10mm Element Thread
10mm Element Thread
12-24-2009, 10:33 PM
#101
(12-24-2009, 06:38 PM)tomnik(12-24-2009, 04:37 PM)Kiwibacon This will however mean a faster pressure rise and high peak forces on the engine.
Engines do suffer when we crank up the power.
How do you plan to log cylinder pressure? A transducer in the glow-plug hole?
it will not suffer when the pressure peak comes in time with downwards movement of the piston. To get there it the pressure log is necessary.
yes, transducer in glow-plug hole.
I don't have the equipment but the local university might help.
Tom
It will certainly be less if you can keep not only the peak pressure after TDC but the bulk of the pressure rise. But regardless the pressure which provides torque is exerted both upwards on the cylinder head and downwards on the crank and main bearings. To get more power always results in higher stress on the engine.
This post was last modified: 12-24-2009, 10:36 PM by Kiwibacon.
(12-24-2009, 06:38 PM)tomnik(12-24-2009, 04:37 PM)Kiwibacon This will however mean a faster pressure rise and high peak forces on the engine.
Engines do suffer when we crank up the power.
How do you plan to log cylinder pressure? A transducer in the glow-plug hole?
it will not suffer when the pressure peak comes in time with downwards movement of the piston. To get there it the pressure log is necessary.
yes, transducer in glow-plug hole.
I don't have the equipment but the local university might help.
Tom
It will certainly be less if you can keep not only the peak pressure after TDC but the bulk of the pressure rise. But regardless the pressure which provides torque is exerted both upwards on the cylinder head and downwards on the crank and main bearings. To get more power always results in higher stress on the engine.
12-25-2009, 12:49 PM
#103
. Then you must also consider the burn quality that I talked about in my previous post. This is not a trivial problem.
This post was last modified: 12-25-2009, 12:54 PM by GREASY_BEAST.
GREASY_BEAST
12-25-2009, 12:49 PM #103Work = Integral(P•dV). So, what you want is not a "peaky" pressure pulse, but the *correct* fuel delivery duration to ensure that the curve of force on the piston due to the cylinder pressure vs time is as smooth as possible (minimize first derivatives), but also has sufficient area under it to make power. This does not mean shorter injection duration is better, unless tomnik's pressure graph says so . Then you must also consider the burn quality that I talked about in my previous post. This is not a trivial problem.
12-25-2009, 05:02 PM
#104
(12-25-2009, 12:49 PM)GREASY_BEAST Work = Integral(P•dV). So, what you want is not a "peaky" pressure pulse, but the *correct* fuel delivery duration to ensure that the curve of force on the piston due to the cylinder pressure vs time is as smooth as possible (minimize first derivatives), but also has sufficient area under it to make power. This does not mean shorter injection duration is better, unless tomnik's pressure graph says so
Yes it's far from a trivial problem.
The accurate shaping of the pressure curve is the reason commonrail engines can wind so much torque and power out of a lightweight engine. They can maximise power within the limits they've got.
But at the same time, you'll notice that with higher rpm the window for injection time shrinks. So injection has to be faster if you want these higher rpm's. In a mechanical injection motor, higher stress is the price we pay.
(12-25-2009, 12:49 PM)GREASY_BEAST Work = Integral(P•dV). So, what you want is not a "peaky" pressure pulse, but the *correct* fuel delivery duration to ensure that the curve of force on the piston due to the cylinder pressure vs time is as smooth as possible (minimize first derivatives), but also has sufficient area under it to make power. This does not mean shorter injection duration is better, unless tomnik's pressure graph says so
Yes it's far from a trivial problem.
The accurate shaping of the pressure curve is the reason commonrail engines can wind so much torque and power out of a lightweight engine. They can maximise power within the limits they've got.
But at the same time, you'll notice that with higher rpm the window for injection time shrinks. So injection has to be faster if you want these higher rpm's. In a mechanical injection motor, higher stress is the price we pay.
12-26-2009, 03:56 AM
#105
But at a certain point the added fuel has no time to burn completely. First thought might be to advance timing... but then you increase the area below the pressure curve before TDC which means work you have to pay and engine stress increases because the piston moving upwards runs against the already increasing pressure, also your begin of injection takes place when the cylinder pressure due to compression only is lower.
This is the reason why the only correct mod is larger elements (regarding the IP).
I.e. given the same quantity the Floyd elements deliver up to 50% faster.
Now I just want to rethink the BOD respecting this pressure curve.
We want to see a big area under the curve after TDC to put as much as possible of work there to push down the piston and get the turbo spool fast but we don't want to see much work before TDC and on top don't want to be too late with end of injection to burn completely.
Respecting this we can use more of the potential of larger elements with limiting engine stress to a minimum.
This is with the same fuel so we don't need to talk about burning velocity or those things.
Tom
higher quantity means added fuel package in the time window of injection, the end of injection moves to late.
But at a certain point the added fuel has no time to burn completely. First thought might be to advance timing... but then you increase the area below the pressure curve before TDC which means work you have to pay and engine stress increases because the piston moving upwards runs against the already increasing pressure, also your begin of injection takes place when the cylinder pressure due to compression only is lower.
This is the reason why the only correct mod is larger elements (regarding the IP).
I.e. given the same quantity the Floyd elements deliver up to 50% faster.
Now I just want to rethink the BOD respecting this pressure curve.
We want to see a big area under the curve after TDC to put as much as possible of work there to push down the piston and get the turbo spool fast but we don't want to see much work before TDC and on top don't want to be too late with end of injection to burn completely.
Respecting this we can use more of the potential of larger elements with limiting engine stress to a minimum.
This is with the same fuel so we don't need to talk about burning velocity or those things.
Tom
01-15-2010, 09:22 PM
#106
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
01-15-2010, 09:22 PM #106how is this project going?
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
01-15-2010, 10:13 PM
#107
(11-09-2009, 11:48 AM)benztek I know this may be a little premature but if it is possible to dial in the 10mm elements, what size turbo is going to be needed to make use of all the extra fuel?
It'd be a silly goal to use all the available fuel. A better goal is to make use of the shorter injection window that bigger pump elements provide to get a better tune at higher power levels.
(11-09-2009, 11:48 AM)benztek I know this may be a little premature but if it is possible to dial in the 10mm elements, what size turbo is going to be needed to make use of all the extra fuel?
It'd be a silly goal to use all the available fuel. A better goal is to make use of the shorter injection window that bigger pump elements provide to get a better tune at higher power levels.
01-22-2010, 10:20 AM
#109
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Lincolnlock
01-22-2010, 10:20 AM #109I love the silly banter of peak firing pressures and fuel delivery. Just put in some huge elements and test drive. Add enough air to deal with the fuel and have some fun. These cars are like a dollar. [/align]
01-23-2010, 12:22 PM
#110
(01-22-2010, 10:20 AM)Lincolnlock I love the silly banter of peak firing pressures and fuel delivery. Just put in some huge elements and test drive. Add enough air to deal with the fuel and have some fun. These cars are like a dollar.
Get that "silly" stuff wrong and you won't be driving your "dollar" car for long. It's not "fun" per-se to break down.
GREASY_BEAST
01-23-2010, 12:22 PM #110(01-22-2010, 10:20 AM)Lincolnlock I love the silly banter of peak firing pressures and fuel delivery. Just put in some huge elements and test drive. Add enough air to deal with the fuel and have some fun. These cars are like a dollar.
Get that "silly" stuff wrong and you won't be driving your "dollar" car for long. It's not "fun" per-se to break down.
01-23-2010, 02:38 PM
#111
(01-15-2010, 09:22 PM)willbhere4u how is this project going?
Slowly. unbearably so.
I am once again waiting on parts. I ordered some more an fittings to attach an oil line to the turbo, and accidentaly ordered aluminum ones, which I cant weld. I also need to fix a few other serious oil leaks before I fill it back up and drive. One is at the hose connection on my block, the other is a stripped oil pan plug.
