7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine
7,5 mm Element design for high performance engine
You made one 603 pump to Estonia for om606 if you remember.
I have few problems with that...
First of all,pump was leaking oil and diesel but I fix those problems,no big deal.
But big knock at idle,black smoke at idle,if I start the car then the knock is really big and smoking like hell,not all cilinders start at time,idle is 1000rpm and bit rough.
At 220km/h I can switch 4 gear and boost is 2,3bar(never tryed 5 gear yet,its seems bit scary with that old SEC
),there is no lack of power but its still smoking badly... Last time speed was 250km/h and it has still loads of power....Pump is 20 degrees right now and max EGT 760-780¨c
Any ideas?
Hi,
You made one 603 pump to Estonia for om606 if you remember.
I have few problems with that...
First of all,pump was leaking oil and diesel but I fix those problems,no big deal.
But big knock at idle,black smoke at idle,if I start the car then the knock is really big and smoking like hell,not all cilinders start at time,idle is 1000rpm and bit rough.
At 220km/h I can switch 4 gear and boost is 2,3bar(never tryed 5 gear yet,its seems bit scary with that old SEC ),there is no lack of power but its still smoking badly... Last time speed was 250km/h and it has still loads of power....
Pump is 20 degrees right now and max EGT 760-780¨c
Any ideas?
(07-17-2012, 08:35 AM)_siim_ Hi,
You made one 603 pump to Estonia for om606 if you remember.
I have few problems with that...
First of all,pump was leaking oil and diesel but I fix those problems,no big deal.
But big knock at idle,black smoke at idle,if I start the car then the knock is really big and smoking like hell,not all cilinders start at time,idle is 1000rpm and bit rough.
At 220km/h I can switch 4 gear and boost is 2,3bar(never tryed 5 gear yet,its seems bit scary with that old SEC
Pump is 20 degrees right now and max EGT 760-780¨c
Any ideas?
Hi Yes I have a Idea, you are totally wrong in your timing of the pump.
Oil & fuel leak?????
The pump should be timed 15 degrees After TDC, By your explanation I guess that you have timed the pump on the wrong stroke.
N0 1 cyl at TDC, Both inlet & exhaust valve is closed, ( #6 is rocking), sen engine to 15 ATDC, Lock the pump with timing tool in governor and put pump in.
My pumps are all set to 15degrees offset on the timing flange, this is so you can use original timing proceedure.
Check & come back.
(07-17-2012, 12:03 AM)W126Lover So dieselmeken how are the elements coming along?
For the moment , nothing, however I have made contact with Fratelli Bosio in Italy and they are looking at this for the moment.
After vacation I will make a small serie, that is I take serie 1 and try to adjust the helix angle so it will be at bit sharper than today. If that turns out well I can adjust them with help from my local workshop that has the proper grinding machine.
Update will come, but for the moment Its vacation.
dieselmeken
07-17-2012, 01:03 PM #152(07-17-2012, 08:35 AM)_siim_ Hi,
You made one 603 pump to Estonia for om606 if you remember.
I have few problems with that...
First of all,pump was leaking oil and diesel but I fix those problems,no big deal.
But big knock at idle,black smoke at idle,if I start the car then the knock is really big and smoking like hell,not all cilinders start at time,idle is 1000rpm and bit rough.
At 220km/h I can switch 4 gear and boost is 2,3bar(never tryed 5 gear yet,its seems bit scary with that old SEC
Pump is 20 degrees right now and max EGT 760-780¨c
Any ideas?
Hi Yes I have a Idea, you are totally wrong in your timing of the pump.
Oil & fuel leak?????
The pump should be timed 15 degrees After TDC, By your explanation I guess that you have timed the pump on the wrong stroke.
N0 1 cyl at TDC, Both inlet & exhaust valve is closed, ( #6 is rocking), sen engine to 15 ATDC, Lock the pump with timing tool in governor and put pump in.
My pumps are all set to 15degrees offset on the timing flange, this is so you can use original timing proceedure.
Check & come back.
(07-17-2012, 12:03 AM)W126Lover So dieselmeken how are the elements coming along?
For the moment , nothing, however I have made contact with Fratelli Bosio in Italy and they are looking at this for the moment.
After vacation I will make a small serie, that is I take serie 1 and try to adjust the helix angle so it will be at bit sharper than today. If that turns out well I can adjust them with help from my local workshop that has the proper grinding machine.
Update will come, but for the moment Its vacation.
I wouldn't mind getting an STD..
Spaceraver
07-18-2012, 01:42 PM #153Oh I would love to have some of your elements in my pump.. But for 250 HP/3 50nm would they be needed? Or would it be enough to pay you a visit sometime over winter? IF I get it running by that time.
I wouldn't mind getting an STD..
(07-17-2012, 08:35 AM)_siim_ idle is 1000rpm and bit rough.
The pump should be timed 15 degrees After TDC
Hi,
why 1000/min idle??
Next: 15 deg A TDC is about 24 deg before TDC physically start of injection.
Why not retarded to physically 15 deg before TDC or even later?
The shorter duration will allow it and it is less stress for the engine, also way more smoother.
Tom
(07-17-2012, 08:35 AM)_siim_ idle is 1000rpm and bit rough.
The pump should be timed 15 degrees After TDC
Hi,
why 1000/min idle??
Next: 15 deg A TDC is about 24 deg before TDC physically start of injection.
Why not retarded to physically 15 deg before TDC or even later?
The shorter duration will allow it and it is less stress for the engine, also way more smoother.
Tom
(07-19-2012, 06:05 AM)tomnik(07-17-2012, 08:35 AM)_siim_ idle is 1000rpm and bit rough.
The pump should be timed 15 degrees After TDC
Hi,
why 1000/min idle??
