5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements
5 cylinder M Super pump testing, fitted with M75 Floyd 7.5mm elements
(05-19-2010, 09:12 AM)Rudolf_Diesel(05-19-2010, 08:48 AM)winmutt * winmutt waits patiently for the bottom to fall out of the euro...
I know what you mean buddy!
Fortunately the next phase of the project is all available in the USA...
A Tremec TKO 500 5-speed transmission...more deatils and a seperate thread to follow.
i like
cr85merch
06-06-2010, 03:43 PM #51(05-19-2010, 09:12 AM)Rudolf_Diesel(05-19-2010, 08:48 AM)winmutt * winmutt waits patiently for the bottom to fall out of the euro...
I know what you mean buddy!
Fortunately the next phase of the project is all available in the USA...
A Tremec TKO 500 5-speed transmission...more deatils and a seperate thread to follow.
i like
Dave M.
Boise, ID, USA
1997 E420 - 149kmi (Bugeyes)
1994 E420 - 136kmi (Blondie)
1994 E500 - 116kmi (Q-ship)
1992 500E - 179kmi (Mach 5)
1987 300D - 330kmi (Sportline Stage 2)
Click here for my website!
OK, so when can someone replicate this on an OM603 pump...?
Dave M.
Boise, ID, USA
1997 E420 - 149kmi (Bugeyes)
1994 E420 - 136kmi (Blondie)
1994 E500 - 116kmi (Q-ship)
1992 500E - 179kmi (Mach 5)
1987 300D - 330kmi (Sportline Stage 2)
Click here for my website!
yesterday night we set the timing to 24deg TDC.
I was completely wrong with my thoughts to retard the timing with larger elements. 24-25deg is the way to go.
After changing the timing my friend's 123 coupe with 617 n/a engine (and 650.000 Km on the clock) is now comparable with an average 126 with 617 Turbo. My friend was like
and I fear that he will never give back this IP any more. Absolutely no issues with smoke or engine run, just way faster than before. I was a little shocked of the performance of a n/a 617.Let's see what the next days bring regarding consumption etc.
I'll try to find an other n/a M-IP.
Tom
(06-02-2010, 12:01 AM)tomnik to be honest, not too exciting up to now.
I made an IP and my friend is running it in his n/a.
First thing was that the car smoked a lot and was nailing (in combination with power loss) beyond let's say 3500-4000 rpm and pedal depressed. Then we decreased the full load and everything was perfect. No power gain at low rpm but beyond 3000 the engine climbed up to 5400 like hell. He has the 3.8?? rear end and top speed is limited by rpm max.
Now this lazy bone is not able for weeks now to play with timing. Actually the timing is set at 8 deg before TDC! This was how it came up when he installed the IP. In my opinion this is far too late but he can't find the time to change it.
Also those are the rest of the 7mm crap elements I had sitting around where we took the 5 best for the IP.
I will up date the progress as soon as he gets further.
Tom
(06-01-2010, 09:31 PM)jonbobshinigin I know I have seen this addressed briefly before but: What would something like this look like on a NA (Naturally Aspirated) 617?
update:
yesterday night we set the timing to 24deg TDC.
I was completely wrong with my thoughts to retard the timing with larger elements. 24-25deg is the way to go.
After changing the timing my friend's 123 coupe with 617 n/a engine (and 650.000 Km on the clock) is now comparable with an average 126 with 617 Turbo. My friend was like and I fear that he will never give back this IP any more. Absolutely no issues with smoke or engine run, just way faster than before. I was a little shocked of the performance of a n/a 617.
Let's see what the next days bring regarding consumption etc.
I'll try to find an other n/a M-IP.
Tom
(06-02-2010, 12:01 AM)tomnik to be honest, not too exciting up to now.
I made an IP and my friend is running it in his n/a.
First thing was that the car smoked a lot and was nailing (in combination with power loss) beyond let's say 3500-4000 rpm and pedal depressed. Then we decreased the full load and everything was perfect. No power gain at low rpm but beyond 3000 the engine climbed up to 5400 like hell. He has the 3.8?? rear end and top speed is limited by rpm max.
Now this lazy bone is not able for weeks now to play with timing. Actually the timing is set at 8 deg before TDC! This was how it came up when he installed the IP. In my opinion this is far too late but he can't find the time to change it.
Also those are the rest of the 7mm crap elements I had sitting around where we took the 5 best for the IP.
I will up date the progress as soon as he gets further.
Tom
(06-01-2010, 09:31 PM)jonbobshinigin I know I have seen this addressed briefly before but: What would something like this look like on a NA (Naturally Aspirated) 617?
![[Image: 3803751914_8fdca63138_o.jpg]](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3543/3803751914_8fdca63138_o.jpg)
(06-11-2010, 08:22 AM)Deni How can you go faster without more air?
Injecting all the fuel sooner in the stroke. It has more time to expand closer to TDC, higher combustion pressure.
ForcedInduction
06-11-2010, 08:25 AM
#56
(06-11-2010, 08:22 AM)Deni How can you go faster without more air?
Injecting all the fuel sooner in the stroke. It has more time to expand closer to TDC, higher combustion pressure.
If you add boost with out more fuel it wont make almost any more power!
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
06-11-2010, 12:28 PM #57diesels make there power with fuel but they get hot that's when air is needed to keep them cool
If you add boost with out more fuel it wont make almost any more power!
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
Also slightly more on topic what are the EGT's looking like on that N/A and obviously this will lower engine life considering the unequal heating and ovalation required for the pistons as described here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indirect_injection any thoughts on this?
meareweird
06-11-2010, 02:16 PM #58Hey, tom I've got an interesting proposal for you! I have got an M-pump lying around first off the bad news front delivery valve holder has broken off with threads inside and damage to the IP Block. So question one could fix that and rebuild the pump with larger elements, or barring that if I could get it fixed I could mail it to you for the larger element treatment. Either way please email me at meareweird@yahoo.com to discuss.
