NA gas engine wont start
NA gas engine wont start
10-10-2013, 02:29 PM
#1
it just wont start. I figured it was a weak or dead battery so I charged it.
once I did that, it started but that was once, two weeks ago on a warm day.
so far the battery has kept its charge and when I try to start it, it wont turn. So i figured it was fuel. I replaced the filter, still no start.
I have read online that the fuel pump might be the culprit, they said to turn the key and then listen where the fuel pump cover is to see if you can hear it work, but I cant hear a thing.
can this be it? Any advice on a NA gas engine?
Purplecomputer
10-10-2013, 02:29 PM #1so im trying to figure out whats wrong with my girlfriends 98 subaru outback.
it just wont start. I figured it was a weak or dead battery so I charged it.
once I did that, it started but that was once, two weeks ago on a warm day.
so far the battery has kept its charge and when I try to start it, it wont turn. So i figured it was fuel. I replaced the filter, still no start.
I have read online that the fuel pump might be the culprit, they said to turn the key and then listen where the fuel pump cover is to see if you can hear it work, but I cant hear a thing.
can this be it? Any advice on a NA gas engine?
10-10-2013, 02:39 PM
#2
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
sassparilla_kid
10-10-2013, 02:39 PM #2I'm guessing fuel pump, although I suppose it could be something related to the sparking plugs/distributor/etc
-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
10-10-2013, 05:28 PM
#3
By far the easiest way to diagnose a modern engine is with a computer but there are a couple of simple checks with gas engines. Pull an injector and see if it sprays and pull a plug and see if it sparks. At least then you know what area to look at. Check for blown fuses as well. Are you getting any engine check lights? Know anyone with an OBD2 scanner?
10-11-2013, 02:57 PM
#5
Pop the hose off the fuel filter LH strut tower and see if there is any pressure then crank engine over and see if you get any fuel. Be careful I would put the hose in a cup of some sort in case it is working and spews out
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
10-11-2013, 02:57 PM #5fuel pump. That's went bad on mine. It could also be the crank position sensor middle top front of engine below alternator. I had an interment no start when it was hot and that was my culprit.
Pop the hose off the fuel filter LH strut tower and see if there is any pressure then crank engine over and see if you get any fuel. Be careful I would put the hose in a cup of some sort in case it is working and spews out
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
10-11-2013, 03:16 PM
#6
(10-11-2013, 02:57 PM)willbhere4u fuel pump. That's went bad on mine. It could also be the crank position sensor middle top front of engine below alternator. I had an interment no start when it was hot and that was my culprit.
Pop the hose off the fuel filter LH strut tower and see if there is any pressure then crank engine over and see if you get any fuel. Be careful I would put the hose in a cup of some sort in case it is working and spews out
Thanks ill give that a shot.
i just need to replace the actual pump itself? Theres nothing I need to order along with the pump becuase I see kits on rockauto that contain different things and then just the pump itself.
Purplecomputer
10-11-2013, 03:16 PM #6(10-11-2013, 02:57 PM)willbhere4u fuel pump. That's went bad on mine. It could also be the crank position sensor middle top front of engine below alternator. I had an interment no start when it was hot and that was my culprit.
Pop the hose off the fuel filter LH strut tower and see if there is any pressure then crank engine over and see if you get any fuel. Be careful I would put the hose in a cup of some sort in case it is working and spews out
Thanks ill give that a shot.
i just need to replace the actual pump itself? Theres nothing I need to order along with the pump becuase I see kits on rockauto that contain different things and then just the pump itself.
10-11-2013, 05:45 PM
#7
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
10-11-2013, 05:45 PM #7I got a junk yard pump and put it on my bracket and put it back in. If its a wagon it's located behind the RH rear seat under the board for the rear carpet. In a sedan I think its under the rear seat
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
10-12-2013, 11:06 AM
#8
(10-11-2013, 05:45 PM)willbhere4u I got a junk yard pump and put it on my bracket and put it back in. If its a wagon it's located behind the RH rear seat under the board for the rear carpet. In a sedan I think its under the rear seat
I was thinking, I have one of those "universal" fuel pumps. can i use this?
She needs the car probably by monday and the local auto part stores have the pump for about $80 while on the interwebz its around $30 and with the whole shipping aspect, the weekend, monday being a holiday. It probably wont leave the warehouse until tuesday and get here by the end of the week.
This post was last modified: 10-12-2013, 11:12 AM by Purplecomputer.