I promise to post more pics and vids when I get it driving
(01-15-2010, 09:22 PM)willbhere4u how is this project going?
Slowly. unbearably so.
I am once again waiting on parts. I ordered some more an fittings to attach an oil line to the turbo, and accidentaly ordered aluminum ones, which I cant weld. I also need to fix a few other serious oil leaks before I fill it back up and drive. One is at the hose connection on my block, the other is a stripped oil pan plug.
I promise to post more pics and vids when I get it driving
02-06-2010, 10:58 PM
#113
KTA-Cummins
02-06-2010, 10:58 PM #113So did anyone else notice the stock 5.5 elements have timing advance built into them? I would say your 10mm pump definitely needs to be retarded to make it run well. I would start with port closure at 16deg BTDC or so.
02-07-2010, 02:25 AM
#114
(02-06-2010, 10:58 PM)KTA-Cummins So did anyone else notice the stock 5.5 elements have timing advance built into them?
you mean the edge at the to of the plunger?
If yes, this retards the timing but only at idle. This is old style to quiet the idle at times when nozzles and injectors were not so far developed.
With 5.5mm elements it makes some sense to start delivery as early as possible to limit end of injection being not too late. With larger elements begin of injection can/should or even must be retarded otherwise too much fuel is injected before TDC especially in the low/mid power range.
The 24 deg was calculated with the quantity injected to start burning in such a manner that the main burn develops right after TDC ans not ending too late.
Only the energy created after TDC is producing power the part before TDC is reducing this power and stressing the engine.
Tom
(02-06-2010, 10:58 PM)KTA-Cummins So did anyone else notice the stock 5.5 elements have timing advance built into them?
you mean the edge at the to of the plunger?
If yes, this retards the timing but only at idle. This is old style to quiet the idle at times when nozzles and injectors were not so far developed.
With 5.5mm elements it makes some sense to start delivery as early as possible to limit end of injection being not too late. With larger elements begin of injection can/should or even must be retarded otherwise too much fuel is injected before TDC especially in the low/mid power range.
The 24 deg was calculated with the quantity injected to start burning in such a manner that the main burn develops right after TDC ans not ending too late.
Only the energy created after TDC is producing power the part before TDC is reducing this power and stressing the engine.
Tom
03-03-2010, 10:00 AM
#116
82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin (Gone): 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, ported/polished cylinder head.
84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. 300DT front swaybar. C320 17" wheels. Now with the Flyin Pumpkins engine!
Hello!
82 300SD aka The Flyin Pumpkin (Gone): 7.5mm super M-pump, T3 60 trim turbo, Coldish air intake, A/W intercooler, propane injection, SW Boost and EGT gauges, Monark 265 nozzles, ported/polished cylinder head.
84 Euro 300D 4 sp: White with black trunk and hood. Blue cloth interior. Manual everything. 300DT front swaybar. C320 17" wheels. Now with the Flyin Pumpkins engine!
03-15-2010, 12:20 AM
#117
Heres a minor update...
got the turbo, etc. bolted back up. Ran it today. At first, I had the timing set to 26btdc, and it nailed like crazy. I guess that I just didnt hear it before over the sound of the exhaust. I eventually set the timing to 15btdc, which is where it is in the following video. It still seems to nail a bit when I go wot from idle. I think that I will retard the timing a bit more, and see if that helps things.
I took it for a short drive right after I shot the video, and it doesnt really seem any faster than it was before. However that may be because of the huge turbo lag. My boost gauge shows nothing until about 3000 rpm and then goes up to 8-10. Is this the normal behavior of the stock turbo? Ill have a better sense of the difference once I get it out on the highway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eryj9oXNhuM
Hello,
Heres a minor update...
got the turbo, etc. bolted back up. Ran it today. At first, I had the timing set to 26btdc, and it nailed like crazy. I guess that I just didnt hear it before over the sound of the exhaust. I eventually set the timing to 15btdc, which is where it is in the following video. It still seems to nail a bit when I go wot from idle. I think that I will retard the timing a bit more, and see if that helps things.
I took it for a short drive right after I shot the video, and it doesnt really seem any faster than it was before. However that may be because of the huge turbo lag. My boost gauge shows nothing until about 3000 rpm and then goes up to 8-10. Is this the normal behavior of the stock turbo? Ill have a better sense of the difference once I get it out on the highway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eryj9oXNhuM
03-15-2010, 12:31 AM
#118
Ich liebe meine Autos!
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | 156K Miles | 2nd Owner | EGR Disabled [Removal Pending] | ALDA Removed | Straight Pipes | GT2256V??? | Laser Interceptor | Engine swap over summer, hopefully with GT2256V attached...
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | Odo Stopped at 160K (at least 50K more) | EGR Disabled | ALDA All The Way Out | Straight pipes | FM-870 Remote Start Alarm System | B100 Biodiesel | AC Fixed x2 | Trunk crushed in
| Retired to garage.Excessive speeding? It ain't excessive till I redline!
Definitely doesn't seem normal for the turbo, I get boost well below 3000 on hard acceleration, only mods are a manual boost controller and the ALDA removed.
Ich liebe meine Autos!
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | 156K Miles | 2nd Owner | EGR Disabled [Removal Pending] | ALDA Removed | Straight Pipes | GT2256V??? | Laser Interceptor | Engine swap over summer, hopefully with GT2256V attached...
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | Odo Stopped at 160K (at least 50K more) | EGR Disabled | ALDA All The Way Out | Straight pipes | FM-870 Remote Start Alarm System | B100 Biodiesel | AC Fixed x2 | Trunk crushed in
| Retired to garage.Excessive speeding? It ain't excessive till I redline!
03-15-2010, 01:22 AM
#119
Strange the nailing when accelerating.
But my explanation is: The elements can not be filled completely within this short time and this will cause the temporary nailing.
I had exactly the same on my stock 603a when the lift pump was not o.k.
To be sure install a fuel gauge right before the IP and see the drop in pressure when pushing the pedal.
Tom
I would not say that idle nailing is too bad (from what I hear in the video).
Strange the nailing when accelerating.
But my explanation is: The elements can not be filled completely within this short time and this will cause the temporary nailing.
I had exactly the same on my stock 603a when the lift pump was not o.k.
To be sure install a fuel gauge right before the IP and see the drop in pressure when pushing the pedal.
Tom
03-15-2010, 02:02 PM
#120
(03-15-2010, 01:22 AM)tomnik I would not say that idle nailing is too bad (from what I hear in the video).
Strange the nailing when accelerating.
But my explanation is: The elements can not be filled completely within this short time and this will cause the temporary nailing.
I had exactly the same on my stock 603a when the lift pump was not o.k.
To be sure install a fuel gauge right before the IP and see the drop in pressure when pushing the pedal.
Tom
That sounds like something to look into, although I dont understand the physics behind it. Can you elaborate on that?
I changed all of the fuel filters when I got the car, but other that that I have no Idea what the condition of the fuel system is. I will go pick up a gauge to see whats going on. what is the normal pressure range going into the IP?
I think that I will also start running bio to clean things out a bit.
Thanks for the input
(03-15-2010, 01:22 AM)tomnik I would not say that idle nailing is too bad (from what I hear in the video).
Strange the nailing when accelerating.
But my explanation is: The elements can not be filled completely within this short time and this will cause the temporary nailing.
I had exactly the same on my stock 603a when the lift pump was not o.k.
To be sure install a fuel gauge right before the IP and see the drop in pressure when pushing the pedal.
Tom
That sounds like something to look into, although I dont understand the physics behind it. Can you elaborate on that?
I changed all of the fuel filters when I got the car, but other that that I have no Idea what the condition of the fuel system is. I will go pick up a gauge to see whats going on. what is the normal pressure range going into the IP?
I think that I will also start running bio to clean things out a bit.
Thanks for the input
03-15-2010, 02:14 PM
#121
Ich liebe meine Autos!
