Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps
Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps
07-28-2010, 11:10 AM
#1
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
07-28-2010, 11:10 AM #1Posted for mk216v....
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
07-29-2010, 03:42 PM
#3
Crap though--some of the page corners are illegible due to my original copy(and then faxing). If you'd like me to fax again I can, or if anyone can't read a certain something, PM me and I'll type the text for you.
1980 W460 300GD LWB 4spd manual, AKA "Radio Flyer"
Thx much Cody!
Crap though--some of the page corners are illegible due to my original copy(and then faxing). If you'd like me to fax again I can, or if anyone can't read a certain something, PM me and I'll type the text for you.
1980 W460 300GD LWB 4spd manual, AKA "Radio Flyer"
07-29-2010, 08:11 PM
#4
(07-29-2010, 03:42 PM)mk216v ...
Crap though--some of the page corners are illegible due to my original copy(and then faxing). If you'd like me to fax again I can, or if anyone can't read a certain something, PM me and I'll type the text for you.
Joe Mondello has been around for long time. Although not a diesel, I was always impressed with the power he got out of Oldsmobile gasser engines back in the day including over sized 350s that used the Olds diesel blocks. He knows how to make power.
Here is a nice copy...
.
This post was last modified: 07-29-2010, 08:29 PM by DeliveryValve.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
07-29-2010, 08:11 PM #4(07-29-2010, 03:42 PM)mk216v ...
Crap though--some of the page corners are illegible due to my original copy(and then faxing). If you'd like me to fax again I can, or if anyone can't read a certain something, PM me and I'll type the text for you.
Joe Mondello has been around for long time. Although not a diesel, I was always impressed with the power he got out of Oldsmobile gasser engines back in the day including over sized 350s that used the Olds diesel blocks. He knows how to make power.
Here is a nice copy...
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
07-29-2010, 11:56 PM
#6
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
07-29-2010, 11:56 PM #6NICE!
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
07-30-2010, 11:38 AM
#8
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
07-30-2010, 11:38 AM #8X2! ...
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
07-30-2010, 11:50 PM
#9
Here is some of my thoughts relating to the article. For some time I’ve been thinking about port modification for more velocity and combustion chamber modification. I was thinking of messing around with it, but of course I don’t have the proper equipment or resources to create or test my theories. I ended up giving my spare cylinder head to Rudolf_Diesel last year for him to mess around with it when he gets bored so I hope he does something with it.
My combustion chamber modification would have been similar to Mondello’s article, though I would have been more thinking in terms of aiding in swirl combustion instead of breaking vortices. And the ports…. Well.. I believe it really needs to be raised quite a bit to get some velocity. But again, I don’t have equipment and resources to test that theory. Valve seat angle modification would be worked on also. I would of thought a standard 3 angle would of done the job, but Joe says otherwise. It would be cool to have a flow bench!
(617 cylinder head pic boosted from Konstan's thread at peachparts.)
The other thing Mondello mentions is about velocity from the exhaust port to spool up the turbo faster.
Biohazard posted a picture of his recently painted stock exhaust manifold that I think is fascinating because it clearly shows hot spots in the 2 in 1 runner as opposed to the single runner. This is from his “Flying Pumpkin” thread.
http://superturbodiesel.com/std/the-flyi...153-2.html
Biohazard’s assessment: “..creating hotspots or high pressure areas like this manifold seems to be doing probably isn't helping anything. I'm thinking its from the different exhaust flow directions inside the manifold banging into each other right at the turbo opening. Probably why the single runner hasn't turned color yet... “
I agree with his take. It does seem those hotspots are areas of restrictions. Maybe exhaust routing should be taken a bit more seriously to ease flow to the turbo? Of course this would require some money or knowhow to do so!.
.
This post was last modified: 07-31-2010, 01:40 AM by DeliveryValve.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
07-30-2010, 11:50 PM #9No problem fellas…
Here is some of my thoughts relating to the article. For some time I’ve been thinking about port modification for more velocity and combustion chamber modification. I was thinking of messing around with it, but of course I don’t have the proper equipment or resources to create or test my theories. I ended up giving my spare cylinder head to Rudolf_Diesel last year for him to mess around with it when he gets bored so I hope he does something with it.
My combustion chamber modification would have been similar to Mondello’s article, though I would have been more thinking in terms of aiding in swirl combustion instead of breaking vortices. And the ports…. Well.. I believe it really needs to be raised quite a bit to get some velocity. But again, I don’t have equipment and resources to test that theory. Valve seat angle modification would be worked on also. I would of thought a standard 3 angle would of done the job, but Joe says otherwise. It would be cool to have a flow bench!
(617 cylinder head pic boosted from Konstan's thread at peachparts.)