Next: 15 deg A TDC is about 24 deg before TDC physically start of injection.
Why not retarded to physically 15 deg before TDC or even later?
The shorter duration will allow it and it is less stress for the engine, also way more smoother.
Tom
Tom, Obviosly the timing is totally wrong on this engine, that is chrystal clear. Think its your opinion also.
I think he must have at least 1000 rpm on low idle to get it running.
One other theori is that the throttle shaft not goes back to zero in the car, that is quite common as a mounting fault and comes from the adjustment of the governor, I have to back off the throttle stop some turns to get it down safe without afterrewing
My superpumps comes with a low idle at 650-700 rpm
0,5-0,75 degree offset in phasing as max.
Timing should be 15 ATDC when putting pump into engine, I set the timing wing in the governor with a 15 degree offset, and if you do your math then you see that timing is 15 BTDC when running at load.
Also I have a retard notch that gets 3-4 degrees later ignition under 9 mm of racktravel, then at low idle the engine goes at 12-13 BDTC and runs very smooth and nice.
That is if they are mounted properly.
(07-18-2012, 01:42 PM)Spaceraver Oh I would love to have some of your elements in my pump.. But for 250 HP/3 50nm would they be needed? Or would it be enough to pay you a visit sometime over winter? IF I get it running by that time.
You are welcome to visit my workshop. maybee 6 mm will get you there, but as always, shorter duration comes with bigger elements.
I have done a few 6 mm pumps to Denmark and they are running well according to the customers. If you wish I can give you some e.mailadress to Danish people with 6 mm pumps, pm or e-mail me if so / Göran
dieselmeken
07-19-2012, 12:12 PM #155(07-19-2012, 06:05 AM)tomnik(07-17-2012, 08:35 AM)_siim_ idle is 1000rpm and bit rough.
The pump should be timed 15 degrees After TDC
Hi,
why 1000/min idle??
Next: 15 deg A TDC is about 24 deg before TDC physically start of injection.
Why not retarded to physically 15 deg before TDC or even later?
The shorter duration will allow it and it is less stress for the engine, also way more smoother.
Tom
Tom, Obviosly the timing is totally wrong on this engine, that is chrystal clear. Think its your opinion also.
I think he must have at least 1000 rpm on low idle to get it running.
One other theori is that the throttle shaft not goes back to zero in the car, that is quite common as a mounting fault and comes from the adjustment of the governor, I have to back off the throttle stop some turns to get it down safe without afterrewing
My superpumps comes with a low idle at 650-700 rpm
0,5-0,75 degree offset in phasing as max.
Timing should be 15 ATDC when putting pump into engine, I set the timing wing in the governor with a 15 degree offset, and if you do your math then you see that timing is 15 BTDC when running at load.
Also I have a retard notch that gets 3-4 degrees later ignition under 9 mm of racktravel, then at low idle the engine goes at 12-13 BDTC and runs very smooth and nice.
That is if they are mounted properly.
(07-18-2012, 01:42 PM)Spaceraver Oh I would love to have some of your elements in my pump.. But for 250 HP/3 50nm would they be needed? Or would it be enough to pay you a visit sometime over winter? IF I get it running by that time.
You are welcome to visit my workshop. maybee 6 mm will get you there, but as always, shorter duration comes with bigger elements.
I have done a few 6 mm pumps to Denmark and they are running well according to the customers. If you wish I can give you some e.mailadress to Danish people with 6 mm pumps, pm or e-mail me if so / Göran
(07-19-2012, 06:05 AM)tomnik(07-17-2012, 08:35 AM)_siim_ idle is 1000rpm and bit rough.
The pump should be timed 15 degrees After TDC
Hi,
why 1000/min idle??
Next: 15 deg A TDC is about 24 deg before TDC physically start of injection.
Why not retarded to physically 15 deg before TDC or even later?
The shorter duration will allow it and it is less stress for the engine, also way more smoother.
Tom
Yes Tom....You are correct about 15 degrees ATDC being 24 degrees BTDC when coming from the Mercedes factory. I had a case years ago where a Bremen 410D van was dropped to my workshop after spending three weeks in a Mercedes dealership where they failed to get it running. It transpired that someone had upset the 'indicator arm' in the governor and they were timing the engine at around 100 degrees BTDC. I ended up spill timing it at 24 degrees BTDC(the same as the OM61x's) and it ran perfectly. The van owner subsequently reported back a few weeks later claiming it had never performed like that from new.
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
Riverstick
07-19-2012, 12:53 PM #156(07-19-2012, 06:05 AM)tomnik(07-17-2012, 08:35 AM)_siim_ idle is 1000rpm and bit rough.
The pump should be timed 15 degrees After TDC
Hi,
why 1000/min idle??
Next: 15 deg A TDC is about 24 deg before TDC physically start of injection.
Why not retarded to physically 15 deg before TDC or even later?
The shorter duration will allow it and it is less stress for the engine, also way more smoother.
Tom
Yes Tom....You are correct about 15 degrees ATDC being 24 degrees BTDC when coming from the Mercedes factory. I had a case years ago where a Bremen 410D van was dropped to my workshop after spending three weeks in a Mercedes dealership where they failed to get it running. It transpired that someone had upset the 'indicator arm' in the governor and they were timing the engine at around 100 degrees BTDC. I ended up spill timing it at 24 degrees BTDC(the same as the OM61x's) and it ran perfectly. The van owner subsequently reported back a few weeks later claiming it had never performed like that from new.
" It is far easier to get forgiveness rather than permission"
(07-19-2012, 12:12 PM)dieselmeken I set the timing wing in the governor with a 15 degree offset, and if you do your math then you see that timing is 15 BTDC when running at load.