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | 156K Miles | 2nd Owner | EGR Disabled [Removal Pending] | ALDA Removed | Straight Pipes | GT2256V??? | Laser Interceptor | Engine swap over summer, hopefully with GT2256V attached...
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | Odo Stopped at 160K (at least 50K more) | EGR Disabled | ALDA All The Way Out | Straight pipes | FM-870 Remote Start Alarm System | B100 Biodiesel | AC Fixed x2 | Trunk crushed in
| Retired to garage.Excessive speeding? It ain't excessive till I redline!
If thats the problem, I would stretch the pressure regulator spring a bit so that the lift pump provides a higher pressure to the IP. You might want to look into an aux fuel pump if it helps...
Ich liebe meine Autos!
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | 156K Miles | 2nd Owner | EGR Disabled [Removal Pending] | ALDA Removed | Straight Pipes | GT2256V??? | Laser Interceptor | Engine swap over summer, hopefully with GT2256V attached...
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | Odo Stopped at 160K (at least 50K more) | EGR Disabled | ALDA All The Way Out | Straight pipes | FM-870 Remote Start Alarm System | B100 Biodiesel | AC Fixed x2 | Trunk crushed in
| Retired to garage.Excessive speeding? It ain't excessive till I redline!
03-15-2010, 02:43 PM
#123
Rolf, I don't think the nailing is caused by the ALDA. All over performance yes but the nailing indicates the lift pump.
IP supply pressure is min. 1 bar, the more the better up to 2.5 bar.
Do the test with the gauge I bet you can see the pressure drop when pushing the pedal.
Tom
the 10mm elements eat up much fuel in the gallery of the IP within a very short time. I faced the described nailing when on my stock engine the lift pump was not perfect.
Rolf, I don't think the nailing is caused by the ALDA. All over performance yes but the nailing indicates the lift pump.
IP supply pressure is min. 1 bar, the more the better up to 2.5 bar.
Do the test with the gauge I bet you can see the pressure drop when pushing the pedal.
Tom
03-15-2010, 02:44 PM
#124
(03-15-2010, 02:32 PM)winmutt The alda is still on, is it functional? Is it limiting fuel?
As far as I know, yes the ALDA is working... It doesnt seem to be very effective in controlling smoke though
Why does lack of fuel cause nailing? I thought nailing was from preignition
This post was last modified: 03-15-2010, 02:48 PM by shredator.
03-15-2010, 02:48 PM
#125
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
Is the ALDA dialed in all the way? I was thinking of it as a way to limit the amount of fuel pressure needed until the engine RPM overtook the initial lack of fuel. EG get the engine spinning a bit more before opening the flood gates
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
03-15-2010, 02:59 PM
#126
But yeah, dialing it back sounds like something I will try.
I dont really know where it is set. If you scroll back to the picture showing the calibration numbers, the second and third rows show the difference in qty with differing pressures on the ALDA. I dont really know how to interpret those numbers other than simply comparing them to the std values.
But yeah, dialing it back sounds like something I will try.
03-17-2010, 05:35 PM
#128
(01-22-2010, 10:20 AM)Lincolnlock I love the silly banter of peak firing pressures and fuel delivery. Just put in some huge elements and test drive. Add enough air to deal with the fuel and have some fun. These cars are like a dollar.
No shit, right...I just saw a 400 dollar W115 240D with late model alloys on CL, been sitting and need an IP, but who cares? What, that might come to a couple afternoons of work, and total out to the 700 bucks my 240D was running and driving with steelies and a stock stereo? It's the same thing when you talk about turbocharging the 616 - it's viewed as a throwaway motor due to its low power (all the redneck stories of using them to power water pumps on farms and whatnot), meanwhile everyone wants the 5 cylinder, because they're going to go Finn and build a 'really powerful' $10k motor, as though you couldn't throw ten grand at any motor and come away with some decent power out of it. If I had all that money to blow on a car it won't be a W123, that's for sure...
These cars used to be big money, they're probably not going to be again ever. It's a Benz, yeah, it's a Benz I spent less than I would have on a ten year old Malibu if it passed smog. I had one of the rarest Suzuki bikes out there, a GS550M Katana, and I ended up selling it painted, running, but needed a starter for 400 bucks. I paid 450. Unpainted. My cousin summed it up: "rare and no one cares". Frankly, if people got wise to these cars we'd be shit out of luck because then they'd be as much as the later model or R series stuff. Same thing with my 914, all of those snobby douches getting bent out of shape over what could have easily been the MkIII Karmann Ghia, giving the SBC and Subaru swap guys crap because they should have shelled out 2k for a 120hp Porsche motor with parts costs through the roof, because it's 'proper' and you don't 'ruin the car with a radiator' like Porsche did themselves because aircooled only makes sense in certain conditions and is generally more trouble than it's worth, which is why every manufacturer abandoned it. Even Harley did, and if the rubes were buying V-Rods instead of Softails the Evo would go bye-bye too.
But you can't tell people anything. They're still going to pay more for a Sportster than can kinda-sorta hang with modern bikes in sports riding than they will for a Suzuki boulevard that will basically destroy all but the fastest modified Hogs bone stock, or the Honda equivalent (bigger pistons than a 426 Hemi), or Yamaha, or...
Frankly I think the people with the most modest expectations will get the most out of a 300D - manual trans, some kind of intercooler, VGT, cut springs and Bilstein HDs on your choice of wheels running at least 205s, and you'll have a very competent, Benz Diesel alternative to going with a contemporary Bimmer, but if you want to drag race this car...why? It's all wrong for it. Better to go with the car's strengths - no Mustang or Camaro makes this good of a long distance highway/commuter car, and no W123 is going to make as good of a drag car with out a serious (probably not a OM6-nothin', really) motor and likely a solid axle conversion. Keeping to easily obtainable mods like the ones I listed would yield a European sports sedan of the kind Benz should have build (well, if it'd had the turbos to do it with). Even a K26 equipped manual trans 300D would be comparable to a similar Bimmer, which if you could the 190D would be a 5 series, which weren't exactly rocketships nor flyweights either. Comparing it to the beefy new Bimmer diesel motor is frankly shooting for failure - you want a fast diesel and got 6 grand, I've seen $4k TDIs a lot lately, get one and put 2k into it and laugh at the people still trying to make their 617as faster than a base model Civic.
All of the good cheap motors to make the 123 go aren't diesel, or aren't powerful if they are, all the really kickin' diesel motors aren't cheap, and frankly still aren't fast without a load of investment. 3k dollars will get you an LS1, T56, and the computer and harness to run it. Frankly, by the time the 617a is putting out quote-unquote "real" power you could have swapped in a Duramax and have to start figuring out how to keep the rear end from spontaneously disassembling itself in a violent manner. It's not that it can't be done, but I hope you have more time and money than I do. I could convert my 914 to V8 - or even TDI! - power for less money than it's going to take to get a 3500lb sedan running a 617a to not be embarrased by almost any midsize sedan on the road with any driver capable of simply standing on the go pedal. A V8 914 is never, ever going to get touched by any diesel Benz, especially dollar for dollar. I strongly suggest people really look at what they have in their driveways before getting pie in the sky dreams of 450hp diesel Benzes that are 'cheap'. Most people get these cars with an eye on frugality, all of which will go out the window with a car modded to even 300hp, and I have yet to see the W123/617a with a 300hp dyno sheet and/or decent timeslip in America. As a matter of fact, I've seen nothing really but drift type videos, which tends to confirm my suspicion that you're not going to get a stock suspension W123 to hook with any decent amount of power.
It's like saying the Ecotec motors can make 1000hp with 'some stock components'. Yeah, like the block, and a severely ported 'stock' head. I'm sure it's way streetable, too, and still gets 35mpg, too, right? Another pie in the sky rich guy motor.