Also slightly more on topic what are the EGT's looking like on that N/A and obviously this will lower engine life considering the unequal heating and ovalation required for the pistons as described here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indirect_injection any thoughts on this?
--Are you coming to the UK in the next couple of weeks or so...?
--If so, I have a couple of 'M' type for 617 just gathering dust, they are all in good running order, and are just spares....
You're welcome to them, as I would also like to try the M75 elements in my N/A engine too....
![[Image: 300TDnoplate.jpg]](http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z128/alastairhcii/300TDnoplate.jpg)
Alastair E
06-11-2010, 02:31 PM #59Hi Tom!
--Are you coming to the UK in the next couple of weeks or so...?
--If so, I have a couple of 'M' type for 617 just gathering dust, they are all in good running order, and are just spares....
You're welcome to them, as I would also like to try the M75 elements in my N/A engine too....
I answered to your post already.
Repairing this pump yes, but just to see if it is possible, not to use it afterwards on the engine. It might be cheaper to get a complete used IP instead of repair or buying an IP block and transfer all the parts.
Shipping this IP extends the actual value.
For element swap and adjustment DervTuning in Maryland is the guy to contact. He knows what to do and uses my elements.
On topic: This was just to see how a n/a engine reacts on the larger elements. I did not expect that power increase without the possibility of additional air. This is the only thing we wanted to see, no EGT observation (no sensor in this engine), no thoughts about EGT at all.
What my friend noticed while having the IP very late at 8deg was fast temperature increase and higher temps while driving but this is not a surprise regarding the 8deg.
Tom
(06-11-2010, 02:16 PM)meareweird Hey, tom I've got an interesting proposal for you! I have got an M-pump lying around first off the bad news front delivery valve holder has broken off with threads inside and damage to the IP Block. So question one could fix that and rebuild the pump with larger elements, or barring that if I could get it fixed I could mail it to you for the larger element treatment. Either way please email me at meareweird@yahoo.com to discuss.
Also slightly more on topic what are the EGT's looking like on that N/A and obviously this will lower engine life considering the unequal heating and ovalation required for the pistons as described here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indirect_injection any thoughts on this?
Alastair,
this was the plan to get one IP done, test it and send it to you for your testing. But as I already said my friend does not give it back.
A plan could be to do a second one, adapt the settings to the engine, test it and send it to you for a plug'n'play job.
As long as we don't put such an IP back on the bench to note the modified settings for future jobs it can get hard to have fun.
Looking back to the time it took for David to finish RudolDiesel's IP I now clearly state that this is the only way to do it properly, although the world gets impatient.
A trip to Baglan is not planned in the near future but I will find a way to get you a test pump.
Tom
(06-11-2010, 02:31 PM)Alastair E Hi Tom!
--Are you coming to the UK in the next couple of weeks or so...?
--If so, I have a couple of 'M' type for 617 just gathering dust, they are all in good running order, and are just spares....
You're welcome to them, as I would also like to try the M75 elements in my N/A engine too....
Hi,
I answered to your post already.
Repairing this pump yes, but just to see if it is possible, not to use it afterwards on the engine. It might be cheaper to get a complete used IP instead of repair or buying an IP block and transfer all the parts.
Shipping this IP extends the actual value.
For element swap and adjustment DervTuning in Maryland is the guy to contact. He knows what to do and uses my elements.
On topic: This was just to see how a n/a engine reacts on the larger elements. I did not expect that power increase without the possibility of additional air. This is the only thing we wanted to see, no EGT observation (no sensor in this engine), no thoughts about EGT at all.
What my friend noticed while having the IP very late at 8deg was fast temperature increase and higher temps while driving but this is not a surprise regarding the 8deg.
Tom
(06-11-2010, 02:16 PM)meareweird Hey, tom I've got an interesting proposal for you! I have got an M-pump lying around first off the bad news front delivery valve holder has broken off with threads inside and damage to the IP Block. So question one could fix that and rebuild the pump with larger elements, or barring that if I could get it fixed I could mail it to you for the larger element treatment. Either way please email me at meareweird@yahoo.com to discuss.
Also slightly more on topic what are the EGT's looking like on that N/A and obviously this will lower engine life considering the unequal heating and ovalation required for the pistons as described here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indirect_injection any thoughts on this?
Alastair,
this was the plan to get one IP done, test it and send it to you for your testing. But as I already said my friend does not give it back.
A plan could be to do a second one, adapt the settings to the engine, test it and send it to you for a plug'n'play job.
As long as we don't put such an IP back on the bench to note the modified settings for future jobs it can get hard to have fun.
Looking back to the time it took for David to finish RudolDiesel's IP I now clearly state that this is the only way to do it properly, although the world gets impatient.
A trip to Baglan is not planned in the near future but I will find a way to get you a test pump.
Tom
(06-11-2010, 02:31 PM)Alastair E Hi Tom!
--Are you coming to the UK in the next couple of weeks or so...?
--If so, I have a couple of 'M' type for 617 just gathering dust, they are all in good running order, and are just spares....
You're welcome to them, as I would also like to try the M75 elements in my N/A engine too....
--That sounds like a good plan...
.IF its any help, I have an injection-shop guy local to me, who is pretty friendly, known him for years, and I'm sure I could persuade him to let me tinker with a pump on his Test-Bench, one Saturday morning....
--So if you did get a pump built up with 7.5's and set it up, I could alter it for fuelling etc, on the engine, and when I'm happy its at its best for power and low-smoke, in the real-world, on an engine, I could then re-measure its delivery at the two-speeds in an attempt to derive some data for a Test-Plan, which would then be easy for any Good Diesel-Shop to duplicate...