Hi Göran,
did not read that you give an offset. 15 deg BTDC for start of injection is also what turns out to be best for me.
Tom
(07-19-2012, 12:12 PM)dieselmeken I set the timing wing in the governor with a 15 degree offset, and if you do your math then you see that timing is 15 BTDC when running at load.
Hi Göran,
did not read that you give an offset. 15 deg BTDC for start of injection is also what turns out to be best for me.
Tom
I have one of Goran's modified M pumps. Does one use Turbo 135 BAR injectors or Non-Turbo 115 BAR injectors ? Getting ready for some mechanical work. Thanks.
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
Quick question.
I have one of Goran's modified M pumps. Does one use Turbo 135 BAR injectors or Non-Turbo 115 BAR injectors ? Getting ready for some mechanical work. Thanks.
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
I made better experience with 135 bar instead of 115 bar.
Less smoke at idle and under load and better mpg.
> 150 bar is harder to set up well balanced and to me it seems that there are no benefits.
240/ nozzles and timing 15 deg BTDC (checked dynamically).
Tom
Hi,
I made better experience with 135 bar instead of 115 bar.
Less smoke at idle and under load and better mpg.
> 150 bar is harder to set up well balanced and to me it seems that there are no benefits.
240/ nozzles and timing 15 deg BTDC (checked dynamically).
Tom
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
500 BAR would be around 7,250 PSI. Is that possible .... ?
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
(07-20-2012, 09:38 AM)Turbo Would you get better atomisation by rising the pressure say 500bar by using Bosch P pump, and would it be possible with the nozzle?
in theory yes.
But it would be interesting to monitor the pressure waves in the lines and if possible also to monitor the pintle if there are vibrations or similar strange things. I personally went up to 200 bar but it seems that everything gets more sensible, meaning small tolerances in individual timing and delivery increase noticeably. And I could not see any benefit (smoke, mpg, power,..).
Not speaking of the rough running.
Being that far off the range you have to rethink each single component.
Tom
(larger elements will provide a better atomisation by moving fuel faster compared to stock, no need to go further)
(07-20-2012, 09:38 AM)Turbo Would you get better atomisation by rising the pressure say 500bar by using Bosch P pump, and would it be possible with the nozzle?
in theory yes.
But it would be interesting to monitor the pressure waves in the lines and if possible also to monitor the pintle if there are vibrations or similar strange things. I personally went up to 200 bar but it seems that everything gets more sensible, meaning small tolerances in individual timing and delivery increase noticeably. And I could not see any benefit (smoke, mpg, power,..).
Not speaking of the rough running.
Being that far off the range you have to rethink each single component.
Tom
(larger elements will provide a better atomisation by moving fuel faster compared to stock, no need to go further)
MY concern is that it is hard to get a good burning in the beginning without getting it to sound like a stone crusher if your are going to put in a large amount of fuel. In common rail system I have understand it like you put in a little amount of fuel first to get the temperature up, then you can put in the main injection and the burn start at once with much more even combustion and the derivative of the pressure rise is much less, right?
So if I understand you correct in theory yes but in practical it get easy complicated. Do you think a p pump is something to try out? Plungers in pump 11mm for om606.962
MY concern is that it is hard to get a good burning in the beginning without getting it to sound like a stone crusher if your are going to put in a large amount of fuel. In common rail system I have understand it like you put in a little amount of fuel first to get the temperature up, then you can put in the main injection and the burn start at once with much more even combustion and the derivative of the pressure rise is much less, right?
We have the pre chambers to smooth the pressure rise and pre-spray nozzles like the old style 240/. On top you should retard timing with larger elements. My engine runs smoother than a stock timed untouched engine but way more power and no smoke.
I don't see the need of changing the pump type for even bigger elements.
Tom
(07-20-2012, 02:53 PM)Turbo So if I understand you correct in theory yes but in practical it get easy complicated. Do you think a p pump is something to try out? Plungers in pump 11mm for om606.962
MY concern is that it is hard to get a good burning in the beginning without getting it to sound like a stone crusher if your are going to put in a large amount of fuel. In common rail system I have understand it like you put in a little amount of fuel first to get the temperature up, then you can put in the main injection and the burn start at once with much more even combustion and the derivative of the pressure rise is much less, right?
Correct about the common rail, multiple injection provides a smooth pressure development in the cylinder.
We have the pre chambers to smooth the pressure rise and pre-spray nozzles like the old style 240/. On top you should retard timing with larger elements. My engine runs smoother than a stock timed untouched engine but way more power and no smoke.
I don't see the need of changing the pump type for even bigger elements.
Tom
(07-20-2012, 02:53 PM)Turbo So if I understand you correct in theory yes but in practical it get easy complicated. Do you think a p pump is something to try out? Plungers in pump 11mm for om606.962
MY concern is that it is hard to get a good burning in the beginning without getting it to sound like a stone crusher if your are going to put in a large amount of fuel. In common rail system I have understand it like you put in a little amount of fuel first to get the temperature up, then you can put in the main injection and the burn start at once with much more even combustion and the derivative of the pressure rise is much less, right?
(07-21-2012, 03:53 AM)Turbo what do you think about to change the pre chamber to some ceramic compound to make it more isolated to substantially lower the heat losses to the head?
the first thing to do with the pre chambers is to increase the bores, there are some posts with good results.
I am not sure where the benefits are of isolating the pre chambers on a tuned engine. I even could imagine that it will get too hot in the pc (whatever this will mean).
On top the cost of you idea is not in relation to just test what effect this has.
Tom
(07-21-2012, 03:53 AM)Turbo what do you think about to change the pre chamber to some ceramic compound to make it more isolated to substantially lower the heat losses to the head?
the first thing to do with the pre chambers is to increase the bores, there are some posts with good results.