I mean, an LS6 motor - 400hp, 400tq, more torque than a contemporary M3 does at peak at idle, 6500rpm redline, 28mpg in six speed Vette on the highway and a nice smooth idle. This motor costs 4k new. It's really no more complicated than any other SBC to install in any RWD car or truck on the planet. Done right it would be a smog legal 400hp with Chevy servicable stock components in all 50 states as long as the car is older than the ECU and is set up with the proper cats, etc. It's also designed to last at least 100k miles of tire abusing redline chasing lead foot driving. How long is that high mileage overstressed stock rotator going to last at 300, much less 400, horsepower? The real answer to that question is you don't know because unless you have a guy that built a motor say, 10 years ago, and has driven the balls off of it for 100k or more verified miles, that it would, and that's just one example. Can anyone point to one?
Sorry, I could rant all day on this (obviously). Again, I think an economical, cheap, easy to build diesel powered sports sedan could be had, with some variation points for satisfying individual style, can be had (at least in SoCal) for about 2500 bucks. However I'm about to take the pictures for a writeup of the 240D that I think will be the value leader, as it's stupidly cheap and easy to make this car into a 'full sized Miata' that gets 30mpg no matter how hard it's driven, isn't susceptible to the turbo engine's problems (a plus in my desert climate) and best of all costs almost nothing to build compared to anything else out there.
All I can say in my defense is that I remember buying a trio of abused MR2's because they looked so good on paper, and they're Toyotas so of course they're reliable, and after they and the money was gone my cousin said, "I don't know, man, I totally expected you to come up with some Camaro..." and I thought about it, and I could have had a decent third gen for that price, especially on the east coast since they weren't almost all Cali smogmobiles. Around the time I was buttoning up my SE-R to take my $3k loss (which alone would have paid for my now-fictional Camaro, or a Cummins Dodge that would pay for itself with the work it could have done, or...) he picked up a Paxton supercharged 89 5.0l Mustang with rebuilt T5WC, 3.73s, 16" Ponies, stripes, stupid stereo...there was an article where the same 'charger was bolted to a bone stock 5.0 with just upsized injectors and an exhaust system - 375 hp at the wheels, and my cousin put a Mac system on there to match up to the Mac headers, so yeah, around 350hp for 2500 bucks. My SE-R used to feel fast, he wouldn't drive it as hard as I would - scared!
He was scared, I was pissed - 5 grand on a factory hotrod econocar with coilovers and 150hp, 2500 bucks for a built 350+ hp muscle car that could have coerced into turning with the other half of the funds...I used to think the SCC 240SX was cool until I realized it's motor cost 10k to build for 275 hp at the wheels. Go shopping for the car you don't think you can afford before you start dumping money into the 'I'm going to be a pioneer and be fast in the car no one thinks is worth a damn' pit is all I'm saying. Sometimes there's a reason no sane person builds a certain kind of car.
/raining on everyone's parade
CID Vicious
03-17-2010, 05:35 PM #128(01-22-2010, 10:20 AM)Lincolnlock I love the silly banter of peak firing pressures and fuel delivery. Just put in some huge elements and test drive. Add enough air to deal with the fuel and have some fun. These cars are like a dollar.
No shit, right...I just saw a 400 dollar W115 240D with late model alloys on CL, been sitting and need an IP, but who cares? What, that might come to a couple afternoons of work, and total out to the 700 bucks my 240D was running and driving with steelies and a stock stereo? It's the same thing when you talk about turbocharging the 616 - it's viewed as a throwaway motor due to its low power (all the redneck stories of using them to power water pumps on farms and whatnot), meanwhile everyone wants the 5 cylinder, because they're going to go Finn and build a 'really powerful' $10k motor, as though you couldn't throw ten grand at any motor and come away with some decent power out of it. If I had all that money to blow on a car it won't be a W123, that's for sure...
These cars used to be big money, they're probably not going to be again ever. It's a Benz, yeah, it's a Benz I spent less than I would have on a ten year old Malibu if it passed smog. I had one of the rarest Suzuki bikes out there, a GS550M Katana, and I ended up selling it painted, running, but needed a starter for 400 bucks. I paid 450. Unpainted. My cousin summed it up: "rare and no one cares". Frankly, if people got wise to these cars we'd be shit out of luck because then they'd be as much as the later model or R series stuff. Same thing with my 914, all of those snobby douches getting bent out of shape over what could have easily been the MkIII Karmann Ghia, giving the SBC and Subaru swap guys crap because they should have shelled out 2k for a 120hp Porsche motor with parts costs through the roof, because it's 'proper' and you don't 'ruin the car with a radiator' like Porsche did themselves because aircooled only makes sense in certain conditions and is generally more trouble than it's worth, which is why every manufacturer abandoned it. Even Harley did, and if the rubes were buying V-Rods instead of Softails the Evo would go bye-bye too.
But you can't tell people anything. They're still going to pay more for a Sportster than can kinda-sorta hang with modern bikes in sports riding than they will for a Suzuki boulevard that will basically destroy all but the fastest modified Hogs bone stock, or the Honda equivalent (bigger pistons than a 426 Hemi), or Yamaha, or...
Frankly I think the people with the most modest expectations will get the most out of a 300D - manual trans, some kind of intercooler, VGT, cut springs and Bilstein HDs on your choice of wheels running at least 205s, and you'll have a very competent, Benz Diesel alternative to going with a contemporary Bimmer, but if you want to drag race this car...why? It's all wrong for it. Better to go with the car's strengths - no Mustang or Camaro makes this good of a long distance highway/commuter car, and no W123 is going to make as good of a drag car with out a serious (probably not a OM6-nothin', really) motor and likely a solid axle conversion. Keeping to easily obtainable mods like the ones I listed would yield a European sports sedan of the kind Benz should have build (well, if it'd had the turbos to do it with). Even a K26 equipped manual trans 300D would be comparable to a similar Bimmer, which if you could the 190D would be a 5 series, which weren't exactly rocketships nor flyweights either. Comparing it to the beefy new Bimmer diesel motor is frankly shooting for failure - you want a fast diesel and got 6 grand, I've seen $4k TDIs a lot lately, get one and put 2k into it and laugh at the people still trying to make their 617as faster than a base model Civic.
All of the good cheap motors to make the 123 go aren't diesel, or aren't powerful if they are, all the really kickin' diesel motors aren't cheap, and frankly still aren't fast without a load of investment. 3k dollars will get you an LS1, T56, and the computer and harness to run it. Frankly, by the time the 617a is putting out quote-unquote "real" power you could have swapped in a Duramax and have to start figuring out how to keep the rear end from spontaneously disassembling itself in a violent manner. It's not that it can't be done, but I hope you have more time and money than I do. I could convert my 914 to V8 - or even TDI! - power for less money than it's going to take to get a 3500lb sedan running a 617a to not be embarrased by almost any midsize sedan on the road with any driver capable of simply standing on the go pedal. A V8 914 is never, ever going to get touched by any diesel Benz, especially dollar for dollar. I strongly suggest people really look at what they have in their driveways before getting pie in the sky dreams of 450hp diesel Benzes that are 'cheap'. Most people get these cars with an eye on frugality, all of which will go out the window with a car modded to even 300hp, and I have yet to see the W123/617a with a 300hp dyno sheet and/or decent timeslip in America. As a matter of fact, I've seen nothing really but drift type videos, which tends to confirm my suspicion that you're not going to get a stock suspension W123 to hook with any decent amount of power.
It's like saying the Ecotec motors can make 1000hp with 'some stock components'. Yeah, like the block, and a severely ported 'stock' head. I'm sure it's way streetable, too, and still gets 35mpg, too, right? Another pie in the sky rich guy motor.