The other thing Mondello mentions is about velocity from the exhaust port to spool up the turbo faster.
Biohazard posted a picture of his recently painted stock exhaust manifold that I think is fascinating because it clearly shows hot spots in the 2 in 1 runner as opposed to the single runner. This is from his “Flying Pumpkin” thread.
http://superturbodiesel.com/std/the-flyi...153-2.html
Biohazard’s assessment: “..creating hotspots or high pressure areas like this manifold seems to be doing probably isn't helping anything. I'm thinking its from the different exhaust flow directions inside the manifold banging into each other right at the turbo opening. Probably why the single runner hasn't turned color yet... “
I agree with his take. It does seem those hotspots are areas of restrictions. Maybe exhaust routing should be taken a bit more seriously to ease flow to the turbo? Of course this would require some money or knowhow to do so!.
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
08-01-2010, 10:58 PM
#10
I'm also planning on swapping on my ported cylinder head, but I don't want to post up a pic because it's not as sexy as this one!
Pretty sure it's just a standard valve job and port match. Sure would love to put a stock cylinder head on a flow bench, along with the ported one. I have one of each hanging out if someone wants to volunteer a flow bench? 
If you have access, it would give the community some solid numbers!
82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin (Gone): 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, ported/polished cylinder head.
84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. 300DT front swaybar. C320 17" wheels. Now with the Flyin Pumpkins engine!
Looks like I'm going to have to try to weld up a header when I get back from Bonneville... LOL
I'm also planning on swapping on my ported cylinder head, but I don't want to post up a pic because it's not as sexy as this one! Pretty sure it's just a standard valve job and port match. Sure would love to put a stock cylinder head on a flow bench, along with the ported one. I have one of each hanging out if someone wants to volunteer a flow bench? If you have access, it would give the community some solid numbers!
82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin (Gone): 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, ported/polished cylinder head.
84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. 300DT front swaybar. C320 17" wheels. Now with the Flyin Pumpkins engine!
08-02-2010, 12:03 AM
#11
Intake ports:
Exhaust ports:
Again, I didn't have them hogged way out. I just wanted better than stock air flow with decent street manners.
82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin (Gone): 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, ported/polished cylinder head.
84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. 300DT front swaybar. C320 17" wheels. Now with the Flyin Pumpkins engine!
All I have at the moment are pics of the ports. You can still see the marks from the gasket around both the intake and exhaust ports. The guy didn't go full race crazy on the porting, just opened it up a bit and smoothed it out. It may be hard to see, but the surfaces of all the runners isn't super smooth. It's shiney, but it has a bit of the golf ball texture to it that you need for full air flow capability.
Intake ports:
Exhaust ports:
Again, I didn't have them hogged way out. I just wanted better than stock air flow with decent street manners.
82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin (Gone): 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, ported/polished cylinder head.
84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. 300DT front swaybar. C320 17" wheels. Now with the Flyin Pumpkins engine!
08-02-2010, 12:31 AM
#12
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
08-02-2010, 12:31 AM #12Its cool that like the article says, hog out the ports a keep the valve size stock for the velocity.
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
08-02-2010, 02:44 PM
#15
(08-01-2010, 10:58 PM)Biohazard Looks like I'm going to have to try to weld up a header when I get back from Bonneville... LOL
I'm also planning on swapping on my ported cylinder head, but I don't want to post up a pic because it's not as sexy as this one!
Anyone with a (Superflow) flow bench?
I have a suggestion in OR if needed....he has been porting some of the finest watercooled VW (gas/petrol) heads for 30yrs. I could ask him if he'd be interesting with providing flow data.
This post was last modified: 08-02-2010, 02:45 PM by mk216v.
1980 W460 300GD LWB 4spd manual, AKA "Radio Flyer"
(08-01-2010, 10:58 PM)Biohazard Looks like I'm going to have to try to weld up a header when I get back from Bonneville... LOL
I'm also planning on swapping on my ported cylinder head, but I don't want to post up a pic because it's not as sexy as this one!
Anyone with a (Superflow) flow bench?
I have a suggestion in OR if needed....he has been porting some of the finest watercooled VW (gas/petrol) heads for 30yrs. I could ask him if he'd be interesting with providing flow data.
1980 W460 300GD LWB 4spd manual, AKA "Radio Flyer"
08-02-2010, 07:18 PM
#16
(08-02-2010, 02:44 PM)mk216v(08-01-2010, 10:58 PM)Biohazard Looks like I'm going to have to try to weld up a header when I get back from Bonneville... LOL
I'm also planning on swapping on my ported cylinder head, but I don't want to post up a pic because it's not as sexy as this one!
Anyone with a (Superflow) flow bench?