I am not sure where the benefits are of isolating the pre chambers on a tuned engine. I even could imagine that it will get too hot in the pc (whatever this will mean).
On top the cost of you idea is not in relation to just test what effect this has.
Tom
This tread would not be the same without input from tomnik and the others that are into this.
There are more to elements than just putting in some bigger ones, and off you go. Sure, those videos with the "crazy finns" are amusing, but my car goes 2000 miles every year, and I am not looking for donuts, drag racing, lots of smoke, or 500 hp.
I am looking for better response, less consumption, more torque at the bottom, and a little more power, without having to change all other components in the drive train. I'd probably be happy with 200(+?) hp.
I will have some one redo my pump "some day", but at the present, there are too many other projects going. For now, I enjoy reading about it, and hopefully, I can find some one that gives me what I want.
It would be nice to know what the different suppliers want when they redo the pumps. What are your primary goal, what preferences are most important to you?
Are the different supliers of elements really competitors?
This tread would not be the same without input from tomnik and the others that are into this.
There are more to elements than just putting in some bigger ones, and off you go. Sure, those videos with the "crazy finns" are amusing, but my car goes 2000 miles every year, and I am not looking for donuts, drag racing, lots of smoke, or 500 hp.
I am looking for better response, less consumption, more torque at the bottom, and a little more power, without having to change all other components in the drive train. I'd probably be happy with 200(+?) hp.
I will have some one redo my pump "some day", but at the present, there are too many other projects going. For now, I enjoy reading about it, and hopefully, I can find some one that gives me what I want.
It would be nice to know what the different suppliers want when they redo the pumps. What are your primary goal, what preferences are most important to you?
Input is important from anyone, Tom has a great experience in this and I listen to him when it comes to technic, duration etc, from the beginning i was of another perception, thinking it was the amount of fuel and nothing else that matters. That was wrong, but the thing that is marketed on the internet sites is ccm, Myna goes 170cc, Herlevi 225cc etc, Why do your pumps "only" give 140ccm?
Anyway, now I take my serie 1 to a new level, This week a set of 4 plungers will bee grinded so that the helixangle goes up to 50degrees, that is nearly the same as the stock 6 mm boschplungers.
I have a small project that includes a VW 1,9TDI engine, that for the moment have a Valmet A-serie pump with 9,5mm plungers and a RSV governor with a really light weigt in, it goes really bad under 5000 rpm, but after that it starts to go OK, problem is that the pump is seizing one one cylinder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0s-EEeZnFes
Listen in the end when it seize.
Therefore I have a OM616pump that are going to get 7,5mm, 50 degree helix plunger in and we will se if it works out well.
I come back with some result later on /Göran
dieselmeken
08-06-2012, 01:04 PM #168I dont see myself as a competitor with anyone, I just got some request on superpumps, and that what when it started for me. The topic is about how difficult it is to design, produce & test out a element for this kind of "outside the box" pumps.
Input is important from anyone, Tom has a great experience in this and I listen to him when it comes to technic, duration etc, from the beginning i was of another perception, thinking it was the amount of fuel and nothing else that matters. That was wrong, but the thing that is marketed on the internet sites is ccm, Myna goes 170cc, Herlevi 225cc etc, Why do your pumps "only" give 140ccm?
Anyway, now I take my serie 1 to a new level, This week a set of 4 plungers will bee grinded so that the helixangle goes up to 50degrees, that is nearly the same as the stock 6 mm boschplungers.
I have a small project that includes a VW 1,9TDI engine, that for the moment have a Valmet A-serie pump with 9,5mm plungers and a RSV governor with a really light weigt in, it goes really bad under 5000 rpm, but after that it starts to go OK, problem is that the pump is seizing one one cylinder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0s-EEeZnFes
Listen in the end when it seize.
Therefore I have a OM616pump that are going to get 7,5mm, 50 degree helix plunger in and we will se if it works out well.
I come back with some result later on /Göran
As far as I can understand, there is a lot to gain on just having the pump done, without the need of changing the turbo, installing intercooler, bigger exhaust, etc.
I am planning to keep my 1992 300 TD Turbo (om603 turbo) "for ever", and I hope to be able to have the pump redone "soon".
I think there is a great potential in the OM601/2/3 engines. Not only for huge output and lots of black smoke, but also for optimization and better driveability.
As far as I can understand, there is a lot to gain on just having the pump done, without the need of changing the turbo, installing intercooler, bigger exhaust, etc.
I am planning to keep my 1992 300 TD Turbo (om603 turbo) "for ever", and I hope to be able to have the pump redone "soon".
so what i say is that my engine is needing every drop of fuel to make that kind of power. doesnt give a hint of smoke over 2,5 bar. so i wounder if 140cc really is enough for high output above 600hp? if so am i seriousely having to small transfer pump if my 220cc IP doesn´t give more then 140cc now.
how much pressure to the IP does you GÖRAN think is good? mynä and jeemu told me 1bar atleast.
and is there any benyfits in having higher pressure like 5 bar or so? shouldn´t it giva a little faster injection due to the already high pressure of the fuel as it enters the element?
mvh Didrik
dieselmerc
08-07-2012, 12:52 PM #172I don´t know how much this aboat "the fuel amount isn´t important" that is true? to some point yes, but as i have seen on my w123 with om606 and compound turbo, i ran 8mm approx 220cc mynä with aboat 90% rack travel and it gave aboat 450 hp and did not not respond to increased boost, then i gave it full rack travel and it now gives 550hp but stops responding to moore boost than 3,2 bar, so i measured the fuel pressure now and it dropped below 0,4 bar on full throttle. i am using a holley blue carburetor pump on original fuel lines with just a high flow filter. i will change fuel lines to 10mm now to see if it holds above 1 bar outherwise i need bigger transfer pump.