--It would also go some way to developing a Test-Plan for the Turbo motor using the 7.5's, as the N/A requirements will be much the same in the Important, low-revs OFF Boost phase with regards to Smoke emissions....
---Just an idea.....
Alastair E
06-12-2010, 07:44 AM #61Hi Tom,
--That sounds like a good plan....
IF its any help, I have an injection-shop guy local to me, who is pretty friendly, known him for years, and I'm sure I could persuade him to let me tinker with a pump on his Test-Bench, one Saturday morning....
--So if you did get a pump built up with 7.5's and set it up, I could alter it for fuelling etc, on the engine, and when I'm happy its at its best for power and low-smoke, in the real-world, on an engine, I could then re-measure its delivery at the two-speeds in an attempt to derive some data for a Test-Plan, which would then be easy for any Good Diesel-Shop to duplicate...
--It would also go some way to developing a Test-Plan for the Turbo motor using the 7.5's, as the N/A requirements will be much the same in the Important, low-revs OFF Boost phase with regards to Smoke emissions....
---Just an idea.....
(06-16-2010, 01:24 AM)12mpghwy So whats the total cost of this treatment on an OM603 IP?
If you're in the USA, you will need to contact 'DervTuning' on this Forum for pricing, giving him exactly What you're looking for, and full details of your pump,engine, and requirements....
These mods cannot be done without the specialised equipment to set-up the pump afterwards....
Alastair E
06-16-2010, 03:17 AM #63(06-16-2010, 01:24 AM)12mpghwy So whats the total cost of this treatment on an OM603 IP?
If you're in the USA, you will need to contact 'DervTuning' on this Forum for pricing, giving him exactly What you're looking for, and full details of your pump,engine, and requirements....
These mods cannot be done without the specialised equipment to set-up the pump afterwards....
jonbobshinigin
06-16-2010, 03:10 PM #64Yeh, a price, even an estimate, for an om603 pump would be great! That way I can start saving, or selling stuff...
Elements are 60 Eur each, and you'll need 6 for a 6 pot engine, so thats 360 Euro Plus Shipping and any Duty at Customs etc, so may be as high as 450 Eur,--You'll have to check-- so thats gonna be around $550 USD, as a rough guide, All according what the exchange-rate is.......
-That is just to get the actual parts needed. The Pump will need full dismantling to remove old elements and install the new, as well as select new rollers for 'Phasing' each new element.
The pump will then be built up and set to run on a Test-Bench where the fun begins!
Obviously, on full dismantling of the pump, things like the Cam bearings will be replaced if its a high-mile pump, or they are in any way suspect, as the Loadings on the Cam the M7.5 elements will generate can be higher than the original 5.5mm elements, as well as any other parts found to be worn. It goes without saying seals and 'O' rings will need replacing.
The Governor will have to be re-set to give the fuelling requirements of the particular engine type and then Customised to the Customer's requirements....
--If an 'ALDA' is required, this is itself another 'Project' involving modification if a N/A 'M' type is used.....
To Fully Strip, Clean, select rollers, build up a Bosch 'M' type is gonna take at least half a day to do right, thats Before it goes anywhere near the Test-Bench.
Figure on at least 2 hours bench time to set the pump up.........
All the above assuming the pump supplied is in sound physical/mechanical condition to start with!
Tomnik supplies the Custom Made M 7.5 'Floyd' Elements from Germany where he had them specially made to the required spec., but its 'DervTuning' who does the hard job of installing and rebuilding/setting up the pump for the Cust. in the U.S.A. I believe he is the Only one in the U.S. that has any experience with these parts and this application......
Best P.M. DervTuning for a price on his work.....
Alastair E
06-17-2010, 06:20 AM #66So, as a rough guide for guys reckoning on installing the M7.5 Elements, consider like this-
Elements are 60 Eur each, and you'll need 6 for a 6 pot engine, so thats 360 Euro Plus Shipping and any Duty at Customs etc, so may be as high as 450 Eur,--You'll have to check-- so thats gonna be around $550 USD, as a rough guide, All according what the exchange-rate is.......
-That is just to get the actual parts needed. The Pump will need full dismantling to remove old elements and install the new, as well as select new rollers for 'Phasing' each new element.
The pump will then be built up and set to run on a Test-Bench where the fun begins!
Obviously, on full dismantling of the pump, things like the Cam bearings will be replaced if its a high-mile pump, or they are in any way suspect, as the Loadings on the Cam the M7.5 elements will generate can be higher than the original 5.5mm elements, as well as any other parts found to be worn. It goes without saying seals and 'O' rings will need replacing.
The Governor will have to be re-set to give the fuelling requirements of the particular engine type and then Customised to the Customer's requirements....
--If an 'ALDA' is required, this is itself another 'Project' involving modification if a N/A 'M' type is used.....
To Fully Strip, Clean, select rollers, build up a Bosch 'M' type is gonna take at least half a day to do right, thats Before it goes anywhere near the Test-Bench.
Figure on at least 2 hours bench time to set the pump up.........
All the above assuming the pump supplied is in sound physical/mechanical condition to start with!
Tomnik supplies the Custom Made M 7.5 'Floyd' Elements from Germany where he had them specially made to the required spec., but its 'DervTuning' who does the hard job of installing and rebuilding/setting up the pump for the Cust. in the U.S.A. I believe he is the Only one in the U.S. that has any experience with these parts and this application......
Best P.M. DervTuning for a price on his work.....
I live in the Netherlands and would be interested to gain a little more power.
Peanuts, regarding what will turn out if the small rest of the job will do well.
Jokin', 60 Eur/element from my side.