I have a suggestion in OR if needed....he has been porting some of the finest watercooled VW (gas/petrol) heads for 30yrs. I could ask him if he'd be interesting with providing flow data.
If they're willing to volunteer time, I'll cover the shipping both ways. Or, Drive the heads down myself if its cheaper. I'm just between Tacoma and Seattle.
82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin (Gone): 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, ported/polished cylinder head.
84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. 300DT front swaybar. C320 17" wheels. Now with the Flyin Pumpkins engine!
(08-02-2010, 02:44 PM)mk216v(08-01-2010, 10:58 PM)Biohazard Looks like I'm going to have to try to weld up a header when I get back from Bonneville... LOL
I'm also planning on swapping on my ported cylinder head, but I don't want to post up a pic because it's not as sexy as this one!
Anyone with a (Superflow) flow bench?
I have a suggestion in OR if needed....he has been porting some of the finest watercooled VW (gas/petrol) heads for 30yrs. I could ask him if he'd be interesting with providing flow data.
If they're willing to volunteer time, I'll cover the shipping both ways. Or, Drive the heads down myself if its cheaper. I'm just between Tacoma and Seattle.
82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin (Gone): 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, ported/polished cylinder head.
84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. 300DT front swaybar. C320 17" wheels. Now with the Flyin Pumpkins engine!
08-03-2010, 06:42 PM
#17
(08-02-2010, 11:38 AM)ConnClark Just to note that inducing swirl and turbulence in an IDI engine isn't going to get you anything. That is the prechamber's job.
Hey Conn, can you explain a bit more as to why swirl is not going to increase efficiency in an IDI?
I understand the prechamber's job in terms of combustion. But I would imagine having intake air swirl it's way in would increase efficiency in combustion in combination with the prechamber and the spent combustion swirling it's way out would increase scavenging of the rest of the gasses.
Even in later pre-chamber head renditions, Mercedes decided to have somewhat a shaped chamber..
603 Head
602 Head
Those examples maybe a bit of a stretch in terms of swirl combustion.
Anyhow It maybe hard to shape the combustion chamber on a 617 though because of the shallow water jacket in between the two valves.
.
This post was last modified: 08-03-2010, 06:46 PM by DeliveryValve.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
08-03-2010, 06:42 PM #17(08-02-2010, 11:38 AM)ConnClark Just to note that inducing swirl and turbulence in an IDI engine isn't going to get you anything. That is the prechamber's job.
Hey Conn, can you explain a bit more as to why swirl is not going to increase efficiency in an IDI?
I understand the prechamber's job in terms of combustion. But I would imagine having intake air swirl it's way in would increase efficiency in combustion in combination with the prechamber and the spent combustion swirling it's way out would increase scavenging of the rest of the gasses.
Even in later pre-chamber head renditions, Mercedes decided to have somewhat a shaped chamber..
603 Head
602 Head
Those examples maybe a bit of a stretch in terms of swirl combustion.
Anyhow It maybe hard to shape the combustion chamber on a 617 though because of the shallow water jacket in between the two valves.
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
08-03-2010, 06:49 PM
#18
(08-02-2010, 07:18 PM)Biohazard(08-02-2010, 02:44 PM)mk216v(08-01-2010, 10:58 PM)Biohazard Looks like I'm going to have to try to weld up a header when I get back from Bonneville... LOL
I'm also planning on swapping on my ported cylinder head, but I don't want to post up a pic because it's not as sexy as this one!
Anyone with a (Superflow) flow bench?
I have a suggestion in OR if needed....he has been porting some of the finest watercooled VW (gas/petrol) heads for 30yrs. I could ask him if he'd be interesting with providing flow data.
If they're willing to volunteer time, I'll cover the shipping both ways. Or, Drive the heads down myself if its cheaper. I'm just between Tacoma and Seattle.
I'll ask, thanks for the offer on S&H both ways.
It's a 617A head or ???
He's outside McMinnville, so ~1hr SW of Portland. S&H would be less I imagine.
1980 W460 300GD LWB 4spd manual, AKA "Radio Flyer"
(08-02-2010, 07:18 PM)Biohazard(08-02-2010, 02:44 PM)mk216v(08-01-2010, 10:58 PM)Biohazard Looks like I'm going to have to try to weld up a header when I get back from Bonneville... LOL
I'm also planning on swapping on my ported cylinder head, but I don't want to post up a pic because it's not as sexy as this one!
Anyone with a (Superflow) flow bench?
I have a suggestion in OR if needed....he has been porting some of the finest watercooled VW (gas/petrol) heads for 30yrs. I could ask him if he'd be interesting with providing flow data.
If they're willing to volunteer time, I'll cover the shipping both ways. Or, Drive the heads down myself if its cheaper. I'm just between Tacoma and Seattle.
