Crankcase vent into turbo
Crankcase vent into turbo
08-14-2016, 08:01 AM
#1
Just complcompleted the HX30W instinstall with intercooler on my om617. I have elimeliminated the factory air filter along with the oil condenser from the CCV. Question is can I run the hose directly back into the turbo compressor and right back into the combustion chamber. It is my understanding that priprior to 78' EPA this is how it was done.
08-14-2016, 08:31 AM
#2
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
This is how I have my on my non performance cars. I think for performance it would be ideal to not send crankcase gas through motor but I dont know how much it would hurt.
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
08-14-2016, 09:40 AM
#3
raysorenson
08-14-2016, 09:40 AM #3You don't want to do it on a gas burner because oil has an octane rating of about 30. The only reason not to do it on a diesel is that is something fails and allows too much oil to enter the turbo, the engine can run away. An oil separator device should be used, even if it's just a baffle below the hole in the valve cover.
08-14-2016, 09:45 AM
#4
(08-14-2016, 09:40 AM)raysorenson You don't want to do it on a gas burner because oil has an octane rating of about 30. The only reason not to do it on a diesel is that is something fails and allows too much oil to enter the turbo, the engine can run away. An oil separator device should be used, even if it's just a baffle below the hole in the valve cover.
... a separator device, and a filter, a catch tank or whatever... You do not want to breathe your own fart during running either, I suppose
Every dirty thing that goes in your inlet, will clog it eventualy..
and then you can say "yeaah, but from factory, it is also like that blablabla" ... true :
the factory doesn't want you to have a good car, the factory wants to earn money
Evgeniy1987
08-14-2016, 09:45 AM #4(08-14-2016, 09:40 AM)raysorenson You don't want to do it on a gas burner because oil has an octane rating of about 30. The only reason not to do it on a diesel is that is something fails and allows too much oil to enter the turbo, the engine can run away. An oil separator device should be used, even if it's just a baffle below the hole in the valve cover.
... a separator device, and a filter, a catch tank or whatever... You do not want to breathe your own fart during running either, I suppose
Every dirty thing that goes in your inlet, will clog it eventualy..
and then you can say "yeaah, but from factory, it is also like that blablabla" ... true :
the factory doesn't want you to have a good car, the factory wants to earn money
08-14-2016, 05:07 PM
#6
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
Catch can and vent to atmosphere. Oil will probably pool in your intercooler?
1978 300D, 373,000km... OM617.912 with a Holset HX30W, 7.5mm IP, 711.113 5 speed (project car, 7 years off the road and counting ;/)
1977 250 270,000km (parts car)
1977 300D (ex 280) 500,000km
1981 240D 498,000
1975 HJ45 ???,000
2001 2.8TD Rodeo 4x2 - 456,000 - DD
08-14-2016, 06:35 PM
#7
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4387972
bullonezero
08-14-2016, 06:35 PM #7Consider: Bypassing PCV to exhaust
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4387972
08-15-2016, 06:20 AM
#8
(08-14-2016, 08:01 AM)Evenglass Just complcompleted the HX30W instinstall with intercooler on my om617. I have elimeliminated the factory air filter along with the oil condenser from the CCV. Question is can I run the hose directly back into the turbo compressor and right back into the combustion chamber. It is my understanding that priprior to 78' EPA this is how it was done.
Yes but without the oil condenser you will be pushing oil mist into the turbo inlet?
I delete EGR but personally I keep crank case vent recirculating into the air inlet, it's marginal from a performance perspective but stick a filter on the cam cover breather and it will soon be dripping in oil and will cover the whole engine bay with an oil film which isn't nice..
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
(08-14-2016, 08:01 AM)Evenglass Just complcompleted the HX30W instinstall with intercooler on my om617. I have elimeliminated the factory air filter along with the oil condenser from the CCV. Question is can I run the hose directly back into the turbo compressor and right back into the combustion chamber. It is my understanding that priprior to 78' EPA this is how it was done.
Yes but without the oil condenser you will be pushing oil mist into the turbo inlet?