I mean, an LS6 motor - 400hp, 400tq, more torque than a contemporary M3 does at peak at idle, 6500rpm redline, 28mpg in six speed Vette on the highway and a nice smooth idle. This motor costs 4k new. It's really no more complicated than any other SBC to install in any RWD car or truck on the planet. Done right it would be a smog legal 400hp with Chevy servicable stock components in all 50 states as long as the car is older than the ECU and is set up with the proper cats, etc. It's also designed to last at least 100k miles of tire abusing redline chasing lead foot driving. How long is that high mileage overstressed stock rotator going to last at 300, much less 400, horsepower? The real answer to that question is you don't know because unless you have a guy that built a motor say, 10 years ago, and has driven the balls off of it for 100k or more verified miles, that it would, and that's just one example. Can anyone point to one?
Sorry, I could rant all day on this (obviously). Again, I think an economical, cheap, easy to build diesel powered sports sedan could be had, with some variation points for satisfying individual style, can be had (at least in SoCal) for about 2500 bucks. However I'm about to take the pictures for a writeup of the 240D that I think will be the value leader, as it's stupidly cheap and easy to make this car into a 'full sized Miata' that gets 30mpg no matter how hard it's driven, isn't susceptible to the turbo engine's problems (a plus in my desert climate) and best of all costs almost nothing to build compared to anything else out there.
All I can say in my defense is that I remember buying a trio of abused MR2's because they looked so good on paper, and they're Toyotas so of course they're reliable, and after they and the money was gone my cousin said, "I don't know, man, I totally expected you to come up with some Camaro..." and I thought about it, and I could have had a decent third gen for that price, especially on the east coast since they weren't almost all Cali smogmobiles. Around the time I was buttoning up my SE-R to take my $3k loss (which alone would have paid for my now-fictional Camaro, or a Cummins Dodge that would pay for itself with the work it could have done, or...) he picked up a Paxton supercharged 89 5.0l Mustang with rebuilt T5WC, 3.73s, 16" Ponies, stripes, stupid stereo...there was an article where the same 'charger was bolted to a bone stock 5.0 with just upsized injectors and an exhaust system - 375 hp at the wheels, and my cousin put a Mac system on there to match up to the Mac headers, so yeah, around 350hp for 2500 bucks. My SE-R used to feel fast, he wouldn't drive it as hard as I would - scared!
He was scared, I was pissed - 5 grand on a factory hotrod econocar with coilovers and 150hp, 2500 bucks for a built 350+ hp muscle car that could have coerced into turning with the other half of the funds...I used to think the SCC 240SX was cool until I realized it's motor cost 10k to build for 275 hp at the wheels. Go shopping for the car you don't think you can afford before you start dumping money into the 'I'm going to be a pioneer and be fast in the car no one thinks is worth a damn' pit is all I'm saying. Sometimes there's a reason no sane person builds a certain kind of car.
/raining on everyone's parade
03-17-2010, 07:53 PM
#129
![[Image: MB-190DTM-04-1024.jpg]](http://www.carondesktop.com/d/14462-2/MB-190DTM-04-1024.jpg)
And It's MY Money Pit God-Damnit. Plus man this is Mercedes.. No one here expects it to be cheap, these are lifelong projects, although W123 's arn't the best setup for everything there are some things they do very well. You try in any other station-wagon for under $2000 that you could hit a tight narrow U off-ramp going like 80-85 and come out without under steering strait off the road. I don't recommend trying it, passengers get scared haha..
Ahem.. My Car Was Already Fast.... So your not raining in on my parade.
And It's MY Money Pit God-Damnit. Plus man this is Mercedes.. No one here expects it to be cheap, these are lifelong projects, although W123 's arn't the best setup for everything there are some things they do very well. You try in any other station-wagon for under $2000 that you could hit a tight narrow U off-ramp going like 80-85 and come out without under steering strait off the road. I don't recommend trying it, passengers get scared haha..
03-17-2010, 09:16 PM
#130
But I always love driving my big smoken Benz
This post was last modified: 12-18-2010, 12:02 PM by willbhere4u.
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
03-17-2010, 09:16 PM #130I've already got fast my Elise Turbo will do 60 in under 4sec
But I always love driving my big smoken Benz
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
03-17-2010, 09:52 PM
#131
There's plenty of Benz options out there for going fast, I'm personally not convinced that diesel is a 'worth it' option myself for doing so. I enjoy watching the development process but frankly it won't be my dollars...not to say that there isn't a decent medium but I always it kind of curious, picking a European car for drag racing...
Frankly, an OM616/T powered car might be able to do well depending on rules in autocross...of course any kind of V8 powered 124, but again, I just want to point out that a 'stupid fast' OM-powered anything is a 'cubic dollars' type project. I've seen what some of the guys have in their 914s - whether stock, Raby powered, Porsche /6 conversions, Subie, Chevy, whatever, and it's humbling. So not to say someone who mods an oil burning Benz is 'throwing their money away' but it's not exactly high on the value (cost/benefit) chart. I'd love a V8 powered E class, Chevy or Benz doesn't matter, but in my opinion the chasing of the big-power OM is for other people. Of course now I have something more 'worthwhile' in my book so my 240D is back to solely daily driver status anyway, just my personal opinion. I like to throw some counterpoint in there, sad to hear someone get 3k into a 12k project before they realize they're never going to complete it. Again, know what you really want. Having a daily and a snot-beater-outer tends to work for me, some people want it all in one package. If that's the case then a Benz is a good place to start.
CID Vicious
03-17-2010, 09:52 PM #131Nice, not a W123 and likely not 617a powered, but nice.
There's plenty of Benz options out there for going fast, I'm personally not convinced that diesel is a 'worth it' option myself for doing so. I enjoy watching the development process but frankly it won't be my dollars...not to say that there isn't a decent medium but I always it kind of curious, picking a European car for drag racing...
Frankly, an OM616/T powered car might be able to do well depending on rules in autocross...of course any kind of V8 powered 124, but again, I just want to point out that a 'stupid fast' OM-powered anything is a 'cubic dollars' type project. I've seen what some of the guys have in their 914s - whether stock, Raby powered, Porsche /6 conversions, Subie, Chevy, whatever, and it's humbling. So not to say someone who mods an oil burning Benz is 'throwing their money away' but it's not exactly high on the value (cost/benefit) chart. I'd love a V8 powered E class, Chevy or Benz doesn't matter, but in my opinion the chasing of the big-power OM is for other people. Of course now I have something more 'worthwhile' in my book so my 240D is back to solely daily driver status anyway, just my personal opinion. I like to throw some counterpoint in there, sad to hear someone get 3k into a 12k project before they realize they're never going to complete it. Again, know what you really want. Having a daily and a snot-beater-outer tends to work for me, some people want it all in one package. If that's the case then a Benz is a good place to start.
03-17-2010, 11:03 PM
#132
I really don't see how any redneck with a stick welder can put a 350 in any-god-damn-thing, but the Benz guys - some of whom are professional mechanics and engineers and whatnot - are petrified. It's not hard. If I honestly had 1500 bucks right now that I didn't want or need to spend on other stuff I'd do it. I could easily do it for less, given the right CL/PAP scores. I already have the five speed transmission to go behind it should I so desire. However, as 400Eric has pointed out, for the same money or even less you can get a used 400E/E420 in decent condition. Add another G or less for a 123 daily driver and there you go. Or not.
I'm not necessarily saying it's not possible - certainly not - or not worth it - very well could be. My 240D is certainly more fun to drive than the numbers would attest to. But I'm not concerned so much with the guys who are already hip-deep or better into the whole thing, but for those considering it and stumbling upon this conversation. It's best to see what the cost actually is, because more often than not, someone is hot rodding something because he wants something else he doesn't perceive as being able to afford. However if you go through the whole process and add it all up oftentimes you're better off just getting the car you want, whether it's a later model diesel Benz, or whatever.
