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+--- Thread: The 4 valve 602.98X (/showthread.php?tid=6832)
The 4 valve 602.98X - barrote - 10-21-2015
Hello fine people,
In my quest for a 2.9 605 thumble in a 602.980 bock wich come out a E290E , the plan was to drop the crank, rods, piston in a 605 block!!!
then i dreamed that the 4 valve head might fit the 602.98X block , started some measurements and it does fit!!!drop in 
Like this instead of having the hassle of changing the 605 block into a 2.9 i will change the 602.98x into a 4 valve engine...
trials will be done with the IDI set up first place , and then i´ll move in the DI setup.
Goals will be the 100HP cylinder...
any input would be much appreciated
regards....
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - swampmonkey - 10-21-2015
i have a friend in turkey who did moreorless the same, or a 605 head on a 602 engine
somehow the rules is that you cant change the block in an engine,
so he ran a 602 block, with 605pistons and a 605 head, apperantly he had to do one (?) modification for like a water outlet or something like that in the 605 head, but besides that, more or less plugandplay. that way he had a 605 techonoly, but still the 602 block
he had that for a while, but now runs a stroked om602 with a ported 602head, seems to go quite good anyhow!
and i dont know much more than that
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - barrote - 10-22-2015
I see ... people have done it... in my case the block type matters litle for my rules...
What i´m after is a 2.9 ltr engine in the 5cyl /4 valve set up, and after turn it to TDI...
Thats the chalenge, and of course 100HP cylinder.... with some driveability....
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - barrote - 11-10-2015
hello fine people,
The monster is taking shape!!!
In the end this will be the MB 2.9 4 valve DI engine!!!
If someone could help me to post pictures i would be glad to do it .... and share!!!!
Ate the moment a few modifications still have to be made , but the core engine is assembled, 602.982 block , with a 605.960 cylinder head, Injection pump will be a PES5M80320CRS201 @ 6k 150cc, a GT30V turbine fitted with a 67mm MSF compressor.
Head will retrofited to use a 1mm wider valve in exaust and a 1.5mm wider in intake, TD cams, valve springs with 800N for intake and 600N for exaust... ported, flow improvements that simple things every engine will benefit.
At first stage , this engine will run IDI for concept trials, DI will come later on, still searching for the right low press DI injector nozzle.
would apreciate help with the pictures.
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - raysorenson - 11-10-2015
Above, and to the left of the "quick reply" box below each thread is a small box called "New Reply". Click on it, scroll down to the bottom of the page where it says "Attachments". Click on the "Chose File" box and upload your pics.
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - Hario' - 11-11-2015
Yes add pictures because it might be all lies.
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - CRD4x4 - 11-11-2015
(11-10-2015, 04:07 PM)raysorenson Above, and to the left of the "quick reply" box below each thread is a small box called "New Reply". Click on it, scroll down to the bottom of the page where it says "Attachments". Click on the "Chose File" box and upload your pics.
The above procedure for attaching pix has never worked for me, personally. I do all my pic taking & posting on my phone and haven't found a way to post anything. Pix are always too big.
Techies? Is it the site, phone or user that's making this difficult?
Simple fix that doesn't require a 3rd party host?
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - raysorenson - 11-11-2015
When you say it doesn't work, do you mean the small box appears where an image should be or something else?
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - CRD4x4 - 11-11-2015
(11-11-2015, 10:08 AM)raysorenson When you say it doesn't work, do you mean the small box appears where an image should be or something else?
For this post reply I chose the REPLY button then new attachments, choose file, add attachment and everything seems hunky dory but no pic attaches (or will I eat my word?)
Pressing POST REPLY now...
Edit: No pic
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - Petar - 11-12-2015
(11-11-2015, 02:45 PM)CRD4x4(11-11-2015, 10:08 AM)raysorenson When you say it doesn't work, do you mean the small box appears where an image should be or something else?
For this post reply I chose the REPLY button then new attachments, choose file, add attachment and everything seems hunky dory but no pic attaches (or will I eat my word?)
Pressing POST REPLY now...
Edit: No pic
You can upload to a third party site like photobucket.Then click insert an image and paste the adress of your photo.
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - barrote - 11-12-2015
Trying the pictures
As many can see is not only typping
developments will come in the next few days.... along with the mods needed....
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - the D - 11-12-2015
Interesting. Before I decided on a 606 swap I looked into this possibility but the cost to import the parts/engine were a wash with the larger engine. Will be watching though
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - barrote - 01-29-2016
Boys , Boys , Just for Big Boys
A litle Ferrari, colour
And the inspected guts
in a few days a litle development ....
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - PedroFerreira - 01-29-2016
nice....
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - silestanix - 02-02-2016
This looks interesting, will keep a watch, the OM602 from the Sprinter are good engines.
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - barrote - 02-24-2016
This days the progress is being lazy mater of saying,
Mods done till this point
1-time chain increase lenght to comply with the 4 valve head.