I'll ask, thanks for the offer on S&H both ways.
It's a 617A head or ???
He's outside McMinnville, so ~1hr SW of Portland. S&H would be less I imagine.
1980 W460 300GD LWB 4spd manual, AKA "Radio Flyer"
08-04-2010, 12:20 AM
#19
(08-03-2010, 06:49 PM)mk216v(08-02-2010, 07:18 PM)Biohazard(08-02-2010, 02:44 PM)mk216v(08-01-2010, 10:58 PM)Biohazard Looks like I'm going to have to try to weld up a header when I get back from Bonneville... LOL
I'm also planning on swapping on my ported cylinder head, but I don't want to post up a pic because it's not as sexy as this one!
Anyone with a (Superflow) flow bench?
I have a suggestion in OR if needed....he has been porting some of the finest watercooled VW (gas/petrol) heads for 30yrs. I could ask him if he'd be interesting with providing flow data.
If they're willing to volunteer time, I'll cover the shipping both ways. Or, Drive the heads down myself if its cheaper. I'm just between Tacoma and Seattle.
I'll ask, thanks for the offer on S&H both ways.
It's a 617A head or ???
He's outside McMinnville, so ~1hr SW of Portland. S&H would be less I imagine.
Sweet! My ported head is a 617a turbo head. The stock head is a greasy 80 300D non turbo head. Port / valve size is, to the best of my knowledge, identical to the turbo ones. I know of the differences in cam grind, cam finish, sodium valves, etc. But for flow bench numbers, it should suffice. Let me know if your guy would be willing to volunteer some bench time! I know where McMinnville is, I have a friend down that way. Wouldn't be a bad excuse to take a trip.
Gives me a good reason to hot tank that head too... Currently, the grease is doing its job preventing rust.
82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin (Gone): 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, ported/polished cylinder head.
84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. 300DT front swaybar. C320 17" wheels. Now with the Flyin Pumpkins engine!
(08-03-2010, 06:49 PM)mk216v(08-02-2010, 07:18 PM)Biohazard(08-02-2010, 02:44 PM)mk216v(08-01-2010, 10:58 PM)Biohazard Looks like I'm going to have to try to weld up a header when I get back from Bonneville... LOL
I'm also planning on swapping on my ported cylinder head, but I don't want to post up a pic because it's not as sexy as this one!
Anyone with a (Superflow) flow bench?
I have a suggestion in OR if needed....he has been porting some of the finest watercooled VW (gas/petrol) heads for 30yrs. I could ask him if he'd be interesting with providing flow data.
If they're willing to volunteer time, I'll cover the shipping both ways. Or, Drive the heads down myself if its cheaper. I'm just between Tacoma and Seattle.
I'll ask, thanks for the offer on S&H both ways.
It's a 617A head or ???
He's outside McMinnville, so ~1hr SW of Portland. S&H would be less I imagine.
Sweet! My ported head is a 617a turbo head. The stock head is a greasy 80 300D non turbo head. Port / valve size is, to the best of my knowledge, identical to the turbo ones. I know of the differences in cam grind, cam finish, sodium valves, etc. But for flow bench numbers, it should suffice. Let me know if your guy would be willing to volunteer some bench time! I know where McMinnville is, I have a friend down that way. Wouldn't be a bad excuse to take a trip.
Gives me a good reason to hot tank that head too... Currently, the grease is doing its job preventing rust.
82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin (Gone): 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, ported/polished cylinder head.
84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. 300DT front swaybar. C320 17" wheels. Now with the Flyin Pumpkins engine!
08-04-2010, 11:55 PM
#20
(08-04-2010, 12:20 AM)Biohazard(08-03-2010, 06:49 PM)mk216v(08-02-2010, 07:18 PM)Biohazard(08-02-2010, 02:44 PM)mk216v(08-01-2010, 10:58 PM)Biohazard Looks like I'm going to have to try to weld up a header when I get back from Bonneville... LOL
I'm also planning on swapping on my ported cylinder head, but I don't want to post up a pic because it's not as sexy as this one!
Anyone with a (Superflow) flow bench?
I have a suggestion in OR if needed....he has been porting some of the finest watercooled VW (gas/petrol) heads for 30yrs. I could ask him if he'd be interesting with providing flow data.
If they're willing to volunteer time, I'll cover the shipping both ways. Or, Drive the heads down myself if its cheaper. I'm just between Tacoma and Seattle.
I'll ask, thanks for the offer on S&H both ways.
It's a 617A head or ???
He's outside McMinnville, so ~1hr SW of Portland. S&H would be less I imagine.