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10-12-2013, 11:06 AM #8(10-11-2013, 05:45 PM)willbhere4u I got a junk yard pump and put it on my bracket and put it back in. If its a wagon it's located behind the RH rear seat under the board for the rear carpet. In a sedan I think its under the rear seat
I was thinking, I have one of those "universal" fuel pumps. can i use this?
She needs the car probably by monday and the local auto part stores have the pump for about $80 while on the interwebz its around $30 and with the whole shipping aspect, the weekend, monday being a holiday. It probably wont leave the warehouse until tuesday and get here by the end of the week.
Attached Files
Image(s)
10-12-2013, 12:23 PM
#9
(10-12-2013, 11:06 AM)Purplecomputer(10-11-2013, 05:45 PM)willbhere4u I got a junk yard pump and put it on my bracket and put it back in. If its a wagon it's located behind the RH rear seat under the board for the rear carpet. In a sedan I think its under the rear seat
I was thinking, I have one of those "universal" fuel pumps. can i use this?
She needs the car probably by monday and the local auto part stores have the pump for about $80 while on the interwebz its around $30 and with the whole shipping aspect, the weekend, monday being a holiday. It probably wont leave the warehouse until tuesday and get here by the end of the week.
id order the right pump and give her a lift until you have it in hand. Gas application fuel pressure is gonna be a lot higher than old diesels. like 60-150psi even for older cars, let alone your gfs subaru.
That pump you show a pic of looks like a 6.5 diesel primer pump, pressure output is low, like 14-20psi max, plus those are not gas application fittings, gonna be restrictive and dangerous to boot. Save that sucker for your 240
However, first id verify the situation is in fact the fuel pump. Most every gasser has a fuel pressure test port in the engine bay, follow the fuel lines and look for the port that looks like a bike inner tube cap. Get a fuel pressure tester (maybe rentable at auto parts stores), and find out what the pump output is.
This post was last modified: 10-12-2013, 12:27 PM by JB3.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
(10-12-2013, 11:06 AM)Purplecomputer(10-11-2013, 05:45 PM)willbhere4u I got a junk yard pump and put it on my bracket and put it back in. If its a wagon it's located behind the RH rear seat under the board for the rear carpet. In a sedan I think its under the rear seat
I was thinking, I have one of those "universal" fuel pumps. can i use this?
She needs the car probably by monday and the local auto part stores have the pump for about $80 while on the interwebz its around $30 and with the whole shipping aspect, the weekend, monday being a holiday. It probably wont leave the warehouse until tuesday and get here by the end of the week.
id order the right pump and give her a lift until you have it in hand. Gas application fuel pressure is gonna be a lot higher than old diesels. like 60-150psi even for older cars, let alone your gfs subaru.
That pump you show a pic of looks like a 6.5 diesel primer pump, pressure output is low, like 14-20psi max, plus those are not gas application fittings, gonna be restrictive and dangerous to boot. Save that sucker for your 240
However, first id verify the situation is in fact the fuel pump. Most every gasser has a fuel pressure test port in the engine bay, follow the fuel lines and look for the port that looks like a bike inner tube cap. Get a fuel pressure tester (maybe rentable at auto parts stores), and find out what the pump output is.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
10-16-2013, 02:18 PM
#10
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
10-16-2013, 02:18 PM #10Well?
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
10-16-2013, 05:40 PM
#11
(10-16-2013, 02:18 PM)Simpler=Better Well?
messed around with it today.
I used my OBD2 reader and it pulled up a few codes this time.
5 pertaining to 02 sensors and 2 pertaining to a neutral safety switch and another 2 for a speed sensor.
Although i replaced the fuel filter a week ago, the can is empty and I tried some starting fluid today and it kinda started but then it wouldnt budge. so it needs fuel!
So i went to autozone prepared to buy a fuel pump for like 1 million dollars but then the autozone guy was like "no dude, its totally a sensor issue you need to like start from the biggest thing and workd you way down to the smallest. probably the whole transmision or something is in gear because of the neutral safety switch" So then I was like
"okay, let me buy starter fluid then"
soooo this just confirms my suspicion that there is no fuel being delivered cause it wont start even with that shit.
ordered the pump off amazon for $40 bucks with next day shipping (love amazon prime) and we will see by friday (the day I can actually install it) if it was the pump or not
This post was last modified: 10-16-2013, 07:23 PM by Purplecomputer.
Purplecomputer
10-16-2013, 05:40 PM #11(10-16-2013, 02:18 PM)Simpler=Better Well?
messed around with it today.