Really, the best thing I can say, realistically, about the 240D is that if you absolutely don't care about acceleration times it's the best sedan in the world, especially for under a grand. The 300D is better as a commuter and 'faster' but not more fun in my experience. Like driving a Miata and then getting into a 626...for comfortable highway cruising while sipping fuel in a full sized car it's great. The 240D manual even makes a great canyon runner with a few mods. But I've yet to see someone post some goods up - Forced is held back by a lack of a myna pump, and apparently the guys with Myna pumps aren't dishing on the output. Then you see some Finn motor with custom everything making 400+ hp at 6000+rpm and it looks real cool before you realize the cost. Like I said, those with fairly modest expectations in the power department will find the most for their money, after all look at any comparable BMW - not exactly huge dyno numbers, not that that keeps them from supposedly being the 'ultimate driving machine'.
All I'm saying, is once you start getting into updating the cars, all of a sudden a used TDI looks pretty damn good.
CID Vicious
03-17-2010, 11:03 PM #132My question is: who's got one? So far the guy with the 'hottest' OM617a this side of the pond that I've seen is FI's, and it's running a what, 18 second 1/4? I've yet to see a dyno sheet with 200 plus that was both OM617 and in North America.
I really don't see how any redneck with a stick welder can put a 350 in any-god-damn-thing, but the Benz guys - some of whom are professional mechanics and engineers and whatnot - are petrified. It's not hard. If I honestly had 1500 bucks right now that I didn't want or need to spend on other stuff I'd do it. I could easily do it for less, given the right CL/PAP scores. I already have the five speed transmission to go behind it should I so desire. However, as 400Eric has pointed out, for the same money or even less you can get a used 400E/E420 in decent condition. Add another G or less for a 123 daily driver and there you go. Or not.
I'm not necessarily saying it's not possible - certainly not - or not worth it - very well could be. My 240D is certainly more fun to drive than the numbers would attest to. But I'm not concerned so much with the guys who are already hip-deep or better into the whole thing, but for those considering it and stumbling upon this conversation. It's best to see what the cost actually is, because more often than not, someone is hot rodding something because he wants something else he doesn't perceive as being able to afford. However if you go through the whole process and add it all up oftentimes you're better off just getting the car you want, whether it's a later model diesel Benz, or whatever.
Really, the best thing I can say, realistically, about the 240D is that if you absolutely don't care about acceleration times it's the best sedan in the world, especially for under a grand. The 300D is better as a commuter and 'faster' but not more fun in my experience. Like driving a Miata and then getting into a 626...for comfortable highway cruising while sipping fuel in a full sized car it's great. The 240D manual even makes a great canyon runner with a few mods. But I've yet to see someone post some goods up - Forced is held back by a lack of a myna pump, and apparently the guys with Myna pumps aren't dishing on the output. Then you see some Finn motor with custom everything making 400+ hp at 6000+rpm and it looks real cool before you realize the cost. Like I said, those with fairly modest expectations in the power department will find the most for their money, after all look at any comparable BMW - not exactly huge dyno numbers, not that that keeps them from supposedly being the 'ultimate driving machine'.
All I'm saying, is once you start getting into updating the cars, all of a sudden a used TDI looks pretty damn good.
03-18-2010, 05:45 AM
#133
(03-17-2010, 11:03 PM)CID Vicious So far the guy with the 'hottest' OM617a this side of the pond that I've seen is FI's, and it's running a what, 18 second 1/4?
Thats limited by the injection pump.
ForcedInduction
03-18-2010, 05:45 AM
#133
(03-17-2010, 11:03 PM)CID Vicious So far the guy with the 'hottest' OM617a this side of the pond that I've seen is FI's, and it's running a what, 18 second 1/4?
Thats limited by the injection pump.
03-18-2010, 08:30 AM
#134
In a few weeks we will see if in fact Myna, if I am pronouncing it right, rhymes with where they get their elements, is not the only alternative for more fuel....Then I will have the most badass 617 this side of the pond...Muwahahahahahahahaha
My pump is on the bench as we speak and has a lovely home awaiting
1982 300SD: 304,xxx Super M-pump with 7.5mm elements, 265 Nozzles, GT35 water cooled turbo, M90 Supercharger, A/W Intercooler, Serpentine drive belt, 3" SS exhaust with Magnaflow muffler, 240 breather, AEM dry Filter, Manual Boost Control, EGT / Boost / EMP gauges....Moved on to other projects
1995 F-350 7.3L PSD: 230,xxx 6.0 IC, DIY Stage 1 Injectors, 17* hpop, Tony Wildman Chip, John Wood Trans, 6.4L TC, 3" down pipe, 4" straight exhaust, 310 HP on wheel dyno - 8500# dually: 0-60 in 6.98
Suzuki Samurai: VW 1.9L TD, Trackick doubler transfer case (made by me) 5.8:1 transfer case gears, YJ springs front and rear with rear missing links, wheel base extended 14", diffs welded, some day a VNT.
Rudolf_Diesel
03-18-2010, 08:30 AM #134No intention to hijack, I hope this project yields success as I do for anyone attempting that which is said to be impossible or improbable.
In a few weeks we will see if in fact Myna, if I am pronouncing it right, rhymes with where they get their elements, is not the only alternative for more fuel....Then I will have the most badass 617 this side of the pond...Muwahahahahahahahaha
My pump is on the bench as we speak and has a lovely home awaiting
1982 300SD: 304,xxx Super M-pump with 7.5mm elements, 265 Nozzles, GT35 water cooled turbo, M90 Supercharger, A/W Intercooler, Serpentine drive belt, 3" SS exhaust with Magnaflow muffler, 240 breather, AEM dry Filter, Manual Boost Control, EGT / Boost / EMP gauges....Moved on to other projects
1995 F-350 7.3L PSD: 230,xxx 6.0 IC, DIY Stage 1 Injectors, 17* hpop, Tony Wildman Chip, John Wood Trans, 6.4L TC, 3" down pipe, 4" straight exhaust, 310 HP on wheel dyno - 8500# dually: 0-60 in 6.98
Suzuki Samurai: VW 1.9L TD, Trackick doubler transfer case (made by me) 5.8:1 transfer case gears, YJ springs front and rear with rear missing links, wheel base extended 14", diffs welded, some day a VNT.
03-18-2010, 08:59 AM
#135
(03-17-2010, 11:03 PM)CID Vicious I really don't see how any redneck with a stick welder can put a 350 in any-god-damn-thing, but the Benz guys - some of whom are professional mechanics and engineers and whatnot - are petrified. It's not hard.I think it's because the Benz guys are used to, and expect, a Benz-level finished product. Any redneck can do a crappy job. Duct tape, bailing wire, and JB Weld are not acceptable on an MB. We want it done RIGHT, and that is damned difficult, not to mention expensive.
(03-17-2010, 11:03 PM)CID Vicious However, as 400Eric has pointed out, for the same money or even less you can get a used 400E/E420 in decent condition.I agree with that 100%. Add another couple G's and you can move into a beater 500E. ~300hp out of the box, no mods required. The 4.2L can even manage 25mpg on the freeway - nearly identical to many W123 diesels, with literally triple the power on tap! Note that I own both an E420 and 500E/E500, along with a W124 / OM603 diesel.
(03-17-2010, 11:03 PM)CID Vicious All I'm saying, is once you start getting into updating the cars, all of a sudden a used TDI looks pretty damn good.And that's why nobody wants to put a SBC into an MB. But swapping an IP and adding an intercooler to double the power is relatively simple. Is it worth the $2-3k? Depends on the chassis... on a W123, the ROI is awfully low. On a W126, a little better. On a W124/W140, it's a lot better; particularly if the recipient is already in top condition.
Dave M.
Boise, ID, USA
1997 E420 - 149kmi (Bugeyes)
1994 E420 - 136kmi (Blondie)
1994 E500 - 116kmi (Q-ship)
1992 500E - 179kmi (Mach 5)
1987 300D - 330kmi (Sportline Stage 2)
Click here for my website!