2-conection from water pump housing to rear cylinders (15mm stainless stell plumping pipe
).RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - JVance - 02-24-2016
That's bright!
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - barrote - 06-02-2016
Been busy this days , the subframe is done , or mass block.
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - barrote - 08-08-2016
Hello fine people !!!
What about THIS!!!
it should work .... some how .... if it fits the bay
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - baldur - 08-08-2016
Nice!
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - starynovy - 08-10-2016
Bores, pistons and rings are original?
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - barrote - 08-10-2016
89mm bore, goetze rings , piston as u can see are modded, but were modded from original´s.... heavily modded
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - TKMad - 08-14-2016
So cool! Would like a DI 602 for my W123 coupe!
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - bricktron - 08-14-2016
barrote is breaking new ground as usual.... this is a monster
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - EvoPeter - 09-02-2016
Barrote
I bought a 2,9 engine and om604 piston. Original comp-ratio on the 2,9 engine is 19,5 and 22 on the 2,5.
I did some measurements and i can use the om604 piston after some modification on the skirt and i have to create a bushing for the pistonpin to have the 26mm pin to fit the 28mm rod.
Only problem i can see is that the om604 piston will be 2mm lower at TDC then the DI piston. But it dont have the hole in the middle. How far up will a om602 IDI piston stick up?
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - barrote - 09-02-2016
Well , i though of going that road too but then a .98X engine came about and was exactly what i was needing.
The piston pin on the 604 is 26mm, and the rod on the .98X is 28 so the best way to go is open the piston hole to 28mm , the finish has to be within the 100th of mm, something easyly achievable with a mandrell drill finish type device.
The compression ratio , has a lot to do with being DI engine, but in our case that does not matter much i belive so, since u have to order a custom gasket , u can deck the block or order the gasket fat enough or slim enough to make your wonders.
The piston protrusion if u want to keep the 22/1 ratio should be within the .5 to .8mm then u add the 1.3 mm stock gasket.
it is rather simple , as long as the compression test reaches over 30 bar , the engine will work nice.
Or u leave the DI pistons in , mod them to acomodate the 4 valves and later on u can swap to DI if i´m successfull in short time i hope a solution should come about, and then the power will be a diff story, a way diff.
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - EvoPeter - 09-02-2016
(09-02-2016, 01:40 PM)barrote Well , i though of going that road too but then a .98X engine came about and was exactly what i was needing.
The piston pin on the 604 is 26mm, and the rod on the .98X is 28 so the best way to go is open the piston hole to 28mm , the finish has to be within the 100th of mm, something easyly achievable with a mandrell drill finish type device.
The compression ratio , has a lot to do with being DI engine, but in our case that does not matter much i belive so, since u have to order a custom gasket , u can deck the block or order the gasket fat enough or slim enough to make your wonders.
The piston protrusion if u want to keep the 22/1 ratio should be within the .5 to .8mm then u add the 1.3 mm stock gasket.
it is rather simple , as long as the compression test reaches over 30 bar , the engine will work nice.
Or u leave the DI pistons in , mod them to acomodate the 4 valves and later on u can swap to DI if i´m successfull in short time i hope a solution should come about, and then the power will be a diff story, a way diff.
Compression height is 45mm on both the DI piston and om605 piston but is 43mm on om604 piston.
I was visitining a company that builds performance engines on daily basis today and showed them the piston and they said the best thing to do is to put in a bushing in the rod.
But the problem later will also be the headgasket.
If i use om605 lower part and piston i get 2730cc. And wont cost me much more then a new headgasket.
If i go with om602 lower parts and om604 piston i get 2875cc. But will set me back about 700euro for all the machine work.
30bar with a cold engine? My engine i have now gives me 17-18bar on all cylinders and works fine. Almost no breathing from vent. Can also be the tester i use. Its a cheep one.
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - barrote - 09-02-2016
Compression test are to be made at coolant working temp, new or rebuid engine has to be over 30 bar. used engine the repair threshold is 18 bar.
U cant use the 605 block with a D29 crank, the cylinder well is about 8mm short , so the already small skirt will be 8mm smaller, it then be possible that the piston tend to rock in the botom causing many malfunctions , and maybe colapse at high revolutions.
The compression height is a number that i dont know that way , i know that the distance from the upper ring to crown is called compression height , and tha has nthing to do with deck height , wich all MB blocks are 230mm height i belive from center crank to top deck . if not 23cm is something similar and the same for all.
anyway , why dont u use the DI pistons, just cost u a gasket and some minor Money to cut the valve clearences.
BTW with a smaller mod the 4 valve head can acomodate the 2 valve gasket. just a small weld ....
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - EvoPeter - 09-03-2016
(09-02-2016, 04:42 PM)barrote U cant use the 605 block with a D29 crank, the cylinder well is about 8mm short , so the already small skirt will be 8mm smaller, it then be possible that the piston tend to rock in the botom causing many malfunctions , and maybe colapse at high revolutions.