so what i say is that my engine is needing every drop of fuel to make that kind of power. doesnt give a hint of smoke over 2,5 bar. so i wounder if 140cc really is enough for high output above 600hp? if so am i seriousely having to small transfer pump if my 220cc IP doesn´t give more then 140cc now.
how much pressure to the IP does you GÖRAN think is good? mynä and jeemu told me 1bar atleast.
and is there any benyfits in having higher pressure like 5 bar or so? shouldn´t it giva a little faster injection due to the already high pressure of the fuel as it enters the element?
mvh Didrik
(08-07-2012, 05:34 PM)mantahead hi,no compression lowerd, is not the way to go! but for only dragstrip it would MAYBYE be better to lower compression to lower the "pump losses" or what the english word is. lowering compression is only for petrol engines who can "knock" pre ignite.
have you lowered your compression ratio, what is done to the engine and have you measured back pressure?
back pressure is aboat 1 bar over boost pressure so its not that high. maybye a bit i high if i where having sharper cams but with stock its OK.
just ported to smooth out the turns, no big job done. and a home made exhaust manifold and a larger plenum chamber for the intake
dieselmerc
08-08-2012, 10:16 AM #174(08-07-2012, 05:34 PM)mantahead hi,no compression lowerd, is not the way to go! but for only dragstrip it would MAYBYE be better to lower compression to lower the "pump losses" or what the english word is. lowering compression is only for petrol engines who can "knock" pre ignite.
have you lowered your compression ratio, what is done to the engine and have you measured back pressure?
back pressure is aboat 1 bar over boost pressure so its not that high. maybye a bit i high if i where having sharper cams but with stock its OK.
just ported to smooth out the turns, no big job done. and a home made exhaust manifold and a larger plenum chamber for the intake
can be a thing to do
you mean that you didn´t earn anything on it? what fuel pump and fuel lines do you have?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T6Y_75n0_A&feature=plcp and if you enter that chanel there is a few more, exhaust was leaking betwen the flange there so that why it so laggy
20btdc as mynä recommend
i know a few things to do to get more power but with stock parts i should get over 600hp on 4 bar boost! and a thing to think aboat is that it´s NEVER the boost pressure that brakes the head gasket.... its the power! imagine how much bigger the pressure in the cylinder is during combustion....
dieselmerc
08-08-2012, 11:08 AM #176yes but you get used to it and then its boring, whant moore
can be a thing to do
you mean that you didn´t earn anything on it? what fuel pump and fuel lines do you have?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T6Y_75n0_A&feature=plcp and if you enter that chanel there is a few more, exhaust was leaking betwen the flange there so that why it so laggy
20btdc as mynä recommend
i know a few things to do to get more power but with stock parts i should get over 600hp on 4 bar boost! and a thing to think aboat is that it´s NEVER the boost pressure that brakes the head gasket.... its the power! imagine how much bigger the pressure in the cylinder is during combustion....
You dont gain anything by raising the fuelpressure from 1,5-4 bar, its the flow that matters.
Some dynoresult from dieselmerc would bee nice to se.
I have done some testing today with my serie 2 element, 7,5mm 50 degree helix angle, The result was quite nice to see, for now I keep it for myself, Small filmclip will come soon.
I will have a testpilot that can take the OM606 engine up in a dyno so I have some result on my pumps.
The work proceed, I will try to refine my pumps some moore.
8mm is not going to happen from me, that I leave to the Fins. A bit too expensive according to my customers, dont know what Mynä charge for 8mm pumps €1500 or moore??
dieselmeken
08-08-2012, 01:23 PM #177Min 1 bar 1,5 is to bee recomended when driving superpumps. Over 5 bar there is a risk that the rack will stick a bit.
You dont gain anything by raising the fuelpressure from 1,5-4 bar, its the flow that matters.
Some dynoresult from dieselmerc would bee nice to se.
I have done some testing today with my serie 2 element, 7,5mm 50 degree helix angle, The result was quite nice to see, for now I keep it for myself, Small filmclip will come soon.
I will have a testpilot that can take the OM606 engine up in a dyno so I have some result on my pumps.
The work proceed, I will try to refine my pumps some moore.
8mm is not going to happen from me, that I leave to the Fins. A bit too expensive according to my customers, dont know what Mynä charge for 8mm pumps €1500 or moore??
Mynä promice 220cc, Herlevi promise 250CC
8mm is not going to happen from me, that I leave to the Fins. A bit too expensive according to my customers, dont know what Mynä charge for 8mm pumps €1500 or moore??
[/quote]
Mynä takes 1300+VAT Herlevi takes 1300+Vat for pumps with 8mm including new alda
Mynä promice 220cc, Herlevi promise 250CC
8mm is not going to happen from me, that I leave to the Fins. A bit too expensive according to my customers, dont know what Mynä charge for 8mm pumps €1500 or moore??
[/quote]
Dieselmeken what do you think aboat the amount? I have never been able to measure what actual amount i am running but when everytime i have given it more amount of fuel it has given more power? Is it that i am getting seriousely less than expected or is it the big amount that is needed? And can you somehow calculate amount of fuel needed for a certain power? I mean for instant 140cc is max 600hp or so?
dieselmerc
08-08-2012, 03:35 PM #179Mynä takes 1400eur and have been for a while, 1300eur is for 7mm.
Dieselmeken what do you think aboat the amount? I have never been able to measure what actual amount i am running but when everytime i have given it more amount of fuel it has given more power? Is it that i am getting seriousely less than expected or is it the big amount that is needed? And can you somehow calculate amount of fuel needed for a certain power? I mean for instant 140cc is max 600hp or so?
i was using 12mm fuel lines with twin filter housing from a renault truck.
inline pump i'm unsure what its off.