I delete EGR but personally I keep crank case vent recirculating into the air inlet, it's marginal from a performance perspective but stick a filter on the cam cover breather and it will soon be dripping in oil and will cover the whole engine bay with an oil film which isn't nice..
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
08-15-2016, 03:54 PM
#9
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
Use some good oil separator from actual engine. Those funny catch tanks have little efficiency with condensing oil mist into liquid oil and returning them into oil sump. Some engines of 90s era had vent directly into turbo inltet, there it has condensed in intercooler and intake was filled with oil. This oil also burned and residued on intake valves.. it is shit. For example oil separator from Audi 3.3TDI V8, pretty good centrifugal thing-one inlet for mist, one outlet into intake and down goes oil into sump.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
08-16-2016, 12:53 PM
#10
The Mercedes factory separator in the air cleaner housing is of the cyclonic variety. I learned this after taking it apart. What I ended up doing was taking the top cyclonic portion of the factory Mercedes unit and inserted it into the top of a 1qt paint can, it dits perfectly. Then I'm going to run the vent out the back next to the exhaust pipe.
08-18-2016, 11:48 AM
#11
(08-15-2016, 03:54 PM)starynovy Use some good oil separator from actual engine. Those funny catch tanks have little efficiency with condensing oil mist into liquid oil and returning them into oil sump. Some engines of 90s era had vent directly into turbo inltet, there it has condensed in intercooler and intake was filled with oil. This oil also burned and residued on intake valves.. it is shit. For example oil separator from Audi 3.3TDI V8, pretty good centrifugal thing-one inlet for mist, one outlet into intake and down goes oil into sump.
Tee into turbo oil drain for sump return you think?
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
(08-15-2016, 03:54 PM)starynovy Use some good oil separator from actual engine. Those funny catch tanks have little efficiency with condensing oil mist into liquid oil and returning them into oil sump. Some engines of 90s era had vent directly into turbo inltet, there it has condensed in intercooler and intake was filled with oil. This oil also burned and residued on intake valves.. it is shit. For example oil separator from Audi 3.3TDI V8, pretty good centrifugal thing-one inlet for mist, one outlet into intake and down goes oil into sump.
Tee into turbo oil drain for sump return you think?
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
08-18-2016, 03:46 PM
#12
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
Yes, could be.. or drill block and fit banjo or put banjo bolt with fiting instead of drain bolt on your sump (this was actually done on 2.5TDI)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ex: 525tds 130kW, C250TD 160kW, E320CDI 200kW, ML400CDI 230kW, A6 R5TDI 130kW
Now: Q7 V8TDI 240kW, 320d 150kW, 335d 210kW
08-19-2016, 01:33 AM
#13
Last winter it has frozen solid, causing lots of oil to dump out the turbine ring seal, tons of white smoke until I smashed the ice and let the crankcase pressure out.
I'm just running the CCV hose stuffed into a coke bottle with the top cut off, all the way down to the bottom, then stuff in a bunch of fast food napkins around it so the gas has to percolate up through the napkins. Before I just had the breather open, but it'd coat the wipers in oil mist pretty quickly.
dunno if I'd want to return my oil separator's condensate to the crankcase, it's more than half water
Last winter it has frozen solid, causing lots of oil to dump out the turbine ring seal, tons of white smoke until I smashed the ice and let the crankcase pressure out.
I'm just running the CCV hose stuffed into a coke bottle with the top cut off, all the way down to the bottom, then stuff in a bunch of fast food napkins around it so the gas has to percolate up through the napkins. Before I just had the breather open, but it'd coat the wipers in oil mist pretty quickly.
08-19-2016, 07:07 AM
#14
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
Crank case gases are also like EGR gases and we all know how good EGR is for performance. I dump mine out the back of the car.