Contact Derv for the swap and set up.
and even mini peanuts compared to the beautiful engine of Rudolf.
Tom
[/quote]
Are there ways to have such a swap of elements to be done in Germany?
I live in the Netherlands and would be interested to gain a little more power.
Peanuts, regarding what will turn out if the small rest of the job will do well.
Jokin', 60 Eur/element from my side.
Contact Derv for the swap and set up.
and even mini peanuts compared to the beautiful engine of Rudolf.
Tom
[/quote]
What type of pump? M or MW? 5 or 6 cyl.? Turbo or n/a?
(I will be on a 2 weeks holiday trip starting next weekend)
Tom
(06-21-2010, 03:17 PM)plurkje Are there ways to have such a swap of elements to be done in Germany?[/quote]
I live in the Netherlands and would be interested to gain a little more power.
Peanuts, regarding what will turn out if the small rest of the job will do well.
Jokin', 60 Eur/element from my side.
Contact Derv for the swap and set up.
and even mini peanuts compared to the beautiful engine of Rudolf.
Tom
For the Netherlands it makes sense to send the IP to me (Germany) for the complete swap and adjustment.
What type of pump? M or MW? 5 or 6 cyl.? Turbo or n/a?
(I will be on a 2 weeks holiday trip starting next weekend)
Tom
(06-21-2010, 03:17 PM)plurkje Are there ways to have such a swap of elements to be done in Germany?[/quote]
I live in the Netherlands and would be interested to gain a little more power.
Peanuts, regarding what will turn out if the small rest of the job will do well.
Jokin', 60 Eur/element from my side.
Contact Derv for the swap and set up.
and even mini peanuts compared to the beautiful engine of Rudolf.
Tom
(07-19-2010, 10:41 PM)jonbobshinigin Any update on a 603 pump?
603 'M' type uses same 7.5mm elements as the 617 'M' type--Very similar pump!....
Have you contacted Tomnik for the parts and then DervTuning to fit them?
--To give you an idea-
We are at still the 'research' stage...
Not even a 'Beta' testing stage,-
-Let alone a,-- 'buy a pump off the shelf stage'!!
(doubt it ever will be a' buy-a-pump-off-the-shelf' scenario,--They will be built to order, with specific requirements in mind....)
I would recommend, Buy elements from Tomnik, buy a S/H 603 pump and send both pump and new elements to DervTuning for fitting/set-up, describing what you're after--Only way at this stage.....
Alastair E
07-20-2010, 03:14 PM #70(07-19-2010, 10:41 PM)jonbobshinigin Any update on a 603 pump?
603 'M' type uses same 7.5mm elements as the 617 'M' type--Very similar pump!....
Have you contacted Tomnik for the parts and then DervTuning to fit them?
--To give you an idea-
We are at still the 'research' stage...
Not even a 'Beta' testing stage,-
-Let alone a,-- 'buy a pump off the shelf stage'!!
(doubt it ever will be a' buy-a-pump-off-the-shelf' scenario,--They will be built to order, with specific requirements in mind....)
I would recommend, Buy elements from Tomnik, buy a S/H 603 pump and send both pump and new elements to DervTuning for fitting/set-up, describing what you're after--Only way at this stage.....
jonbobshinigin
07-22-2010, 08:50 PM #71Dervs inbox is full...I guess I'd like to read about a 603 success because I cannot afford to be a tester at this point. Plus get another of my cars running so that I'll have a backup. Plus get and intercooler. Plus a pyrometer, larger turbo, and install the Euro W140 Exhaust Manifold I got 6 months ago that is sitting on the shelf.
Stay tuned for a lot more information and more real world results
(07-22-2010, 08:50 PM)jonbobshinigin Dervs inbox is full...I guess I'd like to read about a 603 success because I cannot afford to be a tester at this point. Plus get another of my cars running so that I'll have a backup. Plus get and intercooler. Plus a pyrometer, larger turbo, and install the Euro W140 Exhaust Manifold I got 6 months ago that is sitting on the shelf.
DervTuning
07-23-2010, 12:34 PM #72Inbox is cleared by a good amount. There has been a ton more research and development both on the injection pump and the car.
Stay tuned for a lot more information and more real world results
(07-22-2010, 08:50 PM)jonbobshinigin Dervs inbox is full...I guess I'd like to read about a 603 success because I cannot afford to be a tester at this point. Plus get another of my cars running so that I'll have a backup. Plus get and intercooler. Plus a pyrometer, larger turbo, and install the Euro W140 Exhaust Manifold I got 6 months ago that is sitting on the shelf.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
I dont remember if i asked, but how much these 7.5mm elements can supply fuel?
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(07-23-2010, 03:34 PM)jeemu I dont remember if i asked, but how much these 7.5mm elements can supply fuel?
depends on how far you want to go with rod position.
Personally I don't agree with end of injection beyond the point where the cam profile switches (plunger travel speed max. after this point the plunger speed decreases and you risk cam/roller floating).
Let me know what effective plunger stroke you are intending to set and I will provide the (theoretical) delivery.
David might also provide the delivery of Rudolf's IP.
Tom
(07-23-2010, 03:34 PM)jeemu I dont remember if i asked, but how much these 7.5mm elements can supply fuel?
depends on how far you want to go with rod position.
Personally I don't agree with end of injection beyond the point where the cam profile switches (plunger travel speed max. after this point the plunger speed decreases and you risk cam/roller floating).
Let me know what effective plunger stroke you are intending to set and I will provide the (theoretical) delivery.
David might also provide the delivery of Rudolf's IP.
Tom
Increasing the fuelling can be thought of as increasing the length of stroke of the plunger...(It doesnt actually, the effective stroke is longer Before the Spill-Port is uncovered
As the cam nears the end of its effective stroke, the speed of plunger rise falls off sharply, so fuel delivered approaching and at this point in its travel will be at a rapidly dropping pressure and take much time (relatively) to complete.