I was having problems with a modified restrictive standard exhaust manifold and only made 385bhp on dyno dynamics rolling road on om605 and hx35.
i just increased fuel pressure incase it was causing problems.
I would check with jeemu as he has alot of experience with compounds but your backpressure sounds high and your boost.
nice roundabout driving.
(08-08-2012, 11:08 AM)dieselmerc yes but you get used to it and then its boring, whant moore
can be a thing to do
you mean that you didn´t earn anything on it? what fuel pump and fuel lines do you have?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T6Y_75n0_A&feature=plcp and if you enter that chanel there is a few more, exhaust was leaking betwen the flange there so that why it so laggy
20btdc as mynä recommend
i know a few things to do to get more power but with stock parts i should get over 600hp on 4 bar boost! and a thing to think aboat is that it´s NEVER the boost pressure that brakes the head gasket.... its the power! imagine how much bigger the pressure in the cylinder is during combustion....
hi,
i was using 12mm fuel lines with twin filter housing from a renault truck.
inline pump i'm unsure what its off.
I was having problems with a modified restrictive standard exhaust manifold and only made 385bhp on dyno dynamics rolling road on om605 and hx35.
i just increased fuel pressure incase it was causing problems.
I would check with jeemu as he has alot of experience with compounds but your backpressure sounds high and your boost.
nice roundabout driving.
(08-08-2012, 11:08 AM)dieselmerc yes but you get used to it and then its boring, whant moore
can be a thing to do
you mean that you didn´t earn anything on it? what fuel pump and fuel lines do you have?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T6Y_75n0_A&feature=plcp and if you enter that chanel there is a few more, exhaust was leaking betwen the flange there so that why it so laggy
20btdc as mynä recommend
i know a few things to do to get more power but with stock parts i should get over 600hp on 4 bar boost! and a thing to think aboat is that it´s NEVER the boost pressure that brakes the head gasket.... its the power! imagine how much bigger the pressure in the cylinder is during combustion....
Göran can the pump maintain that amount up to engine speed to 7000rpm? really looking forward to hear about the duration
Herlevi promise 250cc up to 6000rpm, 7000rpm 200cc
still missing a replay on mynä regading amount at 7000
Göran you wrote before:
-"I have a small project that includes a VW 1,9TDI engine, that for the moment have a Valmet A-serie pump with 9,5mm plungers and a RSV governor with a really light weigt in, it goes really bad under 5000 rpm, but after that it starts to go OK, problem is that the pump is seizing one one cylinder."
why is it so bad under 5000 and do you know cause why it to broke down?
This is interesting
Göran can the pump maintain that amount up to engine speed to 7000rpm? really looking forward to hear about the duration
Herlevi promise 250cc up to 6000rpm, 7000rpm 200cc
still missing a replay on mynä regading amount at 7000
Göran you wrote before:
-"I have a small project that includes a VW 1,9TDI engine, that for the moment have a Valmet A-serie pump with 9,5mm plungers and a RSV governor with a really light weigt in, it goes really bad under 5000 rpm, but after that it starts to go OK, problem is that the pump is seizing one one cylinder."
why is it so bad under 5000 and do you know cause why it to broke down?
Had measured higher fuel pressure, no difference at results.
Fuel lines size is the key and other is original filter leg.
Seems at this summer not got new engine on the road.
Too bad, there is waiting new Herlevi 8mm with 260cc/6800rpm
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
I had 550hp with Myna 8mm and 170cc fueling at 1bar fuel pressure.
Had measured higher fuel pressure, no difference at results.
Fuel lines size is the key and other is original filter leg.
Seems at this summer not got new engine on the road.
Too bad, there is waiting new Herlevi 8mm with 260cc/6800rpm
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
nice amount of juice to! now where talking!
dieselmerc
08-09-2012, 02:06 PM #184nice clip göran! but how much would that engine rev with that pump? full diesel to 6000rpm is good nice amount of juice to! now where talking!
(08-09-2012, 06:51 AM)Turbo This is interesting
Göran can the pump maintain that amount up to engine speed to 7000rpm? really looking forward to hear about the duration
Herlevi promise 250cc up to 6000rpm, 7000rpm 200cc
still missing a replay on mynä regading amount at 7000
Göran you wrote before:
-"I have a small project that includes a VW 1,9TDI engine, that for the moment have a Valmet A-serie pump with 9,5mm plungers and a RSV governor with a really light weigt in, it goes really bad under 5000 rpm, but after that it starts to go OK, problem is that the pump is seizing one one cylinder."
why is it so bad under 5000 and do you know cause why it to broke down?
I will keep on testing and see what I get from the pump at 7000 rpm. The A-serie on the minipuller have a very light governoweight, that makes the "hunting" under 5000 rpm, the RSV governor is for max 2400-2800 rpm in a industrial engine, not suitable for this kind of engine.
I have sent over a 4 cyl 616 pump 7,5mm 200cc for testing.
200cc?? Yes, i did the deliveryvalve job on that one.
My serie 2 looks pretty OK and I think I am the only one that ever have actually showed in a videoclip how my pumps work, and how much fuel they give. I have nothing to hide regarding my pumps, onle the element
If I get 180cc from my 7,5 serie 2 that is enough for me.Next week I will do 2 pumps OM606 with ser2 element, moore info such as duration will come. Maybee a small clip if you guys/girls not are tired of it.
Dieselmerc / Thanks.
Jeemu, why "only" 170 from a 8 mm pump? Did the turbo go flat out or why did it smoke? 550hp is repect!!!