87 300SDL OM606 swapped HE351VE 722.633 swapped, Crower cams, KM valvesprings
76 300TD custom lots of stuff
06 Mercedes CL65 AMG 619 WHP, http://TurboTims.com
08-21-2016, 08:32 PM
#15
most effective solution is PCV gasses direct to exhaust via non-return valve. Moroso have been making them for decades. Straightforward. Cheap. Effective. No recirculated shit in your engine. By all means consider an oil separator inline and return to sump, or not. How complex you wish to make it is entirely up to you.
09-01-2016, 07:22 AM
#16
(08-15-2016, 06:20 AM)Hario(08-14-2016, 08:01 AM)Evenglass Just complcompleted the HX30W instinstall with intercooler on my om617. I have elimeliminated the factory air filter along with the oil condenser from the CCV. Question is can I run the hose directly back into the turbo compressor and right back into the combustion chamber. It is my understanding that priprior to 78' EPA this is how it was done.
Yes but without the oil condenser you will be pushing oil mist into the turbo inlet?
I delete EGR but personally I keep crank case vent recirculating into the air inlet, it's marginal from a performance perspective but stick a filter on the cam cover breather and it will soon be dripping in oil and will cover the whole engine bay with an oil film which isn't nice..
I was hoping to keep recirculating crankcase vapour but I used normal silicone intercooler pipes rather than the ones lined with that black stuff... apparently oil attacks them.
Have you had any issues like that?
I'm wondering whether it would pass the MOT with a moroso valve fitted sucking the crankcase fumes out via the exhaust.
charlysays
09-01-2016, 07:22 AM #16(08-15-2016, 06:20 AM)Hario(08-14-2016, 08:01 AM)Evenglass Just complcompleted the HX30W instinstall with intercooler on my om617. I have elimeliminated the factory air filter along with the oil condenser from the CCV. Question is can I run the hose directly back into the turbo compressor and right back into the combustion chamber. It is my understanding that priprior to 78' EPA this is how it was done.
Yes but without the oil condenser you will be pushing oil mist into the turbo inlet?
I delete EGR but personally I keep crank case vent recirculating into the air inlet, it's marginal from a performance perspective but stick a filter on the cam cover breather and it will soon be dripping in oil and will cover the whole engine bay with an oil film which isn't nice..
I was hoping to keep recirculating crankcase vapour but I used normal silicone intercooler pipes rather than the ones lined with that black stuff... apparently oil attacks them.
Have you had any issues like that?
I'm wondering whether it would pass the MOT with a moroso valve fitted sucking the crankcase fumes out via the exhaust.
02-05-2017, 12:35 PM
#18
(02-05-2017, 11:23 AM)bullonezero Here's my approach to itLooks really good. On my current engine the blowby was smokey and a little excessive so I had no choice but to have the engine eat it. I'm building an engine now with very little blowby and valve job, I may try this on it.
02-05-2017, 05:20 PM
#19
If you want to return to inlet - aka a true PCV oil separator (not an EGR oil separator, there is a difference) then you can look into various 'catch-can' solutions.
EGR delete and a PCV oil separator to me are the most logical pairing, for a couple of reasons...
1. egr blanking plate prevents any exhaust gas ccontaminant introduction into the intake.
2. PCV oil separator removes any oil vapour form the intake, preventing it from clogging intercooler, and stops carbon soot buildup. It's been proven to reduce intercooler temps by 10ºC when correctly implemented.
The key is to make sure you use a separator with a proper filter and a large surface area / volume. The small ones are a complete waste of time.
In australia we have a local company that makes them - called Flashlube. They are used extensively in the 4x4 industry because they prevent all the engine damage from oil vapour - i.e. carbon buildup etc. They do sell them internationally. Not sure who your local agent would be though.
Have a read:
http://www.flashlube.com/en/products/catch-can-pro.html
The Moroso valves are not MOT / DOT / EPA 'compliant' on any 'emissions equipped' vehicle. they were strictly for the pre1974 emissions standards.
If you want to return to inlet - aka a true PCV oil separator (not an EGR oil separator, there is a difference) then you can look into various 'catch-can' solutions.
EGR delete and a PCV oil separator to me are the most logical pairing, for a couple of reasons...
1. egr blanking plate prevents any exhaust gas ccontaminant introduction into the intake.