Sweet! My ported head is a 617a turbo head. The stock head is a greasy 80 300D non turbo head. Port / valve size is, to the best of my knowledge, identical to the turbo ones. I know of the differences in cam grind, cam finish, sodium valves, etc. But for flow bench numbers, it should suffice. Let me know if your guy would be willing to volunteer some bench time! I know where McMinnville is, I have a friend down that way. Wouldn't be a bad excuse to take a trip.
Just throwing this out there--any way to find a stock 617A head, just so we're comparing apples to apples in case there happens to be a difference in the non-A vs A?
I'll contact him tomorrow first to see if he has some spare time to provide.
1980 W460 300GD LWB 4spd manual, AKA "Radio Flyer"
(08-04-2010, 12:20 AM)Biohazard(08-03-2010, 06:49 PM)mk216v(08-02-2010, 07:18 PM)Biohazard(08-02-2010, 02:44 PM)mk216v(08-01-2010, 10:58 PM)Biohazard Looks like I'm going to have to try to weld up a header when I get back from Bonneville... LOL
I'm also planning on swapping on my ported cylinder head, but I don't want to post up a pic because it's not as sexy as this one!
Anyone with a (Superflow) flow bench?
I have a suggestion in OR if needed....he has been porting some of the finest watercooled VW (gas/petrol) heads for 30yrs. I could ask him if he'd be interesting with providing flow data.
If they're willing to volunteer time, I'll cover the shipping both ways. Or, Drive the heads down myself if its cheaper. I'm just between Tacoma and Seattle.
I'll ask, thanks for the offer on S&H both ways.
It's a 617A head or ???
He's outside McMinnville, so ~1hr SW of Portland. S&H would be less I imagine.
Sweet! My ported head is a 617a turbo head. The stock head is a greasy 80 300D non turbo head. Port / valve size is, to the best of my knowledge, identical to the turbo ones. I know of the differences in cam grind, cam finish, sodium valves, etc. But for flow bench numbers, it should suffice. Let me know if your guy would be willing to volunteer some bench time! I know where McMinnville is, I have a friend down that way. Wouldn't be a bad excuse to take a trip.
Just throwing this out there--any way to find a stock 617A head, just so we're comparing apples to apples in case there happens to be a difference in the non-A vs A?
I'll contact him tomorrow first to see if he has some spare time to provide.
1980 W460 300GD LWB 4spd manual, AKA "Radio Flyer"
08-05-2010, 05:09 AM
#21
(08-04-2010, 11:55 PM)mk216v in case there happens to be a difference in the non-A vs A?
There shouldn't be beyond the camshaft and exhaust valves. None of the SAE or other documentation has mentioned changing the casting, reinforcing anything, coolant flow, etc etc.
What are the serial numbers on the two heads?
This post was last modified: 08-05-2010, 05:14 AM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
08-05-2010, 05:09 AM
#21
(08-04-2010, 11:55 PM)mk216v in case there happens to be a difference in the non-A vs A?
There shouldn't be beyond the camshaft and exhaust valves. None of the SAE or other documentation has mentioned changing the casting, reinforcing anything, coolant flow, etc etc.
What are the serial numbers on the two heads?
08-05-2010, 08:54 AM
#22
82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin (Gone): 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, ported/polished cylinder head.
84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. 300DT front swaybar. C320 17" wheels. Now with the Flyin Pumpkins engine!
I'll get the serial number of the ported 617A head tonight, the n/a head tomorrow. The n/a head is still over at my dads place. I know I've looked at both of them, and I believe the casting numbers are the same. Will verify though.
82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin (Gone): 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, ported/polished cylinder head.
84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. 300DT front swaybar. C320 17" wheels. Now with the Flyin Pumpkins engine!
08-05-2010, 11:05 AM
#23
(08-03-2010, 06:42 PM)DeliveryValve(08-02-2010, 11:38 AM)ConnClark Just to note that inducing swirl and turbulence in an IDI engine isn't going to get you anything. That is the prechamber's job.
Hey Conn, can you explain a bit more as to why swirl is not going to increase efficiency in an IDI?
I understand the prechamber's job in terms of combustion. But I would imagine having intake air swirl it's way in would increase efficiency in combustion in combination with the prechamber and the spent combustion swirling it's way out would increase scavenging of the rest of the gasses.
Even in later pre-chamber head renditions, Mercedes decided to have somewhat a shaped chamber..
603 Head
602 Head
Those examples maybe a bit of a stretch in terms of swirl combustion.
Anyhow It maybe hard to shape the combustion chamber on a 617 though because of the shallow water jacket in between the two valves.
.
DeliveryValve,
Swirling in a DI engine helps flow more air past the injector fuel streams which boosts combustion in the cylinder and evens out the temperature distribution.