Do you drive Herlevi now, or are you waiting for it?
dieselmeken
08-10-2012, 10:11 AM #185(08-09-2012, 06:51 AM)Turbo This is interesting
Göran can the pump maintain that amount up to engine speed to 7000rpm? really looking forward to hear about the duration
Herlevi promise 250cc up to 6000rpm, 7000rpm 200cc
still missing a replay on mynä regading amount at 7000
Göran you wrote before:
-"I have a small project that includes a VW 1,9TDI engine, that for the moment have a Valmet A-serie pump with 9,5mm plungers and a RSV governor with a really light weigt in, it goes really bad under 5000 rpm, but after that it starts to go OK, problem is that the pump is seizing one one cylinder."
why is it so bad under 5000 and do you know cause why it to broke down?
I will keep on testing and see what I get from the pump at 7000 rpm. The A-serie on the minipuller have a very light governoweight, that makes the "hunting" under 5000 rpm, the RSV governor is for max 2400-2800 rpm in a industrial engine, not suitable for this kind of engine.
I have sent over a 4 cyl 616 pump 7,5mm 200cc for testing.
200cc?? Yes, i did the deliveryvalve job on that one.
My serie 2 looks pretty OK and I think I am the only one that ever have actually showed in a videoclip how my pumps work, and how much fuel they give. I have nothing to hide regarding my pumps, onle the element
If I get 180cc from my 7,5 serie 2 that is enough for me.Next week I will do 2 pumps OM606 with ser2 element, moore info such as duration will come. Maybee a small clip if you guys/girls not are tired of it.
Dieselmerc / Thanks.
Jeemu, why "only" 170 from a 8 mm pump? Did the turbo go flat out or why did it smoke? 550hp is repect!!!
Do you drive Herlevi now, or are you waiting for it?
(08-10-2012, 10:11 AM)dieselmeken Jeemu, why "only" 170 from a 8 mm pump? Did the turbo go flat out or why did it smoke? 550hp is repect!!!Only 550hp pecause 500hp was my goal, what was nice to see at we got more power less rpm s.
Do you drive Herlevi now, or are you waiting for it?
Not drive Herlevi pump yet, it is ready to just bolt on the engine.
Just plans have change, maybe summer 2013 you all hear some news in Finland
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(08-10-2012, 10:11 AM)dieselmeken Jeemu, why "only" 170 from a 8 mm pump? Did the turbo go flat out or why did it smoke? 550hp is repect!!!Only 550hp pecause 500hp was my goal, what was nice to see at we got more power less rpm s.
Do you drive Herlevi now, or are you waiting for it?
Not drive Herlevi pump yet, it is ready to just bolt on the engine.
Just plans have change, maybe summer 2013 you all hear some news in Finland
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
am I said of some Finns by there cat and mouse game OOOOh yes
You wrote
"The A-serie on the minipuller have a very light governoweight, that makes the "hunting" under 5000 rpm, the RSV governor is for max 2400-2800 rpm in a industrial engine, not suitable for this kind of engine."
I have a bosch P pump, can you modify that kind of pump for an om606.962 engine without hunting issue? I need a lot of fuel
Tired of you Göran no way, want more, actually it is really exacting in my opinion and I think a lot of people here thinks the same
am I said of some Finns by there cat and mouse game OOOOh yes
You wrote
"The A-serie on the minipuller have a very light governoweight, that makes the "hunting" under 5000 rpm, the RSV governor is for max 2400-2800 rpm in a industrial engine, not suitable for this kind of engine."
I have a bosch P pump, can you modify that kind of pump for an om606.962 engine without hunting issue? I need a lot of fuel
https://fbcdn-video-a.akamaihd.net/cfs-a...4ca0b3b3fa
Smal video of my car. 8mm herlevi pump, hx40, om606, max rpm 7300:
https://fbcdn-video-a.akamaihd.net/cfs-a...4ca0b3b3fa
Inside car at racetrack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EA7NWSrYB...ata_player
Inside car at racetrack
(08-09-2012, 06:51 AM)Turbo This is interesting
Göran can the pump maintain that amount up to engine speed to 7000rpm? really looking forward to hear about the duration
Herlevi promise 250cc up to 6000rpm, 7000rpm 200cc
still missing a replay on mynä regading amount at 7000
Tomorrow I will test out in a 603 pump, serie 2 7,5mm element. Duration & maxfuel & rpm up to 7000, result will bee posted.
dieselmeken
08-13-2012, 12:41 PM #193(08-09-2012, 06:51 AM)Turbo This is interesting
Göran can the pump maintain that amount up to engine speed to 7000rpm? really looking forward to hear about the duration
Herlevi promise 250cc up to 6000rpm, 7000rpm 200cc
still missing a replay on mynä regading amount at 7000
Tomorrow I will test out in a 603 pump, serie 2 7,5mm element. Duration & maxfuel & rpm up to 7000, result will bee posted.
http://www.misspitlane.com/acr.jpg
http://www.sportsvogn.no/images/2003/ACR/acr.jpg
I've been there too, but "only" with a '84 Corvette.
All numbers in the video is KPH.
The video is from ACR, Arctic Circle Raceway in Norway. An impressive raceway.
http://www.misspitlane.com/acr.jpg
http://www.sportsvogn.no/images/2003/ACR/acr.jpg
I've been there too, but "only" with a '84 Corvette.
All numbers in the video is KPH.
My 300 tdt will again race the track. After that wekeend the engine is going back into my 1977 ce.... Together with a 722.6 and hopefully a eaton m90.
I am looking forward to youre new series elements dieselmekken. I have now tried pp, bsr and helevi-pumps. And a friend of mine is using one of yours series one pumps.
The 8mm pump is the most powerfull and responsive pump. But also the worst to drive. 7 and 7,5mm pumps sems to be very like.