--Effectively the last fuel would dribble in....
All the fuel delivered at this point will then do is add to high EGT's and black-smoke while not really giving the full benefit of it actually being there!
Then again, I think with 7.5mm we will run out of air/engine capabilities--even with a mega tuned 606/605 with the biggest darn turbo you could fit, before this point in the delivery curve....
Myna get pretty impressive results with the smaller, 7mm plunger, so I doubt we would ever get near the end of useful fuelling provided by a 7.5mm!
Alastair E
07-24-2010, 05:30 AM #75Very true!
Increasing the fuelling can be thought of as increasing the length of stroke of the plunger...(It doesnt actually, the effective stroke is longer Before the Spill-Port is uncovered
As the cam nears the end of its effective stroke, the speed of plunger rise falls off sharply, so fuel delivered approaching and at this point in its travel will be at a rapidly dropping pressure and take much time (relatively) to complete.
--Effectively the last fuel would dribble in....
All the fuel delivered at this point will then do is add to high EGT's and black-smoke while not really giving the full benefit of it actually being there!
Then again, I think with 7.5mm we will run out of air/engine capabilities--even with a mega tuned 606/605 with the biggest darn turbo you could fit, before this point in the delivery curve....
Myna get pretty impressive results with the smaller, 7mm plunger, so I doubt we would ever get near the end of useful fuelling provided by a 7.5mm!
(07-24-2010, 05:30 AM)Alastair E Then again, I think with 7.5mm we will run out of air/engine capabilities--even with a mega tuned 606/605 with the biggest darn turbo you could fit, before this point in the delivery curve....
I dunno about that!
jeemu has 529HP out of his 605!! 
John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 118k - Faaaaaast!!
'87 300TD - 317k - Cracked head... but an OM606 is on the way!
'79 300SD - 295k - Bad engine = project car!
(07-24-2010, 05:30 AM)Alastair E Then again, I think with 7.5mm we will run out of air/engine capabilities--even with a mega tuned 606/605 with the biggest darn turbo you could fit, before this point in the delivery curve....
I dunno about that!
jeemu has 529HP out of his 605!!
John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 118k - Faaaaaast!!
'87 300TD - 317k - Cracked head... but an OM606 is on the way!
'79 300SD - 295k - Bad engine = project car!
Hey Derv, I PMed you about two 603 Pumps I am getting soon hopefully. Both are described as "non-working" but I have no other info than that. I figure these may be good as Cores or for spare parts. I can send them to you if you'd like!
jonbobshinigin
08-09-2010, 10:46 AM #77This thread should never leave the first page!
Hey Derv, I PMed you about two 603 Pumps I am getting soon hopefully. Both are described as "non-working" but I have no other info than that. I figure these may be good as Cores or for spare parts. I can send them to you if you'd like!
(05-12-2010, 10:20 AM)DervTuning The super pump lives! For further testing of the bench settings on the pump, it is highly desirable to fit the pump to an engine to get dynamic qualitative, and quantitative feedback. The goal is to have a perfectly setup pump, with optimal delivery and response characteristics. This ensures that once the customer gets the pump, it is simply a plug and play situation. All fun, and no problems!Dev
Therefore, I installed the super pump onto the engine in the 85 w123 that is running an authentic Garrett, basically full T4 turbo (compressor and turbine wheels, with a t3 inlet on the turbine housing), a 3" diameter downpipe, and water injection, for an evaluation of idle response, as well as other key parameters for performance. This is in the case that something needs attention, the pump can be fitted back to the bench for adjustments before being shipped out.
The results are in; the engine has never idled so well! Totally smooth, and driving at low speeds, the tip in response was excellent, with no issues with surging or other strange effects. Immediately, the effect of more fuel delivery, as well as faster delivery was observed, whilst driving a usual route.
Subsequently, merging onto the freeway, a wholly different beast was unleashed under the hood, with power like never before. Before I knew it, I was just over the speed I normally would drive at, just an ultra smooth flow of power coupled with fine sounds as the turbo responded. Very, very impressive! After a quick systems check, and a clear space in front of me, the transmission was placed into 3rd @ 65mph, yielding near 4K rpms and the throttle depressed; instantly, the boost shot up to ~30psi, as well as the EGTs which stabilized as the boost kicked in, and then wheelspin occurred! Incredible! This is not a small turbo either, but I've never seen it respond so well compared to other platforms I've tried the same turbo in (gas engines).
It should be noted that prior to the super pump install, with the stock MW adjusted to it's maximum, I was getting ~10 psi max.
I will be able to resume testing later in the day, and if everything goes as well as it has, the super pump will be shipped out straightaway!
I have a 83'300SD 617 engine Turbo how much would it cost to
have the IP converted to the larger elements, how much more
power can I realize 20 to 30%? how long will this take?
Walton Chang/ zhangwalton@yahoo.com
walton chang
08-14-2010, 11:51 PM #78
(05-12-2010, 10:20 AM)DervTuning The super pump lives! For further testing of the bench settings on the pump, it is highly desirable to fit the pump to an engine to get dynamic qualitative, and quantitative feedback. The goal is to have a perfectly setup pump, with optimal delivery and response characteristics. This ensures that once the customer gets the pump, it is simply a plug and play situation. All fun, and no problems!Dev
Therefore, I installed the super pump onto the engine in the 85 w123 that is running an authentic Garrett, basically full T4 turbo (compressor and turbine wheels, with a t3 inlet on the turbine housing), a 3" diameter downpipe, and water injection, for an evaluation of idle response, as well as other key parameters for performance. This is in the case that something needs attention, the pump can be fitted back to the bench for adjustments before being shipped out.