With an IDI engine you have the jets of combustion gasses from the prechamber mixing the air and spreading the heat out. The prechamber jets are arranged in such a way to cause several counter rotating vortices. Adding swirl to the air in the chamber is not going to enhance the mixing already being done by the jets of combustion gasses in any significant way. If it would they would angle the prechamber ports in a way to promote it. The same thing goes scavenging the exhaust out of the cylinder.
One thing to keep in mind is that it takes energy to cause the air to swirl. Using the intake ports to do it relies on power taken from the crank. The mixing done by the prechamber ports draws power directly from the combustion avoiding energy conversion losses.
The OM603 and OM602 may have more of a chamber in the head to prevent as much air from going into the prechamber. This might have been done to reduce overall combustion gas temps for emissions or to reduce temps for the aluminum head.
If you want to really help an IDI engine by circulating the air before the compression stroke you need to get it to flow through the prechamber somehow. In the 30's NACA did some experiments by having an intake valve in the prechamber. Of course this would require a whole new head to try it with our engines.
(08-03-2010, 06:42 PM)DeliveryValve(08-02-2010, 11:38 AM)ConnClark Just to note that inducing swirl and turbulence in an IDI engine isn't going to get you anything. That is the prechamber's job.
Hey Conn, can you explain a bit more as to why swirl is not going to increase efficiency in an IDI?
I understand the prechamber's job in terms of combustion. But I would imagine having intake air swirl it's way in would increase efficiency in combustion in combination with the prechamber and the spent combustion swirling it's way out would increase scavenging of the rest of the gasses.
Even in later pre-chamber head renditions, Mercedes decided to have somewhat a shaped chamber..
603 Head
602 Head
Those examples maybe a bit of a stretch in terms of swirl combustion.
Anyhow It maybe hard to shape the combustion chamber on a 617 though because of the shallow water jacket in between the two valves.
.
DeliveryValve,
Swirling in a DI engine helps flow more air past the injector fuel streams which boosts combustion in the cylinder and evens out the temperature distribution.
With an IDI engine you have the jets of combustion gasses from the prechamber mixing the air and spreading the heat out. The prechamber jets are arranged in such a way to cause several counter rotating vortices. Adding swirl to the air in the chamber is not going to enhance the mixing already being done by the jets of combustion gasses in any significant way. If it would they would angle the prechamber ports in a way to promote it. The same thing goes scavenging the exhaust out of the cylinder.
One thing to keep in mind is that it takes energy to cause the air to swirl. Using the intake ports to do it relies on power taken from the crank. The mixing done by the prechamber ports draws power directly from the combustion avoiding energy conversion losses.
The OM603 and OM602 may have more of a chamber in the head to prevent as much air from going into the prechamber. This might have been done to reduce overall combustion gas temps for emissions or to reduce temps for the aluminum head.
If you want to really help an IDI engine by circulating the air before the compression stroke you need to get it to flow through the prechamber somehow. In the 30's NACA did some experiments by having an intake valve in the prechamber. Of course this would require a whole new head to try it with our engines.
08-05-2010, 11:40 AM
#24
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
08-05-2010, 11:40 AM #24Air swirling also helps air flow pass the intake valves as they open!
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
08-05-2010, 11:53 AM
#25
(08-05-2010, 11:05 AM)ConnClark ..... If you want to really help an IDI engine by circulating the air before the compression stroke you need to get it to flow through the prechamber somehow. ....
(08-05-2010, 11:40 AM)willbhere4u Air swirling also helps air flow pass the intake valves as they open!
My thoughts exactly. But I failed to convey that message to Conn earlier.
Again, I would imagine getting more efficient flow of air into the combustion chamber would help in getting more air into the pre-chamber through those tiny jet holes.
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
08-05-2010, 11:53 AM #25(08-05-2010, 11:05 AM)ConnClark ..... If you want to really help an IDI engine by circulating the air before the compression stroke you need to get it to flow through the prechamber somehow. ....
(08-05-2010, 11:40 AM)willbhere4u Air swirling also helps air flow pass the intake valves as they open!
My thoughts exactly. But I failed to convey that message to Conn earlier.
Again, I would imagine getting more efficient flow of air into the combustion chamber would help in getting more air into the pre-chamber through those tiny jet holes.
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
08-05-2010, 01:26 PM
#26
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
08-05-2010, 01:26 PM #26I'm not sure but I don't thing air really needs to get in to the prechamber but fuel dose need to come out of it!
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
08-05-2010, 11:08 PM
#27
Casting number: 617 016 03 01. I forgot I had written down all the numbers on that engine when we were parting out the car.
82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin (Gone): 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, ported/polished cylinder head.