(03-17-2010, 11:03 PM)CID Vicious I really don't see how any redneck with a stick welder can put a 350 in any-god-damn-thing, but the Benz guys - some of whom are professional mechanics and engineers and whatnot - are petrified. It's not hard.I think it's because the Benz guys are used to, and expect, a Benz-level finished product. Any redneck can do a crappy job. Duct tape, bailing wire, and JB Weld are not acceptable on an MB. We want it done RIGHT, and that is damned difficult, not to mention expensive.
(03-17-2010, 11:03 PM)CID Vicious However, as 400Eric has pointed out, for the same money or even less you can get a used 400E/E420 in decent condition.I agree with that 100%. Add another couple G's and you can move into a beater 500E. ~300hp out of the box, no mods required. The 4.2L can even manage 25mpg on the freeway - nearly identical to many W123 diesels, with literally triple the power on tap! Note that I own both an E420 and 500E/E500, along with a W124 / OM603 diesel.
(03-17-2010, 11:03 PM)CID Vicious All I'm saying, is once you start getting into updating the cars, all of a sudden a used TDI looks pretty damn good.And that's why nobody wants to put a SBC into an MB. But swapping an IP and adding an intercooler to double the power is relatively simple. Is it worth the $2-3k? Depends on the chassis... on a W123, the ROI is awfully low. On a W126, a little better. On a W124/W140, it's a lot better; particularly if the recipient is already in top condition.
Dave M.
Boise, ID, USA
1997 E420 - 149kmi (Bugeyes)
1994 E420 - 136kmi (Blondie)
1994 E500 - 116kmi (Q-ship)
1992 500E - 179kmi (Mach 5)
1987 300D - 330kmi (Sportline Stage 2)
Click here for my website!
03-18-2010, 11:20 AM
#136
Track Proven Chassis
Safety & Security
High Powered Turbodiesl Diesel Engine ( Reliable and suitable for high revving ) Bolt-In OM60X
Manual Transmission Bolt-In
Obtainable in the US
W201-4-Life
If you wanted bang-4-buck you should get a honda. Not high on looks or confort, but parts are everywhere and obtainable for cheap, plug-n-play running.. BMW isn't bad either. But M21 Diesels Suck, M51 wasn't sold in the USA.
But that's not what I wanted when I set out with building 'my' dream car.
TDI's Suck Period and So does VW, My Mom has one.. It eats $800 camshafts and has injection pump problems from time-to-time, if you want to work on it, the engine/transmission your pulling it out of the car everytime and it's still FWD.. It's not a bad daily driver, but it's not made to be *pushed* really stock. Made For Grandma's By Grampa Porsche.
Yeah, we like Mercedes Diesels. Whats more expensive then that. Uhh NOTHING unless it comes from italy!!! But easier for us that don't like CIS/EFI conversions and like diesel simplicity. What other rear-wheel-drive car that you can think of off the top of your head here that can offer:
Track Proven Chassis
Safety & Security
High Powered Turbodiesl Diesel Engine ( Reliable and suitable for high revving ) Bolt-In OM60X
Manual Transmission Bolt-In
Obtainable in the US
W201-4-Life
If you wanted bang-4-buck you should get a honda. Not high on looks or confort, but parts are everywhere and obtainable for cheap, plug-n-play running.. BMW isn't bad either. But M21 Diesels Suck, M51 wasn't sold in the USA.
But that's not what I wanted when I set out with building 'my' dream car.
TDI's Suck Period and So does VW, My Mom has one.. It eats $800 camshafts and has injection pump problems from time-to-time, if you want to work on it, the engine/transmission your pulling it out of the car everytime and it's still FWD.. It's not a bad daily driver, but it's not made to be *pushed* really stock. Made For Grandma's By Grampa Porsche.
03-29-2010, 07:07 PM
#137
CID Vicious I'm not necessarily saying it's not possible - certainly not - or not worth it - very well could be. My 240D is certainly more fun to drive than the numbers would attest to. But I'm not concerned so much with the guys who are already hip-deep or better into the whole thing, but for those considering it and stumbling upon this conversation. It's best to see what the cost actually is,I certainly agree with CID here. Whether or not any of this is “worth it” remains to be seen. Let me be very clear to anyone stumbling onto this thread:
This is all EXPERIMENTAL. This is not a routine, sure-fire way to increase the power of an old mercedes diesel. There are no “bolt on” mods for these engines. If folks are after “easy power”, there are much easier ways to get it. (03-17-2010, 05:35 PM)CID Vicious Sometimes there's a reason no sane person builds a certain kind of car.I think I know what you mean, but on the other hand, some combos out there that have been “done to death” because they are so easy. Personally, when it comes to modified cars, think that the “insane” (though not necessarily dollar-wise) builds are always the most interesting. The builds that I like the most are the ones where the builder was successful by being clever, and not by blindly following a “recipe”.
(03-17-2010, 05:35 PM)CID Vicious /raining on everyone's paradeLol, and I just discovered that my car leaks on the passenger side. Doh.
And btw I enjoy reading your “rants”. But in order to save the scrolling fingers of other forum readers, I am going to paraphrase the following two points which I gleaned:
CID Vicious ... these cars are so cheap that there will be no ROI on any money spent on mods...
CID Vicious … there are other options for making power that are cheaper. By the time a 617a is modded far enough to make “real power”, it will have taken more money than it would have taken to go with a different configuration...
No one can deny this, and I agree in that I think that for a lot of people, these are important things to keep in mind when looking at these old Benzes. If someone is modifying cars for the sole purpose of obtaining the greatest performance increase per dollar, then they should probably go with a proven platform and proven power-making “recipe”.
personally, I am not too worried about max ROI. If modding cars was my job, then maybe I would be. However this is a hobby, and so the value of this project is in the entertainment and therapeutic values, and not something like resale value. If the project turns out to be a total failure, I am perfectly happy with calling it a loss an pawning the car off on the next wannabe-veggie-oil-burning hippie college student that wanders within my sights (this town is full of them). I will not be spending enough money on this project to change that attitude until I become more certain that this pump will perform as desired over the longer term.
fwiw, I am still well under the $3k mark, including the car itself, pump, a couple of turbos, and material for an exhaust system. What I can see possibly pushing me over 3k, is head studs and o-ringing, and replacing broken parts. But then, that will also be an indication of success. If the car makes enough power to start breaking things, I think that it will have enough power to make it worth replacing/upgrading them.
(03-17-2010, 09:52 PM)CID Vicious All I'm saying, is once you start getting into updating the cars, all of a sudden a used TDI looks pretty damn good.ughh! No they dont.
oh yeah, back to the actual project... I took it out on the highway. It does seem a bit quicker on the on-ramp than it was before, but its not dramatic. once up to speed, the power is definately better than before. I am pretty sure that this is because I am driving it without the bowden cable attached, which is causing the bad acceleration. I have yet to try manually shifing it.
The EGTs get up to the danger zone pretty quickly, and I have to let up. I need to get the boost turned up and see if that helps.
occasionally, at idle, and when in-gear, the governor seems to loose control of the pump, and the idle speed ocillates at about 1-sec intervals. It sounds like some wild supercharged gas engines that I have heard, which is sorta neat, but will probably get annoying if this ever ends up being a daily driver.
the previously mentioned nailing problem only seems to happen when the engine is cold.
Ill get some driving vids posted when I get the thing registered
This post was last modified: 03-29-2010, 08:00 PM by shredator.
CID Vicious I'm not necessarily saying it's not possible - certainly not - or not worth it - very well could be. My 240D is certainly more fun to drive than the numbers would attest to. But I'm not concerned so much with the guys who are already hip-deep or better into the whole thing, but for those considering it and stumbling upon this conversation. It's best to see what the cost actually is,I certainly agree with CID here. Whether or not any of this is “worth it” remains to be seen. Let me be very clear to anyone stumbling onto this thread:
This is all EXPERIMENTAL. This is not a routine, sure-fire way to increase the power of an old mercedes diesel. There are no “bolt on” mods for these engines. If folks are after “easy power”, there are much easier ways to get it. (03-17-2010, 05:35 PM)CID Vicious Sometimes there's a reason no sane person builds a certain kind of car.I think I know what you mean, but on the other hand, some combos out there that have been “done to death” because they are so easy. Personally, when it comes to modified cars, think that the “insane” (though not necessarily dollar-wise) builds are always the most interesting. The builds that I like the most are the ones where the builder was successful by being clever, and not by blindly following a “recipe”.
