03-05-2012, 05:20 PM)mantahead(03-04-2012, 08:34 AM)EDH_Performance Gøran`s 7.5mm elements killed my 2nd and 3rd gear! But there is still brutal acceleration in 4thhi,
nice one, Goran has done it again
what sort of EGTS are you getting
how many cc of fuel
I dont know what cc my pumpe gives! Tell us Gøran
I haven`t maxed it out yet, still on 1.7 bar i boost
I see around 500celcius at WOT...
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - dieselmeken - 03-06-2012
(03-05-2012, 04:15 PM)jeemu Can you tell how much is true injection amount on 7,5mm. Not mean what you can get on testbench?
Im not sure I am with you there, You must explain what you mean Jeemu.
The only amount I have is the answer from the bench. That is with 6x2x600 pipes & 111 testinjectors just as the Bosch testsheet says for that pump.
EDH_performance is 140cc @ 1500 rpm.
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - tomnik - 03-06-2012
(03-06-2012, 01:29 AM)dieselmeken EDH_performance is 140cc @ 1500 rpm.
... @ which rack position?
Tom
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - dieselmeken - 03-06-2012
(03-06-2012, 02:40 PM)tomnikaround 18 mm, why do you wonder?(03-06-2012, 01:29 AM)dieselmeken EDH_performance is 140cc @ 1500 rpm.
... @ which rack position?
Tom
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - winmutt - 03-06-2012
(03-04-2012, 08:34 AM)EDH_Performance Gøran`s 7.5mm elements killed my 2nd and 3rd gear! But there is still brutal acceleration in 4th
This post is worthless without videos.
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - dieselmeken - 03-07-2012
(03-06-2012, 09:43 PM)winmutt(03-04-2012, 08:34 AM)EDH_Performance Gøran`s 7.5mm elements killed my 2nd and 3rd gear! But there is still brutal acceleration in 4th
This post is worthless without videos.
Daniel, do you have a small clip just for showing, maybee I can get a five star rating on my topic then
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - iheartboost - 03-07-2012
So excited!!
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - HoleshotHolset - 03-07-2012
Glad I didn't send my pump out yet...
By the way, where are the dieselmeken stickers?!
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - jonbobshinigin - 03-07-2012
Can we say "group buy"?
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - sassparilla_kid - 03-08-2012
I need to find another job pronto so I can afford this lol
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - EDH_Performance - 03-08-2012
Here is one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da_aPaNexrM&feature=player_embedded#!
The other car is an BMW 325ix with 170 hp.
I have no 3rd and so I have alot of lag I 4th because of that
Feeding pressure to the pump is 3bar.
The turbo is putting out 1.7bar, around 450-500c in EGT, and it is still smoking, so i need to turn the stoparm down a bit more
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - dieselmeken - 03-08-2012
(03-08-2012, 05:05 AM)EDH_Performance Here is one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da_aPaNexrM&feature=player_embedded#!
The other car is an BMW 325ix with 170 hp.
I have no 3rd and so I have alot of lag I 4th because of that
Feeding preassure to the pump is 3bar.
The turbo is putting out 1.7bar, around 450-500c in EGT, and it is still smoking, so i need to turn the stoparm down a bit more
Or you can adjust the pressure to go higher, and crash the other gears too
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - EDH_Performance - 03-08-2012
(03-08-2012, 07:40 AM)dieselmekenHaha, i just ordered a BMW e39 530d gearbox and clutch from a wreckyard in sweden, This will hold the power(03-08-2012, 05:05 AM)EDH_Performance Here is one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da_aPaNexrM&feature=player_embedded#!
The other car is an BMW 325ix with 170 hp.
I have no 3rd and so I have alot of lag I 4th because of that
Feeding preassure to the pump is 3bar.
The turbo is putting out 1.7bar, around 450-500c in EGT, and it is still smoking, so i need to turn the stoparm down a bit more
Or you can adjust the pressure to go higher, and crash the other gears too
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - iheartboost - 03-08-2012
i want to blow black smoke
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - diesel2fast4u - 03-09-2012
(03-08-2012, 08:02 PM)iheartboost i want to blow black smoke
buy a truck
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - Savitas - 03-09-2012
(03-08-2012, 08:19 AM)EDH_Performance Haha, i just ordered a BMW e39 530d gearbox and clutch from a wreckyard in sweden, This will hold the power
This is my GS5-39DZ gearbox ready to fit with OM606 engine.
![[Image: 882c35871a4b.jpg]](http://s018.radikal.ru/i522/1201/e5/882c35871a4b.jpg)
BMW gearbox should hold your torque, but I'm in deep doubt about original clutch. I offer you to not waste money and buy some ceramic clutch and and stronger pressure plate.
RE: 7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine - George3soccer - 03-09-2012
your options with a bmw tranny is huge with clutches.