The results are in; the engine has never idled so well! Totally smooth, and driving at low speeds, the tip in response was excellent, with no issues with surging or other strange effects. Immediately, the effect of more fuel delivery, as well as faster delivery was observed, whilst driving a usual route.
Subsequently, merging onto the freeway, a wholly different beast was unleashed under the hood, with power like never before. Before I knew it, I was just over the speed I normally would drive at, just an ultra smooth flow of power coupled with fine sounds as the turbo responded. Very, very impressive! After a quick systems check, and a clear space in front of me, the transmission was placed into 3rd @ 65mph, yielding near 4K rpms and the throttle depressed; instantly, the boost shot up to ~30psi, as well as the EGTs which stabilized as the boost kicked in, and then wheelspin occurred! Incredible! This is not a small turbo either, but I've never seen it respond so well compared to other platforms I've tried the same turbo in (gas engines).
It should be noted that prior to the super pump install, with the stock MW adjusted to it's maximum, I was getting ~10 psi max.
I will be able to resume testing later in the day, and if everything goes as well as it has, the super pump will be shipped out straightaway!
I have a 83'300SD 617 engine Turbo how much would it cost to
have the IP converted to the larger elements, how much more
power can I realize 20 to 30%? how long will this take?
Walton Chang/ zhangwalton@yahoo.com
(08-14-2010, 11:51 PM)walton chang how much more
power can I realize 20 to 30%?
FAR more than that, upwards of 125%.
For just 20%, remove the rack limiter and set boost to 15psi. For 30%, do the prior plus W/M injection. Far cheaper than anything involving changing the injection pump.
ForcedInduction
08-15-2010, 07:21 AM
#79
(08-14-2010, 11:51 PM)walton chang how much more
power can I realize 20 to 30%?
FAR more than that, upwards of 125%.
For just 20%, remove the rack limiter and set boost to 15psi. For 30%, do the prior plus W/M injection. Far cheaper than anything involving changing the injection pump.
30psi? You have to be seeing valve float on the intake side right? That is an incredible dyno. What kind of EGTs are you running in these?
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
http://superturbodiesel.com/std/dyno-res...l#pid16195
30psi? You have to be seeing valve float on the intake side right? That is an incredible dyno. What kind of EGTs are you running in these?
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(08-16-2010, 12:30 PM)gsxr Since the other thread was closed (sigh), I'll repeat the question
Ditto on the "(sigh)", I've asked him not to lock my threads or delete on-topic posts in them.
ForcedInduction
08-16-2010, 12:34 PM
#82
(08-16-2010, 12:30 PM)gsxr Since the other thread was closed (sigh), I'll repeat the question
Ditto on the "(sigh)", I've asked him not to lock my threads or delete on-topic posts in them.
(08-16-2010, 12:30 PM)gsxr Since the other thread was closed (sigh), I'll repeat the question:
Is the "water injection" injecting water, methanol, or a mixture...?
(08-16-2010, 12:34 PM)ForcedInduction Ditto on the "(sigh)", I've asked him not to lock my threads or delete on-topic posts in them.
Sorry I can't move posts to other threads, only create new ones. I am locking that thread because its not for general discussion and per FI's request to move some posts out of it into discussion topics. If there was an option for a approval process for posts for a single thread I would use it. If you noticed, I deleted my own hurrahs as well. Again sorry, if there was an easier way to manage it then I would certainly do so.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(08-16-2010, 12:30 PM)gsxr Since the other thread was closed (sigh), I'll repeat the question:
Is the "water injection" injecting water, methanol, or a mixture...?
(08-16-2010, 12:34 PM)ForcedInduction Ditto on the "(sigh)", I've asked him not to lock my threads or delete on-topic posts in them.
Sorry I can't move posts to other threads, only create new ones. I am locking that thread because its not for general discussion and per FI's request to move some posts out of it into discussion topics. If there was an option for a approval process for posts for a single thread I would use it. If you noticed, I deleted my own hurrahs as well. Again sorry, if there was an easier way to manage it then I would certainly do so.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
.I was not looking at the EGT on the dyno, but on the road with similar settings, the EGT would get up to about 725C. With the MW pump back on the engine, there is a lot more time to observe the behavior of the EGT gauge. As the boost climbs, the EGT rises to about 700C (slower injection compared to the 7.5mm elements), the water injection kicks in, and the EGT rapidly drops to about 600C and stays there. It seems to work well
(08-16-2010, 12:26 PM)winmutt http://superturbodiesel.com/std/dyno-res...l#pid16195
30psi? You have to be seeing valve float on the intake side right? That is an incredible dyno. What kind of EGTs are you running in these?
The water injection system is injecting straight tap water.
The old system, prior to the pump dying was injecting about 700ccm under normal atmospheric pressure. I have yet to measure what the new system is delivering, but from general observations, the delivery is increased.
(08-16-2010, 12:30 PM)gsxr Since the other thread was closed (sigh), I'll repeat the question:
Is the "water injection" injecting water, methanol, or a mixture...?
DervTuning
08-16-2010, 04:53 PM #84There is no valve float that I know of, just smooth power. The car would probably make more power, but without knowing the limits of things, we figured it was enough. The rev limiter was raised slightly again after the dyno session, and everything sounded fine up to just past 6k rpms .
I was not looking at the EGT on the dyno, but on the road with similar settings, the EGT would get up to about 725C. With the MW pump back on the engine, there is a lot more time to observe the behavior of the EGT gauge. As the boost climbs, the EGT rises to about 700C (slower injection compared to the 7.5mm elements), the water injection kicks in, and the EGT rapidly drops to about 600C and stays there. It seems to work well
(08-16-2010, 12:26 PM)winmutt http://superturbodiesel.com/std/dyno-res...l#pid16195
30psi? You have to be seeing valve float on the intake side right? That is an incredible dyno. What kind of EGTs are you running in these?