The compression height is a number that i dont know that way , i know that the distance from the upper ring to crown is called compression height , and tha has nthing to do with deck height , wich all MB blocks are 230mm height i belive from center crank to top deck . if not 23cm is something similar and the same for all.
anyway , why dont u use the DI pistons, just cost u a gasket and some minor Money to cut the valve clearences.
BTW with a smaller mod the 4 valve head can acomodate the 2 valve gasket. just a small weld ....
Compression height:
http://www.lunatipower.com/Images/Tech/Pistons/CompressionHeight.gif
So you think it will be okay to run with DI pistons in a IDI engine? Even tho the compression ratio will be 2,5 lower? My fears also is the headgasket that will be weak. Been thinking of pyramid steel rings to secure the flame armor of the headgasket.
Can you specify were to weld so i know what to say to my aluminium welder if i go throught with this? If not here you can take it in a PM.
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - barrote - 09-04-2016
Well i will use the DI pistons in my project... but i have two goals with it .... one is to prove the 5cyl 3 ltr engine , as a better choice than the 606. The second is to turn it into a TDI, low press.
Will the pistons work ok with IDI , i think so there is no reason not to as long as the flame is fired into the bowl as the DI injectors do, the are just more strong and the bowl is meant to contain the impact force and noise associated with DI engines.
The 4 valve head assy, has two places where the contact is not perfect when using a 2 valve gasket. The oil supply channel and the contact on the chain cover, basically u have to opose a gasket and see what has to be done , nothing special.
Or u can just search a custom MLS gasket wich is probably the best choice.
I have my project delayed, now but i intend to have the engine running by Christmas, so we can share info , as of me i´m here as always.
of course there are things that need to be adressed in private... the head is not one of those...
regards
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - EvoPeter - 09-04-2016
Well next weekend i will be doing the final battle at the race track with my 190. After that i will put it in the garage for winter service and tune. Will remove the om605 that is in the car and open it up. Been running with it for 2years now. It have been abused, badly overheated 2 times, broke a pump camshaft so the chain got slack and 2 years ago when i first fired it up it siezed on me due to lack of oil pressure. Fixed the oil pressure and changed oil. Found alot of shavings in the filter. But the engine still keeps on running.
Would be fun to see internal condition.
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - barrote - 09-04-2016
Nice , i wish u´d be closer maybe we could do a partnership in sports , i´m a very lausy driver but i have some "charm" in mechanics.....
I have lots of parts around in case u need something rare......
Next saturday i´ll be off for job reasons , will come back by midle October , and then i will show u some secrets in the head assy
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - Lucian189 - 09-05-2016
Interesting! subscribed
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - EvoPeter - 09-06-2016
(09-04-2016, 02:36 PM)barrote Nice , i wish u´d be closer maybe we could do a partnership in sports , i´m a very lausy driver but i have some "charm" in mechanics.....
I have lots of parts around in case u need something rare......
Next saturday i´ll be off for job reasons , will come back by midle October , and then i will show u some secrets in the head assy
Maybe i could find ya on fb? Easier to chatt there.
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - barrote - 09-06-2016
i know , but i´m too old brained to use those fancy modern stuff, if u need something rather urgent , pm i watch them almost every day .
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - EvoPeter - 09-06-2016
(09-06-2016, 02:37 AM)barrote i know , but i´m too old brained to use those fancy modern stuff, if u need something rather urgent , pm i watch them almost every day .
Heard some rumors today that the gears are different on the 2,9D? One guy tried this and had to long injection time but i think he must have used the solid wheel according to rumors.
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - barrote - 09-06-2016
Nop, wich gears ?
The gear at the crankshaft is interchangeable with a D25 crank, so the same as a 605.
Then the cam gear has to rotate 2 times the crank gear , and the pump gear the same. 1/2 turns.
The engine block, marked 602.98X was built to house a VP37 pump, where the advance is inside the pump(so it uses a thin and solid sprocket). And the housing can´t acomodate the advance mechanism used in a M. I used the cutting solution, i shapped the block to house the advance mechanism.
U got to cut something, or u use a VE pump, with a rotary pump u will be limited to a certain degree, the 11mm injection head wont push like a 8mm M, but is faster....
It takes some mods to achieve the goal, as long as the outcome is what was planned.....
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - barrote - 12-07-2016
Finally the head is bolted, sorry no pics hehe. but the head assy is as this... gasket well if it will hold i´ll open a custom made gasket shop
The valve train gear , they will be powered by N/A set of cams
Compare with the stock ones
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - CRD4x4 - 12-08-2016
Pardon my ignorance, what are the divot marks on your valves?
RE: The 4 valve 602.98X - barrote - 12-08-2016
They were already used before, those are track marks, this is a customized built, sometimes track markings are a very nice way to go....
old style