84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. 300DT front swaybar. C320 17" wheels. Now with the Flyin Pumpkins engine!
I've confirmed the casting numbers on both heads are the same; 617 n/a and 617a. Casting number: 617 016 03 01. I forgot I had written down all the numbers on that engine when we were parting out the car.
82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin (Gone): 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, ported/polished cylinder head.
84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. 300DT front swaybar. C320 17" wheels. Now with the Flyin Pumpkins engine!
08-06-2010, 11:59 AM
#28
(08-05-2010, 11:08 PM)Biohazard I've confirmed the casting numbers on both heads are the same; 617 n/a and 617a.
Sweet, thx! I'm waiting to hear from him now...
1980 W460 300GD LWB 4spd manual, AKA "Radio Flyer"
(08-05-2010, 11:08 PM)Biohazard I've confirmed the casting numbers on both heads are the same; 617 n/a and 617a.
Sweet, thx! I'm waiting to hear from him now...
1980 W460 300GD LWB 4spd manual, AKA "Radio Flyer"
08-06-2010, 03:28 PM
#30
(08-06-2010, 01:59 PM)tomnik The pre chambers are bigger in diameter on the lower part on the turbo...
Tom
Good info Tom. I can understand it affecting running operation, but do you think this would affect a flow bench reading?
82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin (Gone): 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, ported/polished cylinder head.
84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. 300DT front swaybar. C320 17" wheels. Now with the Flyin Pumpkins engine!
(08-06-2010, 01:59 PM)tomnik The pre chambers are bigger in diameter on the lower part on the turbo...
Tom
Good info Tom. I can understand it affecting running operation, but do you think this would affect a flow bench reading?
82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin (Gone): 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, ported/polished cylinder head.
84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. 300DT front swaybar. C320 17" wheels. Now with the Flyin Pumpkins engine!
08-06-2010, 07:54 PM
#32
(08-06-2010, 07:13 PM)mk216v ...he has 6 kids now and has no time.
Eek! I have NO kids and NO time. Can't imagine having 6 kids right now... I'd be ragged. Don't suppose you know what he would charge for something like that through the shop?
82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin (Gone): 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, ported/polished cylinder head.
84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. 300DT front swaybar. C320 17" wheels. Now with the Flyin Pumpkins engine!
(08-06-2010, 07:13 PM)mk216v ...he has 6 kids now and has no time.
Eek! I have NO kids and NO time. Can't imagine having 6 kids right now... I'd be ragged. Don't suppose you know what he would charge for something like that through the shop?
82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin (Gone): 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, ported/polished cylinder head.
84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. 300DT front swaybar. C320 17" wheels. Now with the Flyin Pumpkins engine!
08-07-2010, 12:09 AM
#33
I have a few friends locally who are interested but it's a really awkward arrangement. if we did a group purchase, we'd eat the set up cost but the person who comes after would get the deal (setup paid for)
So we're all kicking back to see who makes the first step.
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
There's a race shop in Oakland, CA - they tune gassers for track but the owners are mercedes diesel heads. They said they'd set up a flow/grind system for the 617A head but they wanted about $900 in initial setup/tooling fees.
I have a few friends locally who are interested but it's a really awkward arrangement. if we did a group purchase, we'd eat the set up cost but the person who comes after would get the deal (setup paid for)
So we're all kicking back to see who makes the first step.
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
08-07-2010, 12:24 AM
#34
(08-06-2010, 03:28 PM)Biohazard Good info Tom. I can understand it affecting running operation, but do you think this would affect a flow bench reading?
it was just an info, cause you found out that the casting #s are identical.
Maybe they just increased the lower bore for the turbo PC.
Not affecting air flow but an input for those who think of converting a n/s head to turbo.
Tom
(08-06-2010, 03:28 PM)Biohazard Good info Tom. I can understand it affecting running operation, but do you think this would affect a flow bench reading?
it was just an info, cause you found out that the casting #s are identical.
Maybe they just increased the lower bore for the turbo PC.
Not affecting air flow but an input for those who think of converting a n/s head to turbo.
Tom
08-07-2010, 12:36 AM
#35
(08-07-2010, 12:24 AM)tomnik(08-06-2010, 03:28 PM)Biohazard Good info Tom. I can understand it affecting running operation, but do you think this would affect a flow bench reading?
it was just an info, cause you found out that the casting #s are identical.
Maybe they just increased the lower bore for the turbo PC.
Not affecting air flow but an input for those who think of converting a n/s head to turbo.
Tom
Still good info to have.