The water injection system is injecting straight tap water.
The old system, prior to the pump dying was injecting about 700ccm under normal atmospheric pressure. I have yet to measure what the new system is delivering, but from general observations, the delivery is increased.
(08-16-2010, 12:30 PM)gsxr Since the other thread was closed (sigh), I'll repeat the question:
Is the "water injection" injecting water, methanol, or a mixture...?
This is aside from the pump linkage and bowden cable adjustments necessary when switching between the MW and M pumps.
(08-16-2010, 05:08 PM)ForcedInduction What has been done to the transmission in all of this?
DervTuning
08-16-2010, 05:39 PM #86When I first installed the Floyd M Pump, I had to change the shift points, by adjusting the bowden cable, so that the shifts would occur at higher rpms, otherwise, I was starting to get a bit of flaring. The next step would have been to adjust the modulator.
This is aside from the pump linkage and bowden cable adjustments necessary when switching between the MW and M pumps.
(08-16-2010, 05:08 PM)ForcedInduction What has been done to the transmission in all of this?
Wow. OK, for those of us who are a little slow (in more ways than one)... how does injecting plain tap water provide that kind of additional power? I had (wrongly) assumed you were injecting methanol which was adding extra fuel, to provide the power gain. I understand the water injection reducing EGT's, but I don't get where the ~20% power gain came from. Perhaps the pump adjustment also increased the fuel delivery...?
The rev limiter begins acting earlier than the actual final rev limit, and starts reducing fuel quantity progressively until you near the final rev limit, where it really shuts things down.
This is in contrast to, for example, a rev limiter on a gas engine.
However, with the increased rev limit, the engine's power output felt just like a turbo gas engine
(08-17-2010, 09:54 AM)gsxr Wow. OK, for those of us who are a little slow (in more ways than one)... how does injecting plain tap water provide that kind of additional power? I had (wrongly) assumed you were injecting methanol which was adding extra fuel, to provide the power gain. I understand the water injection reducing EGT's, but I don't get where the ~20% power gain came from. Perhaps the pump adjustment also increased the fuel delivery...?
DervTuning
08-17-2010, 10:39 AM #88Yes, it is from a combination of water injection, fuel delivery, the increased rev limit, and more boost.
The rev limiter begins acting earlier than the actual final rev limit, and starts reducing fuel quantity progressively until you near the final rev limit, where it really shuts things down.
This is in contrast to, for example, a rev limiter on a gas engine.
However, with the increased rev limit, the engine's power output felt just like a turbo gas engine
(08-17-2010, 09:54 AM)gsxr Wow. OK, for those of us who are a little slow (in more ways than one)... how does injecting plain tap water provide that kind of additional power? I had (wrongly) assumed you were injecting methanol which was adding extra fuel, to provide the power gain. I understand the water injection reducing EGT's, but I don't get where the ~20% power gain came from. Perhaps the pump adjustment also increased the fuel delivery...?
Another question from the peanut gallery... you mentioned increased boost on the second dyno run. Was that the result of changing the wastegate setting to open at higher pressure, or was it a result of supplying more fuel via the increased governor/limiter adjustment? Maybe both?
ForcedInduction
08-17-2010, 06:10 PM
#91
The methanol must be counteracting the water, my EGTs don't drop even a tiny bit when its activated.
That was my experience as well with liquid injection on a 603... I used a methanol mix (uh, actually cheap blue washer fluid) and although I did observe a 7-10% power gain when shooting in enormous amounts of blue juice, the EGT's were absolutely unchanged. I think I tried the same with plain water and there was no power gain and no EGT change. I did observe reduced IAT's when the liquid injection was operational, but that was the only visible difference.
Also, thanks for the additional compliments
(08-17-2010, 02:33 PM)gsxr Another question from the peanut gallery... you mentioned increased boost on the second dyno run. Was that the result of changing the wastegate setting to open at higher pressure, or was it a result of supplying more fuel via the increased governor/limiter adjustment? Maybe both?
I wonder about the interaction also. There are also numerous other factors that should be considered that contribute to the behavior of the EGT and engine, such as the volume of water injected, turbo size, lack of intercooler, charge pressure, etc.
Since the water injection was working better than expected with the MW pump, I changed the set pressure at which it was activated. Injection now begins at slightly < 10 psi, and under a pull in 4th, the EGT gets to about 650C, before dropping to about 590C. The power has improved also, so it is a move in the right direction.
I will give it another day, but I might try a lower set point to find the best pressure at which the water turns on.
I also took a video for you guys of the EGT and boost gauge, and will post it soon.
(08-17-2010, 06:10 PM)ForcedInduction The methanol must be counteracting the water, my EGTs don't drop even a tiny bit when its activated.
DervTuning
08-19-2010, 10:37 AM #93It is from both
Also, thanks for the additional compliments
(08-17-2010, 02:33 PM)gsxr Another question from the peanut gallery... you mentioned increased boost on the second dyno run. Was that the result of changing the wastegate setting to open at higher pressure, or was it a result of supplying more fuel via the increased governor/limiter adjustment? Maybe both?
I wonder about the interaction also. There are also numerous other factors that should be considered that contribute to the behavior of the EGT and engine, such as the volume of water injected, turbo size, lack of intercooler, charge pressure, etc.
Since the water injection was working better than expected with the MW pump, I changed the set pressure at which it was activated. Injection now begins at slightly < 10 psi, and under a pull in 4th, the EGT gets to about 650C, before dropping to about 590C. The power has improved also, so it is a move in the right direction.