2. PCV oil separator removes any oil vapour form the intake, preventing it from clogging intercooler, and stops carbon soot buildup. It's been proven to reduce intercooler temps by 10ºC when correctly implemented.
The key is to make sure you use a separator with a proper filter and a large surface area / volume. The small ones are a complete waste of time.
In australia we have a local company that makes them - called Flashlube. They are used extensively in the 4x4 industry because they prevent all the engine damage from oil vapour - i.e. carbon buildup etc. They do sell them internationally. Not sure who your local agent would be though.
Have a read:
http://www.flashlube.com/en/products/catch-can-pro.html
02-06-2017, 05:15 PM
#20
(02-05-2017, 11:23 AM)bullonezero Here's my approach to it
That is a dam neat solution!
Can you say if the Moroso valve is just a regular looking check valve with metal insides?
Can't see any for sale on our island,
Beers! HH
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
(02-05-2017, 11:23 AM)bullonezero Here's my approach to it
That is a dam neat solution!
Can you say if the Moroso valve is just a regular looking check valve with metal insides?
Can't see any for sale on our island,
Beers! HH
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
02-06-2017, 11:20 PM
#22
(02-06-2017, 05:15 PM)Hario(02-05-2017, 11:23 AM)bullonezero Here's my approach to it
That is a dam neat solution!
Can you say if the Moroso valve is just a regular looking check valve with metal insides?
Can't see any for sale on our island,
Beers! HH
The Moroso valve is a simple check valve: http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-P...1/10002/-1
bullonezero
02-06-2017, 11:20 PM #22(02-06-2017, 05:15 PM)Hario(02-05-2017, 11:23 AM)bullonezero Here's my approach to it
That is a dam neat solution!
Can you say if the Moroso valve is just a regular looking check valve with metal insides?
Can't see any for sale on our island,
Beers! HH
The Moroso valve is a simple check valve: http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance-P...1/10002/-1
02-07-2017, 11:55 PM
#25
(08-14-2016, 08:01 AM)Evenglass Just complcompleted the HX30W instinstall with intercooler on my om617. I have elimeliminated the factory air filter along with the oil condenser from the CCV. Question is can I run the hose directly back into the turbo compressor and right back into the combustion chamber. It is my understanding that priprior to 78' EPA this is how it was done.
This is what I d did, using the original canister in the factory air cleaner. I just cut the canister out of the air cleaner and made a bracket to hold it to the turbo. Works just like the original.
Attached Files
Image(s)(08-14-2016, 08:01 AM)Evenglass Just complcompleted the HX30W instinstall with intercooler on my om617. I have elimeliminated the factory air filter along with the oil condenser from the CCV. Question is can I run the hose directly back into the turbo compressor and right back into the combustion chamber. It is my understanding that priprior to 78' EPA this is how it was done.
This is what I d did, using the original canister in the factory air cleaner. I just cut the canister out of the air cleaner and made a bracket to hold it to the turbo. Works just like the original.
Attached Files
Image(s)
02-08-2017, 06:36 PM
#26
(02-07-2017, 03:30 AM)hooblah Just run a pipe down to the ground beneath. Unless it's leaving puddles everywhere I wouldn't worry about oil on the road. This is what they did back in the day.
This is also how my 2001 MACK work truck, and before that my 99 Sterling are setup from the factory.
1987 Mazda B2200 "outlaw" **planning phase** Chevy 283, Power Pack heads, Edelbrock carb and intake, turbo 350 trans
1985 Mercedes 300D stock for now
(02-07-2017, 03:30 AM)hooblah Just run a pipe down to the ground beneath. Unless it's leaving puddles everywhere I wouldn't worry about oil on the road. This is what they did back in the day.
This is also how my 2001 MACK work truck, and before that my 99 Sterling are setup from the factory.
1987 Mazda B2200 "outlaw" **planning phase** Chevy 283, Power Pack heads, Edelbrock carb and intake, turbo 350 trans
1985 Mercedes 300D stock for now
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