I've been thinking of boring out the holes in the PC, like Jeemu did on his, for more flow. But, I still have to get the head swapped on and all that still. Also, still playing with the idea of getting the head o-ringed. Then there is still the possibility of going in on the head flow settup costs that Syncro_G had mentioned. Bah. Too much to spend money on, not enough paycheck coming in. LOL I may just have to skip the flow testing part and just swap the fricken head on already. Lots to do this weekend to finish getting ready for the roadtrip, lots to do when I get back from Bonneville.
82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin (Gone): 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, ported/polished cylinder head.
84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. 300DT front swaybar. C320 17" wheels. Now with the Flyin Pumpkins engine!
(08-07-2010, 12:24 AM)tomnik(08-06-2010, 03:28 PM)Biohazard Good info Tom. I can understand it affecting running operation, but do you think this would affect a flow bench reading?
it was just an info, cause you found out that the casting #s are identical.
Maybe they just increased the lower bore for the turbo PC.
Not affecting air flow but an input for those who think of converting a n/s head to turbo.
Tom
Still good info to have.
I've been thinking of boring out the holes in the PC, like Jeemu did on his, for more flow. But, I still have to get the head swapped on and all that still. Also, still playing with the idea of getting the head o-ringed. Then there is still the possibility of going in on the head flow settup costs that Syncro_G had mentioned. Bah. Too much to spend money on, not enough paycheck coming in. LOL I may just have to skip the flow testing part and just swap the fricken head on already. Lots to do this weekend to finish getting ready for the roadtrip, lots to do when I get back from Bonneville.
82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin (Gone): 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, ported/polished cylinder head.
84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. 300DT front swaybar. C320 17" wheels. Now with the Flyin Pumpkins engine!
08-07-2010, 12:57 PM
#36
(08-06-2010, 07:54 PM)Biohazard(08-06-2010, 07:13 PM)mk216v ...he has 6 kids now and has no time.
Eek! I have NO kids and NO time. Can't imagine having 6 kids right now... I'd be ragged. Don't suppose you know what he would charge for something like that through the shop?
Hehe, I hear ya. I currently have 4 furry kids (ie dogs) and that's enough right now. I can't imagine 6 kids who need the same attention but are also jibber-jabbering. WOW.
The head stuff is a side gig for him as it doesn't bring in enough $ for the shop. He's too busy with sales and building exhausts and such during the day to do anything "uber cool" like heads.
1980 W460 300GD LWB 4spd manual, AKA "Radio Flyer"
(08-06-2010, 07:54 PM)Biohazard(08-06-2010, 07:13 PM)mk216v ...he has 6 kids now and has no time.
Eek! I have NO kids and NO time. Can't imagine having 6 kids right now... I'd be ragged. Don't suppose you know what he would charge for something like that through the shop?
Hehe, I hear ya. I currently have 4 furry kids (ie dogs) and that's enough right now. I can't imagine 6 kids who need the same attention but are also jibber-jabbering. WOW.
The head stuff is a side gig for him as it doesn't bring in enough $ for the shop. He's too busy with sales and building exhausts and such during the day to do anything "uber cool" like heads.
1980 W460 300GD LWB 4spd manual, AKA "Radio Flyer"
08-07-2010, 09:24 PM
#37
I'm going to swap the head on when I get a free weekend after Bonneville Speedweek. Need a set of heatshields and the tool for the prechamber lock rings, then its on like Donkey Kong!
82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin (Gone): 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, ported/polished cylinder head.
84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. 300DT front swaybar. C320 17" wheels. Now with the Flyin Pumpkins engine!
No worries! Never hurts to try, right? I'm going to swap the head on when I get a free weekend after Bonneville Speedweek. Need a set of heatshields and the tool for the prechamber lock rings, then its on like Donkey Kong!
82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin (Gone): 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, ported/polished cylinder head.
84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. 300DT front swaybar. C320 17" wheels. Now with the Flyin Pumpkins engine!
08-10-2010, 02:32 PM
#38
(08-07-2010, 09:24 PM)Biohazard Need....the tool for the prechamber lock rings, then its on like Donkey Kong!
Diesel911 at peachparts.com makes a good cheap lock ring tool. You might want to contact him.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/show...p?t=282469
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
08-10-2010, 02:32 PM #38(08-07-2010, 09:24 PM)Biohazard Need....the tool for the prechamber lock rings, then its on like Donkey Kong!
Diesel911 at peachparts.com makes a good cheap lock ring tool. You might want to contact him.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/show...p?t=282469
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
08-11-2010, 09:06 AM
#39
82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin (Gone): 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, ported/polished cylinder head.
84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. 300DT front swaybar. C320 17" wheels. Now with the Flyin Pumpkins engine!
Thanks for the link! I'll have to look into that.
82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin (Gone): 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, ported/polished cylinder head.
84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. 300DT front swaybar. C320 17" wheels. Now with the Flyin Pumpkins engine!
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