(03-17-2010, 05:35 PM)CID Vicious /raining on everyone's paradeLol, and I just discovered that my car leaks on the passenger side. Doh.
And btw I enjoy reading your “rants”. But in order to save the scrolling fingers of other forum readers, I am going to paraphrase the following two points which I gleaned:
CID Vicious ... these cars are so cheap that there will be no ROI on any money spent on mods...
CID Vicious … there are other options for making power that are cheaper. By the time a 617a is modded far enough to make “real power”, it will have taken more money than it would have taken to go with a different configuration...
No one can deny this, and I agree in that I think that for a lot of people, these are important things to keep in mind when looking at these old Benzes. If someone is modifying cars for the sole purpose of obtaining the greatest performance increase per dollar, then they should probably go with a proven platform and proven power-making “recipe”.
personally, I am not too worried about max ROI. If modding cars was my job, then maybe I would be. However this is a hobby, and so the value of this project is in the entertainment and therapeutic values, and not something like resale value. If the project turns out to be a total failure, I am perfectly happy with calling it a loss an pawning the car off on the next wannabe-veggie-oil-burning hippie college student that wanders within my sights (this town is full of them). I will not be spending enough money on this project to change that attitude until I become more certain that this pump will perform as desired over the longer term.
fwiw, I am still well under the $3k mark, including the car itself, pump, a couple of turbos, and material for an exhaust system. What I can see possibly pushing me over 3k, is head studs and o-ringing, and replacing broken parts. But then, that will also be an indication of success. If the car makes enough power to start breaking things, I think that it will have enough power to make it worth replacing/upgrading them.
(03-17-2010, 09:52 PM)CID Vicious All I'm saying, is once you start getting into updating the cars, all of a sudden a used TDI looks pretty damn good.ughh! No they dont.
oh yeah, back to the actual project... I took it out on the highway. It does seem a bit quicker on the on-ramp than it was before, but its not dramatic. once up to speed, the power is definately better than before. I am pretty sure that this is because I am driving it without the bowden cable attached, which is causing the bad acceleration. I have yet to try manually shifing it.
The EGTs get up to the danger zone pretty quickly, and I have to let up. I need to get the boost turned up and see if that helps.
occasionally, at idle, and when in-gear, the governor seems to loose control of the pump, and the idle speed ocillates at about 1-sec intervals. It sounds like some wild supercharged gas engines that I have heard, which is sorta neat, but will probably get annoying if this ever ends up being a daily driver.
the previously mentioned nailing problem only seems to happen when the engine is cold.
Ill get some driving vids posted when I get the thing registered
05-15-2010, 06:27 PM
#139
Ich liebe meine Autos!
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | 156K Miles | 2nd Owner | EGR Disabled [Removal Pending] | ALDA Removed | Straight Pipes | GT2256V??? | Laser Interceptor | Engine swap over summer, hopefully with GT2256V attached...
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | Odo Stopped at 160K (at least 50K more) | EGR Disabled | ALDA All The Way Out | Straight pipes | FM-870 Remote Start Alarm System | B100 Biodiesel | AC Fixed x2 | Trunk crushed in
| Retired to garage.Excessive speeding? It ain't excessive till I redline!
Any updates? Would love to hear it worked out, I'd like to see something >=7mm for the MW that works before I'm ready for a pump swap...
Ich liebe meine Autos!
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | 156K Miles | 2nd Owner | EGR Disabled [Removal Pending] | ALDA Removed | Straight Pipes | GT2256V??? | Laser Interceptor | Engine swap over summer, hopefully with GT2256V attached...
1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD | Odo Stopped at 160K (at least 50K more) | EGR Disabled | ALDA All The Way Out | Straight pipes | FM-870 Remote Start Alarm System | B100 Biodiesel | AC Fixed x2 | Trunk crushed in
| Retired to garage.Excessive speeding? It ain't excessive till I redline!
05-15-2010, 11:05 PM
#140
I took it out on the freeway a few more times, and tried manually shifting on the onramps. That certainly helped it feel quicker. Sorry, I forgot to make videos as promised. as far as Im concerned, the pump works fine enough, and should be capable of delivering adequate fuel for my future needs. I think that there is something wrong with the turbo that was on the car. I tried clamping off the wastegate hose, and still couldnt get any more than 10psi, and boost didnt come on until ~3500 rpm. So the car is back in the garage for a turbo transplant at the moment.
05-16-2010, 12:55 AM
#141
the timing is at 15deg now?
Could you set it even later (let's say 12-10 deg) to see what changes?
Maybe you don't bring enough energy in the down stroke combustion cycle.
It would be interesting do see the changes of just retarding the timing.
Tom
(05-15-2010, 11:05 PM)shredator I took it out on the freeway a few more times, and tried manually shifting on the onramps. That certainly helped it feel quicker. Sorry, I forgot to make videos as promised. as far as Im concerned, the pump works fine enough, and should be capable of delivering adequate fuel for my future needs. I think that there is something wrong with the turbo that was on the car. I tried clamping off the wastegate hose, and still couldnt get any more than 10psi, and boost didnt come on until ~3500 rpm. So the car is back in the garage for a turbo transplant at the moment.
Hi,
the timing is at 15deg now?
Could you set it even later (let's say 12-10 deg) to see what changes?
Maybe you don't bring enough energy in the down stroke combustion cycle.
It would be interesting do see the changes of just retarding the timing.
Tom
(05-15-2010, 11:05 PM)shredator I took it out on the freeway a few more times, and tried manually shifting on the onramps. That certainly helped it feel quicker. Sorry, I forgot to make videos as promised. as far as Im concerned, the pump works fine enough, and should be capable of delivering adequate fuel for my future needs. I think that there is something wrong with the turbo that was on the car. I tried clamping off the wastegate hose, and still couldnt get any more than 10psi, and boost didnt come on until ~3500 rpm. So the car is back in the garage for a turbo transplant at the moment.
07-28-2010, 05:37 PM
#142
Going back to the first page with the output specs of this pump. It looks like the pump was set to the stock settings. With turning the throttle stop screw 4 turns you are only seeing a 25% increase in fuel. So the only change is the time in which the fuel is entering the precup. I don't think the engine can burn it at that short of an interval. The engine that used these plungers is a direct injection 5.5 liter 180 hp with a max rpm of 2800.
12-17-2010, 08:46 PM
#144
Anyone else up to play a game of roulette with these?
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
Price for the 10mm plunger sets is still 12.50 each, I've got a wild hair to get a set just to mess around with...
Anyone else up to play a game of roulette with these?
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
12-19-2010, 08:35 AM
#146
(12-17-2010, 08:46 PM)300D50 Price for the 10mm plunger sets is still 12.50 each, I've got a wild hair to get a set just to mess around with...
Anyone else up to play a game of roulette with these?
Are we talking about for the MW. I like to play.
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
DeliveryValve
12-19-2010, 08:35 AM #146(12-17-2010, 08:46 PM)300D50 Price for the 10mm plunger sets is still 12.50 each, I've got a wild hair to get a set just to mess around with...
Anyone else up to play a game of roulette with these?
Are we talking about for the MW. I like to play.
.
Gota love Mercedes Diesels!
.
12-19-2010, 02:07 PM
#148
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
12-20-2010, 07:34 PM
#150
I'll be waiting a bit before ordering, in case someone else wants to get something from them. Figure it'll cut down on shipping charges n the long run.
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
Not sure, you can check their site though.
I'll be waiting a bit before ordering, in case someone else wants to get something from them. Figure it'll cut down on shipping charges n the long run.
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
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