It is a great raceway. And next wekeend it is "sommertreff" again.
My 300 tdt will again race the track. After that wekeend the engine is going back into my 1977 ce.... Together with a 722.6 and hopefully a eaton m90.
I am looking forward to youre new series elements dieselmekken. I have now tried pp, bsr and helevi-pumps. And a friend of mine is using one of yours series one pumps.
The 8mm pump is the most powerfull and responsive pump. But also the worst to drive. 7 and 7,5mm pumps sems to be very like.
(08-13-2012, 03:57 PM)mercemann I am looking forward to youre new series elements dieselmekken. I have now tried pp, bsr and helevi-pumps. And a friend of mine is using one of yours series one pumps..
What do you thing are the pros and cons on the different pumps?
I want mine done too, but I am not doing it to take it to the race track, I just want better response, better milage, and a little more power.
(08-13-2012, 03:57 PM)mercemann I am looking forward to youre new series elements dieselmekken. I have now tried pp, bsr and helevi-pumps. And a friend of mine is using one of yours series one pumps..
What do you thing are the pros and cons on the different pumps?
I want mine done too, but I am not doing it to take it to the race track, I just want better response, better milage, and a little more power.
dieselmerc
08-14-2012, 05:28 AM #198I guess it's like the 8mm mynä, it very very sensitive on the throttle, almost a bit anoying sensitive
Duration,
I dont know if you guys think this is some kind of overkill, but here are the facts on my elements.
I only take a few points here, this is so you can see the difference between the 3 types.
First is 6 mm stock OM606
Second 7,5 serie 1
Third 7,5 serie 2
Speed is 1000 pump rpm.
All degree are pumpdegree, double up for engine degree.
Rack /mm Fuel /cc Degrees
10 40 12
13 60 14,5
16 83 18
19 105 19
---------------------------------
10 72 11,5
13 95 13,5
16 120 15
19 144 17,5
--------------------------------
11 74 13
13 100 15,5
15 121 18
18 150 22
21 182 26
__________________________
As you can see, serie 1 is quicker, at 72cc, it needs 11,5 degree to complete the injection, serie 2 needs 13 degrees for the same amount.
Here is also the answer to why the engine is so difficult to drive, it raise the fuel so fast on so little rack, that makes it sensitive on the throttle.
A small push on the throttle and BAM 100% moore fuel that stock.
Serie 1 is to prefere if you are satisfied with 350-400 bhp, if you need moore fuel, serie 2 or 8 mm is the answer BUT it needs longer time to inject = have to move injectiontime on engine.
Look at 6 mm @105cc, it need 19 degrees compared to no1 that goes on app 14 degrees
dieselmeken
08-14-2012, 08:46 AM #199
Duration,
I dont know if you guys think this is some kind of overkill, but here are the facts on my elements.
I only take a few points here, this is so you can see the difference between the 3 types.
First is 6 mm stock OM606
Second 7,5 serie 1
Third 7,5 serie 2
Speed is 1000 pump rpm.
All degree are pumpdegree, double up for engine degree.
Rack /mm Fuel /cc Degrees
10 40 12
13 60 14,5
16 83 18
19 105 19
---------------------------------
10 72 11,5
13 95 13,5
16 120 15
19 144 17,5
--------------------------------
11 74 13
13 100 15,5
15 121 18
18 150 22
21 182 26
__________________________
As you can see, serie 1 is quicker, at 72cc, it needs 11,5 degree to complete the injection, serie 2 needs 13 degrees for the same amount.
Here is also the answer to why the engine is so difficult to drive, it raise the fuel so fast on so little rack, that makes it sensitive on the throttle.
A small push on the throttle and BAM 100% moore fuel that stock.
Serie 1 is to prefere if you are satisfied with 350-400 bhp, if you need moore fuel, serie 2 or 8 mm is the answer BUT it needs longer time to inject = have to move injectiontime on engine.
Look at 6 mm @105cc, it need 19 degrees compared to no1 that goes on app 14 degrees
(08-13-2012, 03:57 PM)mercemann It is a great raceway. And next wekeend it is "sommertreff" again.
My 300 tdt will again race the track. After that wekeend the engine is going back into my 1977 ce.... Together with a 722.6 and hopefully a eaton m90.
I am looking forward to youre new series elements dieselmekken. I have now tried pp, bsr and helevi-pumps. And a friend of mine is using one of yours series one pumps.
The 8mm pump is the most powerfull and responsive pump. But also the worst to drive. 7 and 7,5mm pumps sems to be very like.
for sure it is not the element diameter that makes the car difficult to drive.
I run SuperFloyd on my stock! 603 turbo and except more power and no turbo lag it behaves like stock.
Wrong calculation, maybe not precise manufacturing and most important the stupid hunt for max delivery at rack positions beyond the designed operation range of the governor this is what makes such pumps at least difficult to drive.
Tom
(08-13-2012, 03:57 PM)mercemann It is a great raceway. And next wekeend it is "sommertreff" again.
My 300 tdt will again race the track. After that wekeend the engine is going back into my 1977 ce.... Together with a 722.6 and hopefully a eaton m90.
I am looking forward to youre new series elements dieselmekken. I have now tried pp, bsr and helevi-pumps. And a friend of mine is using one of yours series one pumps.
The 8mm pump is the most powerfull and responsive pump. But also the worst to drive. 7 and 7,5mm pumps sems to be very like.
for sure it is not the element diameter that makes the car difficult to drive.
I run SuperFloyd on my stock! 603 turbo and except more power and no turbo lag it behaves like stock.
Wrong calculation, maybe not precise manufacturing and most important the stupid hunt for max delivery at rack positions beyond the designed operation range of the governor this is what makes such pumps at least difficult to drive.
Tom
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