I used my OBD2 reader and it pulled up a few codes this time.
5 pertaining to 02 sensors and 2 pertaining to a neutral safety switch and another 2 for a speed sensor.
Although i replaced the fuel filter a week ago, the can is empty and I tried some starting fluid today and it kinda started but then it wouldnt budge. so it needs fuel!
So i went to autozone prepared to buy a fuel pump for like 1 million dollars but then the autozone guy was like "no dude, its totally a sensor issue you need to like start from the biggest thing and workd you way down to the smallest. probably the whole transmision or something is in gear because of the neutral safety switch" So then I was like
"okay, let me buy starter fluid then"
soooo this just confirms my suspicion that there is no fuel being delivered cause it wont start even with that shit.
ordered the pump off amazon for $40 bucks with next day shipping (love amazon prime) and we will see by friday (the day I can actually install it) if it was the pump or not
10-17-2013, 08:03 AM
#12
(10-16-2013, 05:40 PM)Purplecomputer(10-16-2013, 02:18 PM)Simpler=Better Well?
messed around with it today.
I used my OBD2 reader and it pulled up a few codes this time.
5 pertaining to 02 sensors and 2 pertaining to a neutral safety switch and another 2 for a speed sensor.
Although i replaced the fuel filter a week ago, the can is empty and I tried some starting fluid today and it kinda started but then it wouldnt budge. so it needs fuel!
So i went to autozone prepared to buy a fuel pump for like 1 million dollars but then the autozone guy was like "no dude, its totally a sensor issue you need to like start from the biggest thing and workd you way down to the smallest. probably the whole transmision or something is in gear because of the neutral safety switch" So then I was like
"okay, let me buy starter fluid then"
soooo this just confirms my suspicion that there is no fuel being delivered cause it wont start even with that shit.
ordered the pump off amazon for $40 bucks with next day shipping (love amazon prime) and we will see by friday (the day I can actually install it) if it was the pump or not
what is the fuel pressure? (just reading that subaru does not have test ports, but the pressure for at least a 2003 key on motor not running is 30-40psi)
Is the neutral safety switch operating? many modern cars will not start without it working. Even the old benzes wont.
Have you checked all the fuses?
Fuel pressure regulator?
Cam position sensor?
crank sensor?
Have you verified you are getting spark?
Have you been on the subaru forums? I was just reading some excellent diagnostic advice on one of them.
you need to follow a diagnostic testing procedure, start simple, and eliminate what it can not be via testing. 1. Fuses all good? I once wasted a week on a F250 which turned out to need a fuse, I looked at them and assumed they were good. I was wrong.
All the related sensors can be tested individually, I am sure there are ways to test the pressure regulator and neutral safety switch that have been documented by other owners.
You need to verify gas, spark, and air. You have 4 different codes for speed sensors and neutral safety switch. Identify what the issue is with those first, what exactly is the speed sensor on her subaru and what does it do, how exactly does the neutral safety switch fault impact the cars operation. can they be ignored or could they be creating the problem? You need to know exactly what they do, and what the engine computer will do if there is a fault.
This post was last modified: 10-17-2013, 08:05 AM by JB3.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
(10-16-2013, 05:40 PM)Purplecomputer(10-16-2013, 02:18 PM)Simpler=Better Well?
messed around with it today.
I used my OBD2 reader and it pulled up a few codes this time.
5 pertaining to 02 sensors and 2 pertaining to a neutral safety switch and another 2 for a speed sensor.
Although i replaced the fuel filter a week ago, the can is empty and I tried some starting fluid today and it kinda started but then it wouldnt budge. so it needs fuel!
So i went to autozone prepared to buy a fuel pump for like 1 million dollars but then the autozone guy was like "no dude, its totally a sensor issue you need to like start from the biggest thing and workd you way down to the smallest. probably the whole transmision or something is in gear because of the neutral safety switch" So then I was like
"okay, let me buy starter fluid then"
soooo this just confirms my suspicion that there is no fuel being delivered cause it wont start even with that shit.
ordered the pump off amazon for $40 bucks with next day shipping (love amazon prime) and we will see by friday (the day I can actually install it) if it was the pump or not
what is the fuel pressure? (just reading that subaru does not have test ports, but the pressure for at least a 2003 key on motor not running is 30-40psi)
Is the neutral safety switch operating? many modern cars will not start without it working. Even the old benzes wont.
Have you checked all the fuses?
Fuel pressure regulator?
Cam position sensor?
crank sensor?
Have you verified you are getting spark?
