+- STD (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std)
+-- Forum: Tuning (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Forum: Drivetrain (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=9)
+--- Thread: 722.9 TCU Build Theater (/showthread.php?tid=7997)
722.9 TCU Build Theater - deviance - 03-09-2018
Hello Everybody.
I made 722.6 Controller before.
Let's try out 722.9.
Documents:
ATSG - https://www.atsg.us/atsg/skin/frontend/default/atsg/corrections/2011%20blue%20722-9.pdf
Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/user/DeviMauz/videos
Many thanks to Sean
RE: 722.9 TCU Build Theater - turbo_kemi - 03-09-2018
Can the 722.6 controller be used on a w211 with existing auto?
RE: 722.9 TCU Build Theater - baldur - 03-09-2018
The 722.9 has a controller integrated into the valve body.
RE: 722.9 TCU Build Theater - deviance - 03-09-2018
Yes, I know.
I reversed many can-bus clusters / modules (2018 Continental VW Tiguan Virtual Cluster, Audi B7 ABS with checksum....) so first try is use the original TCU via can bus. If this not work I will wire out the solenoids for M3 DKG Gearbox I seen both solutions.
RE: 722.9 TCU Build Theater - baldur - 03-10-2018
Getting it to work is probably not difficult at all. Getting it to shift when you want it to, the way you want it to is probably very difficult (requires reflashing TCU via CAN bus). Most factory standard auto trans calibration is poopoo for performance. Very very slow and sluggish shifts.
RE: 722.9 TCU Build Theater - deviance - 03-10-2018
722.6 Can work good with stock TCU too after remap. I know not fast as you want but have to start somewhere and there is immo inside the TCU.
RE: 722.9 TCU Build Theater - whipplem104 - 03-10-2018
So far no one has been able to eliminate immobilizer. And controlling it with a standalone is very complicated.. These are clutch to clutch transmissions and very difficult to control. We do other Clutch-clutch transmissions for other manufacturers but they are extremely easy to burn up. You have to have tq management if you are going to run any big power and besides if you wanted more gears start with a transmission that has support.
Big thing is to be honest they are not as good as the 722.6 unless you want fuel economy.
6l80e is really the only one of the clutch to clutch transmissions I would consider using in a standalone environment. Still very difficult if you want big power. And expensive. And big.
RE: 722.9 TCU Build Theater - baldur - 03-10-2018
722.6 is a clutch to clutch transmission also, but it's an unusual construction at that, very unusual valve body.
RE: 722.9 TCU Build Theater - baldur - 03-10-2018
I have some CAN data captured from a 722.9 equipped Sprinter. Send me an e-mail and I can give you a copy. My e-mail address is on my web site.
RE: 722.9 TCU Build Theater - whipplem104 - 03-10-2018
Yes and no. certain shifts are clutch to clutch. 3-4 being the main one. You are correct about the valve body. It handles most of the overlap control issues that you have in normal C-C trans. I think that the big thing is that you could technically run a 722.6 with 3 pushbutton switches to shift it. Doing it right is much more complicated but you can shift it that way. It is really hard to burn one up though and that is a big difference.
RE: 722.9 TCU Build Theater - deviance - 03-11-2018
8hp70 guy: https://youtu.be/l-uuAiyci6U
He have videon on his channel while driving
RE: 722.9 TCU Build Theater - baldur - 03-11-2018
(03-10-2018, 05:31 PM)whipplem104 Yes and no. certain shifts are clutch to clutch. 3-4 being the main one. You are correct about the valve body. It handles most of the overlap control issues that you have in normal C-C trans. I think that the big thing is that you could technically run a 722.6 with 3 pushbutton switches to shift it. Doing it right is much more complicated but you can shift it that way. It is really hard to burn one up though and that is a big difference.
Ok, interesting. I wasn't aware that the 722.6 had shifts that were done by a single clutch. The valve body's built in logic kind of hides what's really going on when a shift happens. I just knew about the 3-4 flaring, which is a behaviour that is only possible on a clutch to clutch transmission, and I wondered why it only tends to happens in 3-4.
A real clutch to clutch transmission is next to impossible to control without a controller that tunes itself, and they're very sensitive to changes in fluid viscosity and clutch pack wear, basically anything that changes how quickly the clutch will bite or release when the solenoid controlling it opens or closes, hence the controller has to monitor each shift and continually alter its transfer functions.
I did a 5HP110 trans on a PCM controller several years ago and it was a gigantic pain in the ass to tune. We got it working reasonably well in the end (solid shifts, not violent but not factory smooth), and we didn't burn up the transmission but it has needed small tweaks to the tune occasionally since.
Baldur
RE: 722.9 TCU Build Theater - erx - 03-11-2018
(03-11-2018, 06:10 AM)baldur(03-10-2018, 05:31 PM)whipplem104 Yes and no. certain shifts are clutch to clutch. 3-4 being the main one. You are correct about the valve body. It handles most of the overlap control issues that you have in normal C-C trans. I think that the big thing is that you could technically run a 722.6 with 3 pushbutton switches to shift it. Doing it right is much more complicated but you can shift it that way. It is really hard to burn one up though and that is a big difference.
Ok, interesting. I wasn't aware that the 722.6 had shifts that were done by a single clutch. The valve body's built in logic kind of hides what's really going on when a shift happens. I just knew about the 3-4 flaring, which is a behaviour that is only possible on a clutch to clutch transmission, and I wondered why it only tends to happens in 3-4.
A real clutch to clutch transmission is next to impossible to control without a controller that tunes itself, and they're very sensitive to changes in fluid viscosity and clutch pack wear, basically anything that changes how quickly the clutch will bite or release when the solenoid controlling it opens or closes, hence the controller has to monitor each shift and continually alter its transfer functions.
I did a 5HP110 trans on a PCM controller several years ago and it was a gigantic pain in the ass to tune. We got it working reasonably well in the end (solid shifts, not violent but not factory smooth), and we didn't burn up the transmission but it has needed small tweaks to the tune occasionally since.
Baldur
Actually it is clutch to clutch on 3-4 shift. Every shift is done by one solenoid and solenoid is switched only during shift. Solenoid itself is not applying oil pressure directly to clutch, it applies pressure to valve in valve body and valve releases or applies pressure to more than one clutch at the time. Some useful pages:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQwN2-9mLME
http://www.all-trans.by/assets/site/files/mercedes/722.6.1.pdf
RE: 722.9 TCU Build Theater - whipplem104 - 03-11-2018
I should clarify that all shifts function as a clutch to clutch in that they turn one clutch on and one off. It is jsut mechanically they do not work that way. Most are simply turning off a clutch that is in overrun or for engine braking. So you can turn it off very fast and do not have to worry about flair.
RE: 722.9 TCU Build Theater - deviance - 03-11-2018
Try to change k2 clutch in 722.6 and no more flare.
RE: 722.9 TCU Build Theater - baldur - 03-11-2018
(03-11-2018, 10:36 AM)whipplem104 I should clarify that all shifts function as a clutch to clutch in that they turn one clutch on and one off. It is jsut mechanically they do not work that way. Most are simply turning off a clutch that is in overrun or for engine braking. So you can turn it off very fast and do not have to worry about flair.
Yes, there's sprag clutches there also. A true clutch to clutch transmission does not use sprags except for isolated functions like reverse.