I will give it another day, but I might try a lower set point to find the best pressure at which the water turns on.
I also took a video for you guys of the EGT and boost gauge, and will post it soon.
(08-17-2010, 06:10 PM)ForcedInduction The methanol must be counteracting the water, my EGTs don't drop even a tiny bit when its activated.
(05-12-2010, 10:20 AM)DervTuning The super pump lives! For further testing of the bench settings on the pump, it is highly desirable to fit the pump to an engine to get dynamic qualitative, and quantitative feedback. The goal is to have a perfectly setup pump, with optimal delivery and response characteristics. This ensures that once the customer gets the pump, it is simply a plug and play situation. All fun, and no problems!David
Therefore, I installed the super pump onto the engine in the 85 w123 that is running an authentic Garrett, basically full T4 turbo (compressor and turbine wheels, with a t3 inlet on the turbine housing), a 3" diameter downpipe, and water injection, for an evaluation of idle response, as well as other key parameters for performance. This is in the case that something needs attention, the pump can be fitted back to the bench for adjustments before being shipped out.
The results are in; the engine has never idled so well! Totally smooth, and driving at low speeds, the tip in response was excellent, with no issues with surging or other strange effects. Immediately, the effect of more fuel delivery, as well as faster delivery was observed, whilst driving a usual route.
Subsequently, merging onto the freeway, a wholly different beast was unleashed under the hood, with power like never before. Before I knew it, I was just over the speed I normally would drive at, just an ultra smooth flow of power coupled with fine sounds as the turbo responded. Very, very impressive! After a quick systems check, and a clear space in front of me, the transmission was placed into 3rd @ 65mph, yielding near 4K rpms and the throttle depressed; instantly, the boost shot up to ~30psi, as well as the EGTs which stabilized as the boost kicked in, and then wheelspin occurred! Incredible! This is not a small turbo either, but I've never seen it respond so well compared to other platforms I've tried the same turbo in (gas engines).
It should be noted that prior to the super pump install, with the stock MW adjusted to it's maximum, I was getting ~10 psi max.
I will be able to resume testing later in the day, and if everything goes as well as it has, the super pump will be shipped out straightaway!
How much to tune and install 7.5 elements with a M pump supplied?
Walton Chang/zhangwalton@yahoo.com
walton chang
08-19-2010, 10:24 PM #94(05-12-2010, 10:20 AM)DervTuning The super pump lives! For further testing of the bench settings on the pump, it is highly desirable to fit the pump to an engine to get dynamic qualitative, and quantitative feedback. The goal is to have a perfectly setup pump, with optimal delivery and response characteristics. This ensures that once the customer gets the pump, it is simply a plug and play situation. All fun, and no problems!David
Therefore, I installed the super pump onto the engine in the 85 w123 that is running an authentic Garrett, basically full T4 turbo (compressor and turbine wheels, with a t3 inlet on the turbine housing), a 3" diameter downpipe, and water injection, for an evaluation of idle response, as well as other key parameters for performance. This is in the case that something needs attention, the pump can be fitted back to the bench for adjustments before being shipped out.
The results are in; the engine has never idled so well! Totally smooth, and driving at low speeds, the tip in response was excellent, with no issues with surging or other strange effects. Immediately, the effect of more fuel delivery, as well as faster delivery was observed, whilst driving a usual route.
Subsequently, merging onto the freeway, a wholly different beast was unleashed under the hood, with power like never before. Before I knew it, I was just over the speed I normally would drive at, just an ultra smooth flow of power coupled with fine sounds as the turbo responded. Very, very impressive! After a quick systems check, and a clear space in front of me, the transmission was placed into 3rd @ 65mph, yielding near 4K rpms and the throttle depressed; instantly, the boost shot up to ~30psi, as well as the EGTs which stabilized as the boost kicked in, and then wheelspin occurred! Incredible! This is not a small turbo either, but I've never seen it respond so well compared to other platforms I've tried the same turbo in (gas engines).
It should be noted that prior to the super pump install, with the stock MW adjusted to it's maximum, I was getting ~10 psi max.
I will be able to resume testing later in the day, and if everything goes as well as it has, the super pump will be shipped out straightaway!
How much to tune and install 7.5 elements with a M pump supplied?
Walton Chang/zhangwalton@yahoo.com
I lowered the set point that starts the water injection, with better results.
Here is a video that shows the interaction of the water injection and EGT gauge behavior:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XX_BfGD3kE
DervTuning
08-20-2010, 10:48 AM #95Walton, PM on the way.
I lowered the set point that starts the water injection, with better results.
Here is a video that shows the interaction of the water injection and EGT gauge behavior:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XX_BfGD3kE
George3soccer
08-23-2010, 10:54 AM #96thats some great stuff there. I should be back from poland thrusday, will send a PM your way about my progress and what I need from you hahaha
(07-24-2010, 05:00 PM)TymbrymiYep. Here is couple cars fueling now. about 180-190mm3, but with 8mm pumps that gan give max 225mm3.(07-24-2010, 05:30 AM)Alastair E Then again, I think with 7.5mm we will run out of air/engine capabilities--even with a mega tuned 606/605 with the biggest darn turbo you could fit, before this point in the delivery curve....
I dunno about that!
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(07-24-2010, 05:00 PM)TymbrymiYep. Here is couple cars fueling now. about 180-190mm3, but with 8mm pumps that gan give max 225mm3.(07-24-2010, 05:30 AM)Alastair E Then again, I think with 7.5mm we will run out of air/engine capabilities--even with a mega tuned 606/605 with the biggest darn turbo you could fit, before this point in the delivery curve....
I dunno about that!
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
jonbobshinigin
11-02-2010, 09:55 PM #99Bump - Anyone heard anything from Derv or any kind of update?
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