Have you been on the subaru forums? I was just reading some excellent diagnostic advice on one of them.
you need to follow a diagnostic testing procedure, start simple, and eliminate what it can not be via testing. 1. Fuses all good? I once wasted a week on a F250 which turned out to need a fuse, I looked at them and assumed they were good. I was wrong.
All the related sensors can be tested individually, I am sure there are ways to test the pressure regulator and neutral safety switch that have been documented by other owners.
You need to verify gas, spark, and air. You have 4 different codes for speed sensors and neutral safety switch. Identify what the issue is with those first, what exactly is the speed sensor on her subaru and what does it do, how exactly does the neutral safety switch fault impact the cars operation. can they be ignored or could they be creating the problem? You need to know exactly what they do, and what the engine computer will do if there is a fault.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
10-17-2013, 09:24 AM
#13
If you are getting a po420 catalyst below efficiency code very common code on a Subaru it's not the rear o2 sensor. Its the CAT hard fix replace the cats not recommended! Easy fix get a spark plug anti fouler and drill one out and install the o2 sensor in it and put it back in the exhaust it makes the sensor a little less sensitive. The rear o2 sensor is only there to make sure the cats are working and dose not effect the engine in any way. Subaru's are notorious for throwing this code if the cats are not 100%. they will pass emission just fine and that dam code always pops up on cars over 100K
If the front o2 sensor is bad it will cause it to stumble at partial throttle when cruising at steady speeds. But generally will not effect it in any other ways. maybe 1mpg worse than normal
Have you tried starting the car in neutral?
This post was last modified: 10-17-2013, 09:38 AM by willbhere4u.
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
10-17-2013, 09:24 AM #13I have found in the past the transmission speed sensors never go bad but i had one throwing that code and it turned out to be the connector that plugs on to it was not making good enough contact.
If you are getting a po420 catalyst below efficiency code very common code on a Subaru it's not the rear o2 sensor. Its the CAT hard fix replace the cats not recommended! Easy fix get a spark plug anti fouler and drill one out and install the o2 sensor in it and put it back in the exhaust it makes the sensor a little less sensitive. The rear o2 sensor is only there to make sure the cats are working and dose not effect the engine in any way. Subaru's are notorious for throwing this code if the cats are not 100%. they will pass emission just fine and that dam code always pops up on cars over 100K
If the front o2 sensor is bad it will cause it to stumble at partial throttle when cruising at steady speeds. But generally will not effect it in any other ways. maybe 1mpg worse than normal
Have you tried starting the car in neutral?
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
10-17-2013, 02:30 PM
#14
I got spolied with the 240D with almost no sensors!
Ill mess around with it on friday and test and look and make sure according to all your advice
Purplecomputer
10-17-2013, 02:30 PM #14Sweet jesus. Too much work!
I got spolied with the 240D with almost no sensors!
Ill mess around with it on friday and test and look and make sure according to all your advice
10-18-2013, 06:06 AM
#15
Whenever I see Multiple sensor failures I always suspect the is an electrical ground problem or some other common factor. Fuel pump is under the control of the ECU and if the ECU doesn't like what it sees it isnt going to run the pump. You might well be right but it doesn't take long to put a DVM on the pump supply and see if it is actually getting power. Power there, swap the pump, no power you have saved the $$$ and need to look elsewhere.
10-19-2013, 06:29 PM
#16
(10-18-2013, 06:06 AM)Mark_M Whenever I see Multiple sensor failures I always suspect the is an electrical ground problem or some other common factor. Fuel pump is under the control of the ECU and if the ECU doesn't like what it sees it isnt going to run the pump. You might well be right but it doesn't take long to put a DVM on the pump supply and see if it is actually getting power. Power there, swap the pump, no power you have saved the $$$ and need to look elsewhere.
Replaced the fuel pump and you could hear it working now when you turn the key. I got it start but what happens is it revs up and then dies.
Purplecomputer
10-19-2013, 06:29 PM #16(10-18-2013, 06:06 AM)Mark_M Whenever I see Multiple sensor failures I always suspect the is an electrical ground problem or some other common factor. Fuel pump is under the control of the ECU and if the ECU doesn't like what it sees it isnt going to run the pump. You might well be right but it doesn't take long to put a DVM on the pump supply and see if it is actually getting power. Power there, swap the pump, no power you have saved the $$$ and need to look elsewhere.
Replaced the fuel pump and you could hear it working now when you turn the key. I got it start but what happens is it revs up and then dies.
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